Mandatory groundschool for PPL coming soon. [Archive]

Gertrude the Wombat

1st Aug 2005, 23:24

What evidence is there to suggest that the standard of academic knowledge of PPLs and PPL students is deficient? The occasional post here, perhaps?:( If it IS the case and a student can pass the exams, then surely it is the exam standard that should be questioned, not the method of learning. Well, indeed, but in these days of multiple-choice A levels and degrees marked by computers, where no evidence of understanding anything is required nor any evidence of any ability to think, it's asking a bit much to expect the revolution to start with the PPL exams, surely to goodness :( :( :( :( :(

Whirlygig

1st Aug 2005, 23:55

Absolutely, but apparently multi-guess is a good enough method for examining CPL and ATPL :confused: :suspect:

Cheers

Whirls

BEagle

2nd Aug 2005, 06:15

Any such change would surely need a Regulatory Impact Assessment.

And who would debrief the exams? Unlke the CPL/ATPL exams, the Examiner is required to debrief any failed questions in a successful exam pass at PPL level.

What was the source of this rumour?

kissmysquirrel

2nd Aug 2005, 06:27

Seems that PPL's have very poor knowledge of what they're doing, or at least that's the belief. CAA have decided that the exams will be run along similar lines to the CPL/ATPL etc. You will have to do full time or distance learning study courses. Exams sat at CAA approved places at certain times. Costs will be increased to approx £50 per exam. No more flying schools giving the exam as and when. Another great move for the industry. Let's see. We make trial lessons into commercial flights so need an AOC, exams for PPL cost more and harder to do. Training is certainly going to increase!
;)

helicopter-redeye

2nd Aug 2005, 07:29

May I ask where you heard this rumour? I can't see that it will bring anything to the industry.

I heard this last week as well.

However as KMS was where I was last week a few weeks ago he (or she..) may have heard it from the same sigar cmoking source ("Deep Throat").

RHI that exams will be held at local driving test centres to ensure correct completion.

Will it put some people off, having to take exams in a more formal manner?

Probably.

Is it a bad thing that we slim down the flying gene pool and remove people who are 'less able'?

Discuss.

IO540

2nd Aug 2005, 07:41

Any views or thoughts on what this will bring to the industry?

Nothing, but it is just vaguely possible that the CAA isn't looking after the "industry" with this (if indeed this proposal is coming).

The strict interests of the flight training industry (make money; to hell with what happens to people once their training is finished) barely coincide with the presumed interests of pilots (to be able to do interesting flying).

The deficiency that I do see everywhere is that most fresh PPLs know very little and not enough to fly to interesting places. This no doubt plays a big part in why most of them quickly pack up.

Whether mandatory ground school is the way to address this, I don't know. Who would teach it? Most instructors know very little more about flying to real places.

I do think there should be more general knowledge. Not ATPL-style learning about masses of stuff one doesn't need to know.

There should be more weather appreciation - but not theoretical cr*p about how the air moves about at 38000ft; it should be real-world flight planning using MODERN (=internet) weather sources. One could cover a lot of this in a 2-day course costing perhaps £100-200. Peanuts on the scale of PPL costs. There is at least one commercial firm running exactly such courses, though I don't think they are any more inundated with customers than those trying to run GPS courses :O

There should be more about foreign flying. Similar costs/times to above. People soon get sick of flying to Compton Abbas for a baggette. Anyone doubting the need for this should fly abroad and listen to Brit PPLs on the radio.

Ultimately, this would increase the cost of a PPL, but only slightly, and it would make pilots much better prepared.

p.s. I don't think "slimming down the gene pool" should be the objective. There are some real thickos, with all the right body piercings, that turn up for trial lessons, but IME most of the PPLs that do pack it in within 1 year ARE plenty intelligent enough - intelligent enough to realise that what they have been taught isn't any good for going anywhere interesting. If they were thick, they would just carry on, flying into CAS and CBs, and worse.

italianjon

2nd Aug 2005, 08:10

I like the idea of structured ground school. I am doing some self-study at home at the moment, hoping to start my flying part of my PPL quite soon.

