"I will give employer $10k" !

[Screwed™]

Todays Australian.
"In return for (multi engine) employment, I will give employer $10,000"
I hope 'John' is reading this and can justify why he's attempting to single handedly f*** the industry for all new pilots seeking employment. (I however doubt any one will take up his offer.)
If you need to pay to get a job, you're probably not worth employing anyway.
It's a sad day for the industry if it needs to come to this.:ugh:

[Lowlevldevl]

And soon.......every new pilot will consider it the norm to cough up the 10K for a job.
What then? 20K?
The money in this industry is a bloody joke anyway. Lets make it worse.

[overpitched]

Look on the bright side. At least it's aplanker and not one of us.
There is a phone number on the add of course so I guess it might be worth a call to tell him what a goose he is !!!!

[wishtobflying]

Being discussed in D & G General Aviation here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=91

[NickLappos]

Once I had to write a check to Sikorsky to cover a travel over-payment. My wife saw the checkbook entry, and said to me, "You dumbass, THEY are supposed to pay YOU!" Very appropriate words here, too!

[A2002flyboy]

I was trying to call this person but always his phone is engaged!

I am wanting to tell him not to do this. It is very very bad for our industry.

[bellfest]

I wouldn't worry about it too much fellas. He is one of a few that feel they can buy there way to the top. Surely companies common sense will prevail. If they aren't smart enough to stop him their insurance companies will. Besides, companies these days are far more enclined to subject their current employees to bonds, training fees etc. despite years of loyal service, overtime and working well and above their call of duty as opposed to old mate here who has obviously on another planet. The truth of the matter is that this poor bloke has already p#$$ed a substantial amount of his mulla up against the wall and it appears, is more than happy to carry on doing so without having any idea about the value of experience. Go and blow it at the casino John. Much better odds!!

[SASless]

Free market capitalism at work here guys....if you want to invest in your future...go for it.

What is the difference in paying for it in cash or signing a training bond and walking off or staying at some ugly place for two years to work off the training bond?

Any employer that would do either, is not a place one would want to work at anyway. If they are that damn cheap...whatelse are they doing in an unprofessional manner?

Imagine the customer's impression when that kind of conduct gets out? I would make sure it gets out too!

If the employer is treating the working stiffs correctly....they are not going to be leaving unless there is a down turn in business....when the downturn happens...the company should be retaining its best performers and letting the lesser capable seek alternative employment.

One man's opinion here.

[High Nr]

Come on you loser’s.

Its interesting to note that most, if not all of you are CPL rather than ATPL.

Its not surprising that you elect to criticise someone who is prepared to invest in his/her future, rather than to get off your asses and make your own future.

You are under achievers.

Whilst I would have suggested he or she invest in more qualifications, such as ATPL, IREX, or Aviation Tertiary Qualification’s, rather than offer a cash bounty!!!...never the less, he or she is showing the initiative that will put that person ahead of that group that sits on their butt’s, and think the world owes them something.

Get real you loser’s.

[rotorwing]

High Nr

You must be in the giddy heights of management with an attitude like you have. Little wonder the industry is so screwed!! I hold ATPL, I do work and I've done some hard yards to get where I am without ever entertaining the notion of having to pay someone to employ me.
Slither back under your rock and do the rest of the industry a huge favour by disappearing up ya own A**!!!

[High Nr]

My case rests.

Read the question and answer mate, then give a logical reply based on what I said. rather than what your circumstances maybe.

Wonder who operates 412's....mmmmm

[spelling correction].

[bladewashout]

It's not so long ago that law graduates had to do 2 years in industry as articled clerks before they could practice. They got a pitiful amount (a couple of grand a year) having potentially already done a 3 year degree course and a law college year (which they had to pay for). There was no way they could live on what they were paid but the firms didn't care.

This was when normal starting salaries were in the 7-10k area for graduates. It was law firms getting free labour from well educated staff. Why doesn't that surprise me!

The law firms believed they were being generous because the older staff (when they were articled clerks) had to do it for free!

Is it avoidable in a job where some people (early in their careers) just want to fly and don't care how they achieve it? They may already have spent 60k or more qualifying - another 10k might seem worth it. They are still dreaming that they will earn it back.

I don't agree with it and I don't think it should be allowed to happen, but unless legislation outlaws it there will always be people with money trying to get a leg up over everyone else.

In the UK they would have to be paid minimum wage when flying, but there's nothing to stop them stumping up 10k as a gift to their employer.

BW

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

From what I see, there are no rules in this game. You gotta be lucky and then even luckier !! You gotta be in the right place at the right time and then the right time at the right place ! Whatever you have to do to get on, then so be it. I hope the guy finds what he's looking for.

