Air Canada duty hours maxed out

[armada]

Not sure if this is right forum to it post in,seems close.

How embarassing! Must have run out of per diem cash ;)


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Air Canada cancels 4 per cent of Sunday flights
CTV.ca News Staff

Air Canada admitted that it had to cancel "a limited number of flights" Sunday because pilots on its Airbus narrow body fleet had reached their monthly limit of flying hours.

Under their contract, Air Canada pilots can fly up to 84 hours a month.

The cancellations are reported to have begun on Saturday, and it is still unclear how many flights or passengers were affected.

In a news release, Air Canada said disruptions were minimal because the Airbus flies mainly on heavy-travelled routes, and many passengers were accommodated on other flights.

Air Canada said the monthly limit would run out at midnight, and the airline would be on a new monthly schedule for pilots starting Monday August 1.

The problems began earlier this month, when a combination of fog and airport construction led to days of delays at the Halifax International Airport.

"During the course of the month, weather in the U.S. northeast and Central Canada also proved to be disruptive, with system weather delays for the month running 70 per cent ahead of last year," Air Canada's statement said.




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Air Canada cancels some flights
Last Updated Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:45:44 EDT
CBC News

Air Canada is cancelling some flights because its pilots have reached the limit of their monthly flying time, spokeswoman Laura Cooke told CBC Newsworld on Sunday.

"We do apologize," she said.



But "today should be the end of it" because the airline starts a new block of time – the August quota – at midnight, she said.

It's not clear exactly how many flights or passengers are affected.

Cooke blamed the problem on a 70 per cent increase in cancelled flights in July because of the weather.


FROM JULY 2, 2005: Foggy days bring delays at Halifax airport

When a flight is cancelled or delayed, the pilot may still be on duty, sitting in the plane and eating up his flying time.

It's even worse if a pilot is held over in one city, because then the airline may have to find a replacement for him at his intended destination for his next flight.

Air Canada had 177 flights cancelled in Halifax in July, and electrical storms in Manitoba and the northest U.S. raised the total, Cooke said.

The airline has reserve pilots, but they also "have reached their max," she said.

"We started calling customers several days ago" to see if they could take a different flight, she said.

International flights protected

Flights to and from Toronto, the airline's hub, are the most affected.

Air Canada is protecting its international flights because there may only be one a day to some destinations.

But for frequently served city pairs, like Toronto-Vancouver, it is consolidating flights.

Passengers may have to wait an hour, or overnight.

It's looking at compensation on a case-by-case basis, Cooke said.

Under their contract, pilots can fly 84 hours a month. Government rules allow slightly more flying time each month.

[Kaptin M]

Management - note to self:

There is NO pilot shortage......there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....there is NO pilot shortage....

[Tan]

Hmm there are always two sides to every story perhaps some one should be asking why the pilots are booking off unnecessarily. Why didn't the union step in and provide temporary bridge relief on a one time basis only? Talk about shooting the company and their own future career aspirations in the foot. It always takes two to tango...

Pretty stupid action to have taken place in my opinion but its not the first time for this pilot group

[Kaptin M]

Ahhh, so now it's the UNION's fault for not offering the company a way out of the situation that THEY have mismanaged themselves into.

Grow up, Tan - management award themselves extra-ordinary conditions to make sure these sorts of problems should NOT occur.

Why should the pilots' union be held responsible, for irresponsible management decisions that impact on customers, AND the bottom line!

[MarkD]

tan

because what's the alternate?

if pax don't trust AC then it's CJ, WJ (if available or nowt?)

[Tan]

Kaptin M

In today's competitive world its a partnership or the alternate is going out of business. Its called accountability and responsibility..But no one ever said that this group of pilots were the sharpest knifes in the drawer.

Oh I've been a union member for over 30 years so can that stupid union rhetoric talk.

[bf109]

Tan I respect your experience but I must disagree with you on this one. I think the pilots have given enough.This looks like a case of management thinking they have enough pilots on the payroll and suddenly realising that they have to cancel flights.
You seem very senior so I guess you can afford not to fly 80 hours a month, wich is way too much by the way, but others do.
cheers

[Idle Thrust]

Tan, your profile strongly suggests that you are in fact a member of this group of "not so sharp" knives. No matter your background, I too disagree with your position on this one.

