BA Moscow London [Archive]

Bumz_Rush

6th Aug 2005, 17:56

I am trying to establish if this route is Europe or World.

I have used it twice recently, both times in Club.

The seat pitch appeared to be rather small. A 757/767 not certain. But very disapointed at the leg room, and also the elbow room, but in future I will try for the centre 2 seats, as these at least have a little extra space.

All in all a very disapointing service.

Bumz

apaddyinuk

6th Aug 2005, 18:05

Its a European route and for such a short flight what more do you need?

Wannabe Flyboy

6th Aug 2005, 18:55

Moscow is indeed European.

The centre seats are the best on the 767. The window pairs have barely any width bonus over economy at all.

DME flight are, almost without exception, fairly miserable. Club loads are high and as such the person effect that the cabin crew try to give wears off.

WHBM

7th Aug 2005, 00:01

It's a Europe config aircraft. If it was World there would be either a First Class section or flat beds in club.

The catering on the Russian routes is however much better than on most Euro routes, especially in Y where hot meals continue. There is also IFE to Moscow unlike other Euro routes and, although it's not advertised to LED, if one of the most recent A320s with IFE fitted is used (which is usually the case) and the video has been left on board then the FAs will often play it.

The convertible C seats in the Euro 767s are indeed disappointing. They change from 2-3-2 in Y to 2-2-2 in C, which as you can probably calculate doesn't give much extra. Best bet is to go on the second DME flight which uses an A320, not a 767, and get a C seat on the left-hand side.

Bumz_Rush

7th Aug 2005, 06:47

WHBM: I was not aware the second flight was a bus...I beleived I was on the second flight, and it was not a bus,but I will check out C LHS...I asume the extra gap exists.

Both flights x DVO, row 2B and 3B. 2 had even worse leg room, being a bulkhead. One from LHR, can not remember seat but LHS again.

Wannabe Flyboy: there is no reference to world/ european on the web site. 4h30 published times..... on the edge of the world...

Apaddyinuk: for the price difference I would expect a seat that reflects the difference.

On the 767 in Club, the Overhead IFE was crap.....the pictures were so colour saturated that they were unviewable, the quality of the tape was unacceptable. (like tracking errors.).

Lastly, and not BA fault was the two kids behind me, with big feet.......

Bumz

delta-golf

8th Aug 2005, 00:48

Bumz,

I fly this route quite frequently. The BA in0flight service is good, but the Europe seat is a scam, especially when you calculate the cost, compared to Club World to destinations further afield.

As I choose on the basis of seat size rather than service, I now use Aeroflot, they use a 310 or 777, with 2-3 classes, and you can fly first class/business class wide seats, lots of leg room, for less than half the price of BA.

The aircrew are very competent, and the service is - Russian...but a lot better than it used to be. You may find though, that the Beluga caviar and Stolychnaya Vodka is to your taste as a snack, and then spend the money you saved on a class restuarant in London or Moscow, when you arrive.

In Asia, almost all routes with SQ/CX/TG etc etc, which are over 1-2 hours are flown in widebodies with 2-3 classes and full service.

However, in the interests of spending their operating income in areas far removed from the aircraft and the pax, BA and other guilty parties in Europe, are stretching the geography a bit. (Maybe another Lord King is needed to reduce the management levels on the ground, and put some of that cash back in the air...he says while donning tin hat and body armour and heading for the fox-hole !!)

A good example is the overnight flight to Almaty (almost same time zone as Bangkok), which is done via Yekaterinburg, and all in all takes about 8 hours. This is a BA/BMed with Euro club seats !!! 6 days a week you can fly LH flatbed to the same destination. It pays to do your research.

Wannabe Flyboy

8th Aug 2005, 10:10

delta-golf - minor point - BMed use the old Club World Cradle seats rather than the Club Europe ones.

It's no flat bed but the pitch and recline and bigger.

purr777

8th Aug 2005, 14:34

I often wonder why DME and its profit potential is ignored. Cairo is a comparable flight time (slightly more) and yet was served by the 747-100/200(1990s), then the 777-200(2001/2), then the 747-400(2003/4) and currently the 777-200. Very much more in tune with the profit the route could make - and DME is a high yield route for BA!
The other noticeable "gap" is the lack of BA flights from Moscow early morning as the current options allow evening travel only.

A 777 could easily fill its J cabins on this route.

WHBM

8th Aug 2005, 14:53

Someone will doubtless have the actual figures, but doesn't the 767 in Euro configuration have pretty much the same capacity as a BA 777, all of which are in Long Haul config ?

