Massey Students! Need your input!

[fluxos]

To everyone in the know of the Massey course: Bachelor of Aviation (Air Transport Pilot)

It would be great if you could enlighten on the requirements of the course. Massey states that all students should have a minimum of year13 maths and physics.

I was wondering how true this is in reality as I did not do Maths nor Physics up to year 13. However, I did score distinctions in both subjects in GCSE. Thus, I was wondering if year 13maths and physics are REALLY required and used in the course, or would my current ability be sufficient?

I may enroll myself in the bridging courses if necessary.

Thanks.

[Massey058]

Distinction in GCSE would be more than enough. In a couple of the papers you go back through calculus and physics in much the same way as for other uni courses.

[masseygrad]

A number of people in my course had only done School Certificate (is that equivalent to GSCE or O levels?) mathematics. 32 out of 33 passed 'Aviation Mathematics' as they called it.

'Aviation Physics' was a bit harder. But with a good GSCE base both are very passable.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Der Masey pilots

I can see from yore dizcushions here that yu ar all brainy wif maths, and I nede your help.

I wosnt brainy enuf to go to a flash skool like Masey. I am now doing some corespondance course to help me lern all that phisics and calculus wot I nede to apply to an airline, but I nede some help wit a maths problem wot my techer gave me for homwerk. it gose like this :

---------------

If I wanted to be an airline pilot and wasn't sure how to go about it, should I

A) spend 3 years and $100,000 just to get a CPL/IR and some mediocre piece of paper that is widely considered utterly worthless by the aviation employer community, and then find at the end of those 3 years that I am unemployable because I still need another 1000 hours total / 100 multi before I can even start submitting my CV to the most lowly of turboprop commuter airlines ...

Or

B) spend 1 year and $50,000 to get myself the same qualification, plus instructor rating, from some other flying school in NZ, get cracking on some instructing and be already knocking on Eagle's door by the time those Massey turkeys have even started studying for their final exams in "aviation calculus and physics"?

-----------

Im relly relly stuk on this one ... I wos wundering if yu cud get yore letcurar from the aviaton mathametics dupartmint to do a cost benafit anulysiz for me :rolleyes:

[haughtney1]

Shame on you Luke:D

[Massey058]

Quite the snob aren't you Luke? But I suppose as long as it makes you feel better to look down your nose at all the people who choose to do things differently to you it doesn't matter. However you're english may need brushing up on because I think you may have misunderstood the thread, oh well, you are far more superior so who am I to point that out.

[mattyj]

..ahh ha ha ha ha ha..ha ha....:p :p :p

....ha ha ha..ho ho..cough!!..


..oh split my sides..I'm going back to read it again..

hehe

[Dixons Cider]

Hey Luke Skybaby

If thats the the way you see it, why the penis envy?
If these turkeys are gonna spend a **** load of more money than you, and you are gonna be out there in the market while they are still in the classroom - then me thinks you should shut it and keep your secret to yourself for your own benefit!

By the way, I'm sure that these "most lowly of turboprop commuter airlines" would love to know your opinion of them.....twa+.

[Luke SkyToddler]

I'm sorry ... I'm sure it's not as funny from the inside looking out ... but surely even you humourless Palmy North academic geniuses can see the irony in all these Massey boys reckoning they have all these superior maths skills, while every single one of them is sitting there fat dumb and happy getting taken for a big bunch of suckers, wasting a couple of years of potential employability and tens of thousands of dollars.

Anyway bottom of the maths class for the whole lot of you ... special remedial homework assignment time :ok: Please explain why Eagle are so desperate for pilots they are allegedly advertising overseas at present (ref the thread in D&G R&N), when Massey are churning out hundreds of hot sh!t supremely highly trained B.Avs every year?

The only reason I periodically come onto Massey threads and rip the piss out of them, is not for my own amusement at the expense of you guys already there, you're lost causes. It's more in the faint hope that someone still at school, considering Massey as a future training provider will read this stuff, actually THINK about these things and try to see past the sales pitch).

( ... and by the way Cider there is no "secret" about the fact that Massey is the biggest rip off in aviation - it's pretty blindingly obvious to those who bother to go and ask a couple of airline pilots what they think, or do even half a day's research, before they decide which flying school they will park all their $$$. Personally I don't think I'll be bothering the kiwi commuter airlines any time soon ... unless me and haughtney decide to buy one as a little retirement investment in a few years time :ok: )

[haughtney1]

Luke..I'll have you know Im investing quite heavily in a beer gut at the moment...granted a lowish return on investment, but Im sure you'll agree, cheaper than a Massey B Av degree, and ultimately more enjoyable:p

[Massey058]

Like I said the maths stuff is no different to the revision papers that they have you do in the first year of most degrees. Certainly doesn't make anyone a hot **** at maths or physics thats for sure.

I did do a lot of research on the school before I decided to enrol, I first thought about going there at 14 when I was talking to a Malaysia Airlines captain on a sector from KUL to AKL. Since then I spent a lot of time looking into it for the next 4 years and decided that was best for me.

I don't really care how people choose to train in order to do what they want in life, but apparently you feel you have some god-like ability and must tell people what to do. Yes there will always be people that shouldn't be there but thats the same as anything in life, I'm sure the captains you've flown with would atest to that given the attitude you're showing here.

[gassed budgie]

If the majors are seeking management types from the pilot ranks, it will be those who have some sort of higher education quaification or possibly hold a degree in the management or marketing area that would be most attractive to them.
I don't mean to rubbish any of the above, but to me a Bachelor of Aviation at the end of the day is a fairly meaningless qualification. I'm not actually sure what it qualifies you to do. It certainly doesn't qualify you fly aeroplanes as they should be flown. Having been exposed to some of the gradutes from these programs, I've often come away from the experience wondering what they were actually taught.
I would hope that after spending such a significant amount of money, one would be better positioned to gain a foothold in the industry with an employer. If not, I can't see that it was really worth the effort and expense. Re-read the first sentence.

[haughtney1]

Gassed..the biggest trouble I've noticed with Massey Students I've met, is their tendancy to believe the hype, and all the marketing dribble thats spouted their way, however its like that here in the UK where oxford flying college has the dubious honour of producing CPL's with ego's 3 times the size of their skill/experience bank as well.
Im sure the quality of flying instruction that Massey provides is on a par with any other professional flight training organisation, the concern I have is that the cost is excessive, the recognition of the qualifications is dubious at best, and the finished product i.e. the student, is wholly unprepared for the harsh realities of commercial aviation.

Luke..anyone you know still there?

[gassed budgie]

Just a clarification. It was not and is not my intention to single out Massey or any other training organisation in my previous post.

[masseygrad]

Luke Skytoddler, who said anything about Massey students reckoning that they have superior maths skills? Any Massey student knows that they’ve done an ‘Aviation Maths’ paper which is nothing special, rather is there just to make up the credits. Any pilot that has done a degree that includes first year Calculus or Algebra has studied Maths to a ‘superior’ level than a B.Av. graduate.

How many Massey graduates have insinuated to you that they might be a notch above you in some way because they have superior maths skills? Come on, be honest about this and give us a number. Or did you just assume that this is what Massey students/graduates think?

Please explain why Eagle are desperate for pilots while Massey are churning out hundreds every year?

Umm…well, Eagle may be desperate for pilots with a certain experience level, i.e. captains or pilots with lots of multi IFR experience. Massey are only graduating about 20 pilots a year (they have quite a high drop-out rate). And don’t forget that new CPL-holders from Massey only account for a fraction of the total number of new CPL holders in NZ every year. They may have the highest number of students at any one time but there are lots of other flight schools out there!

Okay, so if one is so inclined…why should they do an aviation degree?

Some people desire to have a bachelors degree as well as a commercial pilot license. They can either go to Auckland University or wherever and study whatever. Personally I think a commerce or management degree might be useful for useful for a pilot long term.

But what about a Bachelor of Aviation? Its basically 3 years of academic studies that all pertains to aviation. Is it all necessary stuff to know to be a good pilot? Absolutely not. But if you’re not overly fussed about what sort of degree you do, you’re prepared to go into a probable life-time of debt and borrow the money to do it, you’re passionate about flying, then why not study aviation!

Here are some of the highlights from my experience:

- Having Dr Gordon Vette has a guest lecturer for an Aviation Human Factors Paper.
- Heavy Aircraft Performance; we had an Air NZ B767 training captain lecturing. Got a good insight into performance considerations of heavy aircraft. (And we each got 20 mins on the B767 sim, which was very motivating! And that’s the sort of thing that a trainee pilot needs about this world of aviation, which as we know can be very difficult, fickle, sometimes cruel.)
- Aviation history. Ask me about Sir George Cayley, Otto Lilienthal, Clement Ader, Samuel Langley…etc. I can tell you about them all!

Aviation maths was not a highlight!

A lot of emphasis is put on Aviation Human Factors and CRM. All of the ATPL subjects are included within the Bachelor of Aviation. Another aspect of the ATPL subjects (this applies also to the PPL and CPL subjects) is that the examinations ask for long answers (i.e. essay type answers), so instead of having multi-guess questions, you are asked to write a paragraph to tell the examiner exactly what you know about a certain topic. Don’t get me wrong. In my mind anyone who has passed all of the NZ ATPL subjects through the normal CAA-administered exams has proven a high level of understanding, but asking Massey students to write specific essays helps justify the degree status of the B.Av.

To get a CPL by way of the Massey B.Av. is a lot more expensive than a CPL needs to be. I can’t argue with you there. And very noble of you I must say Luke to take it upon yourself to be a watchdog for people still at school considering Massey as a training provider. Your sense of civic duty is admirable. But a medical or veterinarian degree isn’t any cheaper and a dentistry degree is more expensive. And its still cheaper than doing a JAR license in the UK.


Gassed Budgie, you’re absolutely right. A B.Av. doesn’t qualify you to do anything. At least not more than any other Bachelors degree. If you study economics or management you learn a lot of theory, but when you get a job most of what you need to know is learnt on-the-job. Most occupational fields are like that.

I’m saying that if you have aptitude for another academic field (be it science, the arts, commerce, administration or whatever) then by all means do that. But if not, and you want to know as much as possible about aviation (in addition to what is taught if the CPL syllabus) then maybe the B. Av. is for you (and providing you’re prepared to accept the financial consequences as previously mentioned!).