The only thing that concerns me is that increases in costs always favour those with money. I know a few people who would love to fly, but can’t due to the fact they do not have any money. These are people who have gone through university (and done hard degrees, Engineering; Physics etc.) The student loans have – well, buggered them.

It is a sad fact that our cost of living is out stripping our wage increases; this is a fact of life we have to live with. There are many ways the CAA could shed some Darwin Candidates from the gene pool, but increasing cost seems to do this to the detriment of some potentially very safe and knowledgeable pilots.

I know this may be slightly off topic, and from a pre-PPL position I may not carry any weight with my argument, however, I would rather see more testing and harder exams.

To put an off the wall idea into the pot, why not have free tests, theory and practical, every few months, then you only pay for the “top-up” training required. That is then an incentive for people to keep their currency up; otherwise the bills really roll in. Those that are not really interested and had money to burn will leave the pool. The idea is probably completely unworkable but I think worth a suggestion.

Cheers,

J

Whirlybird

2nd Aug 2005, 08:22

There's a rumour. Right, I see. Well, if there wasn't before this thread started, there is now. And BEagle knew nothing about it, and none of the flying mags mentioned it, and no-one else seems to have heard of it. And who's organised the schools to teach, the exam centres all over the country, the ground tutors, etc etc etc? Somehow I don't feel the need to take this rumour seriously, at least, not yet.

Is it a good idea? No. I passed the PPL exams with flying colours, as did many. But I knew bugger all, really, of what mattered. And for you "it was all better in the old days" types, I passed "O" and "A" levels with flying colours too, way back when we had to string whole sentences together in exams, and I didn't know a lot then. I've always been good at passing exams - at writing well if required, and learning and regurgitating, at exam planning so I can fit everything into the time required, and make intelligent guesses if guesses are needed. And there are many like me, inside and outside of aviation. And before any of you take this confession and run with it, I HAVE learned the relevant stuff since then so far as aviation is concerned, and I'm still learning...so stop the personal criticism before you even start!!!

As for IO540's comments, many of them are very relevant. But I'm not really sure how you'd fit this into the PPL course. Most people can't afford any more, and if they can, some of this tuition is around, for met etc. Moany new PPLs would like to do local flights and extend as they gain experience, and that makes sense to me. Do you need a course to do this? As for foreign flying, it's only realistic for those living in the south of the UK, or those who have access to a fast aircraft, or a slower one for at least a weekend. And people want different things - touring, farm strip flying, aerobatics, trying new types, IMC, to name but a few. Now, making the information available as to how to find out about these is a good thing, of course it is. But it's not that hard to find out about it anyway.

I think people give up because they want to. Either obtaining the PPL was the only aim, or flying doesn't grab them enough to spend several thousand pounds a year on it, or it takes up too much time, most of it sitting on the ground staring at the clouds, or....well, do you really want me to go on?

Because we all think paying a fortune to sit 2000 ft up in a cramped, dangerous, noisy little metal contraption is wonderful, that doesn't mean everyone who's tried it is going to agree. :)

mad_jock

2nd Aug 2005, 09:45

The manditory PPL distance learning course maybe a bit of a political suggestion to allow what they really want to do to be enforced while looking as if they have given something back.

Unfortunately all the schools which follow the examiners manual are going to get a cash hit because of this.

Personally I feel they want to take control of the ground exam sitting side of things. There are very wide standards when it comes to sitting the exams. Some schools enforce the time alloted others don't. Instructors or admin issuing the exams instead of the examiner. Instructors doing debriefs. Rooms not cleared of books before exams. Extra 4th sittings. All the new exam questions being available at the Barra's (In Glasgow) on CD before the newly issued ones have even gone live.

If this is the case of the CAA just tightening up the exam standardisation. It will be fairer for the students. The task of getting to a driving agency examination center ain't that bad. And if they maintain the current pricing scheme it won't really be an issue.

The other thing I wouldn't mind seeing is an examiner being allocated from a central point for intial PPL flight tests.
Again this will wind quite a few schools up. But it will stop the selection of examiners by the schools to suit the candidate. This should mean that the known soft examiners are not use to get a pass.