DME is indeed a high yield route. The competition with Aeroflot is less than you might think as they operate from SVO, and the two airports are diametrically opposite across Moscow, it takes about 2 hours to get from one to the other, and passengers seem to make their preference more than anything else based on where they are going in Moscow. It's a big city and both airports are far out.

All the Aeroflot A310s and 777s seem to have been returned to the leasing companies now. Aeroflot stick to the A321 for London, supplemented by a few Il-96 flights. There are up to 4 A321s on a Saturday, peak day on the route.

TopBunk

9th Aug 2005, 12:30

Purrrrrrr7777777The other noticeable "gap" is the lack of BA flights from Moscow early morning as the current options allow evening travel only. ....something that BA have been trying to get for many years now.

AFAIK there are issues over security for the aircraft (and crew) on a nightstop that need addressing. Add to that that the Russians don't want to let get go of the highly lucrative ealry morning business traffic and you can begin to see why the progress has been very slow.

There were rumours a few short months ago of a late LHR departure arriving at say 0300 local with a, say, 0700 local return. ie an extended turn around for the aircraft, a 24-hour crew slip - I would guess on the 757/767.

Watch this space......

CargoOne

9th Aug 2005, 13:04

As far as I know BA is fighting for a long time to get an early slot out of Moscow and it is believed that BA have moved from SVO to DME because they have been promised to get the morning slot to LHR out of DME, but it never happend due to strong lobby of SU.

There are no technical problems, both SVO and DME can easily accommodate an extra departure/arrival in the morning, it is pure political/economical grounds. Send now a slot request to slot coordinator for a charter or business jet arrival any time tomorrow morning to SVO and DME and you will get it straight away.

I don't think there are any issues on aircraft/crew safety during overnight stay, Moscow is not Kinshasa or Baghdad...

WHBM

9th Aug 2005, 13:11

The overnight Moscow that Aeroflot operate from Heathrow seems to be popular with Russians who come and visit us, and is often sold out, but very much at the Y class end of things. It's not a long flight but there's a lot of timezone change (3 hours) for the distance, allowing an apparent overnight flight. However when they plan on going straight to work from the flight I wonder how good they feel ..... !

I am sure BA know how to handle landside security, they operate to places a lot more difficult than DME in this respect. Maybe more of a problem would be Russian visas for the nightstop crew, I don't think there is any shortcut for crews, they would all need full Russian multi-entry visas and the rigmarole that goes with that. Any crews of other carriers have experience of this ?

TopBunk

9th Aug 2005, 14:45

Cargo 1
I don't think there are any issues on aircraft/crew safety during overnight stay, Moscow is not Kinshasa or Baghdad...
Sorry to differ. I speak as someone who flies for BA, and that is what I have been told.

DME might not be Kinshasa or Baghdad, but it would require precautions in place for the full duration of the time the aircraft is on the ground - and that IS an issue.

I don't doubt that it is primarily POLITICAL- ie SU don't want to lose J-class traffic on the route, palms will need greasing undoubtedly, and BA are usually very anti that sort of thing. Crew needing Visas etc is just another obstacle that is being put in the way of the route development by Russia.

I dare say if SU lost their nightstopping rights in LHR they might come back to the table to talk!

WHBM

9th Aug 2005, 16:00

SU don't nightstop in Heathrow. Even the 0830 departure to Moscow is a 0730 arrival from Moscow.

Visa regs are not a specific pick at BA but are a nuisance for everyone. Attention is currently focused on Ukraine who recently discarded their old-style visa requirements. The tedious regulations are not new, nor a throwback to the socialist period, they were like that in Czar days ! I wonder what the other nightstop operators at moscow do.

I reckon if the visa controls went (or became straightforward) BA, Aeroflot, and the rest might double their traffic in a year and the Russian economy benefit from huge tourist income.

The British are currently held in high regard in Russia at the moment as a result of the submarine rescue. Time for BA to have another go while the mood is good.

TopBunk

9th Aug 2005, 16:19

WHBM

I didn't know that SU don't n/s LHR - I knew they had an early departure and assumed....

BA (BOAC) used to nightstop SVO en-route to/from Japan. One occasionally hears tales of the hotel conditions (own plug, toilet paper, towel needed etc; hot water/heating/cooling variable at best; madam at end of corridor not to be argued with; etc).

I agree that a relaxation a la Ukraine (relaxion originally for Eurovision, I believe) which has been extended has dramatically shown the benefit of opening up borders. See also India and now China catching on to the benefits.

