B777 gear still down after take off?

[silverhawk]

Lunchtime today at MAN a PIA B777 departed and left his gear down. ATC noted this and queried if there was a problem. PIA responded with ' we are following a procedure '

The only procedure I can come up with is a wheel well fire ( land asap ) or a tyre burst, but nothing was reported. Any ideas?

[skibeagle]

ever had a brake unit capped off ? (as in de-activated) ????

[Dani]

not only fire, but also heat, ice and slush are reasons to delay retractions
Maybe brakes were hot?

[Kestrel_909]

Similar thread a few months ago about BA 767 doing this out of Heathrow, have a search.

I can't remember the reasons but it was nothing to worry about.

[WindSheer]

Yeah its usually hot brakes. You sometimes lower the gear after the retraction to cool them.

Although, it could have been a burst wheel etc. What are they going to do, dump fuel and return to MAN, or continue to Pakistan for a precautionary landing. Engineering would be much cheaper there! And after all, a burst wheel would not be classed as an emergency until its time to land!!

[Joe Monsoon]

Hello all from what rember on B767 ADP inop air demand pump for the hydraulic . MEL asks for landing gear down 2 mins after takeoff its cos no auto braking on gear retraction :confused: . Maybe its same on B777:suspect:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Back in the Golden Days I had something similar happen with an Air France Airbus at Heathrow. I said: "your gear is still down". He said: "Affirmative, we use it for the take-off".

[SLT]

I think what skibeagle is getting at, quite correctly, is that they could have had one of their brake units deactivated. In this case, procedures will vary slightly, but in general the wheel in question won't be braked on gear retraction as it normally would be. So you leave them down for a bit (2 minutes if memory serves) to allow the wheel to slow down a bit before you retract the gear, as described above by Joe.

Cheers all

[Human Factor]

The nose-wheel "snubbers" were u/s most probably. You have to leave the gear down for two minutes to allow the wheels to spin down, rather than rubbing against the non-existent "snubbers". It kills performance.

[Cerberus]

They might have forgotten them, wouldn't be the first time!

Eeeek:eek:

[SamKitch]

Hi

I saw that incident, quite scary actually!!

Sam

[CosmosSchwartz]

Yeah, the procedure for gear pins still in;) :} (I'm joking, I know nothing of the incident!)

Heathrow Director - Excellent! Not enought of that kind of banter on the RT nowadays if you ask me:sad:

[oxide]

I've seen a few GFA A320's do something like it here on Oman OOMS .. I thought it was quite strange at first. But the response I got from the pros was .. "Hotwheels" :}

[GotTheTshirt]

Sam
"scary"
were you in the cockpit or the cabin or the tower or the airport fence or just driving by in you car ?

[Compass Call]

Sam

What is "Quite scary actually" about an aircraft flying with it's gear down? This is normal for aircraft, especially after take-off and before landing :confused:


CC

[SamKitch]

Chaps

Its the first time id seen something like that, so when you see an aircraft that takes off normally and retracts the landing gear after a few secounds and then you get an other aircraft that hasnt put the landing gear up for a good 3-4 minutes.

Ye it is quite scary, ill agree that scary is probably the wrong word but i was in a hurry.

So to who i have offended. sorry

Sam

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

As long as the take-off's been calculated to account for the increased drag from leaving the gear down longer, shouldn't be anything to worry about. Unless near the WAT limit, 'flexing' or obstacle-limited, of course. Then it might be more interesting....

[Bart O'Lynn]

Pia have had a spate of fires due to the incorrect grease being used. When this was happening they left the gear down for a while after take off. Could be related to this or something similar.
As an aside, i watched a pia 747 depart 24l at man (cool evening, wind down the runway) whilst out running along the footpaths. they rotated well into the touchdown zone of 6r and struggled in the air. couldnt have been more than 1000 feet when turning to the east on the desig departure.( i.e very wide right downwind position) Normally loaded aircraft usually about 3/5 grand at that point.

Only a matter of time. Stretching the use of standard weights to incredible levels i'd wager, looking at the reality of the baggage at their checkin.

[mach 84]

in case you have one or two brakes deavtivated, you have to leave the gear extended after T/O for a minimum of 2 minutes. this is to let the wheel spin down before retracting.
having brakes deactivated has also heavy penalties on T/O performance, with one deactivated you loose about 5 tons with two almost 10 tons.

[Max Angle]

As long as the take-off's been calculated to account for the increased drag from leaving the gear down longer No need to change the take-off figures. The whole thing is based on an engine failing at V1, if that engine is still runnning past V1 you will meet the required climb gradients and clearances easily even with the gear down, if a engine fails whilst the gear is down you would select it up anyway. There are however big penalties for departing with the gear locked down which is a different situation.

[mutt]

No need to change the take-off figures

Thats incorrect according to the B777 AFM and MEL, if the aircraft departs with brakes capped or removed, the complete takeoff phase is planned with the gear down, the takeoff figures therefore change.

Bart O'Lynn.

You are obviously not used to watching classic B747's taking off!

Mutt.

[Bart O'Lynn]

Mutt,
It wasnt a classic. It was a 400 and after 17 years in africa watching overladen aicraft depart I am more than qualified to tell when a company is taking the p1ss.
What are you doing out of the middleeast forum anyway. There are outsiders to slate , now get back there at once;)

[Human Factor]

If I remember correctly, leaving the gear down quite seriously affects second segment climb (certainly looks like it from the pointy end!! :uhoh: ), possibly even the third.

I've had this out of LHR and the performance is reduced so much that the RTOW is reduced from 267 tons to 220 tons. Makes a hell of a racket as well!!

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Bart

PIA have no B747-400 in fleet only
B747 200 and 300s but yes they do make you wonder sometimes and the one last night was very low over Stockport
( probably about 1500-2000) on departure

Out of interest there were two B777 that delayed putting their gear up until late yesterday and both PIA

G-I-B

[mutt]

Bart,

Discussions in ME forum are a little "deep" at the moment, so I came out to play :):)

Searched www.airliners.net for PIA B747-400 pictures in Manchester, there were no hits. There are pictures of Classics... So not really sure what you were looking at in Africa, but I dont think that they were -400's.... :):):):)

Now i will go back to the sandpit....

Mutt

[giovane]

I also saw the aircraft with its gear down for some time after take off. ( didn't see it go up )

If it was planned prior to departure it would be normal to advise ATC of the case before take off.

Luckily it wasn't a MIRSI departure or they could of found the wheels missing when they arrived at Islamabad !!
:ok:

[None]

> Joe Monsoon wrote: Hello all from what rember on B767 ADP inop air demand pump for the hydraulic . MEL asks for landing gear down 2 mins after takeoff its cos no auto braking on gear retraction . Maybe its same on B777


I don't see this for the 767. Here is what I see:


29-11-03 Air Driven Pump (ADP)

(M)(O) May be inoperative provided:

a) Hydraulic Motor Generator (HMG) is not required,

b) Both center system electric pumps operate
normally, and

c) Appropriate performance adjustments are applied.
EICAS STATUS MESSAGES NONE


29-11-03 ADP Switch Air Driven Hydraulic Pump INOP
NOTE: HMG is required for ETOPS routes if an IDG or APU generator is inoperative. HMG is not required for non-ETOPS.

(O) PROCEDURES
NOTE: During periods of high demand, C HYD SYS PRESS caution message and C HYD SYS MAINT status message may display. If the center hydraulic system pressure remains below 2800 psi for 60 seconds or more, with both engines running, then the C HYD SYS MAINT message will latch.

1. With the ADP inoperative, the landing gear retraction/extension times will increase to approximately 2½
times normal. Landing GEAR DISAGREE message may display.

2. Flap retraction and extension times will increase approximately 30%.

3. When the ADP is OFF, the HMG will be dropped offline during high hydraulic demand (landing gear, flaps). The HMG will operate normally on the center electric pumps during low hydraulic demand.

[silverhawk]

It was a 777.

Thanks for the info. Every day is a day at school.

[FearlessFreep]

This gear down thing is probably a PIA procedure thing. After having seen numerous northbound takeoffs out of OMDB flying past downtown I have noticed just about all PIA aircraft that takeoff have the gear down up to at least 2000'. At times I have seen them fade out of view and it still appeared that the gear was down. This was on Boeing and Airbus products. (I think PIA has some Airbuses)

[Low-Pass]

Didn't see it so I don't know how long the gear was down for. However, if memory serves, flying with your gear down is a signal of unlawful interferance (i.e. hijack?) , so well done to ATC for asking.

LP

[Bart O'Lynn]

I stand corrected, but it was still more like an antonov off a 40'celcius strip than a perf A aircraft operating in the first world , despite its origins. But lets not allow performance to intefere with Manchesters profits, ...until Knutsford or stockport disappear;)

[PIA747]

PIA has 12 A310s. BHX is the only UK airport they touch.

[TURIN]

It was a main gear brake deactivated due to wear limits having been reached. Brake was deactivated at Base due to being nil stock!!!:uhoh:

[mutt]

Turin....

Why did you have to ruin this topic with "facts"..... a departure with an MEL requiring the gear to remain down, just isnt scary enough...:):)


Mutt

[CathayPacific]

Probably to cool the gears down a bit.

[Earthmover]

On a (vaguely) similar subject - and to follow up HEATHROW DIRECTOR's banter - he may remember a BA Tristar at the hold of 28L (it was that long ago) behind a Cessna 310 who was about to line up ... Helpful 1011 pilot says ...

"Golf Alpha Bravo fom Speedbird 123, you appear to have your steps still down"

"Oh, thanks very much Speedbird, but actually they retract with the wheels"

"Blimey, do you get passengers changing their minds that late??!!"

Love it :D