TFS

[hemac]

Just be thankful that the 'Casting Couch' doesn't operate in this industry; otherwise we'd all be buggered.

H.

[200psi]

Lets see where the lochart river investigation leads when it comes to wage levels with regard to the responsibilities of a PIC. Perhaps public opinion may deem that 20k isn't sufficient given what is at stake.

If the article clerk crosses a T instead of dotting the I does someone die?

Ignore high Nr he is winding you up

[Whirlygig]

Just be thankful that the 'Casting Couch' doesn't operate in this industry; otherwise we'd all be buggered.
Speak for yourself dahling, speak for yourself :O

Cheers

Whirls

[UwantME2landWHERE!]

I can't see what the problems is........at today's exchange rate $10000 Aus is only worth about 20 quid :)

It would cost you almost as much to buy your prospective new employer a pint in th UK...!:{

[Heli-Ice]

So what did the ad say?

Pilot vacancies.

Stupid Pilots needed.

Must have:

Deep pockets, preferably thick wallets, blond blue eyed, IQ at room temp and be prepared to go brown nose.

1000hr heli time
500 on type

or,

Heli pilot license and,

$20.000

I figured my good looks would do it for me but .......

My thoughts about this kind of business is that if the operators are this cheep, they aren't worth working for. This is definitely not the right way of getting your self employed!

High Nr

I know you're just a wind up and I shouldn't spend my time on you but, I would suggest you blow your a*** and think before you bark like a poodle at the people in this business who are really working very hard towards the same goal as this guy who is paying his way into a pilot seat!

Many of them shed sweat, blood and tears over it and you dare to call them underachievers! :mad:

I know people who have paid for their type ratings and some got the job but others didn't. I don't like it and never will. It is true that some may make it into a seat by paying for it but it isn't right.

I have thought about doing this myself but decided not to, even though I have the resources!

[rotorboy]

Seems to me that in the starch wing arena self funded type ratings are common place. Ryan air, Easy Jet, Go, etc.

Quite the scam for the operator

rb

[High Nr]

Well it seems that my A***** is becoming a little crowed with folk trying to jam things there!

But seriously folk, get over it. For those that sit and jaw on, and expect that an owner would and should do your basic training for you, then good luck, you deserve the wait.

But for those that focus on what and where they want to be, and then tailor there own training, education and efforts towards those goals, then the under achievers have just been trodden on, and I can hear you squeal already.

Get over it.

It’s a Market Economy, not your Private Club!!

[Whirlygig]

If it wasn't for the fact that PPRUNE FAN #1's post are usually much more verbose but with a better handle on grammar and spelling, I'd think that he and High Nr are one and the same :p

Ah-ha, but wait.... where is our Lord Gymble; King of the Wind-up Merchants?

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlybird]

...before you bark like a poodle at the people in this business who are really working very hard towards the same goal as this guy who is paying his way into a pilot seat!

Get real! We ALL pay our way into a pilot's seat!!!!!! Unless we're ex-mil, that is. I don't like to work out what my CPL(H), hour building, and FI rating has cost me. As kissmysquirrel said, his IR is going to cost him a bloody fortune...on top of all he's already spent

High Nr has a point. Is blatantly paying an employer so different from shelling out all that dosh to get more qualifications? The North Sea companies used to take new CPLs; now they want an IR before they consider you (unless that's changed; I haven't kept up to date). Are the pilots who pay £20,000+ to get that IR and a job doing anything any different? Aren't they effectively just giving the companies that money? They're just not advertising the fact.

Yes, the fact that some people have lots of money screws it for those of us that don't. The fact that so many aviation-addicted idiots like us will pay out so much to be allowed to fly for a living means there are no grants, no free training, none of the things professionals in other fields get. That's the way it is. This guy is simply spelling it out more bluntly than most, that's all.

I agree with whoever said he'd be better off getting more qualifications with the money (can't be bothered to scroll back to find out who it was). But is he doing anything wrong? No. And why should he care if he screws it for the rest of us, if it gets him a job? Would you feel sorry for me, if you got a job which I wanted, in this cut-throat industry of ours? Of course you bloody wouldn't!!!

So why don't you all stop whinging and think logically for a change.

Whirly
(who actually now has enough flying work to be totally knackered, and may regret putting this so strongly when she recovers.)

[High Nr]

Oh Whirly, cut me some slack please, it was a great Saturday Night after all.

Who is #1...?????

[Whirlygig]

High Nr,

Whirls = Whirlygig
Whirly = Whirlybird

A small, subtle difference! But given that it was me who was a little (only a little, mind!) insulting by comparing you to the illustrious PPF#1, I assume 'tis I to whom you refer!