As to the Russians and gratitude for the sub rescue, I won't hold my breath if you don't mind!

barry lloyd

10th Aug 2005, 11:25

Top Bunk:

The hotel conditions have improved markedly (thank God!) since the arrival of the big hotel chains in Moscow. There is no longer any need to take your own toilet paper, or universal bath plug. The 'babushkas' on each floor no longer exist in Western-run hotels.
As I understand it, one of the main reasons for BA moving to DME was for the better connections (eastwards) from there. The flight timing may also be a factor in this. However, DME is a long way from the centre, and given the extremely heavy traffic in Moscow and its environs, getting into town can be a tedious and lengthy business. There are no hotels in the DME area worthy of the name at present.
On a different note, you mention the old SVO stopover on the TYO-LHR route. I have heard of the 'chandelier incident' which I believe was the inspiration for the 'Only Fools & Horses' episode. I don't want to hijack this thread, but could you please PM if you know anything (or know anyone who knows anything) about this. Iknow it happened, because I've spoken to people who were involved, as I'm doing some research on it, but it's been debunked as an urban myth.

tom de luxe

10th Aug 2005, 17:33

???
DME is by far the most convenient airport for Moscow city centre. There's a dedicated train to Paveletsky station (where you may check-in for most airlines - not for BA I think - on your way to the airport). There's even what must be the ultimate capitalist airport service - a "late counter", where you may check-in if you missed the deadline, for an extra 300 roubles.

No such thing at SVO - it's a loooong slog in a cab, sitting in traffic, or a shorter slog to some outpost of the Moscow Underground. DME's also an overall much more professional and un-soviet experience than SVO.

barry lloyd

10th Aug 2005, 22:25

Tom:

I was referring to the ride into MOW from DME from a crew perspective - not a pax one. Agree with what you say about DME v SVO - Terminal 2 is still locked in the 1970's,and as for Terminal 1...

Bumz_Rush

11th Aug 2005, 07:47

Now has a rail link to Moscow centre Kievskia Main Line Railway station, FREE if travelling to/from Airport.

DME has a VIP welcoming service to wisk you thru customs, into exec lounge and wait for your bags. priority tags still mean nothing.
The departure BA lounge is very good.

The Russian Multi entry Crew Visa is no more problematic, in fact less so that the USA. They dont need AIDS tests either. Unless WORK permit visa requested.

There are NO good hotels near DME, totally agree.

Delta crew night stop, as do Emirates, they stay at the Renaissance up Prospect Mira. This hotel has a great exec floor, with 4 free internet terminals.

I have been working in Cairo recently, and the BA flight from CAI to LON has a real CLUB service, and very similar flight time. I beleive the crew night stop there.

Security in Moscow is not a problem, for the airports or the city.

The hotel situation has changed, yes there are many XXXXX hotels, and many other properties opening, but this summer very problematical to get rooms unless block booked. 600$ plus tax, plus tax being the typical XXXXX rate.

Bumz

Hotel Mode

11th Aug 2005, 10:53

CAI is 50-55 mminutes longer (over 25%) than DME. And the flights are timed for an evening arrival and a morning departure, 9hr turnround. Hence the nightstop. DME is only 10 mins longer than Athens and 40 mins shorter than Larnaca both of which are not full club.

BA long haul crews did used to stay in Moscow on some japanese flights many years ago, so cant imagine crew visas would cause a problem

tom de luxe

11th Aug 2005, 18:46

Agree re no crew hotac near DME, but hey, you gotta loooove that Novotel (or was it a Sofitel?) at SVO. MOW city centre priced, Soviet-Styled throughout. :yuk:
So why not out the crew on that train? There's lots of very decent hotac near Paveletsky station!

CargoOne

11th Aug 2005, 22:12

Moscow is one of the most expensive cities in the world, next to Tokio. However it is not the crew problem, because airline pays it. There are many very good (expensive, but good) hotels in the centre of Moscow. Security issue problem is a pure imagination. Once you have locked the aircraft there will be no suprising visitors. On that matter all Russian airports are quite strict.

There are some major airline crews doing a nightstop in Moscow, and none of them experienced any real problems. Yes most probably you would need a visa for a crew, but it is a very straight forward thing (1 year multi entry, you just need to apply). Or... let me tell you a secret: bizjet crews are receving visas upon arrival, you just need to pay some extra...

no, no, no

12th Aug 2005, 08:54

weren't Virgin or bmi going to start Moscow several years ago? Do you think either of them would start it now? Maybe not high on the list for Virgin with other places in demand, but could it be an option for bmi? either as longhaul or shorthaul? Guess with the demand they would be more likely to throw a 321 on the route, but guess it would be with business class.

Do you think anyone else will compete with SU/BA (and don't Transaero do LGW from DME?). Is the market big enough for additional competition?

