time between checking notam's and vfr flight.

[got caught]

Its not always possible to check notam's at the flying club, immediately prior to flying, so I always check the night before at work via the ais web site.

Is this acceptable? If not, what is a reasonable time period from checking to flying. Many thanks in advance.

[dmjw01]

Checking the night before is a helluva lot better than what many people do - which is nothing.

You do occasionally get "pop-up" NOTAMs for things like police investigations that happen suddenly - Soham springs to mind from a few years ago, for example.

You would be incredibly unlucky to get caught out by one of these, and if you were prosecuted then I would expect you could use the fact that you checked the NOTAMs the night before as mitigation.

It's worth noting that the AIS site does make it easy to do a quick update on a NOTAM check. Simply find the NOTAM check that you did last night, select it and click "Update". That will exclude all the NOTAMs you've already seen, and will probably result in a message to the effect that there's nothing there - in other words, no NOTAMs have popped up overnight. You could do this before you leave the house and it would take about 2 minutes.

[justsomepilot]

The answer is that there is no cutoff time for notam data! It can be added at any time.

[bookworm]

In pre-Internet days, bulletins were sent out by post twice a week. It was assumed, I think, that anything from the last couple of days would be picked up by ATS units and passed on by RT.

There's an argument that the reasonable time period is now shorter just because it can be. But IMHO a few hours is quite reasonable. There's also an argument for talking to a relevant ATS unit!

[DFC]

Don't have it to hand now but there is a relevant figure published.

Basically ATS are expected to tell you of NOTAM/Sigmets/Warnings which are issued after a certain time prior to your departure (it could be as little as 30 minutes). Before that time you are expected to have checked.

On a practical basis, in the end it will come down to you making a "reasonable" attempt to obtain a briefing. In these days of mobile telephones, you could get a brief before leaving the house and then ring AIS for an update prior to departure.

If you are departing from the absolute middle of nowhere then perhaps no recent briefing would reasonably be the best you could do (but you would have to prove that).

Airfields I think are required to have adequate facilities........your local farmers field won't have a FBU......this could be taken as having less than the required facilities and thus you could be asked whay you did not make appropriate arrangements (carrier pigeon :D ) before starting to operate from there.

Regards,

DFC

[Gerhardt]

Not sure where you're from, but in the U.S. the preflight weather briefer will give you NOTAMs. And a weather briefing from the prior night just won't do. The object here is safety, not just avoiding getting busted. (not that you didn't already know that, though)

Cheers!

[Julian]

Yep, dont you just love 1-800-WX-BRIEF

More than just a just a weather briefing service and free as well ! I think our good old met office will weather brief you but for the princley sum of £17 !!!!!:}

Julian.

[slim_slag]

You can also call up FSS on the radio at any time. Always a good idea to ask about recent NOTAMS when activating a flight plan.

[IO540]

DFC

Do you actually fly aeroplanes?

Here in the UK, most airfields have a means of filing flight plans but most don't have public internet access. There is a way to do most things by phoning around but for a long flight one needs to get a narrow route briefing and that can be done only over the internet.

One cannot "prove" that something was not possible. The court could always say that in 2005 a pilot should carry a laptop with GPRS/G3. I am 100% sure that departing from the middle of nowhere would be no defence at all if you busted a notamed airshow.

The present system is OK for pilots that do "burger runs". Perhaps this is what most GA VFR pilots do?

[englishal]

In the UK....before I head to the airport. Which means about 3 hours before take off.

In the US, the last thing I do before heading to the plane is phone 1800WXBRIEF.......

[Yorks.ppl]

I went flying last week from sherburn, In the morning one of the girls in our office had said there was a no fly zone over leeds, following the london bombings, I checked the notams and found nothing.

When I got to sherburn 1 hour later there was a sign on the door warning of the no fly zone.

If I had been flying from a private strip I would not have known and could have flown right through it, not sure of the results of that!

so even an hour can make all the difference, although I suspect some kind ATC may have put me wise, but not everyone has radio.

[TCAS FAN]

Sorry Chaps (and Chapesses), its probably a no win situation. As an aircraft commander, you are bound by the provisions of ANO Article 43, to "reasonably satisfy himself before the aircraft takes off.....that the flight can safely be made, taking into account the latest information available.....".

