Female Pilots [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

HAHA

22nd Jul 2005, 07:56

Quite amused by the replies! My personal opinion is that the strategy the company have taken is a little risky and would offend women rather than encourage them.

As an aside, did anyone else see the program aired in the UK a week or so ago explaining why blokes were more suited to flying? (no... I'm not taking the p*ss!). It's all to do with the size of the wedding ring finger compared to the index finger.... apparantly!

Monocock

22nd Jul 2005, 08:04

When it comes to pilot aptitude I really don't think there is any difference at all between male and females.

Flying itself is not inherently difficult as far as I'm concerned. The skill is the way the pilot manages and prioritises his/her workload and it cannot be said that men are better than women in this department.

On a similar subject, I saw a solo female pilot taxying out a Stampe at Sandown last weekend. What a lovely sight!:ok:

GuinnessQueen

22nd Jul 2005, 08:43

HAHA,

Are you suggesting that size is important after-all?

GQ

HAHA

22nd Jul 2005, 08:49

GuinnessQueen,

I am indeed! According to this programme, the bigger your....... finger (i.e the closer in length your index finger is to your wedding finger) the more testosterone you've had since birth!

A bloke with a big difference was given the same tasks to do as a woman with little difference and she beat him hands down.

Does anyone know what the ratio, females to males, are accepted onto sponsorship schemes like the FlyBe one run by Cabair or the CTC scheme? Would be interesting to see how we compare in things like the Pilapt test.

High Wing Drifter

22nd Jul 2005, 08:52

I once viewed a documentary on BBC where they got three lads and three lasses. They each received the same amount of helicopter tuition and neither had any prior experience. The blokes did better initially (probably due to dewing-do more than anything), but the ladies soon overtook them and generally performed much better.

The clipboard huggers reckoned this was because of womens inate ability to do several tasks at once. Whereas us fellahs have to work at it a little more. I hasten to add, they didn't get to do any navigation :E

HAHA

22nd Jul 2005, 08:58

Navigation is an interesting one. Women are better than blokes when it comes to recognising navigating by features when they've been somewhere before but lads are better at map reading.

It\'s an interesting discussion but where on earth did Tayside get the "monkey chattering" from and do they really think it'll help business?!

englishal

22nd Jul 2005, 09:16

Everyone knows that women are better at multi-tasking.

I keep reminding my Mrs of this when she's nattering to me while I'm trying to watch telly. She'll be going on and on about something, over the top of the telly (and hence I can't take the TV program in) and then she'll start talking about the telly program, which I've totally missed because she's been nattering, yet she's taken it all in !

Far superior to men......in many ways ;)

FullyFlapped

22nd Jul 2005, 13:36

But is it safe to fly in bare feet, and does the iron get hot enough when powered from the cigar-lighter socket ? :D

{half way down the drive, still accelerating ....}

FF :ok:

stiknruda

22nd Jul 2005, 15:34

My ex could talk AND p!ss me off at the same time - how's that for multi-tasking?

Whirlygig

22nd Jul 2005, 16:29

The page in question (http://www.taysideaviation.co.uk/flying/learning/female.html)
Bless. I think they are trying to be well-meaning in encouraging more women to try flying but somehow, I feel it may have fallen flat. But perhaps I'm in no position to comment as I already have a PPL and didn't need any encouragement to do it - I was going to do it and ain't nobody was gonna stop me!

Monocock, is it me to whom you refer or my very good friend Whirlybird? Careful how you answer that!

Cheers

Whirls

Monocock

22nd Jul 2005, 18:42

I was referring to Whirlybird but only because deep down I am scared of her...:bored:

Gerhardt

22nd Jul 2005, 18:47

*looks up* Yeah, we all are. But not just her...but all females.

AerBabe

22nd Jul 2005, 21:16

Why's that then?

*smiles sweetly and tries to look innocent*

Monocock

22nd Jul 2005, 21:29

*arrives home with a new Tefal steam dispensing iron*

"Have I missed anything today dear?"

:}

Whirlygig

22nd Jul 2005, 22:45

because deep down I am scared of her...
Monocock,

I don't believe we have met?!