The pilots are working to their max hours yet the company is still short of staff. Why? Planned expansion (new aircraft, new routes, more frequency) has not been planned for. Furloughed pilots are only now being recalled, first course of new hires only began in mid-July. The policy of cancelling flights at month-end due to no pilots available has been going on for years at AC, it only has hit the news now.

Pilots have already agreed to extra hours and other concessions to help the company out. Too bad the management could not do what it is paid to do - manage and plan for the future.

[Tan]

bf109 & idle Thrust

I am indeed a member of this group but I pride myself on not belonging to the "not very sharp knives" group. If you find 80 hours per month stretching your capabilities perhaps you have chosen the wrong profession and should move on immediately. I can assure that I won’t miss your type at all. Oh and cut this union rhetoric about everything being managements fault, that’s a load of horse manure and you know it.

Boy did my peer group ever make a mistake in its hiring practices..Talk about "prima donnas"

[Idle Thrust]

"Oh and cut this union rhetoric about everything being managements fault, that’s a load of horse manure and you know it."

Never said "everything" was management's fault. Fact is the airline cannot fly the published schedule despite full utilization of pilot flying hours. No union rhetoric, just that fact. Given that many AC passengers are a captive audience, it may be good bottom-line business since the company still gets the fares, despite inconveniencing the public. The bad PR may come back to haunt, however.

[Kaptin M]

Oh and cut this union rhetoric about everything being managements fault, that’s a load of horse manure and you know it.No. but you Tan are at the other end of the spectrum, where you obviously believe "everything bad that happens, is because of that nasty union".

"Talk about "prima donnas", yes, let's have a look at a couple of Tan's smug posts wrt that......."Pretty stupid action to have taken place in my opinion but its not the first time for this pilot group......But no one ever said that this group of pilots were the sharpest knifes in the drawer.......I am indeed a member of this group but I pride myself on not belonging to the "not very sharp knives" group......................................you have chosen the wrong profession and should move on immediately. I can assure that I won’t miss your type at all..............Boy did my peer group ever make a mistake in its hiring practices.."(except, of course for Tan :rolleyes: )

Oh I've been a union member for over 30 years. ...obviously the sort that sits in the back row, and snipes, but never gets ACTIVELY INVOLVED from the front, to try to suggest changes that he might think would benefit both sides.
From your comments here, Tan, my guess is you have very few - if ANY - friends amongst your peers, because of YOUR prima donna, self-righteous, self-opinionated, over inflated ego.

If you find the majority opinion counter to your's, then I suggest it's YOU who should move on immediately :ok:

[Tan]

Kaptin M

Since you are not employed by this airline and therefore have no knowledge of its inner workings, please stuff a rag in it..

[frangatang]

would tan be a management pilot or have aspirations to become one?

[armada]

Sounds like Tan's been stuck in the right seat of a Jazz DHC-8 for too long :ouch:

[Idle Thrust]

No, Armada, not Jazz, given his/her profile, but management ... maybe that's it. Hey, nobody's perfect but planning is supposed to be what managers are paid for.

[pudljumpr]

Tan,old chap! What planet are you from! Obviously one where everyone walks around with there head up saying "thank god for management"!
Im a 767 CA for Air Canada and have seen our union bust their chops to improve the relationship with management only to see our contract trashed time and again.
:yuk:

[Kaptin M]

Since you are not employed by this airline and therefore have no knowledge of its inner workings, please stuff a rag in it.. You elected to post your views on a public forum, Tan - and so have I.
It's called democracy, and right of reply.

[jojodel]

84 hours a month...sounds like holiday to me. I do at least that much with a limit of 90h during last 28days.

Enjoy, jojodel

[212man]

Two questions; is the monthly limit not a rolling total? I'm surprised to read about the 'August block time'. Also, does the working agreement not include an extra payment function for time over the union negotiated limit but up to the national authority limit, to prevent this sort of disruption?