WHBM

14th Aug 2005, 20:39

weren't Virgin or bmi going to start Moscow several years ago? Do you think either of them would start it now? Yes, both Virgin and BMI were going to start a few years ago, and even got as far as as producing draft timetables (Virgin on an A340, BMI on an A321). Both seemed to get bogged down in bureaucracy of various types (Heathrow slots, Russian permissions, etc), then 9/11 came along. Would make a good route for one of them. BMI could even use a 321 on an overnight eastbound/early am westbound and do it without an additional aircraft (this were not their proposal some years ago by the way).

When Virgin first started to Tokyo they stopped at SVO as they were only using 747-200s. Wonder if their rights are still valid ?

Bumz_Rush

16th Aug 2005, 11:47

I have just spent the night at the DME hotel, and am recovering in the BA lounge.

NEVER EVER suggest that this is a suitable hotel, for anyone.

I returned to Moscow very late last night, and to save two long drives in busy traffic, I agreed to stay in DME.

As an aside, the BA strike, has had an unusual effect on the DME-LHR service.
The flight is catered ex DME, and yet BA said NO catering on the flight ex DME...they advise hot meal in Lounge.....dep is now in 1 hour......still no sign of any food....

Bumz

Globaliser

16th Aug 2005, 12:39

Bumz_Rush: As an aside, the BA strike, has had an unusual effect on the DME-LHR service.
The flight is catered ex DME, and yet BA said NO catering on the flight ex DMEI suspect the problem is that there's nobody to offload the dead food at LHR.

WHBM

16th Aug 2005, 13:10

It could also be that they have run out of the BA service carts, trays, and other supplies that get washed up/turned around from the outbound London flights.

Bumz:

Could you be a little more specific about the DME hotel deficiencies.

Bumz_Rush

22nd Aug 2005, 17:56

The Hotel is owned by the airport operator, and is a modern building, very close to the airport. The reception staff do not speak much english, and the rest of the staff are worse.

The rooms are modern in concept, but the beds are the traditional russian. a sheet, and pillow are supplied. The heating was on last week...(very hot outside too), but the official Russian heating season must have started early.

The window needed opening to keep the heat down, but Russian aircraft are rather loud.

I arrived early morning so was hoping for a good sleep. The cleaners are very efficient, and very early, and the sound of roll on cases was loud, as I was close to the lift.

At least no hookers asking if I was OK....

The windows were covered with venetian blinds, not very efficient at keeping the light out.

Breakfast is very Russian, and basic...I could not eat 90% of it...

I actually went to the airport to eat....breakfast....then onto the BA...with NO food either....

They do take credit cards.

I trust this is enough to keep you out of this airport hotel.

Bumz

Bumz_Rush

28th Aug 2005, 06:53

Just what do I have to do to get BA to respond to my complaint, take out a CCJ.....perhaps.....
Bumz

Wannabe Flyboy

28th Aug 2005, 07:15

Never email BA, if they do reply it will just be an automated one.

I've always had success in writing a letter though.

Swedish Steve

3rd Sep 2005, 17:47

The European B767 has about 30 more seats than the Longhaul B777, but has an awful lot more Club class seats. About double the number, so if BA went to B777 they would be turning away club class pax all the time

WHBM

5th Oct 2005, 13:11

As to the Russians and gratitude for the sub rescue, I won't hold my breath if you don't mind!
Just to round this story off, think you'll find there was some gratitude for this today after all.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4309340.stm

Well done to all involved, as the RAF were involved we're not completely off-topic.

Jinkster

8th Oct 2005, 10:04

I'm trying to sort out a 3 night break for January! Visa - not really a problem, pay £30 send the form, send the accommodation form supplied by the hotel, some photos and a passport!

I am quite amazed about the cost of the accomodation in Moscow and flights dont seam to be that cheap either!!

Holiday Inn Lesnaya Street http://www.ichotelsgroup.com/h/d/hi/925/en/hd/mowlu?irs=y seems to be quite reasonable, anyone stayed there?

Jinkster

Bumz_Rush

8th Oct 2005, 10:55

and I have not stayed there, but I did have an apartment the other side of the railway, to the north.
Tverskia, a main shopping street, is perhaps 200yds away to the west.
Not too bad an area, and as you say central, to the action, if you are happy to take the metro, from Belorusskaya station, down the green line to Teatralnaya.

At present I am in the Marriott Renaissance hotel, near the Prospect Mira metro.....very close to the armed services museum, with a vast stock of missiles aircraft and tanks. From my window I can see a sam site pointing at me

Enjoy your stay in Moscow, it is a great cuty, the people are fun, and the night life is excellent....(but not cheap.)....

