Are non transponder aircraft a prob to you guys

[magpienja]

Hi guys/gals I am a student flexwing microlight pilot and a guy came into our field yesterday in a flexwing or wobbly wings, whatever you want to call them and his a/craft was fitted with a transponder never seen a flexwing with one before, anyway on to my question, do a/craft not fitted with transponders cause you guys many probs, I was on a solo nav ex some weeks back not to far from blackpool going over the s/west corner of wartons matz at around 3200ft and could see blackpool and felt a little bothered that atc could prob see me on radar but not know my altitude, is this a prob if you have traffic near my radar trace.

Regards Nick.

[Standard Noise]

Non transponders aren't a problem per se, but if you have one onboard, it makes our lives a little easier, specially if we are in a position if we have to vector the pax carrying smartie tubes outside the limits of CAS.

Regardless of whether you are transponder equipped or not, you should always call radar units you are planning to pass on your route. It is not only more helpful for us to know where you are and at what height, but may be safer for you depending on whatever else we are talking to.

[normally right blank]

No! But I have to rely on your altitude reports. The same with gliders (a lot around here). I'm a lucky guy with primary radar that's very good at tracking gliders etc. (and wx.!). But if you try hard enough you become invisible (blind speed, tangential fading).

[Pierre Argh]

Like my colleagues have said, it depends if you're speaking to me... there are ways I can identify you from your primary radar return alone so squawk is convenient but not essential.

If, on the otherhand you don't speak to me... it makes a big difference whether you're squawking and have Mode C. Compressing the rules slightly. In the Class G in the UK... if you are squawking 7000 with Mode C I can take another aircraft to 3000ft above/below you (providing that below 10,000ft I get a gap between the two aircraft's primary radar returns)... but a non squawker (or one without Mode C) has to be assumed to be at the same level and I have to steer my RAS traffic clear of you by 5nms horizontally (PITA)

With the forthcoming advent of Mode C this problem will all but disappear when most aircraft will be mandated to carry an SSR transponder... although I believe the consequences of micro-lights etc not carrying them is causing much debate (?). I was therefore, interested to hear of a transponder that was light enough for a microlight to be able to carry, presumably without significant penalty.

[Flobadob]

Not when I am operating SSR only:ok:

[magpienja]

Hi guys very interesting, I should had stated I am non radio at the moment due me not being vhf licensed, I will get a licence asap and the school aircraft I am flying is radio equipped but as I say I cannot legally use it, anyway from what you guys are telling me if I am non transponder but have radio and licensed you would prefer me to call you if going anyware near larger airfields in class G airspace to make life easier for you, sometimes the thought crosses the mind of being a nuisance with unnecessary calls but if it helps I am happy.

Nick.

[MightyGem]

Are non transponder aircraft a prob to you guys
Makes you show up on our TCAS though, as you micro boys can be difficult to see at times.

[Standard Noise]

"...sometimes the thought crosses the mind of being a nuisance with unnecessary calls....."

Depends on your point of view as to what unnecessary is. We at BRS have a LARS freq to deal with those who are passing by, regardless of type or flight rules, we have much experience of dealing with micros/gliders/balloons etc etc and it is much, much easier for us (particularly the person vectoring our commercial tfc and IFR trainers) if you call us and we know where you are, since all our IFR traffic transits through class G airspace to get to us.
My advice is call anyway, if the unit has no traffic to affect then so be it, but believe me, it's no fun vectoring a 757 or summat similar round the sky cos there's some loon winding their merry way through our final approach without talking to us. Also bear in mind that in some parts of the country (like here in Zummerset) there is quite a bit of v. fast moving military tfc on the go. You might be glad of the service we provide.

[flower]

I need a quiet room to go and sit down in, I have to agree with Standard Noise.

We have yet again had microlights flying right up to the very edge of our zone without talking to us in areas we descend aircraft outside of CAS into our airport, we get a very faint paint on the radar screen and sometimes no paint at all. let us know you are there and it makes life less interesting for us for which we are grateful.

I have to say in the last few weeks we have had local Hot Air Balloons calling us up and letting us know they are there for which they are always thanked. When our two airports get surrounded with much more CAS it will be less critical for us but certainly for the time being we will still be providing a LARS service so why not use it.

[dwshimoda]

magpienja

I may be wrong, but when I was a trainee PPL I was using the radio when I was flying solo, up until I took the RT test at the end of the course. My understanding was that as you are training, and effectively flying on your instructors licence, you can also use their RT licence.

Now, I stand to be shot down here, but if that's not the case, then I know of literally tens of students that are illegally using the RT... Also, I'd rather be talking to an ATC unit than be blind on both radio and transponder.

Anyone with better knowledge care to comment?
DW

[magpienja]

Ok guys all noted thanks for your advise, and dwshimoda I will make enquires as to the use of the vhf.

Regards Nick.

[Standard Noise]

Steady flower, steady, that's twice this year already!


BTW, does that mean I'm getting better or you're getting worse!?;)

[flower]

Highly debatable that Standard Noise :ooh:

[Pierre Argh]

DW

I'm going to stick my head up above the parapet too... many years ago I was at the time working at an airfield not too far south of where I think you operate from... and the local flying club was advised "call us... even if you haven't got an RT license... we're not going to sneak on you." OK things may have changed a bit in the intervening (and there's bound to be criticism of this "illegal and irresponsible" advice)... so I ask why are pilots allowed to train/fly without a qualification to use the radio?

[WHBM]

Flying VFR mid-English Channel, are about to call XXXXX Approach ourselves when we hear this exchange:

"XXXXX Approach G-ABCD Good Morning"

"G-ABCD Gooood Moaning. Squawk 4321".

"Uh, Negative transponder G-ABCD".

"What is zees, negative transpondeur, 'ow can I 'elp you with no transpondeur. I am 'ere to 'elp you but with no transpondeur ......"

And it went on for a little longer.

[ratt]

Talking to us helps heaps.

Being able to squawk helps heaps more.

Trying to get IM traffic down through a low cloudbase to recover is not the easiest thing when the weather below is lovely for the non-squawking community, and as flobadob pointed out we may not even see you if we are SSR only as happens from time to time.

Flying around with no transponder and not talking to anyone can be dangerous from where I am sat BUT it is perfectly legal in the right piece of airspace and to be honest that's the way people like it on the whole, or we'd have gone down the route of many other countries.

If you can't chat or squawk just be aware of the airspace around you and what weather descending aircraft are likely to be experiencing.

Maybe try and get a visit to a local radar unit and see actually how wide their pattern is. I know it surprises the visitors we get.

Oh, and when you do get on the air be very aware that noise of the air can distort your radio alot, so keep the message succinct.

Good luck with the radio exam.

[EastCoaster]

Please, please don't ever be afraid to talk to the ATCU on VHF, licensed or not! Even if you're not squawking, it is far safer for all concerned if we at least know you're out there. No matter what class of airspace you're in! A quick position/alt check at the right moment could mean the difference between happy flying for all concerned versus fresh grundies required all-round and a barrage of CA1261 and AIRPROX reports landing on some poor sod's desk in SRG!

As already mentioned though, it can be a good idea to keep your message succint - there's nothing worse than a free-caller trying to pass his/her life story in the first transmission and clogging the frequency at the most inopportune moment!

Aside from that, good luck with the flying, and enjoy! ;)

[Pierre Argh]

Eastcoaster... I agree, and would like to emphasise the point you make about the free-caller trying to pass his/her life story in the first transmission
Establish comms first before passing details, controllers may be working more than one frequency and you message may block another out... (or the controller at a quiet unit may have to put down his Soduko puzzle :-))

[dwshimoda]

I've checked in Lasors, and as usual, it's a bit "hazy":

No person may operate an aircraft radio station in the air, or on the ground, unless they are in possession of
a FRTOL, or are operating directly under the
supervision of the holder of a FRTOL. The latter implies
that the FRTOL holder is present in the aircraft.
Authorised RTF Examiners at Regional Test Centres

It's the final part about "implies" that gets me! I'm just wondering how many PPL's are out there inadvertently contravening this!

[magpienja]

Lots of good advise thank you all for your input.

Nick.

[Spotter]

A couple of years ago a pair of Hawks had a close call with a pair of flexwings just outside Class D controlled airspace. The flexwings were barely showing on radar & not talking to me either. Luckily the Hawks saw them & managed to avoid, but it was pretty close. Whilst there is no requirement to speak to ATC in class G airspace maybe all microlight (and light aircraft) pilots should take a minute to consider the wisdom of skirting right on the edge of controlled airspace in aircraft that have low radar visibility without at least telling ATC that you are there. It might be legal, but would that be any comfort to your family when you're impaled on the business end of something fast & pointy? The great thing about a transponder is that there's no way you will be just ignored as another spurious weather return cos as far as I know even a big nasty cumulonimbus can't squawk 7000.