As for "who is" PPF#1 - oh please do a search for some of his posts; normally highly entertaining if not taken too seriously; ditto for Gymble!

You may well have a valid point to make High Nr, but you will instantly get everyone's backs up by launching in and calling them losers (no apostrophe).

The difference though is that whilst many newly qualified pilots have paid for their training and ratings, that training and rating is theirs and theirs alone and they can take it with them whereever they go!

The 10k paid to a prospective employer is dead money; assuming Australian employment law is not too dissimilar from the UK, then I would suggest that there wouldn't be anything in this guy's employment contract to protect his 10k investment. So, the company could take him on, get his 10 grand and sack him within the few months probationary period and pocket the dough!

A fool-hardy plan.

Cheers

Whirls

[High Nr]

I'm retired Whirls.....built up so much wealth whilst flying, that I could retire a little before my 78th birthday...!!!

So I dont care if I insult folk.....only the under achievers will take offence, the rest are the folk that will shape the industries future due to their initiative.

Yes, I know #1.......smile.

[Whirlygig]

So I dont care if I insult folk
That's a very sad indictment on your life then.only the under achievers will take offence Not true, others may also find it offensive that you think it's acceptable social behaviour to bandy insults. "No man is an island...." etc??

Cheers

Whirls

[Simon853]

All this is making me wonder...
From what I gather from reading here over the past months is that the current helicopter industry is largely full of older guys (and gals) who either came through the military, or made it when the employment climate made it easier through paid type-ratings, IR not necessary to get a co-pilot NS job, etc.

So, now things have changed, the mil isn't pumping out as many heli jocks and no-one offers sponsorships: how is the industry filling it's new seats? Are we now in a situation where they're being filled by kids with rich parents? Is it going to become an underpaid privelege to get a job for those that perhaps don't really need one in the first place?

Si

[C4]

The minute that we allow this kind of behavior to occur, we are letting ourselves down as pilots. What other occupation dictates that the employee pays the employer to work??? Bull@#%$....

It then sets a precedent, and we all will have the same ****e to deal with.. Employers will then expect payment from prospective pilots.

Same as the "will fly for food" principle.. Everybody in the industry suffers downstream.

STOP THE MADNESS

[Whirlybird]

Yeah, right, and let's unionise and go on strike and refuse to work unless they triple our pay, and give really good jobs to 200 hour CPLs. Actually, while we're about it, let's demand that they offer scholarships for training and guaranteed jobs to anyone who wants to become a helicopter pilot...why should we pay for it all? I'll be delighted to be your shop steward, and I have a loud voice, so right now - EVERYBODY OUT!!!!!!

Like I said before, get real!

[diethelm]

"Stupid Pilots needed.

Must have:

Deep pockets, preferably thick wallets, blond blue eyed, IQ at room temp and be prepared to go brown nose."

If this truly is the job description, I should be chief pilot.

[tommacklin]

I think this whole thing is a wind-up. Why would anyone place such an ad in The Australian in the hope that prospective employers would read it? There can't be that many ME employers in Aus, it would make more sense to call all the chief pilots and tell them personally.

Having said that, this guy is 37 years old, low time CPL, he wants a multi-engine job with 500 hours guaranteed and he is prepared to pay an employer to take the added risk by giving him a chance. I don't see what the song and dance is about. He is not going to change the hiring system within the industry.

tm

[hemac]

I saw an ad for a pilot on a web site today (it was an old ad so don't all go scrambling for it). The job was based in Northern Canada and possibly because of the location the employment criteria weren't quite as stringent as you normally see, hours, type, that sort of thing. The only strict criteria, that I could see, was that the pilot obviously had to have a Canadian compliant licence.
The web site in question was set up much like a forum so employers post an advert and potential pilots can post a response.
Some likely lad/lass instead of getting off their a*se and researching the possibility of converting their licence to a Canadian one posted, what seemed to me to be, a task to the potential employer to find out how they could convert their licence; and if they did could they have the job.
To my mind the helicopter industry is the same as any other industry, there will always be those with a rich Mummy or Daddy and others with the benefit of the old boy network. The rest of us have to make ourselves employable and that means, as well as type ratings and hours and all the other specifics to the aviation industry, a certain amount of get up and go, not sitting back moaning that no one wants to give you a job.
Personally I think there are other ways of making an employer believe that you are exactly what his business needs other than paying him, defeats the object really.
Rant over.

H.

[Bertie Thruster]

I found that joining the Army, in order to fly helicopters, was just like paying for the opportunity. Only not in cash.