Cheers

Whirls

Whirlybird

23rd Jul 2005, 08:41

I haven't met Monocock either.

I guess I just have ever so, ever so scary posts. Maybe they leap out of the page and attack you or something? :confused:

Now for a complete digression - I was apparently the first woman in the UK to fly a Schweizer 333 yesterday!!!!! What does this prove? Absolutely nothing. Why am I telling you? No reason - just a monkey-chattering thought which surfaced in my brain as I was writing. ;)

AerBabe

23rd Jul 2005, 08:55

I've met Monocock. I found him quite scary, especially when he said he thought I'd bought a Mini-Moke, not a MG Midget. :confused: His landing and take-off were quite scary too.

Maude Charlee

23rd Jul 2005, 09:26

"Navigation is an interesting one. Women are better than blokes when it comes to recognising navigating by features when they've been somewhere before" - like Tescos you mean?

I say monkeys are smarter, but they can't get the med certificates.

Monocock

23rd Jul 2005, 11:32

My departues and landings are very scary indeed.

I knew there was a downside to having a female instructor back in '89. :p

ariel

23rd Jul 2005, 15:48

Has this subject not been done to death in various guises on different occasions.

For goodness sake, give it a rest.... who cares?.....

Monocock

23rd Jul 2005, 17:37

Keep yer hair on ariel! It's only light hearted banter.

From your name one assumes you are female?? I can't believe a guy would name himself after a washing powder....

:}

distaff_beancounter

23rd Jul 2005, 17:37

ariel Don't be a spoil sport - we just love any chance to wind up the fellas! :)

Whirlybird

23rd Jul 2005, 18:49

ariel,
As another woman who works in aviation, I sympathise. ;) The same old banter happens too often and can get too predictable, can't it? Which is probably why I left this thread for a day before reading it........and was then going to leave it for a week in order to cost Monocock 50 quid!!!!! :) But I didn't quite manage that...must be all those monkey-chattering thoughts again. There's obviously only one solution to dealing with them - I must fly more!!!!! Right, that's settled that then.

And yes, Monocock, ariel is definitely female.

Whirlygig

23rd Jul 2005, 18:53

I can't believe a guy would name himself after a washing powder....
I don't think a girl did either - suspect it's a little more Shakespearian than that???

Educated women eh? Dangerous!

If a little knowledge is dangerous, just think how much chaos we could create with a lot!!

Cheers

Whirls

Monocock

23rd Jul 2005, 19:35

OK, Ok, OK

But WHO was the chick in the Stampe last Sunday?:O

I've just realised I'm the only bloke in this debate.......... :ooh:

ChampChump

23rd Jul 2005, 21:40

Not the same one who is checked out in everything at the Tiger Club (they've sold the Stampe now, for a Cap 10 instead) because she's been busy doing formation flying displays in the Turb Team.

Enviously,
'CC
(and yes, we have met but you didn't seem to mind, but I wasn't in scary mode at the time)

Brasher

24th Jul 2005, 01:49

ariel -

Yes this topic has been done to death a million times. It's evident in all walks of life but in my opinion these days it is generally, as Monocock says, light hearted banter.

Women are more than capable of not only sticking up for themselves but giving as good as, or better than, they get. I get it at least once a week that my girlfriend earns more than me.

There is one thing that intregues me - women want equal rights, equal pay etc but they still want to see chivlalry from us blokes (opening doors etc).

Monocock

24th Jul 2005, 08:07

Where have we met CC?

I am now intrigued....

Please don't twll me you are a certain colour of headsets "re-incarnated"........That would really ruin my day:uhoh:

Whirlybird

24th Jul 2005, 08:12

There is one thing that intregues me - women want equal rights, equal pay etc but they still want to see chivlalry from us blokes (opening doors etc).

That's interesting. I don't. I dislike it actually; I find it unnecessary and silly....feel like I'm supposed to wait for this damned door to be opened instead of barging through in my normal fashion. But I tolerate and accept it graciously because I don't think it's a big deal either way, and I know it's well meant.

Who are these women you talk of, Brasher? And how do the other women posting on this thread feel about this, just out of idle curiosity?

