Closed Threads

[dublinpilot]

Why was the "Mandatory Ground School" thread closed?

And more significantly, why was it closed without an explanation??

If Pprune wasn't happy with it's content, then why did the moderators not voice this concern, and attempt to steer it?

Why not do the usual trick, and delete the content that is causing a problem?

If they really felt it needed to be closed, then why not put an explanation at the end?

I haven't seen a thread closed in private flying before, and I really hope we don't see the moderators going down that route in the future.

dp :uhoh:

[skydriller]

DP, Judging from the last few posts it might have been because the thread was a wind-up? But some of the debate I feel was very valid however.....

Regards, SD..

PS, did you ever solve that non-existant French Restricted Airspace question?

[BRL]

Sorry mate, I was the one that locked that thread, see skydrillers response above.

Sorry for not replying why sooner, been a bit busy here.

You won't believe the emails/Pms etc that I have had regarding this thread asking for it to be locked, pulled, investigated and so on so I closed it. (public demand and all that). :)

[dublinpilot]

sd,

No, I never got a definitive answer to the prohibited areas.

IO540 suggested that I check the notams for that area to see if they show anything, which I will do, but haven't had a chance to yet.

Assuming that shows nothing, then I've come to the conclusion that it's old data.

I can easily fly around these two areas; I was more concerned that there was something missing in my flight planning, and that there was something that I need to check for these and other areas. But looks like my planning is ok! ;)

BRL,

Sorry about the criticism. It's just that 'the other place' locks a fair amount of threads, and that really bugs me. I'd hate to think we are going down that road. I can well understand the pressure people can put on you behind the scenes. But I really think that if people have a problem with a thread, then they need to put their point on the thread. Arguing with you, behind the scenes, it like running to the teacher, to complain about someone else. Aren't we all adults now? I don't think any organisation, or person was attacked or ridiculed in the thread (probably why you didn't pull the thread altogether). And the thread itself did a pretty good job of dismissing the rumours.

But every time someone complains to you in a pm about a thread they don't like (excluding abusive, offencive or slanderous threads), and you give in, I think we wind up with stealth moderators.

public demand and all that
I appreciate what you say about public demand. But when it's done in private, then you only hear from those wanting it closed. Those wanting it kept open, don't bother to pm you. Therefore this is more akin to lobbying, than public demand.

I didn't contribute to that thread. I had nothing to say on the topic. And I'm not asking for it to be re-opened.

I just thought that I should voice my opinion about closing topic, and having stealth moderation, before it become common place.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my criticism, and explaining why you closed it.

dp :ok:

[Whirlybird]

BRL,

I understand your problem. However, I agree with dublinpilot about this. The thread - windup, blatantly wrong, or whatever - was generating some interesting discussion.

Also, how do you gauge public opinion? People asked you to close it...right. Had I known, I would have asked you to keep it open. Had you even posted saying that you were being asked to close it, and what should you do, I could have voiced my opinion. But I didn't know, did I? And neither did the rest of us.

This is IN NO WAY intended as a criticism of you, BRL. You have a difficult job; I know that. But it brings up an interesting point. Why is a thread closed? OK, we all know the usual reasons - wrong forum, too much flaming, obscene, or similar. But...public opinion? What is that? Do you have to have a certain number of requests to close a thread, and then you do? Is it sort of arbitrary, based on how you feel at the time? Do those of us who want a thread to remain have to be psychic, and know when you're getting enough emails to drive you mad, and add to that maddening flow of emails by saying we want a thread to remain? Or do we just accept it, becasue you're the moderator and we're just ordinary prooners with no say in the matter?

I'm just...thinking...and asking...that's all....

[MLS-12D]

You won't believe the emails/Pms etc that I have had regarding this thread asking for it to be locked, pulled, investigated and so on so I closed it. (public demand and all that)Well and good; but can you say what the actual problem with the thread was? Doubtless it was more than "public demand", which as Whirly quite rightly points out is a rather nebulous concept. I agree with her that it is disturbing to see what, at this point, appears to be an arbitrary closure.

The actual subject matter of the thread was of no interest to me; but that's irrelevant:
First they came for the Communists,
but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing.
Then they came for the Social Democrats,
but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing.
Then came the trade unionists,
but I was not a trade unionist.
And then they came for the Jews,
but I was not a Jew, so I did little.
Then when they came for me,
there was no one left to stand up for me.

Martin Niemöller (http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/niem.htm)I'm just...thinking...and asking...that's all....

[BRL]

Hi all. I have just woken up for a wee, I am on nights at the moment, and I will reply to this later.

Thanks for the input by the way, much appreciated as always. :)

[BRL]

Well, where do I start! First off, you must remember this is your forum and your contributions make the forum what it is. Now, bearing that in mind, when I get complaints from a load of people regarding a thread/posts I will act on it (your forum).

When one or two people write in to complain about something then I will usually ask other mods for advice or, believe it or not, make my own decision. If loads of people write in then I will usually go with that as in this case, i.e you, the people who contibute to this forum, asked for its closure.