Alternatively, stuff academia and just do a CPL! Nothing wrong with that!

Gassed Budgie, you also say that a B.Av, doesn’t qualify pilots to fly aeroplanes as they should be flown. I assume you’ve had experience with Massey graduates and weren’t impressed with their performance? I can’t speak for your experience here but if I’m to be perfectly frank I don’t think that the B.Av, flying program is ideally suited as preparation for grass roots level GA flying. Don’t forget that when Massey started they were sending pilots from a Piper Seminole straight to a B737-500 in Indonesia. Indeed their whole raison d’etre was to train ‘airline ready’ pilots, with superior CRM and multi-crew training etc, as according to their research “that was what was lacking in typical flight training syllabi at the time”. And I’m the first to admit that my Massey training didn’t prepare me that well for a career in GA. But I think you will find that things have changed in recent years. And the bottom line is that if I wasn’t competent to obtain a CPL then the CAA examiner wouldn’t have passed me. And coming back to the on-the-job training theme, that applies to aviation as well! If you want to do mountain flying in Queenstown then you do a specialist course and 50 hours mountain experience down there. If you want to do bush flying in the Northern Territory in OZ then you get properly checked out for that.


Haughtney 1, you wrote that the biggest trouble with Massey students you’ve met is their tendency to believe the hype, and all the marketing dribble etc. That’s very believable. But you mentioned Massey students rather than Massey graduates. Which is more relevant?? Doesn’t really matter what they think when they are students does it? I mean, its not like anyone’s going to consider hiring a student. And whether they believe the hype when they’re a student or not, they’re inevitably going to be exposed to the big bad world where reality will set in.

Incidentally, I chose my PPRuNe alias just after I graduated from Massey. Not due to an over inflated ego but I was certainly green and naïve! And yes quickly leant the harsh realities of the aviation industry. Not long after I regretted choosing that as an alias and thought about getting a new one. But then I thought ‘stuff it, who gives a toss!’

For the record, I’ve got classmates from Massey, who’ve graduated within the last 4 years, who are currently or have recently done the following: Mountain flying in Queesnstown, flying Islanders for Great Barrier Airlines, flying Twin Otters in Tonga, Eagle Air, Origin Pacific, Airwork, flying ERJs in the States (yip, that guy’s done amazingly well), flying 206s and Islanders in Africa, bush flying in Australia and of course instructing (not just with Massey). A pretty typical mix of jobs for newly qualified pilots really. I’ve been in GA (not instructing) for the last 3 years, slowly but surely having built up 1500 hours commercial experience with some good multi time.


Cheers,
..MG

[b8z]

If you dont have GCSE, Is there any other ways of doing training to become a pilot?

[Capt. Erebus]

Masseygrad:

What a great posting. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Cheers

CE

[Flying Kiwi]

A well thought out and reasoned reply masseygrad. Shame it'll probably be lost on "Beavis and Butthead". Nevermind :}

[iceblock]

Luke toddle wobbles,

What establishment did you train at? The reason I ask is that I will probably have heard through a friend of a friend that it is crap and I just wanted to hang sh*t on it.

[ZK-NSN]

Funny how every single forum about Massey turns out this way. I have to agree with most of what luke is saying, i think the truth hurts.
I dont have a high opinion of the course or the training, im sure the quality is acceptable but i question it's relavence to what students will be doing post course, finding a G.A job. A person with a year or 2 experience in building or any other trade would be far more useful to an employer than one with a good mark in calculas. I think its part of a growing trend of people over-estimating the value of a degree in NZ. You dont need to be steven Hawkings to fly an aeroplane. The best way I've heard it explained is "you dont need to be smart to fly an aeroplane, you just cant be stupid."
In respect to the students flying, I've seen Massey students do some dumb things (taxi into ditches, bust clearences & bogg aircraft in mud to name a few) but no more dumb or frequently than from any other training outfit of a similar size. My main gripe is with the p.r people who are blowing smoke up peoples backsides. If people dont do their homework before signing up its their own fault.

iceblock - Name calling, thats the grown up asnwer. NZ is'nt a big country, the industry is small and masseys reputation far exceeds itself, its no big secret.

[nike]

a bit harsh Luke.

[27/09]

ZK-NSN sums up Massey pretty well.

Masseys PR people have also been known to make derogatory comments in public about rival training organisations and then tell lies and deny what they said.

[Massey058]

ZK-NSN,

Its not just every thread about Massey but just about any thread about anything. Just read any of the threads that are about Eagle or Origin and it doesn't take long until the comments turn sour.

[iceblock]

ZK NSN: name calling may not be mature but nor was the post made by Luke SkyToddler (albiet funny), I just gave it the respect it deserved.

Whenever a topic about Massey comes up the old line about astro physics and advanced calculus get trotted out by the Massey critics. You don't have a clear understanding of the contents of the Massey degree otherwise you would know that the maths and physics components are merely the equivalence of bridging courses that you might take to achieve QF requirements for example. It's difficulty level would be probably the last year of secondary college but by no means a full or even half of that years content.

If the industry overestimates the value of a degree than why do major carriers including Air NZ place importance on it when determining a persons eligibilty for an interview? Also why are there hundreds of pilots spending their time efficiently on long haul trips studying for some degree component or even post grad education. If no one places importance on education then perhaps I have been misled my whole life. I realise you are specifically talking about entry level pilots into the aviation industry but I fail to see the problem with a person studying early in their working life. The flying component, licences and ratings still have to be obtained to the required standard who gives a toss whether a degree was obtained at the same time? The airlines don't care...
Of course a Massey graduate will spend time in GA like anyone else starting out the degree will not help them to fly the plane better but it will provide them with an extar string to their bow when airlines become an option. The assumption that to do a degree requires Steven Hawkins like abilities is a joke. All a degree proves is that you have the temprement (sic) to study over a period of time to achieve a goal, sure some degrees are harder than others, but to say that a Massey degree requires some sort of super human effort is a joke. In the final analysis it would be no harder or easier than a standard Bachelor of Arts and we all know what the initials BA stand for! It is not what the degree consists of sometimes but the fact you have the peice of paper.

27/09: well give us some examlpes and we may be inclined to believe you...

[27/09]

iceblock

I have ample evidence to back up my statement, however I don't intend to publish it on a public forum such as this one.

One of the biggest issues the I have with Massey have is the way Massey promotes itself when recruiting for students. My post was to help illustrate this point. I believe that some of their advertising still does or was until recently still alluding to the Garuda deal where Massey graduates could get placings as First Officers, (this deal has been defunct for several years now).

While the Garuda deal was still going I know of students being given the expectation of a slot at Garuda and at the end only getting it thru the threat of legal action.

Obviously you did your training at Massey, and you are proud of that organisation and what they helped you achieve. I would expect nothing less of someone who was happy with the training they received. Hence your posts of support for Massey as a training organisation. If I was in your position I would be doing the same.

However not all Massey graduates are as complimentary about Massey as a pilot training organisation as you, Masseygrad and Massey058 are. Some that I know paint quite a different picture.

Also if Massey is so good please explain to me -

- Why some GA operators have refused to employ Massey graduates?

- Why Massey CPL graduates have left to do their instructor ratings with other training orgainisations? I'll tell you, it was because they had come to the realisation that if they wished to work as an instructor and move onto other GA jobs the only way for this to happen was for them to do their instructor training at someplace else than Massey.

One of the other issues that people have with Massey is the value that is put on the B Av as a reason for doing your training at Massey. I don't think anyone on this thread has decryed the value of a degree, the sticking point is the relevance of the B Av. There are better and cheaper options.

I understand that in the past there was a high drop out rate from the B Av programme. The dropout s occuring just after students obtained their MEIR. They didn't see the value of the B Av and didn't bother with the academic study to complete the course, they had what they needed to get a job in aviation and left. In some cases the only reason they went to there was because Massey was the only place at that time where a student loan could be obtained for pilot training. I think Massey has since changed the programme to address the dropout issue.

There are plenty of anecdotes about the attitudes of Massey students and their expectations when they graduated. Almost in every case as a result of what they had been told by Massey management about the value of their training at Massey. Note; this only applies to some Massey graduates, please don't think I include you in this group. There are Massey graduates with good attitudes and realistic expectations as well.

Have you wondered why Massey's student numbers have dropped dramatically over the last few years and Massey has closed its Ardmore base, while other organisations have been increasing their numbers?

Have you wondered why other training organisations are a bit miffed with Massey? How about trying to compete with a state funded organisation, one that reportedly received a 1 million dollar top up from university funds about 2 years ago.

If you were to look at any organisation you will find supporters and detractors. Hopefully there are more of the former than the latter. Because of the manner in which Massey has promoted itself there are plenty of people who are willing to be detractors.

[Massey058]

I would not say that I am particularly proud of the organisation. I am happy that I have had good instructors and lecturers to deal with, but as I have said in the past there have certainly been problems experienced within the organisation as with any.

One of the greatest problems with this organisation is the ineptitude of the 'parent company' and in the past senior management, but this seems to be changing with the new Head of School.

In terms of the Garuda advertising, I never knew about that until I started with Massey - Never saw any advertising talking about it and I strated researching in 2001.

If there are GA operators that have refused to employ Massey graduates then that says it all really, plenty of others have hired them.

I am not doing the the instructor course but know plenty who are and who have done, it is a very comprhensive course as far as instructor rating courses go. A major reason for people to go elsewhere would be the fact that they were behind in their flying and could not meet the deadline to join the instructor course, or they didn't want to pay the extra cost of the massey instructor course (more hours and over a longer timeframe).

You're right about there being a few people with unrealistic expectations though, but then you find those types of people aren't exclusive to Massey. However, I have never once heard anyone say anything about tranisitioning into a jet or even a regional turbo-prop job. All that I have ever heard is that it's a tough industry and that you need to be prepared to move and can't really expect much without hard work.

Dramatically dropping student numbers? Yes Ardmore was closed becuase it just didn't make sense as it was run almost as an independent entity and the distance between Albany and Ardmore makes concoting a timetable nigh on impossible. Consoldating to PM has meant that the intake at Milson is probably a little higher than in the past - if only the groups were smaller becuase the place is like a sardine tin.

Other organisations shouldn't really be miffed because if they had a 'parent company' as incompetent they would most likely require a top-up too.

[iceblock]

A few things to clarify:

27/09: Some of your comments are fair enough, Massey over the years has probably contributed to the image they have / are attaining through some of their marketing and things such as internal flight tests and equivalence. Whether this still goes on I am not sure, as it's been years since I kept up with what they are doing.

If the set up is still the same, the degree programme it self was designed to be integrated with the flying programme but the costs associated were quite separate. For the three year degree university fees were charged at the standard rate that everyone else was being charged to go to university based on 7 papers per year. The rest of the fees were costs associated with flying training. If you were to look at the acedemic side on it's own (which is the point we are discussing) the degree costs the same as a BA and has about as much use. Does it have any relevance? Well perhaps not, but does a BA or a major in philosphy. There are a huge proportion of degrees regarded as meaningless by most lay people and they are probably right, the Bav is not the only one. The rest of the costs for flying training I understand have risen and risen, but that is quite a separate issue all together. Believe it or not but the flying component used to be equivalent to an Aeroclub and in the old days lots of Aussies were going through as it was cheap in their dollar.

I am not "proud" of Massey that is not the word I would use, it was a place to get training and it did the job ok, much like any other place. The only points I like to make about Massey are to dispel some of the myths circulating. Things have changed since I was there and perhaps for the worse and I am happy to be corrected on them, but these continuous comments about high level maths and physics are not true.

A couple of other points:

The people that got excepted on the two Garuda course had already enroled and were close to finishing before they even knew about it. Yes there was one person who threatened legal action, but it was not because he was promised Garuda before he started. I understand Massey has probably pushed the whole Gaurda barrow a little too much, the whole thing was over pretty much 10yrs ago.

As for people going elsewhere to do their instructor rating. Well the way it is set up is that in your third year you major in a subject just like any other degree. Choices (a fair while ago) were things like managment, flight instruction and engineering. You could major in management and just pay the 3rd year university course fees therefore you certainly wouldn't then pay the extra money to do an instructor rating as well. So the choice was to major in Flight Instruction (be a massey flight instructor with associated additional costs) or major in a theory topic at normal uni fees. If you did the second option you could hardly then major in instructing after that it doesn't work. You will find people will do instructor ratings else where because of the way it is set up and perhaps choose this path to get experience outside of massey. (and quite frankly it was cheaper).

Anyone that has completed the degree has options for post graduate study and to complete a masters or even a doctorate. Obviously this is all pure theory with things like thesis's involved. If you think this is not real world then you would be right but that is really for an academic type. So is this degree of value, perhaps. Since it can be focused on topics such as management with an Aviation lean, and can be turned into a masters at some time I would suggest it can be of great use to someone interested in airline management either through direct entry or after flying in an airline for a while. While I was there Captains of overseas airlines such as Cathay were studying extramurially for a degree as they wanted further education with an aviation theme. They were only paying the normal uni fees as they were taking thoery papers only, after all it is a university and these things are allowed.

During my time there were lots of drop outs mainly because course were paid by Mummy and Daddy and these "kids" didn't even know if they wanted to be a pilot, it just seemed like a good idea. This is not an exclusively Massey thing.

So to summarise: If someone wants to do a degree so what? How they fly the plane is the only concern. If their traning isn't good enough they shouldn't have passed the flight test. If they have high expectations - good, so long as they realise they still have to do the hard yards. If they have a bad attitude - give them an "attitude ajustment" or don't employ them. If they have a great attitude and are willing to work hard and are a good standard but are not given a shot because of where they trained then that is very sad.

[What time is ECT?]

I won't debate the pros or cons of Massey here, because it is a great discussion when you are standing near the threshold watching aircraft land.

However, because Massey is a university, I think that my taxes are subsidising the course. This would make the true cost of the course so much higher!!! Scarey.

Please correct me if my taxes were not going to Massey - I would sleep better at night.

ECT

[fluxos]

Never would I have expected that that a simple thread asking about the Maths and Physics turn out this way =)

I have to agree with iceblock that it does not matter what the degree consist. Rather, it is the fact that you have that 'paper'.

That is why I am considering Massy as in 2/3 years, not only would I get the paper I need, but the flight training as well. With that 'paper', many opportunities would open up like direct entry as a F/O with SIA and Cathay, with just the bare hours.


27/09 would you like to substantiate this claim?
27/09: - some GA operators have refused to employ Massey graduates.

[NoseGear]

Fluxos, not to put you off the degree mate, I happen to think its a handy peice of paper, but you wont get into Cathay, Direct Entry F/O with the minimum hours just because you can wave a degree in their face:rolleyes: Just to fill you in A) there are no direct entry F/O's, unless you go on the Freighter fleet, and you need at least 1000hours jet time and 4000 hours minimum for that. B) Current mins for CX are 3000 hours total, with 1000 hours turbine, although like all things there are swings and roundabouts called supply and demand, but at the moment those are reasonably firm numbers. I think you can forget Singapore as well, no expats go there unless you go as a Captain, with the requisite experience required of that position.

Anyway, on with the debate!

Nosey

[fluxos]

Hi NoseGear,

Thanks for the constructive comments.

However, I believe I should clear some things up.

First of all, I am not an expat. I am a Singaporean and if I do get to work for SIA, I believe I would be considered a local/national? =)

Second, SIA does accept direct entry pilots (maybe it applies only to nationals?) with the bare minimum hours. I have first hand experience of this. Two friends studied at Massey several years ago, one of them currently works for SIA, while the other was rejected, but currently works for MAS. Both were accepted with the minimum hours.

Third, I am sure I have read somewhere before on CX's recruitment that states that even if you do not satisfy the minimum hours, they will still 'consider' you if you are a graduate. That slight glimmer of hope alone justifies that 'paper' worthy of pursuit. It is for me, at least.

Lastly, even if it means having to work for the freighter fleet, it beats being one of the many unemployed pilots I read so much about on pprune!

Alrighty, back to the debate.

[Luke SkyToddler]

See THAT is the problem ... people like fluxos honestly think that they can get a B. Av and get into Cathay or Singapore? I mean there's naive, and then there's ... well words fail me. Who the hell is telling them this stuff? If Massey are even implying that kind of nonsense in their latest marketing drive then someone needs to take them to the advertising standards agency. Preferably one of their many hundreds of disillusioned ex graduates who no longer work in the industry.

Iceblock where did I train? Well it was back in the mid 90s at a place Massey liked so much they BOUGHT the thing (and subsequently mismanaged it so badly they had to shut it down again). Correct, I actually worked for Massey for a few short months before I got so disgusted with the direction they were trying to take our previously-rather-good flying school, that I had to go elsewhere. That doesn't make me special but it does mean I'm not slagging them off quite as much from third hand gossip as you might believe.

And I'll substantiate 27/09's claim for him fluxos, because at the next place I went to, after I'd had a guts full of Massey management, a company that ran a substantial flying school and several piston twins doing air transport work. This is a true story I am relating here and I swear it is in no way exaggerated or being passed on third hand, the receptionist there actually told me, she had been given a policy by the big boss when she was opening and screening the CVs (of which we received several every day) that her policy should be to bin all c-cats-under-supervision and all massey cvs. That approach is maybe a bit harsh but it was certainly not unique in the GA industry at that time.

Look I have no axe to grind with people who can get through the B. Av and get jobs. There are plenty of them out there, and there are also plenty who couldn't find work once they finished. Just like any other flying school. The students themselves are like any other university students, the majority are good people and there's a few d!ckheads that everyone's got a story about. Just like any other flying school.

I have deliberately tried to steer away from the 'Massey-students-think-their-sh!t-don't-stink' that normally gets dragged out in these arguments (as it has in this one, but not by me!) My issue is with Massey management and no one else, flat out LYING to their prospective customers that the B.Av in some way enhances their employment prospects when everyone and I mean EVERYONE in the wider industry knows it's nothing but a worthless piece of paper. At best you're a normal, not-particularly-current, low hour CPL/IR looking for a job. At worst there are several GA operators that won't employ you, because they have had bad experiences with previous massey grads.

Just to spell it out in big crystal clear shining lights here, for those who still don't get it or find it hard to believe, because their shiny brochure from Massey marketing says something different ... there is not a SINGLE employer of new zealand commercial pilots, from the first level of skydiving or light piston charter, right through your turboprops and right up to Air NZ or Cathay, where the holder of a B.Av receives anything like preferential treatment because of their so called qualification.

There 'are' schools in the world like that, your Oxford Aviation etc such haughtney was alluding to earlier, that have preferential deals with big airlines in a country where employing fresh CPLs onto big jets is actually considered acceptable practice, but Massey is definitely not one of those schools and NZ is definitely not one of those countries.

So the question then becomes, why do it, why spend all the extra years and extra money and all the pain in the arse of studying irrelevant things like physics and calculus, when it's not going to get you a single step further up the very long queue of unemployed 200 hour pilots?

Going back to fluxos, you sound like the kind of guy I was referring to in my first post, thinking about flight training and clearly someone has given you the impression you might in some way be on a fast track to the big airlines, if you get this B.Av. Sorry to tell you mate but it just doesn't work like that. There's no easy road to the top in NZ, not at Massey or AFS or any aero club or anywhere else. We're all in the same boat on graduating from wherever we trained, all there is, for all of us, is hard work and b*gger all reward for 2 or 3 or 5 years or as long as it takes for you to get those 1000 hours / couple hundred multi. The Massey guys just the same. I just wish there was a bit more honesty from certain players in the business thats all :(

[NoseGear]

Ok Fluxos, I would think that being a Singaporean would help your cause with SIA, I don't work for them but I have heard they take nationals with lower hours. However, "Third, I am sure I have read somewhere before on CX's recruitment that states that even if you do not satisfy the minimum hours, they will still 'consider' you if you are a graduate. That slight glimmer of hope alone justifies that 'paper' worthy of pursuit. It is for me, at least."

I really hate to pop your ballon, but I think I know of what I speak when it comes to CX, and your statement is just plain wrong. I think you need to re-read my comments regarding the requirements to join CX. Please take note of the fact that the hours for the Freighter fleet are HIGHER than those for the S/O on the pax fleet, its no cakewalk to get in just because you have a degree:rolleyes:

As for Massey itself, I know of guys who went there and are great guys, good pilots etc etc, and then I know of a few the opposite way, just like anywhere else.

So far, a good debate, I hope there are some aspiring pilots out there reading this and learning. Especially Lukes last point about the hardwork, dedication and long road to the "top".

Nosey

[Massey058]

Luke, a well reasoned post I gotta say.

The degree isn't about studying calculus or physics, that is pretty much done and dusted with the bridging type papers alluded to earlier. The 'meat' in the degree is the stuff like naviagtion, human factors, CRM, aerodynamics, meteorlogy and systems etc which is far more than just enough to pass an ASL exam. It certainly doesn't enable you to slip into the head or even the midpoint of the 200hr CPL queue but it gives an amazing insight into the machinery, industry and environment.

The amount of information that is contained within each syllabus is immense and that is proabably one of the problems because trying to fit it all into 3 years is quite a lot to handle. But that aside the things taught certainly open you're mind and I believe will hopefully make me a safer pilot purely on the basis of absorbed knowledge and learning from the mistakes of others.

I have been taught by people from within the industry with varying backgrounds:
RNZAF Naviagtor/Wing Commander
LAME (737/SF34/CV580)
B747 Capt x 2
Military Pilot
Meteorologist
Surgeon
Psychologist

The stories alone give you a great insight into the industry. This isn't the sort of stuff you get exposed to in concentration if you do you're flying training at an aero club, or do a degree in accounting by stealth or some such thing (Not that I think either is a bad thing). But for me personally I wanted to do a degree and I wanted to fly and in close to three years I have achieved a CPL, IR, BGT theory, ATPL theory and will by the end of the year completed 32 academic papers. So when I am ready to join the queue I may have spent extra time and money to have the same hours as the other people ahead and behind me but I have ammassed a room full of information and experience that I might not have gained elsewhere, and despite some of the problems I've actually quite enjoyed it.

[fluxos]

Luke SkyToddler,

I did not fall for Massey's marketing gimmick. In fact, I have never heard anything about Massey making any 'claims' of 'amazing prospects'. Until pprune that is. Rather, it is through the first hand experience of my friends being able to join SIA/MAS with the bare hours that I base my opinions on.

NoseGear,

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I did some checking and indeed, it is not Cathay Pacific, but HKexpress instead. With the opportunity to join SIA, MAS, HKexpress and many more [there must be more!] just by being a graduate and having the relevant flying qualifications surely justifies the money and time spent on attaining the 'paper'? [Read below]


First Officers (Hong Kong Based)


Requirement:
• Completion of a recognized MCC course.
• Holder of a CPL and IR with in a pass in the ATPL theory subjects.
• Possesses a minimum of 1,000 hours flying time; however, graduates of pilots wishing to gain their first jet and airline job will also be considered.
• Demonstrates a commitment to safety, as well as the ability to be team players and good crew member.
• Good academic skills, in particular for dealing with the technical aspects of the most modern Regional Jet aircraft in airline service
• Able to work in a multi-cultural environment.

In addition, applicants of the above position require a valid and current ICAO pilot license acquire by examination, and acceptable to the Hong Kong Civil Aviation Department. A current unrestricted class One Medical Certificate (glasses may be acceptable) is also a key pre-requisite. Preferences will be given to those applicants who have the right of abode in Hong Kong. All pilots based in Hong Kong will be on local conditions of service.

All pilots will be tested knowledge and given a simulator evaluation. Type rating courses will be given to successful candidates.

Application Procedure

To apply, please complete the online application form http://202.66.107.59/hkexpress/recruitment/. Please note only short-listed candidates will be notified.

Personal data will be treated in strictly confidence and used for recruitment purpose only.

For more information or other career opportunities, please visit our website at http://www.hongkongexpress.com.

[NoseGear]

fluxos, I do think a degree will most certainly stand you in good stead when you have the requisite hours for an airline job. With CX, it works on a points system during the interview process and a degree certainly does help you with points, as does an intergrated flying course, such as Massey, but also with alot of other training providers. I personally have nothing against Massey or the B.Av, probably would liked to have studied it myself if was around then! I think what the posters here have been trying to say to you and others is to open your eyes and your ears, ask the relevant questions and decide for yourself where to do your training. But also to know that no matter where you do your training, you still have a long hard road to become eligable for employment. Those first 1000 hours can seem to really crawl by and can be very frustrating. Its when this happens that those that have the desire and commitment will get thru and others that don't will pull the pin. I can only say, it is worth the hard yards.
As for HK Express, I know a bit about them, as I met a group of them a few weeks ago. I understand they have hired 40 odd pilots, all of them experienced turbine drivers with several thousand hours plus. Maybe in the future they will look to less experienced pilots, and if they do, good luck to you.

I hope this thread has been of use to you and others.

Nosey

[haughtney1]

Having been away on a trip Ive missed the last few posts on this....