Bumz

Jinkster

8th Oct 2005, 15:22

Armed services musem :D that sounds more like it :D

Dont speak a word of russian - but dont mind catching the metro or walking!! Its all an adventure.

Not really into Ballet or anything but it wondering if it would be worth a visit, any ideas how much it costs?

Think I owe you a beer for all this - ever fancied working for Lonely Planet :ok:

:)

Bumz_Rush

8th Oct 2005, 15:41

There is a flee market at the Izmailovo Park, it is on the metro to the north of the city...best days sat and sun. just follow the croud from the metro, or turn left if they have already vanished....not certain the entry fee, but pence....great place....

Also at the VNNK Metro, is the Soviet Achievement Park, if you go to the VDNK metro, and look for the big statue of the rocket, the space museum is below this monument. Opening normally not before 11am, I think. Has been closed several times I have passed there.
Also slightly further north of the metro, but within sight is the big statue of two peasants gathering in the harvest. Next to this is the northern entry to the Park, and a big mother of a building....Great shopping arcade. This is what they do with the old soviet buildings.
There is another aircraft museum behind the old city airport, on the green metro line., between Dynemo and Airport. There old airport terminal building is still there, and if you walk towards the "air port " ie away from the road, there is an open site of old migs.... extra charge if you have a camera....
As you walk down Tverskia from your hotel towarsd the red sq, on the RHS oposite TGIF, is the revolution museum, very interesting, two old tanks outside.....
Further down on the same side is nNght Flight the original night club, food is excellent, and the girls are to die for....
Lastly there is the Old Arbat, a tourist trap, but very interesting, with kiosks. and the Hard Rock cafe...its your call.
The Bolshoi is closed for two or more years due to "repairs", but the Triumph Concert Hall, at Mykeosca. (spelling), on Tverskia junction of Garden Ring Road, is great pot luck value.
Very close by is the American bar and Grill, and the American Diner, great ex-pat people watching and great H24 food. Recomend the wings, and in the Diner the Onion Ball...the shakes, and coke floats....
Thats all for you, but the hotel should have the tourist guide book in your room, with a map.
Have a great time, and just enjoy.

Bumz

Jinkster

10th Oct 2005, 12:42

Any ideas what is the best way of getting from the Airport SVO to the centre of Moscow (more than likely staying at the Arbat Hotel)?

:)

VHF FLYER

10th Oct 2005, 15:51

easily the best way is by taxi

easily the best kind of taxi is the one that your local contacts have organised to meet you.
Try to insist that this happens. If it's not possible you will have to haggle with the dozens of local taxi drivers who will hussle you as you enter the arrival area. The usual currency is USD expect to pay $50 (they'll ask for about $70-80 initially) but most accept Euros.
Also the guy you haggle with and pay the money is not usually the one that drives you - free market economy unleashed!!
Good luck

Bumz_Rush

11th Oct 2005, 06:26

If you have any local contacts, yes ask them to collect you but SVO is a pig hole, so they must be a very good friend....

A taxi, tout. will as stated ask as much as possible...tell them 50$, and keep walking, and say you need a receipt. I have often used the tout system, and no problem. The cars are OK, and they will be parked perhaps 10 mins walk from the terminal door. Remember the weather, so keep warm for that walk.
The Hyatt, which is the hotel I assume you refered to, is a very nice stylish hotel, very close to the action, of all colours.

Bumz_Rush

18th Oct 2005, 14:07

There is a scam on the streets in Moscow, and two tourists have been hurt, and at least one lost a lot of money.

It involves a person 'dropping" a wad of 100$ bills in the street as you are walking. Man no 1 drops these, along side you, or just in front of you...if you dont pick them up, he will, and looks around to see who might own them. He will ask if they are yours....if you say yes....you are in trouble...if you agree to share your winnings with him you are also in trouble....Man no 1 vanishes, and you have about 500$ in your hand as Man no 2 returns looking worried...and sees you with his money.....where is his1000$....he will insist that you have stolen his money...and demand its return. Man no 1 has vanished, and is keeping watch.

This has happend to me three times in less than three months....Today, I saw the drop, and kicked, ever so slightly the bundle into the very wet gutter, and totally ignored the two men.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have been warned......Bumz

Jinkster

20th Oct 2005, 17:32

Thanks Bumz! :) will be walking very quickly if someone drops a bunch of notes in front of me!

If anyone is still taking notes about my visit. Hotel and flight booked - flying KLM from MAN via AMS to SVO for 2nd Jan to 6th Jan!

Also extremely impressed with the Russian Embassy in London :D sent passport on Friday (14th Oct) and it returned with visa yesterday (19th Oct) - absolutely brilliant as I payed the cheapest amount!

:cool: