Pay As You Dine has emptied the Dining Room(Of diners) [Archive]

mbga9pgf

28th Jul 2005, 13:04

I think you will find the minority moaned and the brass didnt do an adequate survey. Why should they? another area to cut costs.

I am bl**dy sick of the idea of PAYD, as are the vast majority of Livers in, many of whom see this as yet another attack on our standard of living and our way of life. Well mark my words, they will never ever be able to stop any Officer carrying a crate of lager or bottle of their own wine into the bar and consuming it at half of the cost of what it will cost once PAYD not only destroys the dining room, but also the bar as well. Oh yes, before I forget, once PAYD takes over the bar, forget any subsidies towards the summer ball (massive reduction in subsidy if any) and rediculous function prices. This will kill the messes.

Why oh why, seeing the trials at Leuchars and Henlow have not gone swimmingly, have we continued to persue this junk? Or is it due to cost savings the scheme will realize? The original request, as I remember it from the moaners was to have a sheet to sign on a nightly basis to declare whether meals had been taken; NOT for our bar to be robbed and be charged for individual portions of bread, butter and the such. They have turned our messes into a chain of McChav. :ugh: :yuk: :yuk: :ugh:

southside

28th Jul 2005, 13:30

Didn't do an adequate survey..???? are you bonkers? PAYD has been trialed for years. It was first mooted in 1971. Is that not adequate enough for you? It has then been in service and working perfectly since 2002. How much longer would you like?

I am bl**dy sick of the idea of PAYD ???? yep, you are bonkers.

PAYD IS NOT the whim of some senior guru looking for promotion. PAYD is being introduced because that is what people want. It is what was asked for.

mbga9pgf

28th Jul 2005, 14:13

.Never would suit me fine. And if its such a popular idea, why are we not being allowed a vote from the mess membership as to its introduction? (typically a 2/3 vote would be required)

Last time I checked, the mess was NON PUBLIC (IE hands off).

Oh yes, tell me, where exactly are business supposed to make profit from such a hair-brained scheme? From charging 5p for a slice of bread, or ramping bar prices to their maximum allowed? I suspect the latter, it is this issue that particularly worries me.

Just so we dont get our wires crossed, I am not talking about supplementary bills for lunches etc, which functions well. I am talking about the farce that is going on in numerous messes as a pre-rollout to some crackpot scheme, including having to swipe cards for your food (silver service?) and being pounced on like a criminal for requesting an extra slice of bread or an item which is not "core menu".

If the survey was carried out as long ago as the'70's, I suggest you check current sentiment, because ffrom as far as I have experienced, there is not exactly a majority supporting this scheme. Furthermore, as it appears you are of the dark blue persuasion, may I suggest that the light blue experience of the scheme may not have been as well recieved.

.PAYD IS NOT the whim of some senior guru looking for promotion. PAYD is being introduced because that is what people want. It is what was asked for.

Well maybe the minority asked for it, but it is some civil servant jobsworth that is self-justifying their existence by introducing this tosh. And as far I can see, what was asked for is a long way from what we got.

JTIDS

28th Jul 2005, 14:16

Working perfectly???

Have you been to Leuchars or Culdrose? Mess life has been destroyed in both places, with people at Culdrose all seeming to eat in the Datum, and at Leuchars in the service station like Cafe behind the mess. Whether people wanted it originally, surely now the truth has been seen its time to abandon what were meant to be experiments and test cases, and go back to the old system.

apologies for spelling as ever.

buoy15

28th Jul 2005, 15:07

Southside, bonny lad - you mentioned 'moaning' - surely the RN expression is 'dripping' ?

Do you chaps still get bread & dripping sarnies when you go off-watch prior to hot bedding in a warm, smelly cabin?

Have you still got those disgusting "transit cabins" on shore bases for visiting aircrew and VIP's ?

Had a good day at Culdrose in the Wardroom and flying in a Merlin, circa Jun 2000

southside

28th Jul 2005, 17:06

with people at Culdrose all seeming to eat in the Datum, and at Leuchars in the service station like Cafe behind the mess ....erm, thats the purpose of PAYD...durr !!!

mbga9pgf

28th Jul 2005, 17:39

Well I hate to point it out, Durrr but most of the mess members are happy with cheap food and silver service as opposed to McChav on base :mad:

Matrix Marauder

29th Jul 2005, 07:36

I hate to say it but we did all complain about paying for meals that we were not eating (old system), and to be honest the Culdrose mess had died long before PAYD took over, it was the removal of squadrons and the ‘youth’ wishing to go down town to bars rather than stay for happy hour. Life is changing we cannot just expect everything to stay the same (as much as we would like it to!). Some people said it was the requirement to wear a jacket and tie that is killing the mess, look at all the people who dive in for early meals! PAYD is not perfect but can not be solely blamed for the killing of mess life.
I hate it because I can not pay with my mess number!!!

mbga9pgf

29th Jul 2005, 09:25

My point is, we asked for a scheme very similar to the one we have already, IE you sign a slip and you can still eat what you want, instead of paying for anything outside of core menu. Instead, someone has seen it as an opportunity to completely mess up the way we live. I certainly have not heard of many complaining about the "old" scheme, and I am fairly new to the services. I really dont think its the "youth" that ARE the problem. I do get the impression that at some stations, for inexplicable reasons, mess life is dead. I would suggest that may be the result of poor ents rather than unfavourability of the old scheme. But back to my other original point, if this IS so popular, why are the messes not allowed a vote as it is such a major change? We vote on everything else. Plus, the messes fall under non-public accounts.

LuckyBreak

29th Jul 2005, 10:22

Did anyone else read last week that PAYD is being 'put on hold' (ie. scrapped) for all RAF bases in the imminent future. Not sure about Navy tho.....

SteveStephens

29th Jul 2005, 13:11

Here we go again with the endless moaning about PAYD, you might wish to refer to last thread on this. While I agree that it is far from perfect you have to look at it as a whole issue. Prior to implementation of PAYD only 50% of personnel took their meals in Messes. Therefore, 50% of personnel must now be happy with PAYD because they do not have to pay for meals they do not eat. As for the rest, well its a partnership and if your Contractor does not provide what you want, then there is no profit for either side. There needs to be more dialogue from both sides. As a final point, if PAYD is so bad does that mean MACs are good?

HEDP

29th Jul 2005, 16:38

For what it is worth the same issues are being raised at the Green sites as well. Some very senior officers writing to express their displeasure and that of their commands regarding PAYD.

It doesn't mean that because 50% were unhappy with the old arrangments that they will be happy with PAYD. Quite the opposite as I would guage a higher proportion are unhappy with PAYD. A solution was needed but perhaps this is not it. Why could you not just pay for the meals you attended under the original arrangements?

Soldiers are reported to be unable to eat as they spend their money by halfway through the month and I have heard reports of the posibility of malnutrition rearing its head. Bizarre I know. Self discipline, but this is perhaps what some of our younger charges lack in this day and age. Combine this with individual rooms and the lads are no looking after each other as a team and tend to operate in social isolation that can lead to this situation.

HEDP

WE Branch Fanatic

29th Jul 2005, 20:37

Last week I was on a course at RN establishment, and ate in a galley where visiting personnel simply entered their details (name, rate, service number, unit etc) and ticked which meals they took there. Surely this sort of arrangement would prevent people from being billed for meals they don't attend?

The Rocket

30th Jul 2005, 00:52

Exactly WEBF,

And that is why I cannot see the problem with PAYD.

Sure, a few hardcore mess enthusiasts who eat 3 meals a day in there every day might complain, but the VAST MAJORITY, including myself when I lived in the mess, resent paying for meals that we do not eat.

Why should people pay good money for a meal on friday night that they are not eating. Three meals on Saturday that are not being eaten, and then three further meals on Sunday that they do not eat?

mbga9pgf,

If you really do want to eat a Silver Service meat and vegetable meal every single night of the week, may I be the first to suggest that there may be something wrong with you? Me, and most of the people I work with, fancy from time to time a curry, a kebab(Pardon me) a chinese etc.... and would appreciate not having to pay for a meal in the mess at the same time.

Yes I appreciate that prices in the bar may go up slightly, but is that not a small price to pay for not being charged for all those meals that we are not eating in the mess?
Especially seeing as you so angrily state that "You will never stop an Officer from bringing his own crate of lager/Bottle of wine into the mess?"

Unfortunately this is not the RAF of the 1960's and as Southside correctly stated, People have asked for PAYD, and the people that have asked for it have by far and away outweighed the moaning lifelong mess members such as yourself

Of course, you're probably a really funny "out there" guy really:yuk:

BigGrecian

30th Jul 2005, 10:09

It has then been in service and working perfectly since 2002.

Someone needs to do some research. I do not know one person who is happy with PAYD. The idea was good in principle and I agree that people shouldn't have to pay for 3 meals a day they might not eat, but the way it has been implemented? I know people who will argue its case on this but they all agree it has a larger negative affect than positive. It has destroyed mess life and made people unwilling to live in the mess. The majority are unfortunately very unhappy with PAYD!

winglessone

30th Jul 2005, 11:01

The idea of PAYD is great, but the way they've implemented it is absolutely terrible.

If you paid for your meal, and then where able to eat/drink as much as before then I think most of the arguments would dissappear. The problem is that the contractors have taken PAYD to mean every constituent part of the meal, ie each rasher of bacon/sausage/glass of OJ for breakfast, as a chargable item. With smaller portions being served you need to add extra items at 7 or 8p a shot to make the meal what it used to be. That seems small, but quickly builds up over time and means an increase in what we spend (if we use the mess for every meal).

If its just treated as a restaurant then the system works great, but isnt the mess meant to be home and not a hotel?

Roguedent

30th Jul 2005, 11:07

After a nice stay at RAF Halton recently, PAYD has already eroded all mess atmosphere that was left. All people do is moan about it. In principle PAYD is a good idea, but the grey areas don't seem to have been looked at. I agree with some of the posts here that Summer Balls etc.. will have to find money from other sources. As for the big Stns, Brize Norton and the majority of RAF bases have had PAYD for lunch for years. There was no problem. I have heard (correct me if I am wrong) but total PAYD at Brize has been looked at, but shelved, as the company wanted to run the bars as well. This obviously meant all Sqn bars would have to close!! Yeah right, they wound just go under ground. In the end I hope PAYD falls flat on its Ar$e, as a liver in, I like the atmosphere at the mo, I believe total PAYD would destroy that!!! :{ :{ :ok:

SirToppamHat

30th Jul 2005, 22:14

From what I saw during recent visits to other messes, PAYD varies in its implementation.

PAYD is fine in principle, and might be OK for mess members if it applied only to the dining, but in some places it is actually being implemented as 'Pay As You Mess'. It is not self-financing, so the bean counters are having to offer other mess services as potential 'cash cows' to make the tender process attractive (or even possible). I am, in particular, referring to the Bar being handed over to the likes of Eurest and SerCo, and the ability to charge whatever they like for Dinner Nights (staff gratuities?).

How long before cleaning becomes an added extra?

STH

Pontius Navigator

31st Jul 2005, 14:20

At the risk of travelling old ground, PAYD was introduced at Luqa in 1974. You paid for everything, pat of butter, slice of bread etc but only at lunch. This then set the pattern that has existed in in all the RAF messes that I have visited since. Breakfast and Dinner are within the daily 'core' menu and lunch is at cost. True the livers-in still pay for the Friday night and Saturday/Sunday core that they do not eat.

But where confusion arises is the use of the phrase PAYD.

What we had from 1974 was OLD PAYD. What we have now is NEW PAYD. The two are chalk and cheese.

What we wanted was OLD PAYD where, as a liver-in, you did not pay for the 5 weekend meals that you might miss.

NEW PAYD is an entirely different beast. NEW PAYD is a Private Finance Initiative to provide bars, coffee shops, airmen's clubs, canteens, messing etc all within a capped profit margin.

This is then delivered not per unit but per group of units. The contractors are thus asked to bid for a group of units for the next N years and the liklihood that some of them will close in the next year or two or their populations will change drastically.

The reason for the hold is simply that no contractor would bid for a contract involving, say Leeming, when we do not know the future of RAF Leeming in the RAF ORBAT.

So remember NEW PAYD has b*gg*r all to do with allowing the squaddie not to pay for meals he does not eat and is everything to do with allowing the contractor to run coffee bars, feeders, etc.

Why not go the US route and let B*gg*r K*ng run a fast-food joint? Why not run a system, again US, where the core facility serves 'tea' from 5-6 but is then let to another group to run from say 7-10. The latter could serve food that people want when they want it and employ 'self-help' staff.

One problem of course is the minimum wage and income tax which would stop moonlighting at low wages.

Roland Pulfrew

1st Aug 2005, 14:46

Gents

A while ago (Mar/Apr 04? IIRC) there was a long topic on PAYD, which discussed at length the pros and cons. At the time many of the contractors bidding for PAYD were beginning to realise that there was not enough profit to be had from the catering only side (our infrastructure in many cases is too old and the companies have to spend loads to get the kitchens etc up to scratch before they can even start selling food). Henlow and Leuchars were up and running and living-in members were voting with their feet. I believe it took Henlow over 18 months before it returned a profit – not exactly likely to keep the shareholders happy!?! Ask anyone who lives in or who has visited what he or she thinks of the standards of food!! Is this because they have had to cut quality and quantity to make a profit? The contractors started to realise that one of the ways of making a profit was by taking over all bars on station and any rival catering outlets.

With the bars (and remember this may include Sqn bars and possibly even flt / sqn / regt tea bars, anywhere that there is “competition”) the contractor sees the opportunity of boosting the meagre, and reducing? profits from the catering. The plan would be for the contractor to set prices and then split the profits 4 ways (depending upon the number of messes on base) - one unit for the contractor, one unit for the O's Mess, one unit for the SNCO's Mess, one unit for the Junior Rank's Mess, and one unit for the contractor. Therefore if you live on a base with a disproportionate number of members in one particular mess the most profitable will be subsiding the least profitable and all will be subsidising the contractor and his shareholders!! :mad: Bar profits will need to go up (for the contractor to make his share of the profit, and it may not be a small increase!). Bar usage will probably decline because one of the benefits of “our Mess” is we set the profits, so we can keep the profits as low, or as high, as we want. Want an example? Cost price of a barrel of beer is about £55 – 60 + VAT depending upon supplier, 88 pints to a barrel, selling price in the Mess bar £1 to £1.50 depending upon GPP, selling price on the high street £2 – 3 per pint depending upon location. Reduced bar profits due to reduced usage equals less subsidy to other functions (remember we actually get some of our profit back). Profits will also be split amongst the other messes so the chances of your particular mess subsiding functions, such as a Summer Ball, will also be reduced. Therefore Mess functions become more expensive and yet another nail goes into the coffin! Now we have lost our dining rooms, our bars become less attractive and our functions get more expensive – great, a step forward! Remember as well if you put on a ‘leaving barrel’ or a promotion barrel your Sqn will probably charge you cost price, but if you HAVE to buy that through the PAYD Contractor you will be paying commercial rates! Another nail in the coffin of service life?

Sadly for all those young livers-in who always complain about paying for meals they do not take (I am guilty I was one of those young livers-in once) the way forward has been for PAYD (or Save As You Starve). Unfortunately the ultimate consequences HAVE NOT BEEN THOUGHT THROUGH!

This will be the death of Messes yet another bit of Service Ethos (which our Airships, Generalships and Admiralships bang on about but never actually protect) will be destroyed probably never to return. I understand that the PAYD roll-out has been stopped in HMFC, so it is not too late, but don’t hold your breath. And to those who say they would rather go out and eat a curry, or a kebab, that is of course great if you happen to be stationed in an area close to a large town or civilisation. The cost of doing that every night will soon add up to a lot more than the 7-days a week food charge! If you want to eat in fast-food restaurant every night of the week, then I suggest you watch the TV programme “Super-size me”. I for one do not!

LFFC

1st Aug 2005, 15:56

Unfortunately the ultimate consequences HAVE NOT BEEN THOUGHT THROUGH!
How very true - but sadly that's a reoccurring theme these days.

Whether it's the rush towards new catering, new pensions, rationalisation, re-organisation or even PPP/PFI deals for the provision of military capability or training, the full impact of decisions just does not seem to be grasped or understood!

What's worse is that we seem to be pushed into some of these decisions as a result of earlier decisions that had not been thought through either. It's like a very big snowball that's rolling down the hill and getting bigger and faster by the minute! But fortunately, when they see it coming towards them, most very senior officers standing at the bottom of the hill seem to be able to step aside at the last minute.

EXATCO

1st Aug 2005, 16:13

To add to all the woe regarding PAYD:(

The Charity Commission is reviewing all organisations that claim charitable status - I believe that RAF Units and Messes received some benefit from this. Not being a :mad: bean-counter, I nevertheless believe that this will impinge with yet more financial penalties on the Messes and their inmates.

I sincerely hope that I'm wrong ... perhaps there's someone who might put the record straight.

16 blades

1st Aug 2005, 18:31

I have heard horror stories from one unit where PAYD has been introduced - apparently communal kitchenettes and similar cooking facilities have been removed at the behest of the contractor, and moves are afoot to ban livers-in from having microwaves in their rooms. If true, this is nothing short of an abuse, although I must say I'm not entirely surprised. It's not the first time the heirarchy have sold us down the river to cover up an abject f**k-up.

My advice - should this not be stopped in its tracks as it should be - would be a complete boycott of ANYTHING run by these contractors. They will probably get away with destroying our long traditional methods of dining, since there are always other options and they will soon get the message when the dining rooms of messes up and down the country empty out.

HOWEVER - a word of warning to anybody involved in administering this fiasco- If you attempt to f**k with Sqn bars, YOU WILL HAVE A SH*TSTORM ON YOUR HANDS.

Having said that, they can always go underground and be stocked with duty free, or by other commercial methods.

Remember, contractors, your profits will be in our hands. WE are your ONLY customers - its not as if you can put signs up outside camp and attract more in. Piss us off, and you will be out of business. If you raise bar prices, we will simply bring our own booze into the bar from other sources and drink it under your noses, and there will be NOTHING you can do about it - it is NOT a pub that you can run as you see fit, it is OUR bar, regardless of who runs it - it belongs to the mess members, and always will.

Think about that before you bid for contracts.

16B

BEagle

1st Aug 2005, 21:04

Normally I take anything 16B says with a pinch of salt (£0.03 plus VAT at a contractor run Mess near you), however, on this occasion he is absolutely right!

The last time I 'existed' (I hesitate to say 'lived') in an Officers' Mess was 1984. I used to get annoyed about paying extra messing for meals I didn't eat; for example, have breakfast on Monday, luncheon on Tuesday and dinner on Wednesday and you paid 3 days' extra messing. Have all the meals on just 1 day and you paid only 1 day's extra messing.

Then there was a breakfast at RAF Wattisham which I well remember a couple of years earlier. The Stn PEdO was attacking a quivering mound of dead pig and egg with all the extras. Cost to him, being a beanstealer? Nothing. Sat next to him was a delightfully petite Air Traffickerette who was nibbling a piece of toast. Cost to her? A full day's messing plus extra messing. What utter bolleaux!

The problem is entirely down to the creeping cancer of contractorisation and lack of firm direction. They should be booted firmly up their corporate jacksies and TOLD what to provide!

Not my problem any more as mere civilian filth. But if I had to suffer such nonsense, I'd walk into the dining room and pick up a plate and some cutlery, then set up my barbi' on the grass in front of the mess. When I'd finished, I'd dump the dirty crockery and cutlery on a dining room table for the thieving contractor to wash up. (If it was raining, then I'd use an electric wok in the dining room instead of the barbi')..

Which utter f***wit allowed 'pay as you dine' to be implemented in such a ridiculous way?

allan907

2nd Aug 2005, 03:24

Beagle the utter f**kwits who implemented the scheme were members of the GD Branch - I know, I was at MOD at the time. So please, no more talk about blunties and beancounters!

But to be fair - MOD were telling people (via the AMPLT tours) that it would bite everyone on the bum if it were introduced but there were too many people out there who couldn't see beyond their nibbled piece of toast to see the big picture. Ergo, the decision makers caved in to the popular vote. Ah well, that's democracy for you.

This all seems to be similar to the "thin tie" debacle. Ties used to be of a reasonable width and then came the civvy fashion for thin ties. AMPLT teams were beseiged with moans about the width of ties and after a few years eventually the width of ties were changed to a thinner version. Yep, you've guessed it. By the time that contracts were let and the ties introduced into clothing stores the fashion had come around full circle and wider ties were now being called for.

Pontius Navigator

2nd Aug 2005, 08:38

Allan907 you are right but the fact remains that Beags is too.

What we wanted was NOT to pay for what we did not get.

What they are getting is the right to PAY for everything inside the wire at outside prices.

I was in a MOD canteen the other day. Only reason it ran out of food was the London bombing that advised people to stay in the building. The food was c**p but cheaper than outside.

What PAYD will provide is either cheap c**p or expensive outside quality and prices. As the profit is limited by contract you can guess which will be top dog. (Beef too expensive).

BTW, the cas allowance for food for a police dog is about 3 times the allowance for the handler.

Feneris

2nd Aug 2005, 09:12

For those who are lucky enough not to have experienced PAYD, here's what it's like in the Wardroom. It's just like a Litte Chef or Motorway Services Cafe. You walk through the servery and choose what you'd like to eat. At the far end there's a lady sat at a till who checks what you've chosen (toast / no toast etc), types it into the till and you pay her cash (or swipe card). The ethos of the people who work here is the same as in a Motorway Cafe. No pride in the establishment what-so-ever, it's just a cheap cafe to them. I'm looking forward to being back on board to enjoy service by peope who care/understand service ethos and every penny isn't counted.

Need for Speed!

2nd Aug 2005, 09:20

With my age and financial state I have a good few years of living in to do before I buy the first Speed Estate.

I would much rather pay a regular mess charge to retain the mess atmosphere and quality of service than only be charged for the service that I use, if it means sacrificing the quality of the service.

I think there is one recurring theme coming out in this thread… We need a happy medium. Mr Beags hit the nail on the head – as long as the service is being contracted out to a profit making organisation, we are not going to find that happy medium. :(

NFS

Stax

2nd Aug 2005, 11:30

Gents, for once I am not slagging off the officer corps. However from the tone of the posts here most of you are from the commisioned class. Let me assure you if you think you have it bad in your dining room's check out the lad's. Just returned from Halton where the WO & Sgts dining room resembles a "Happy Eater" complete with tills. As a "phase 3" trainee I was entitled to the core menu FOC. However by the time the food police had served me it was hardly worth the wait! I am not a big eater at the moment due to a training regime but I had to bring loads of fruit from home as it is not on the core menu. The JNCO's on our course were treated like children in the mess and to cap it all, although they were in one of the new super blocks, the kitchens were locked! How's that for choice. Peg's burger van is still there but now she works for ESS (however she hasn't put her prices up Hoorah!) and the "butty van" is also run by ESS, wheres the choice! The problem is, the PAYD as we have it now is not what people wanted, they wanted money back for not eating. So why not put in leave passes as "not required for duty" at weekends and let PSF (or JPA) work out how much you get back. Bottom line, no one sat the whingers down and pointed out the reason they were fed so well (when they were there) was because not everyone went to every meal, therefore the chefs were able to use their £2.50 (ish) a day to give an excellent service for the money. If you want to see the proof go the Brize Nortons airmens mess, as I did recently, and see the superb service and excellent food the service caterers give.

Widger

2nd Aug 2005, 12:09

IMHO the fundamental issue is that the MOD has a responsibility to ensure that it's "troops" are fed correctly. Just the same as they provide Medical and Dental cover, nutrition is just as important if not more. If airman/soldiers/sailors are not eating correctly then they cannot possibly be at their fighting peak. Our men and women should not have the choice of not eating/eating cr@p. One of the worst things I have seen is women living on Pot Noodle and Irn Bru. Then we wonder why our people are de-motivated and have no energy.

I freely admit that a well run organisation can have a superb facility but Jack/Percy/Cyril will always rather spend his/her cash on beer instead. Take the money at source and they have less option.

plans123

2nd Aug 2005, 13:16

Quite possibly a simplistic view (sometimes the best view I find..) I eat in the mess maybe twice a month and settle up on my mess bill at the end of the month. It takes 1 maybe 2 mess clerks to sort out the bills each month, why not the same for the Junior Ranks?
I spent time on a course about 6 months ago with a Catering Clerk (I thought they'd all gone, but there you go) involved in PAYD. He said the concept was good, but it was failing at implementation - and that’s coming form someone who's job it is to get it working!!.

Someone who wears alot of scrambled egg should start to think about getting Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsey in to sort this mess out. :D

Davey Stott

2nd Aug 2005, 16:05

Quote:
Someone who wears alot of scrambled egg should start to think about getting Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsey in to sort this mess out.

I think someone has. Over the last month at the RAF's premier rotary base, Celeb chefs have been providing reciepies for the A'la carte menu.

Last week Gordon Ramsey was the celeb. I must congratulate the mess staff on replicating his signature dish, 'Chicken F**king Tikka'. It was very nice. :ok:
Strangely, this week Jamie Oliver is providing the menu!!

BigGrecian

2nd Aug 2005, 17:42

Celeb chefs have been providing reciepies for the A'la carte menu.

Is this for real? Is it for some kind of TV show?

plans123

2nd Aug 2005, 18:40

So does the RAF's premier rotary base have RAF Slop Jockies in all of its messes or is it contractorised?
Personally, I've always found our Slop Jockies provide a better menu than A.N Contractor.

plans123

4th Aug 2005, 03:55

Some people on this topic have pointed out that PAYD was what we, the consumers, requested.

This is to some extent true. Those people at bases/units where the catering became private and dispensed with service chefs are the ones who have requested it.

This is because the civilian companies who took over tried to provide the cheapest service they could get away with and as a result the quality of food and standard of food preparation dropped immensely. Therefore people stop eating and resent paying for poor food that they only eat occasionally.

However, if you go to units where you still find service chefs you will find a completely opposing view. I don't know if anyone's eaten at Kinloss recently but the food is out of this world!

I personally believe that people are prepared to pay...providing the food is worth paying for...I would even pay more here at my unit if it meant we returned to a Service catered mess and the food was raised to Kinloss standard!

I leave you with a little known fact...a large percentage of the money we contribute to our food charges per month actually goes on feeding those on OOA detachments. This is one of the main reasons why PAYD has been suspended as they do not know where they will get the money to feed those out of area...that and the fact that the system doesn't bl00dy work! Now I don't know what the rest of you think but if the government want us to go to war that's one thing...but paying for it as well?...I think that's a bit much!

Blacksheep

4th Aug 2005, 04:30

Feeding the military should be done by the military, for the military as it always traditionally was done. All living-in personnel should be fed by military cooks using the unit's own allocated ration allowance. There is a reason why the military were always provided with rations out of the military budget and that reason has never changed.

An army still marches on its stomach.

Stax mentions Halton. I was there not long ago for a reunion. We were treated to a snack in what we knew as No.2 Wing Apprentices Mess and were amazed to find it looked and smelled exactly as it did all those years ago. The officers mess has on the other hand, deteriorated considerably. Its just a crumbling old ruin today. The once beautiful and atmospheric dining room is a shambles and the bar simply isn't fit to drink in. A 'Happy Eater' would perhaps, be something of an improvment.

Pontius Navigator

4th Aug 2005, 07:13

Adding to Plans123, a large Typhoon base somewhere in eastern England also serves superb food. They just put out a bulletin saying the the large Tornado Interceptor base also has PAYD problems and that the whole issue is back in the melting pot to consider decoupling messing (mandatory) from leisure (optional).

What I said earlier about OPAYD (people want) and NPAYD (that people wanted because they thought it was OPAYD)

PPRuNeUser0211

4th Aug 2005, 18:26

PAYD definately does suck! Had the pleasure of two weeks at a fighter jock base "somewhere north of a large golf course" and was ready to slit my wrists by the end of it! We were sure by the end of it that mess staff had mis-interpreted the concept of PAYD, because, especially at breakfast, if you chose one item that wasn't "core menu" you had to pay for the rest of the food at the non-core menu rate as well! SOP at brekkie was for everyone to order their permitted 5 core menu items (no more!) regardless of whether they intended to eat it or not, because the servings were so small! Everybody puts their unused bits on a plate in the middle, then the rest help themselves!

Crazy concept. As has been said many times already, all we wanted was to tick when we ate and when we didnt, none of this "core menu vs non core menu" stuff!

Guy Willesley

22nd Aug 2005, 22:13

Just come back from a works trip to St Andrews. I don't expect much from messes; just a bed slightly narrower than my shoulders, central heating that only works in summer, a shower that doesn't get hot or fast enough, a few unnecessarily leather chairs in ante-rooms and an overused bar to help you ignore it all.

But a PAYD breakfast really was an unwelcome surprise. Having a portion of OJ measured out then served to me, butter and jam being optional extras with a slice of toast and the whole ar$e of 'core menu' items where I'm sure some poor to$$er has to count out the number of beans that are served should you ever be bothered to order them.

Dinner the night before away from the mess (downtown from a chippy) was much better. But I suppose that's the point ..... :(

mbga9pgf

22nd Aug 2005, 22:32

Well, you have to give it to those plonker adminers that sold the mess soul to some corporation

It brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "Bean counting!"

SteveStephens

23rd Aug 2005, 13:32

mbga9pgf

So tell me who on the Defence Management Board is an adminer? After all that is where the direction has come from.

Steve

Bob Viking

23rd Aug 2005, 14:25

Time to add my two pen'th to the argument.
I haven't read the whole thread cos it got a bit samey so at the risk of repeating other peoples sentiments I think PAYD is (or should be) a great system.
I moved out of the mess last year but was always thoroughly irritated by the amount of money I spent on meals I never ate. The main reason for my complaint was the completely inflexible meal times. I don't like to eat at 6 o clock and would prefer eating much later. The trouble with that is you end up with two hour old slops unfit for human consumption.
I think this all stems from the fact that there are now companies making money from our messes and they don't like PAYD because it erodes their profit margins.
If PAYD was given a fair crack I think meals should cost a little more and actually be cooked FRESH (ok roast meats/veggies being the exception) and to order, with a limited menu. I have lost count of the number of times I went into the mess and was mildly excited by the prospect of a Sirloin/Fillet only to be presented with something vaguely resembling Ghandi's flip flop!
It obviously didn't happen like that and so PAYD was not really trialled properly.
Hope that made some sense.
Not really sure how the RAF ever stood legally when you were ordered to pay for something you had no intention of eating just because you lived in. I would have prefered to live in but to opt out of the food and paid for a meal as and when I decided to eat it.
BV

:*

Above Datums

23rd Aug 2005, 15:32

I agree with Bob Viking, PAYD should be a great thing, however; I have just come from a certain Scottish base where PAYD has destroyed mess life, the food is appalling and the portions are so small you have no other option then to fill up on bread! I am all for PAYD [IF] it is done correctly but the airforce doesn't seem to know how to do that! It is sad that a good idea has been destroyed by p*ss poor execution!

:*

mbga9pgf

23rd Aug 2005, 16:24

Agreed. And to top it all, they expect to take over our bars and close down potential competition, such as Squadron bars!!! They will never get away with it.

Bob, if the food was so bad, why didnt you complain, where I am, we get steak twice a week, a fish course every night, deserts from heaven... someone somewhere is skimping. Why doesnt your mess adopt true PAYD, with supplementary costs at lunchtime? the profits from an overpacked lunch easily cover additional expenses at breakfast/Dinner. I would suggest that if you had not experienced abortionised PAYD as yet you give it a whirl. You may be unpleasantly surprised.:yuk: Then ask yourself, is such more expensive meagre muck worth loosing cheap bar priveledges and discount summer Balls? Loss of all squadron bars? Eating in MCofficers mess? Mess life as a whole? I personally dont think it is, and am sticking to myguns when I say abortionised PAYD will be the end of many customs and cheap beer in the Officers/SNcO Messes.

Bob Viking

23rd Aug 2005, 16:38

How was that steak/fish if you arrived 10 minutes before the end of the meal time? Still as succulent and juicy?!
My main complaint was always the times of the meals to be honest and the fact that if you arrived late you ate cr@p.
The food at the beginning was always much better. Still, you had to fight your way through the queue of eager blunties to get anywhere near it!
BV:ok:

mbga9pgf

23rd Aug 2005, 17:09

Aye, I agree at times quality can vary, but am a reeet noorthern monkey and am not too fussed, as long as its not corned beef hash!

I suppose its a function of what you are used to. For me, the food is better than eating out most nights. And the scran is a damn sight better than I used to get as a kiddie, so I am as happy as a pig in the proverbial!

:}

PAUL101

24th Aug 2005, 08:18

Southside,

What a load of tosh! PAYD has been nothing other than a money saving scheme since its birth. The basic facts are that the MOD did not want to continue having to provide ORs/Officers etc 3 a meals a day for the circa 3 quid a day they were being charged.

All the cr** about it being trialled and being a success - the one-star in charge of the project was told to get it introduced. The results are where PAYD is in use there are empty messes (unless you have no choice), unhealthy eating patterns or worse, limited eating as airmen run out of money. As for the nutrional input from the volumes of micrwave meals being consumed......

Once again, with the help of indivuduals like you, a great part of Service life has been destroyed - all for saving of money to please the civil servants!!!

The Rocket

24th Aug 2005, 10:03

limited eating as airmen run out of money

What a ridiculous, pompous statement to make. Do you really think that in this day and age that the junior ranks are so hopelessly bad with their money that they fail to save enough money every month to eat!?

What about those airmen that choose to live out privately in theie own homes? Do you suggest that they are made to come and eat in the mess also "just in case" they cannot afford to eat after managing their rent, council tax, electricity.....etc.

Some of these airmen are paid a better wage than junior officers, but do you think that we as officers are obviously far more sensible than the baldricks, and would never dream of being in such a position?

As has been previously stated in this thread, the reasons the messes are empty is because people are voting with their feet. For years, people (including airmen) have been buying their food elsewhere, on top of paying mess charges, because they simply do not want to eat when they are forced to eat and do not want to eat the remains of lunch rehashed for dinner, and prefer the options that eating elsewhere gives.

Simply, now that people are no longer paying for meals they do not want, the obligation is no longer there to turn up and eat those meals, hence the messes are emptier.

a great part of Service life has been destroyed

IMHO the erosion of this great part of service life began with contractorisation.

PAUL101

24th Aug 2005, 10:27

The Rocket,

You obviously have not been a sqn cdr and seen some of the stupid financial cock-ups airmen and yes my mistake!! to victimize that group because also junior officers sometimes are as bad too. But you issed the point - there will now be many who run out of money at the end of the month, yes I agree there are many who live out and do very well, superb. I suspect with modern lines of credit many 17 and 18 years olds will add it onto their credit cards/loans etc. I could not believe some of the debts acrued by these lads and lasses.

From my experience airmen's messes are pretty busy - it is the OM that has been in decline. BV mentioned he thought PAYD was a good thing if introuduced correctly. He outlined he wanted more flexible hours to eat, fresh food, more choice - come on wake up. The MOD could not afford the current system if everyone actually took all the meals they were entitled too. Does anyone believe that more flexible menus and timings can brought in without significant increases in cost? Get real!!

The new system will cost the individual considerably more to eat to the same stanard then the old one. I do not see 'timings' improving unless we are talking about late night burger bar facilties. The reason OMs' have suffered is that they failed to keep up with the needs of the younger livers-in, whose wishes needed to be respected more. Over recent months I have visited a number of Messes where there is a good living -in crowd enhanced by a Mess that has voted to offer better facilties - this had nothing to do with the money saving scheme of PAYD.

Remember for about 3 pounds a day a service person could obtain 3 square meals. Yes at certain time periods but there was no shopping, no prep, no washing up. If you really did not like the current system you could live out - see how far your 90 quid goes then not to mention the time factor. I say again, PAYD is a cost saving measure for the MOD that has once again detracted from the standards/quality of life offered in the Service.

BEagle

24th Aug 2005, 10:50

PAUL101 - 101% correct, mate!

But all part of the creeping cancer of contractorisation which has, for the most part, destroyed what the Service once was.

PAUL101

24th Aug 2005, 11:08

BEagle,

Spot on - thanks for your post.

southside

24th Aug 2005, 12:09

whats wrong with contractorisation? Surely, contracting out certain aspects of work is a good thing. Contract cleaners, Catering, Domestics etc. It makes sound economic sense to contract those out.

Above Datums

24th Aug 2005, 12:12

The Rocket.

Unfortunately certain people are that reckless with their cash. There is an order that appears weekly in Leuchars SRO’s with regard to persons who had spent all their money and could not afford to buy food for the rest of the month. It is embarrassing that members of the armed forces are not able to discipline their spending to be able to afford food!

:ugh:

ZH875

24th Aug 2005, 12:36

whats wrong with contractorisation? Surely, contracting out certain aspects of work is a good thing. Contract cleaners, Catering, Domestics etc. It makes sound economic sense to contract those out.

In my youth, the erks cleaned the working environment, it took about 10 mins at the end of the shift. Bins were emptied at cease work.

Now we have civvy contract cleaning staff, our carpet is hoovered once a fortnight, bins are emptied around 10am, meaning that full bins are left throughout the building overnight, just adding to the risk of any fire spreading quickly. How can using a civvy contractor be cheaper than using erks, who would otherwise be sitting around the crew room having finished their work and handed in all tools and are just waiting to be released.

And I know who does a better job.

EXGUTGEEZER

24th Aug 2005, 16:34

Service food going down the pan ? Army influence maybe ?

I remember when i was a teenager in Gibraltar, food in the Airmens Mess was superb, then after a year the army came in to live upstairs on the 3rd floor and things went 'joint service', omg what a turnabout! Mess turned into a down market canteen fit for, well, not human beings anyway. Mess manager was a terrific bloke who took huge pride in his little empire and the food was the best on the Rock, no exaggeration whatsoever. But he soon headed for a nervous breakdown, and was lucky to reach the end of his tour soon afterwards.

Everything went to the dogs, food, Naafi, way of life, we were expected to salute Ruperts who were the other side of the football field, sgt majors and the likes shouting their heads orf whilst some of us were sleeping orf night shifts. Turned into a living hell.

And there's no improvement then ? decades later ?

Condolences to you all.............

BEagle

24th Aug 2005, 17:36

Weren't we, the Hossifers, once taught to ensure that 3 main items must always be provided to those we purported to lead?

Those 3 items?

MEALS

MAIL

MONEY

....and doesn't an Army also march on its stomach?

So why was the stupidity of this ill-conceived PAYD allowed to inflict itself upon the Armed Forces?

Background Noise

24th Aug 2005, 18:12

Contractorisation is all very well in limited areas - in many its considerably worse. Who honestly thinks that the current phone system is any good (or cheaper). PAYD is similarly inappropriate. If we had entirely self catering accom then fine but we seem to want to mix service traditions and mess life with some ill-conceived and unworkable system.

Someone above quoted more flexible meal times and less than fresh food towards the end of meal times - in my experience PAYD is no different. Meal times are not any longer because its all done on the cheap. Late meals are a thing of the past - contractors do not stay late on request (or orders). I've gone from home base to a PAYD mess a missed the meal time - no meal, no rates to cover either. And why does my 2 night det cost me £8 plus when the other bloke's costs something like 44p in a normal mess. And if it was claimable where's the saving over the original system.

Rant off.

16 blades

24th Aug 2005, 20:34

Good point - will rates now be revised to reflect the fact that in some Service messes you now have to PAY with your OWN MONEY to eat? Somehow I doubt it - on base = no rates. If the 'base' you are staying 'on' just happens to be PAYD, where does this leave you?

Whatever happened to duty meals?

16B

The Rocket

25th Aug 2005, 01:22

Paul101, Above Datums.

In that case I can only offer an apology.

Paul, I speak as somebody who has indeed seen young airmen who are irresponsible with their finances, but never to the extent where they are irresponsible enough to be financially unable to feed themselves throughout the month.
Without meaning to cause offence, I may well be blinkered in the fact that the airmen I work around and with are all engineers with a few years experience of life, and who are paid relatively well.
I have not worked anywhere with, or been in charge of a large percentage of younger airmen on a lower wage who may be getting themselves into the situation you describe.
However I stand by the fact that I see your comments as being rather derogatory towards the VAST majority of Airmen/Junior Officers who have no problems financially, but wish not to be paying for food that they do not want to eat, yet are being tarred with the brush that if they do not pay mess charges they will starve because they are not able to control their money adequately.
I feel that your argument favours the few rather than the majority.

Above Datums,

If that is the case with regard to SRO's then I agree entirely with you that we should be ashamed with ourselves. However, I still feel that it is a minority letting us down rather than the vast majority of sensible, decent servicepeople.

Scud-U-Like

25th Aug 2005, 08:42

I cannot believe some people are still using the paternalistic nonsense about junior personnel not being able to feed themselves, as an argument against PAYD. Perhaps we should re-introduce compulsory underwear inspections, to ensure they've wiped their @rses properly too.

I can think of better ways of encouraging fiscal responsibility than by deducting £150 per month from the salary of an airman or woman, who neither wants nor needs three square meals a day.

mbga9pgf

25th Aug 2005, 11:22

Fine. Well introduce this hair-brained scheme in the Junior ranks mess, the only "public" mess we have. It would far better suit the Junior Ranks mess anyway.

Just dont enforce this on either the SNCO Messes or the Officers messes or its going to be boycotted. I particularly find it concerning that this scheme is likely to be forced upon a non-public asset such as the officers mess, without a traditional mess vote going on. Bet people wouldnt be best pleased to hear this is not only going to cover food, as the name suggests, but also will reign complete control over the bar as well.

southside

25th Aug 2005, 12:16

but also will reign complete control over the bar as well

Good god man. Does that mean we have to PAYD....Pay as you drink?

Whatever next ?

tucumseh

25th Aug 2005, 20:31

Article in this months Defence Director (in a supplement entitled "Defence Commodities").

Quote...

Its popularity stems from the fact that:

"It is a far more holistic, integrated solution for the delivery of catering, retail and leisure in all of the Services peace teme environments". Followed by five pages of management speak on PAYD, NAAFI and Defence Catering Group.

Given the contributors to this rag, and the "all is sweetness and light" propaganda it often contains, I'd say privatisation isn't far off.

Gainesy

26th Aug 2005, 09:10

Anyone using "delivery" and "solution" in a sentence should be shot. Milkmen excepted.

Stax

30th Aug 2005, 11:26

I am reading a lot from fans of PAYD about 5h1t food in the messes prior to the contractors taking over. All joking apart gents you are obviously not, nor ever have been part of the catering/bar organisation. Over the years I have worked, part time, in various messes, Officers and Sgts in particular and I can assure you the Chefs try damned hard to give the customers a high standard of food, on no more than (approx) £2.50 a day. Contractors are interested in one thing, profit, to that end why should they bother to try and serve up anything complicated? As I have stated in this thread, check out Halton's messes which survive on trainee's as the permanent staff won't use the dining room. People will vote with their feet, so watch this space as, in the future, the contractor dosen't find it cost effective to run three dining rooms and kitchens, therefore he centralises it and we all end up in a massive "Happy Eater". No privacy for the Seniors and Occifers and worst of all nowhere for the troops to get away from us. And no, I am not a caterer.