Massey 058..very good posts, the fact that you've had to go out into the big bad world and experience how tough it can be starting out suggests that with your attitude (i.e. your head screwed on the right way) you'll go far!:D

Luke...in a way mate Im glad I did a bit of my training at what was the previous incarnation of Massey at Ardmore, at least there was a degree of common sense, reality, and value for money. As you said, around the time I left(a bit before you), there really was a feeling of superiority in air (mayby my perception) and I also got the distinct impression that plenty of those that worked there were unhappy.

Fluxos...
I think the main thing you need to be thinking about is getting on with your flying, my personal experience is a little similar to yours....however I went down the route of getting qualified (through a flying school) and then completing a double degree...a plan A and a plan B so to speak. I honestly cant say I can see the relevance of a B Av in aviation today..I really cant.

On the overall subject matter of this thread; some very well reasoned and thought out arguements....I reckon the proof is in the pudding, quite simply the B Av qualification is viewed with derision and ridicule in many quarters(rightly or wrongly). Personally I think the US has got it right..(I can smell the rotten fruit being thrown at me now!)..a 3-4yr degree outside of aviation is viewed as a far more balanced education, than having one eggs all in one basket so to speak.

just my thoughts:ok:

[nike]

Possibly something to consider for those intending to stay in NZ on completion of ones training is that the pace in NZ has picked up greatly and in such, opportunities are available to pilots with the sort of hours that were previously unconsidered.

With that in mind, I think it is worth looking at putting yourself into the job market as quickly as possible. Committing yourself to 3 years (although I believe the 3rd year is mostly theory and in such this may provide the opportunity for work somewhere) may not be the best decision for the current climate.

For those promoting the 'added extras' of the degree, obviously the opportunity exists for any keen aviation enthusiast to delve deeper into the various areas of aviation being outside the scope of their non-degree style training and don't forget that there are many a guru (or is that gurii?) floating about flying schools and aeroclubs who may just have an anecdote or two to inspire the budding pilot. One doesn't have to confine oneself to a University to meet and mingle with intelligent, insightful characters.

Also, as has been said already the opportunity exists for one to complete the B.Av extramurally. If one desires to have the degree even having completed their basic pilot training elswhere, then this is still possible. You'll get credits for higher tickets & experience. The course work could be possibly easier as with your experience gained in training and the subsequent employment may aid you to understand the various particulars of certain papers.

Where ever you end up going, be sure that you are convinced that you have made the right choice. To get to that point, research is key. And, I wouldn't necessarily rate individual info from here that highly, but this site is good for (in the words of one particular lawyer), getting 'the vibe' on the differnt topics.
Asking direct, pertinent questions to those promoting the various schools and holding them accountable will serve you well.

Good Luck.

[up and go]

I know of an ex massey student who now works for Erickson Aircrane...one of the top Heavy lift helicopter companies in the world..
He is both competant and honest in his abilities...I know the company views him as an asset

[207's are pigs]

Sounds like Massey is pretty cheer aye. I did not get far at school, got to about standard 4 before i was wisked away to work at a sweat/ hoe house in the rotting ecto plasm slum lord town of eketehuna. What i did learn was instrumental in my future development as an outstanding human being. At my school we did not worry about this thing called maths, Au teacher said it was evil, and that pythagoras's theory was just a mathmatical way to find the local knock shop. Sadly he died of herpes, shame, he could have had a magical wrestling carreer.
Ok, back to school. All i learnt was the magical art of street fighter2 advanced combos and car conversion......can i cross credit this to massey? it is physics and mathmatical, cos we had to work out the odds as to whether it was owned by a local gang.

I have always been interested in flying, and flying low. I often fly low at the pubs so the ladies can access my genitalia through my see through hoff-esque speedos.
At the moment i have been flying extramurally, so far i have logged over 2000 hours on flight sim 2004, mainly in the c172. my instructor tells me i have to get upto 3000 hours before he will sign me out on the c185, can i cross credit this?
Admitedly, i have had trouble taking off, landing, and flying in general as my computer crashes due to low spechs, hopefully massey can correct this for me, as i want to fly Air NZ new 777, when i finish.

Regards

207

[pondoklabu]

Hello all, this question regarding Massey being worth the money has been around for nearly 20 years now.
I speak with a certain amount of Knowledge in this area having attended Massey nearly 15 years ago.
To the gentleman who wanted to know about Physics and GSCE equivalent, well if Massey doesn’t except it argue like hell because I am sure they should and at any rate any other university would...just my humble opinion though.

Quick facts for your digestion though

1 does having degree help with your first and any other Airline job.... NO it doesn’t

2 Does it detract in any way... no it doesn’t

3 does it waste time to stop you getting in the industry.... more difficult it depends do you want to be a airline pilot or something else, I personally would recommend the fastest route in all cases.

4 Is it a waste of money...again down to the individual.

5 if you graduate from Massey you wont be any better or worse then some other 200-hour inexperience pilot out there begging for a job

I have no trouble with Massey, but they are just a glorified flying school, so remember this if you are interested in enrolling.

As for other authors saying Massey have been misleading in their recruitment ads, well most flying schools are, disgraceful yes, but common place unfortunately.

I don’t know any one at Massey any more but when I went though 15 years ago the instructors were great but management in my dealing with 15 years and 10 years ago were nothing but arrogant incompetent and naive to the real world. I hope this has changed

Cheers