In summary I think its a good idea to take the ground exams out of the schools allowing a fairer level platform for the students nationwide. I think its a bad idea to enforce a gound school element with approved training organisations. And i am still not decided if i would be pro examiner allocation from external to the school instead of the find your own as it is just now.

MJ

Say again s l o w l y

2nd Aug 2005, 10:16

Not heard of this one before. It might be time to start asking some questions though.

Anything that increases the cost of flying in this country is a BAD thing.
Anything that can increase the quite frankly dismal standards of knowledge amongst many PPL's (and though I hate to say it many PPL instructors) is a GOOD thing.

Is this a GOOD thing or a BAD thing? Not sure, but we sure as hell need to do something about the general standards in this industry.

It's funny, but I'm finding myself coming towards IO540's viewpoint. There are some fantastic instructors out there, but there are also some who shouldn't be allowed near an airfix model and schools which are so appalling in their attitude, it's a wonder they have any customers.

Mike Cross

2nd Aug 2005, 11:03

Nothing is ever perfect so it is always possible to improve standards. Whether they NEED to be improved is another matter.

We could reduce the risk of injury to pedestrians by padding lamp posts so they don't injure themselves by walking into them but should we?

The PPL exams should produce someone who is reasonably safe to be let loose on his own. That means he has a good appreciation of his own limitations so that he can make the decisions that, during the solo phase of his training, were made for him by his instructor. It doesn't mean he has to be expert in all of the things that his license entitles him to do. It means he has the ability to judge what he should and should not attempt based on his own experience and currency and the resources at his disposal.

IMHO it would be no bad thing if PPL FI's could be renumerated. That way we might have instructors who are passionate about flying light aircraft rather than being passionate about gaining enough hours to get an airline interview. (Or am I just being a grumpy old git?)

Mike

helicopter-redeye

2nd Aug 2005, 11:06

slimming down the gene pool

To qualify and clarify (if I said it in the first place).

It is not body piercing that should be removed but 'pierced attitude'.

Learning more (useful) stuff would be valuable for PPLs. Met esp.

Does it have to be at the time of the initial course or could it be a continuation training and supervision syllabus beyond the current ab initio up to say 100 - 150hrs?

Discuss

h-r:)

Say again s l o w l y

2nd Aug 2005, 11:42

No Mike I don't think you are being a grumpy git at all.

Actually, there is a very good argument for having 'good' PPL's teaching. In most schools you have the hour builder CPL's who really don't want to be there. Most don't seem to know an awful lot about being a PPL since they have never been one.

Anyone who teaches should of course be renumerated properly and may be making the FI rating a bit tougher but allowing all holders of it to be paid would be sensible.

Of course this is where the problems start. Usually your average CPL FI has been through all the groundschool for the ATPL's, so their technical knowledge should be excellent, invariably it will be better than most PPL's simply because they have had to study it in far greater depth.

Could this move to take away groundschool from the schools be the start of a trend towards more PPL instructors?

In a way that could be a good thing, but it could make life very difficult for the people coming out of school and not going straight into the airlines. I still think instructing is useful in the development of new airline pilots, if anything it teaches you people skills.

englishal

2nd Aug 2005, 11:43

Why don't they just have online exams? The technology is there, it is secure, they are marked instantly with a certificate printed which can be shown to examiners.

Approved schools could have the facility, and frankly if the CAA don't trust them to conduct exams properly, take away their authorisation. Timing wouldn't be an issue, the exam could expire X minutes after its started. An examiner would not need to be present.......

About time we joined the 21st century.

conor_mc

2nd Aug 2005, 11:44

PPL groundschool is mandatory in Ireland.

Personally, I think its a good idea. One way or the other, you'll pay for the instructors time in individual ground briefs on those area's of theory which can be covered at less cost to a student in a classroom environment, where not only will students share the burden of cost, but you'll also inevitably learn more from the questions others ask which you hadn't thought of.