Part of the problem that I've encountered is that some airport operators change a procedure "WIE" (ie "with immediate effect"). This gives you no chance if you have recently got airborne.

While, to the letter of the law, you can probably argue that you have reasonably satisfied yourself, if its something that you have to rely on or use while en-route, you don't need a stroppy controller telling you that you've got it wrong.

While there is an established system (the AIRAC 28 day cycle) for promulgating major procedure changes, thereby permitting Aerad/Jeppeson etc time to change their charts, can the CAA not, for flight safety sake ban "WIE" procedure changes, unless they are warranted by an immediate flight safety need?

[got caught]

Thanks for the replies.

The ideal solution would be access to the ais web site immediately prior to flying, but unfortunately, internet access isn't available at the club, or at home.

I must say that the flying club is pretty good, posting relevant (local) notams in prominent places, and I reckon I'm aware of 99 % of potential prolems before flying. II'd rather have 100%.

[bar shaker]

Its an interesting paradox.

The more information that is available and the faster it can be accessed, the more we are bound by it.

Anyone that has been without a mobile phone recently, for just one day, will know what I mean.

I read them the night before.

[Pierre Argh]

I know its a fact that many clubs/pilots do not have internet access? C'mon... when one considers the cost against the other costs involved in aviation it is amazing this is still the case... particularly with the incessant trend towards on-line data disemination? (a basic PC can be bought for less than the cost of a GPS and broadband access for 50p a day)

It's pretty obvious to me, commit aviation and you're entering an exciting, but dangerous world where ignorance is no excuse. If you are required to check data before flight the sooner you do so, and the more comprehensive your search, the safer that information will be... the longer you leave it, the greater the chance of paying the price.

(...and don't rely on the ATSU to update you. They probably will, (duty of care etc) but this will be subject to workload and having sufficient knowledge of your flight profile and intentions and does not absolve you of any responsibility.)

[FullyFlapped]

I suspect Yorks.PPL's post above contains the commonsense answer.

His reference to the non-appearance (in the NOTAMs) of the TRA over Leeds last week is absolutely correct, I found the same problem. However, he's also correct in that Leeds Radar/Approach would have told him instantly if he'd checked in with them - in fact they were doing that for a lot of people.

His final comment regarding those who fly non-radio is interesting : I don't want to reopen that can of worms, but if someone who is non-radio busts (say) a pop-up TRA which hasn't been NOTAMed, is he culpable (provided he operates in the open FIR etc) ?

FF :ok:

[Pierre Argh]

TCAS Fan quotes...
ANO Article 43, to "reasonably satisfy himself before the aircraft takes off.....that the flight can safely be made, taking into account the latest information available.....".

So I would suggest therefore a non-radio equipped aircraft encountering a "pop-up" TRA would have a reasonable defence providing the pilot could prove (s)he had departed before the restriction came into force...

What does a TRA really provide though... a guarantee of protection? Not really, only a possible chance to prosecute any infringement after the event.

[Mike Cross]

No-one's mentiond 0500 354802, a free service which gives you a recording of all of the mandatory restrictions (TRA's and temporary airspace upgrades). This is updated each day and will be updated during the day in the event of an emergency TRA. Note that it only contains info relevant to the current day.

And of course we do have a 24 hour a day free briefing service available on 020 8745 3450/3451. (OK so it's not a freephone call).


All the contact details are here. (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/contact.htm)

Everything has to be paid for in some way or another, (the current official thinking being that the user pays). Given that we don't pay for it I think what we have is rather good.

I'm not aware of any prosecutions where the defence tried to argue that the provisions of Art 43 were complied with.

[boomerangben]

If you check the night before, most of the "planned" activity that requires a NOTAM will have been posted. Anything else is likely to be short term and localised. If your departure aerodrome has a FIS or ATC service, they will be able to tell you about any pop up NOTAMs. If you flying from a farm strip or A/G then a call to the nearest FIS provider will give you an up date. Lack of internet access or mobile phone coverage shouldn't stop you from aviating.