I think it is obvious why as you all pretty much have said the same things in emails/PM's etc. If the thread got closed and you couldn't see why then that is not my problem is it and if you disagree with he desicion then PM me or the other mod and we can sort something out.

I don't know you want it kept open for I, same as you, am not psychic except when I recieve lots of mail regarding an issue here. Then I will act on it, again, your forum and all that.

Hope that has all made sense, still a bit tired to be honest after just getting up so if it doesnt then that is my excuse :)

[Whirlybird]

BRL,

I appreciate you're tired and all that. But suppose you get 100 complaints, but there are 10,000 people who want the thread kept open? We can't write to you with a list of all the threads we want kept open, can we? Could you maybe post giving us a warning; tell us that you've had complaints, and ask in public on the thread what the majority think/want?

Anyway, I'm thinking of starting a new thread asking if PPL ground school should be more formal, as I think it's an interesting topic...but I'm too tired right now. :{

[BRL]

Ok, will do. :)

[MLS-12D]

I think it is obvious why as you all pretty much have said the same things in emails/PM's etc.I didn't say anything; and you haven't made any attempt to provide the gist of what other people apparently said in private correspondence ... so no, it certainly is not obvious.

If the thread got closed and you couldn't see why then that is not my problem is itOh. I see. I guess we should all just be quiet. :hmm:

It is certainly disappointing that well-meant, legitimate enquiries have been met with such a curt dismissal. Shame! :sad:

[dublinpilot]

BRL,

I accept that you may have just woken up, and may not have been fully awake when you wrote that post, but I have to say that I find your posting very concerning.

Mainly because you're equating some people pm'ing you, with how everyone feels. Why not draw the opposite conclusion and assume that everyone that didn't pm you, was happy for the thread to continue?

Those who wanted the thread closed, seem to have become very quiet too, which makes me wonder about their motives.

When you say "it's your forum" I agree completely. It's everybody heres forum. Not just those who choose to complain in private.

Anyway I don't want to make a big deal out of this. I just wanted you to know that some of us don't like the idea of threads being closed, due to some members lobbying behind the scenes.

I'd be quite happy if you followed Whirlys suggestion, and let us know on the thread that you were being asked to close the thread because of xxx. Then those of us who want it left open, can happily pm you to lobby to keep it open!

dp

[BRL]

Agreed and noted, thank you :)

[rustle]

The advantage of thread locking (albeit arbitrarily) is that the inputs are not lost, and the thread can be re-opened if needs be.

Compare that with the sad deletion of threads where the thread starter in a fit of pique decides to delete his/her first post (and thereby deletes the whole thread) just because not everyone agrees with them.

Recent example the ICAO code thread, near-misses (thread-prox ;)) Lydd Diversion.

[PPRuNe Radar]

We still have the Lydd thread, since it was recognised that it was a useful topic to be debated and should (on the balance of 'public interest') remain. However, the thread starter did give a heads up that they would pull it and Danny was able to be a little sneaky and change the thread starter to himself before it happened.

Lydd thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=182382)

Unfortunately if there is no indication this might happen, then we can lose a lot of good input and debate if the thread starter doesn't like what they read, or perhaps thinks better of what they have said, and then arbitrarily removes the topic without giving anyone the chance to salvage any of it.

I don't know if there is anything on the Bulletin Board software side which can be done to prevent thread starters deleting threads without admin input, but I expect it is just something we have to live with. I'll see what I can find out.

[spekesoftly]

I don't know if there is anything on the Bulletin Board software side which can be done to prevent thread starters deleting threads without admin input, but I expect it is just something we have to live with.

A look at the FAQ section, under "Can I edit my own posts?", suggests that the software can be so altered:-
If you have registered, you will be able to edit and delete your posts. Note that the administrator can disable this ability as he desires. Your ability to edit your posts may also be time-limited, depending on how the administrator has set up the board.

[PPRuNe Radar]

It seems it can ....over to the Chief Exec for a decision then since it would be a global change :ok:

[Whirlygig]

That would appear to be a major global change so I hope everyone will have the opportunity to discuss this issue.

Personally, I think everyone should have the right to edit and/or delete their posts and, if they are the thread starter, to delete the whole thread. I have deleted topics I have started for what I consider to be good reasons and, for a good reason, I would like to delete a post on a thread which has been closed (not on this forum) but find I cannot as it's been closed.

These reasons are varied and personal; just as anyone else's reasons might be for doing the same thing.

Cheers

Whirls

[rustle]

No-one is suggesting preventing editing - if you change your mind about what you have posted edit the post (to a minimum 15 characters ;)) -- obviously editing a post in a locked thread is not possible.

Other BB software prevents the deletion of a post once someone has posted after, but allows editing of prior posts. It works well, and if it is really necessary the mods can delete/move/rename the thread anyway.

I also doubt PPRuNe need approval from its users to make such a change if it/they deem it worthwhile -- as we have been told previously, it ain't a democracy ;) :D


BTW, PPRuNe Radar, aware of the Lydd Thread hence my referring to it as a near-miss (thread-prox) rather than a deletion - good pilotage prevented it becoming a statistic ;)

[PPRuNe Radar]

15 ? :E