For the record, my groundschool ran 3 hours * 3 nights * 4 weeks. 36 scheduled hours, which actually amounted to about 40 due to the number of students in the class for one subject, and cost €450.... about £300.

€12.50 an hour instead of €25-30 for ground briefing - good value to me.

RVR800

2nd Aug 2005, 12:18

Yes the PPL/IR could be tested on-line as well come to think of it the ATPL and CPL could as well ... thats what they do in the US isnt it?

The problem with this is that the CAA would lose some of their revenue... They are happy to do it for the PPLs though - come to think of it ah but they they dont get a fee for the PPL writtens its the schools that receive this .. oh silly me that why they've agreed to it...:rolleyes:

EISG

2nd Aug 2005, 12:38

In Ireland PPl ground school is mandatory and theres only 4 exams for a JAR PPL

BEagle

2nd Aug 2005, 13:27

At my RF there is no charge for ground briefing time and no charge for the first attempt at any exam. We reserve the right to charge for a second attempt; we refuse to allow anyone to make a third attempt until he/she has been to a specialist service provider.

Virtually everyone passes at the first attempt even though we don't have any formal groundschool. The papers are locked away and no-one except the examiner and the applicant is allowed to see them or to see the applicant's answer sheet.

If some schools have been cheating the system, then take action against them by all means. But do NOT tar the vast majority of schools, who have been conducting PPL exams in the UK since time immemorial, with the same brush! I am totally opposed to 'on-line exams'; the principal value of the current system is that the Examiner debriefs the applicant! Unlike the 'learn, dump, next' ATPL exam technique.

I also believe that the FI Rating should have a tougher and more relevant content for PPL FIs - and that the FR Rating should include a right to receive remuneration irrespective of the licence on which it is included. With the only caveat being that a FI may only teach to the level of the licence and rating which he/she holds.

Mike Cross

2nd Aug 2005, 13:36

it could make life very difficult for the people coming out of school and not going straight into the airlines.
Mmmmm.... Is the stude paying to learn to fly or is he paying to build hours for the candidate for the airline job? Friend of mine has his Frozen ATPL, IR et al but can't get an airline interview till he has 750 Hrs.

But then of course GA does not subsidise the airlines - we know that because Roy Eddington of BA says so.

N5528P

2nd Aug 2005, 13:41

What evidence is there to suggest that the standard of academic knowledge of PPLs and PPL students is deficient? If it IS the case and a student can pass the exams, then surely it is the exam standard that should be questioned, not the method of learning.

Absolutely right!

Is this the way of informing the public, that certain authorities allowed thousands of pilots to get a license over the years, despite the mass of them was not lectured properly?

By the way - is the exmanier not supposed to tap into the theory a little bit?

Regards, Bernhard

IO540

2nd Aug 2005, 14:12

I would agree that mandatory ground school is not the only solution to improving specific knowledge areas, but it is likely to be the most economical one.

One problem is that most schools prefer flying (i.e. renting out a plane at the self fly hire rate, plus the instructor rate) to running a ground school. Flying is much more profitable and does not require the reasonable premises which ground school needs.

Beagle

the principal value of the current system is that the Examiner debriefs the applicant

Are you referring to PPL exams? When I did my JAA ones (2000/2001) the person who marked the paper and told me the mark was expressly prohibited from discussing the questions with me. This, I was told, was done to make me less likely to remember the question(s) and to pass on the details to subsequent students. Every PPL in the UK sat the same paper; the only time the questions changed was when one failed and then one got a different paper.

I've since done the FAA PPL and IR written (computer) exams and there is nothing insecure or otherwise wrong with the process. It is highly secure and controlled; there is even a videotape made which is then stored for a prescribed time. The checkride examiner then grills one for 1-3 hours especially on the weak areas....

mad_jock

2nd Aug 2005, 14:13

BEagle I am afraid that as usual the high standards which you have at your school are in the minority.

I agree if everyone worked in the manner you have descibed there would be no reason to change.

But base line is that its your fellow examiners who are spoiling it for you. The exams are issued to the examiners, and if they then stick them in a filing cabinet in the instructors room with an answer grid. Its not the FI's fault if they are insecure and the system dosn't work the way it should.