[goaround7]

In one way or another, all professions require us to 'pay' to get at least that first job, whether it be a paper qualification, un- or low paid real world experience, working years of articles or apprenticeship, or professional fees etc.

Would it have been regarded differently if alleged would be pilot had promised a potential employer to spend $10k of his own money for whatever training was deemed necessary to do the job ?

Sounds like a good deal to the employer, somewhat easier to swallow than an outright bribe, follows low cost airline methods, and as long as safety is not compromised, what's the difference ?

As for the ex-military boys and girls, and I'm not one of them, let's not forget that they entered a deal with their respective governments to get their training, without a guaranteed pay back in civvie street unless they stayed alive.

It did involve the inherent risk of an array of enemies - and the Americans, irrespective of whether you are on their side or not - shooting at and possibly killing them. So maybe those of us who took the 'hard' route of paying for it ourselves with profits from the 'battlefields' of commerce or remortgages or, if you were really lucky, somebody else's money, should give them just a little bit of slack now and then.

Not too much though 'cos they can't half moan sometimes...

[overpitched]

In my mind there is absolutely no similarity between, training for a position, and paying for a position. Whatever worthwhile career you choose in life there will always be a cost (monetry and otherwise) in obtaining the qualifications necessary to obtain an entry into your chosen field. Thats just the way it is. However what this fool is attempting to do is say......

Look I know I don't have the qualifications to get the job I want. I know there are people around that are better qualified, who can do the job better but I believe in a quick fix, a back door. I don't believe in the right way or the best way, or hard work, or sacrifice. I just believe in my way... the short cut.

We really need more people like this in aviation. I know he's not getting my job, I'm safe, well until I get airbourne that is because he may soon be sharing my skies.

The system of supply and demand means that generally the people that should get the jobs do get the jobs. More or less. I for one hope "John" can't get around the system.

Good luck to anyone who hires him.

[rotorboy]

Paying to get the first job? Heck I am still paying. Heres a scenario: current employer pays well below standard for flying helicopter X, but will check me out in a larger twin, helicopter Y. I could make the 10K more working for a different operator but big picture for my career getting into Helicopter Y will pay more in the future.....

How is that much different than the fellow willing to pay for his type. Again if you think that is obsurd look in the fied wind industry.

RB

[overpitched]

The difference is you've earned the job you've got and if what you say is correct you are in a position to advance your career thru the experience you have gained, even though you may be earning less than you could elsewhere. What you describe is normal in any industry. No matter what job it's not just about the money. It may be about quality of work, or lifestyle, or location, or in your case opportunity for advancement.

And this guy is not paying for a type rating he is paying for a job. Pure and simple. From his add he is willing to pay for the rating AND an extra 10 grand for the job.... Makes me wonder what he will be prepared to do to keep a job !!!!

[Heli-Ice]

Well folks, I know why pilots are looking at lower wages and having to pay their employer to get the job. Its because women were let in, the same happened for teachers.

[rotorboy]

yaozers!!!!!!!!!!
let the games begin!

[Whirlygig]

It's a good job I know Heli-Ice and I know where he lives.

Heli-Ice, that comment had better be tongue in cheek otherwise I'm gonna whoop your a$$. And when I've finished your wife can take over!

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlybird]

Well folks, I know why pilots are looking at lower wages and having to pay their employer to get the job. Its because women were let in, the same happened for teachers.

Can't handle the fact we're better than you, eh? ;)

Heli-Ice, sounds like you might have to battle with me, Whirlygig, and your wife all at the same time. Are you sure you want to continue this line of thought?

[High Nr]

Good on Yah Iceman.

At least I'm off the hook now.

[Whirlygig]

At least I'm off the hook now.
Oh no you're not! What makes you think that!

Cheers

Whirls

[Cron]

I'm having some difficulty with my thought processes regarding the main thrust of this thread and I may need some sorting out.

Say one had about £60,000 spare cash, low airtime R22, PPL(H) only, just the wrong side of 50 years old and a burning desire to instruct.

Then it crossed one's mind to find an operator to give it all to in return for total involvment in heli operations, doing all the dumb jobs whilst being assisted through CPL, getting blobs of airtime, being exposed to professionals, making contacts etc and being paid just enough to cover small living expenses.

But, this seems to fall under the 'trying to buy a job' banner. But from the employers side it could be said to be benefiting the industry and thus the punters.

How right or wrong is one to speculate in bed and think these thoughts?

[the coyote]

Sure you're not talking about your sex life ? :E

[Thomas coupling]

Offering money for specialised services is called prostitution in another industry:E