Whirlygig

24th Jul 2005, 08:56

hhmmm. chivalry.... interesting word with mediaeval and romantic connotations. I'm not sure about chivalry but I am sure about courtesy, manners and politeness and yes, I DO expect those from men. I also expect courtesy, manners and politeness from women and both genders will receive the same from me.

If I go through a door, I will always look behind to see if anybody is following and hold the door open. I expect that of anybody in return.

If I am approaching a door at the same time as someone else, I will open it and let them through first.

If a man does the same for me, I will thank him and assume that he has done it because he was well-brought and well-mannered, not just because I'm a woman.

It must be so difficult for you blokes to remember when you must be polite and when you needn't be - try doing it all the time and then you can't complain of unequal treatment or expectations.

Cheers

Whirls

Brasher

24th Jul 2005, 09:11

Good point, well presented!

Flik Roll

24th Jul 2005, 09:45

I can't believe that they have even had to make a separate plage for women pilots... it's an equal opportunities sport/hobby/job after all!

(and i suspect many would find that offensive - i don't, i just laughed cos it looks so pants with two girls sat in a pants aeroplane with a yoke :yuk: )

MikeGodsell

24th Jul 2005, 10:16

I know this thread is a light hearted bit of banter. But on a serious note, spare a thought for those female airline pilots whose reputations have been rubbished by Jessica (Judas) Sharmer. The female pilots that I flew with had overcome tremendous predudice and obstacles to get an airline job.
It is a sad day that their dedication and enthusiasm for flying has been made worthless by the actions of one very cunning and selfish woman.
MG :(

HAHA

24th Jul 2005, 10:25

Excuse my ignorance but I don't know who she is. Couldn't find anything on Google/PPrune. Would be interested to know more. (PM if you would rather not post here)

Cheers

distaff_beancounter

24th Jul 2005, 10:45

HAHA - It is on Pprune in the Rumours & News forum - Jessica Starmer - BALPA's view ...

Sorry I have not worked out how to post a link - but I am only a woman!!! ;)

Whirlygig

24th Jul 2005, 10:49

Jessica STarmer (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4160447.stm)

...and one of the many pprune threads (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158593&highlight=starmer)

MikeGodsell,

You raise a valid point but I would also like to add that I believe it is eveyone's (corporate and personal) obligation to help bring up the new generation.

If women pilots in the airlines have suffered, why is that? Do not men think it reasonable that a woman should want to bring up her child?

The prejudice that we often face (although I get less and less as I get older!) is that ALL women want to have children and it is not true; it is not a valid assumption that if you recruitment a woman of 20-40, she will leave after two years costing the employer maternity pay etc. However, if she does have a child, then surely we should all give some support (direct or otherwise) in the raising of that child in order to, ultimately, continue with the species?

I am more than fully aware that it is ILLEGAL, in any job interview to ask a woman whether they plan to have any/more children. I have been asked that question and refused to answer it. I didn't get the jobs in question.

Cheers

Whirlygig

Whirlybird

24th Jul 2005, 13:20

Whirlygig,

If I remember the Jessica Starmer case correctly, she didn't have the hours/experience for BA to allow her to work half-time, but her husband did. In terms of bringing up their kids, it would have been perfectly possible for him to work part time. BA claimed that it was a safety issue, and from what I know about flying less hours when you're inexperienced, that makes sense to me. It wasn't a gender issue, till she tried to make it one. If I'm remembering correctly - and if I'm not, let me know and I'll delete the post - then basic logic says she should have lost her case.

IMHO, it's about time everyone realised that both parents are responsible for bringing up children. Jessica had a right to want to bring up her child, but no right to expect that BA should change their rules to let her, when the child's other parent could have done so.

However, if other women in the airlines have suffered, that is prejudice, pure and simple. If a red-haired man beats you up, does that make all red-haired men bad? In the light of recent events, are all Moslems evil? Becasue Hitler was German, are all Germans damned for eternity? Because I'm 5ft 2ins tall, does that mean all women are short? And because one woman wins a case where she shouldn't, why should that affect the way other women are viewed?

Sadly, I suspect it has/will. But whatever else you blame Jessica Starmer for, you can't blame her for that. She is not responsible for the world's view of half the human race.

MikeGodsell

24th Jul 2005, 13:20

Wirlygig, Ha Ha.

This has been debated al length and with much heat! on Rumours & News.

What seems to have come out of that debate is:
An airline pilots job is not the same as an office job, plumber, etc.
If an airline pilot fouls-up, people are going to die. Therefore airline pilots must be fit, competant, and do enough flying to remain ahead of the game. (Enough spare mental capacity to cope with an emergency)

British Airways have a good reputation as an equal opportunites employer, and generous in time off for maternity reasons. But in the case of one women pilot they have had to say "NO, you can't have more than a year off work on full pay, then come back to fly only 50% of normal hours! Safety comes first"

To have a successful flying career, and bring up a family has always been a difficult balancing act for women airline pilots. But many have managed it and become captains. However J.S. is not in that calibre. She seems to be deliberately milking the system in a shameless way.

I realise that times have changed, and yes employers should take responsibility for the children of their employees. But the principle of a "fair days pay for a fair days work" is still valid.

I am outraged at the actions of J.S. and of BALPA who supported her. But I am an old aviator, possibly a bit out of touch, and you should make up your own minds as to the rights & wrongs of the situation.
MG:ugh:

Whirlygig

24th Jul 2005, 14:28

I was trying to steer clear of the particulars of the case and look at the general reasons behind the claims that other female pilots have been held back.

As Whirlybird says, if that is the case then it is prejudice, pure and simple; prejudging a group of women on the basis of one woman's actions.

We have somehow ended up living in a litigious society but we can't (employers as well as employees) all believe that going to law will solve the injustices of this world and we can't all assume that that is the course of action which people will take.

Cheers

Whirlygig

ChampChump

24th Jul 2005, 16:55

Where have we met CC?

Popham, about 2nd May (I think). 'CC was parked next to you. My headset is most definitely Telex grey...

The brain gets a bit fluffy sometimes (I NEVER dust) but this:uhoh: colour? Negative!

S-Works

25th Jul 2005, 10:03

I had no idea there were female pilots. How do they hold the stick with soap suds on there hands........

:O

God I am going to get battered for that one............ :D

HAHA

25th Jul 2005, 11:19

Personally, I feel that it's companies like Tayside Aviation through pages like their female pilots page and comments like "monkey chattering thoughts" are encouraging women to be treated differently to men. I guess some people might call it positive discrimination but alas, it boils down to the same thing - people being treated differently.

"I had no idea there were female pilots." - Oh the ignorance! One of the best instructors I've ever had is female. Flys big stuff now and apparantly is damn good at it.

In fact bose-x, have you ever had a girlfriend??!! <banter!!>
:D

S-Works

25th Jul 2005, 11:33

Girlfriend? Whats up with a copy of razzle.........:p

Whirlygig

25th Jul 2005, 15:05

How do they hold the stick with soap suds on there hands........

Or even "their" hands! I don't know about you but I dry my hands after I've washed them? And I let the hand cream soak in first! I hope you even wash your hands especially after
a copy of razzle......... :p

Seriously though, I thought Tayside web page a little ...er... shall we say... ill-advised but, just as there are women who prefer to have a female driving instructor (and I know as my bestest friend is a driving instructor and she rakes in the money from female students) there might be women who'd prefer a female flying instructor. Personally, I couldn't give a rat's ar$e as long as they were good but there are often confidence issues that a woman may prefer to deal with with another woman.

And with some of the cr@p one hears; is it any wonder? Perceived or otherwise?

Cheers

Whirls

2Donkeys

25th Jul 2005, 15:17

Advertisers' problems with sex go further than the odd ill-advised advert supposedly targeted at women. Consider this advert from "Headset Services" targeted, one imagines, at male pilots:

http://www.headsetservices.com/adverts/atc.gif

Presumably, we are supposed to be drawn to the product because a semi-clad woman is wearing it.

Worse still but not relevant to the thread, this particular woman doesn't actually look particularly pleased to be in the photo, and I would guess, is not a professional model - perhaps an unwilling employee coaxed into it...

2D