Personally I have seen and read both the last set of PPL exams and the new set. As has every other instructor I know.

MJ

IO540

2nd Aug 2005, 14:17

Personally I have seen and read both the last set of PPL exams and the new set. As has every other instructor I know.

Does that mean that you know whether the CAA is still asking that dodgy question about the 500/600ft DH/MDH for an IMC Rated pilot (rather then the published minima) when in fact the ANO says nothing about this?

;)

englishal

2nd Aug 2005, 14:26

I've since done the FAA PPL and IR written (computer) exams and there is nothing insecure or otherwise wrong with the process.
And one big advantage is:

If the applicant fails, the reference to the questions is also printed out. It is then the instructors duty, and he/she has to sign an endorsement confirming, that he/she has reviewed the lack in knowledge and that the applicant is at a sufficient standard to retake.

Not only that, the examiner must see the score sheet during the oral exam. Even if the candidate has passed the test, the references to any failed questions are printed on the sheet, and the examiner will focus his questioning on these topics....more than likely.

Whirlygig

2nd Aug 2005, 14:40

expressly prohibited from discussing the questions with me

I did my JAA PPL(H) in 2003 and did the exams at two differents schools (long story but perfectly allowable). In both cases, the examiner sat me down and went through it with me. I understood that this was meant to be part of process.

If you were told that this wasn't allowed because you could memorize the answers, well, I think that's a fob-off!

My belief is that there are three sets of papers for each subject and the examiner can pick one at random. If you fail, he picks the next one at random (from the remaining two - obviously a note is made of which set you do) and if you fail that, you do the last one left. If you fail that, because you have done all the papers available, that is why the CAA require extra tuition.

Hopefully, schools like BEagle's and the two I went to are not so rare?

Cheers

Whirls

ariel

2nd Aug 2005, 15:05

Whirlygig

If the candidate achieves a pass, the examiner should discuss with him/her the questions that have been incorrectly answered.

If the candidate fails, the examiner may indicate areas of weakness, but should not discuss any answers to any specific questions

So, not such a 'fob off'

Whirlygig

2nd Aug 2005, 15:10

Sure ariel, I was assuming that IO540 had passed!!

mad_jock

2nd Aug 2005, 15:28

Its still in the IMC exam don't worry. That exam must be getting on for nearly 15 years old now by the state of the script.

:=

MJ

StrateandLevel

2nd Aug 2005, 15:28

Kiss your ass or whatever!

"Yes, you heard this rumour right"

When are you going to tell the CAA cos the man who writes the questions has not been told about it!

mad_jock

2nd Aug 2005, 15:37

It must be a wind up then.

StrateandLevel has proved in the past that they have more of a clue about the inside than is fair debating on PPrune ;) .

O well it still dosn't change the fact that there is alot of rule bending going on out there. Which drags people like BEagle down with them when it goes wrong.

MJ

BEagle

2nd Aug 2005, 15:52

MJ - if you hear something from StrateandLevel, you can rest assured that what he says is correct.

Regarding this mandatory ground school/centralised exam nonsense, I have it on good authority that:

"There is no intention to do any such thing."

So whoever the person was who started the rumour, please go and get stuffed!

Say again s l o w l y

2nd Aug 2005, 16:45

Thank god for that! If it ain't broke and all that......

helicopter-redeye

2nd Aug 2005, 17:01

I say Squirrel, I think they just kissed yours ....

Whirlybird

2nd Aug 2005, 17:51

Are you referring to PPL exams? When I did my JAA ones (2000/2001) the person who marked the paper and told me the mark was expressly prohibited from discussing the questions with me. This, I was told, was done to make me less likely to remember the question(s) and to pass on the details to subsequent students.

I had something very similar. When I took my Air Law exam, in early 1998, I got well over 80%. I remember specifically asking which ones I got wrong, and being told by the person marking the paper that he wasn't allowed to tell me. I think the reason given was similar to IO540's. He said he'd tell me when I got my PPL, if I still wanted to know. Well, I did, but he'd left by then. :(