[Tan]

Sorry to disappoint you chaps but I’m left seat on an A-340 so I have intimate knowledge of the book-offs. Part of the cause of what happened last month was the direct result of pilots using their sick days while on the golf course whatever. These folks always successfully wrap themselves in the union flag so consider themselves untouchable.. Guess what’s going to happen in the next contract negotiations? The company will try to change the use of sick days and the union will give up some hard fought for benefit that we achieved in former contracts. Policing ourselves has never occurred to our dull knifes in the drawer but then it’s not in their best interests. Unfortunately their actions are hurting all of us and our future...

[jojodel]

Hello 212man,
with the comanies I know (in Europe) these limits are usually
"rolling".

Cheers, jojodel

[212man]

Jojodel,
exactly; using calender months achieves nothing of the true intent of an FTL scheme!

[pudljumpr]

Tan- or is it Smith I believe. Tell the whole story.
1/We can bock flying to 85 but go to 90.
2/The sick days have been no more abused this summer than any other in the last 10 years.
3/ The company reduced drafting premiums to less than 25%. At canada's 54% tax rate what is the incentive to screw up your days off to help a management that bonuses itself while blaming their employees for everything. Check the management pilots flying summaries last weekend and you'll find they were not in the cockpits!Fine example of leadership.
4/ We are the lowest paid of the star alliance carieers.

But obviously giving you rebuttal is flogging a dead horse.Welcome to canada Capt Smith.

[Tan]

jojodel

Pilots are credited for 80 hours but in reality the stick time is only in the high 60’s.


pudljumpr

You and your attitude are an embarrassment to the profession. I'm ashamed to admit that you are employed by such a great airline. If you had the slightest trace of decency you would decline AC's paycheck and move on. You can rest assured you won't be missed

[ea340]

Tan
As a fellow 340 line pilot it appears you have no idea what is happening on the line. Your view is one that is not widely held by your peers. As a line grunt I was at work on the long weekend and you were where. Sorry not a union rep and have never been one. Pudljumpr I'am afraid speaks for a very large number of your peers.

EA 340

[Kaptin M]

A couple of questions for Tan;
How many hours did you fly in the previous 30 days?;
and,
As management pilots are not subject to the same union regulations as line pilots, how many management pilots flew up to, or in excess of, the 84 hours, to alleviate the Company's problems?

[MarkD]

A prolonged outage at YYZ (AF358) is not exactly what AC needs right now - a long(er) night ahead for AC operations surely!

[jammers]

Hey Tan .......Cut the BS and give us your base and your seniority number within let's say 50 numbers and then we can tell were you stand regards
1. Whether you had your careeer handed to you with the standard silver spoon hanging from your neck because of daddy's position in the company.
2. Whether or not you are OAC or blue.
3. Whether or not you are a union boy available to use your abiity to displace line pilots at your desire to avail of the ability to displace fcellow line pilots to suit our BBQ schedule.
4. Yoru seem to be quite well informed with your fellow pilots priviledge to avail of their well earned sick days to use for their personal reasons, whle at the same time express or imply some type of wrong doing..........treading on thin ice ol' chap.....You are simply a disgrace to the AC pilots association and their dedication to impove AC pilots working conditions.........I migt sound a little harsh but if you disagree file a grievance, that seems to me the way you're quite happy to,deal wit things, regardless of negotiated contracts.........Check out RM's share options lately.....you truly are from another planet mate.

[Tan]

jammers

You're in over your head always trying to shift the blame elsewhere looking for excuses, finding it hard to believe that a fellow line pilot could possible disagree with the direction that a small vocal group of pilots has taken. This small group has already jeopardized our future growth by spearheading the rejection of the Boeing order but what I find most sickening is their Prima Donna attitude. Your group is all about what can AC do for me and not what can I do to make my future more secure. You folks have no shame nor display any common sense and I repeat what a mistake my peer group made in its past hiring practices.

I helped built our union and folks like you make me ashamed to be part of it..

[Kaptin M]

"Your group is all about what can AC do for me and not what can I do to make my future more secure."

The non-executive workforce of many airlines worldwide have had good teachers in that regard, Tan - our "management".
How can you blame those lower down the food chain, from following suit?!! :}

[ea340]

Tan
As you are no doubt aware Mr. Milton does not need the union to make the Boeing order. I myself am more worried about the 100 million dollars the top 40 execs are taking out of the company starting October 3rd. money this company needs. These are the same folks who got us in this mess . I think you will find little support for your views with the boys in London all guys who have been around for a long time. The employees made this company and they have paid the price for its survival. In the end as always it's the grunts in the trenches that will make this operation work and I'am proud to be one of them .

EA340

[breguet]

Tan views are the exception amongst AC line pilots and correspond strangely with management's views. As a matter of fact, I have yet to meet a pilot who shares Tan's viewpoint.

Shortage of pilots is simply due to poor planning by management as someone as already written. And I would like to confirm that there was no sick out action done.

[Brianigham]

:{ From Where I come, the flying hour totals for 28 days has gone from 80 to 100 in ONE "Agreement". We are all paying the price of that one GREAT MISTAKE of trusting one pilots union president who had his eyes on management.

He now sits at the highest position inmanagement, while some flout FTLs up to > 1000 hrs in 12 months. This is a top 5 airline mind you.

The airline has been around for > than 50 years, but it seems we are going nowhere,but down. A huge number of pilots have busted the company FTL which is already above CAP371 limits. The pilots in management and the FLT Safety dept and the local CAA(OFFICIALLY) all know about this but all choose to turn a blind eye. tHE "SHARP kNIVES" in management are so loving the little bitsy power pull they have that they cant risk losing their post. in case they speak up to the top dog. It is so bad that when a pilot insist on following the books (FTL), he is often viewed as non cooperative and a trouble maker. A BIG HUGE ACCIDENT IS AROUND THE CORNER. And nobody cares!.,.,.

This is all because we listened to ONE, JUST ONE, pilot who sounded exactly like TAN.

Gents, I am about 170 degrees of longitude away and about 40 degees south of your place but, BS smells the same here.

[Kaptin M]

In my experience with pilot unions, and airline management, there is very, very, small percentage of union reps who use the union as their stepping stone to airline management.
And broadly speaking, those who did, turned out to be "duds" for the airline.

Tan probably qualifies here!
But he's not alone.

Obviously, their perspective on things is quite introverted (but OVER-estimated) from the beginning...me...me.....me. :rolleyes:
A dangling apple, that naieve upper management can't resist - poor fools.

THE very BEST pilot reps stayed with the union, and HELPED the Company by negotiating FAIR DEALS, through MUTUAL AGREEMENT, to the benefit of BOTH parties. :ok:

Union representation is about ACTIVE involvement by the ENTIRE pilot group.

[jammers]

Tan.
I would suggest you take a refesher course in CRM and don't forget to ask your instructor to place special emphasis on 'Freedom of Speech' and 'Human Rights'.......your peer group who did all the hiring back in the time of Jurassic Park were all yes men from the armed forces or enviroments that didn't afford them the priviledge of an opinion............you flatter me by calling the vocal group 'my' group as there are 1000's more ready to rise to the occasion and quash the AC culture founded and exploited by your CALPA pals way back when............before you express your view on future growth you must remember that there are things more important than shereholder value and that is JUSTICE. seniority justice and as long as you ignore that fact this airline will NEVER succeed because the 'small group' LOL as you call are calling the shots now.......AS for myself I am a one man army, I follow my collective agreement to the tee and if that leaves your granny stranded in Regina then take a long hard look at the monsters management has created......your short -sightedness is something that should be looked at at your next medical :p

[pudljumpr]

I have been with AC for 28 years and have never seen such a dismal bunch of toadies,yes men,and incompetents in management.
Flt ops works only because of the loyality we,the pilots, have to the profession ,not due to any loyality we have to the corporation.
It's a common joke when we check in at a layover hotel that some wag will ask you "whats your part number?" for the sign-in sheet, rather than what is your employee number. That says it all right there.

[Kaptin M]

Of course, Tan might just as likely be a disgruntled ground hog (scheduler), who's p!55ed off with "Prima Donna" pilots.
Regardless though, Tan needs to get out and about a bit more.

At an early age, I was brainwashed into believing unions were the "anti-Christ". A belief that stayed with me until early adulthood.
And around that time, I saw the way employers behaved when they no-one to hold them in check, and to PROTECT the employees.

Right now, we are seeing (worldwide) airline management for what they REALLY are.
If you are NOT in the very upper cut of this management Tan, then you will realise what a fool YOU have been played for before too much longer.
A pawn, sacrificed to save an already over-paid bishop!