[Pierre Argh]

Boomerangben

Lack of internet access or mobile phone coverage shouldn't stop you from aviating
... true, but lack of knowledge of NOTAMs etc may well do!!!

By the way, thanks for "volunteering" the FIS units to give you information. Not saying they won't help, but I doubt they'd welcome your call because what you ask is much easier said than done... they'd need knowledge of your route (fairly intimate knowledge if it was outside the local area), your level and times. Having plotted all that information, they'd probably need to go onto the CAA Website to extract the latest warnings, glean out what was relevant before they'd be able to pass it onto you... or of course you could just do it yourself?

[TCAS FAN]

Boomerangben

"If your departure aerodrome has a FIS or ATC service, they will be able to tell you about any pop up NOTAMs."

Don't bet on it! If it is local to the aerodrome/ATZ that you are departing, probably "yes". If it relates to somewhere en-route, most probably "no".

A busy FISO or controller is probably working unaided with possibly multiple aircraft in the circuit. He or she will therefore be concentrating on their primary function, ie the safety of aircraft that they have in contact on the ground and within the ATZ, without having time to attempt to provide an en-route FIS. The latter responsibility is delegated by CAA to NATS, ie "London Information". Best of luck with them on a busy weekend!

Not easy is it?

[IO540]

Worth mentioning that an ATCO has NO obligation to inform the pilot that he is where he should not be.

While UK controllers are usually professional and will normally volunteer information like that, they can do it only if they know where the pilot is. This is unlikely to be so unless they have radar, or unless there is a huge prohibited area which "everybody" knows about e.g. an airshow.

So don't expect London Info to tell you about something - unless you have told them you are above Eastbourne in which case they will probably tell you that you have just flown through the Red Arrows :O

Outside the UK, all bets are off. ATC can be dead casual, they can ignore you, or they can be actually asleep. Or (especially if French) they can watch you on radar, busting some TRA for which there is a massive fine, start filling in the forms there and then but they still won't tell you what you have done. 6 months later you get a letter from the CAA wishing to prosecute on behalf of the DGAC.

So I am afraid that mobile internet access IS essential if doing serious flying. Not just for Notams of course (which done the day before will be fine 99% of the time) but for weather (which done the day before is unlikely to be any good :O )

The world is moving on. This is the 21st century now. One can file flight plans via the internet too (homebriefing.com, and others). One can send the three often-mandatory faxes (immigration, special branch, customs) out of a laptop with GSM, with minimal hassle. Flight planning should be done electronically anyway - circular slide rules are for masochists. The whole preflight process can now be done in a simple fashion, no matter where you are.

While all this will be alien to many occassional flyers, the reality is that they have the same privileges as the rest of us, they share the same complicated airspace, and IMO the only reason we don't have a string of epic disasters is that most PPLs rarely fly and when they do they don't venture very far, sticking to well known routes. This sort of flying gets very boring (for most) and it's no suprise that most PPLs chuck it in very soon indeed.

[Yorks.ppl]

So I am afraid that mobile internet access IS essential if doing serious flying.
Flight planning should be done electronically anyway - circular slide rules are for masochists.
IMO the only reason we don't have a string of epic disasters is that most PPLs rarely fly and when they do they don't venture very far, sticking to well known routes. This sort of flying gets very boring (for most) and it's no suprise that most PPLs chuck it in very soon indeed.



Goodness me, how rude!

[boomerangben]

IO,

In my experience FISOs and ATCOs are pretty good at alerting pilots to TRAs/TDAs.

As for berating the cirular slide rules - shame on you. Excellent bits of kit. By the time I have switched on the old PSION and programmed in the route, the Dalton has the answer.

Having a laptop would be the Rolls Royce solution to flight planning, but having one is not essential for serious flying. We manage some pretty serious flying without one.

[Pierre Argh]

boomerangben

don't get distracted by the pseudo-personal attacks... yes a UK ATCO will probably advise you of pop-up TRAs etc and relevant NOTAMs... but it does depend on them knowing where you are i.e. probably in receipt of a radar service. But even then such notification will be a low priority.

FISOs probably don't have the benefit of radar, so notification will depend on your position reports and their local knowledge... the further you are away from the airfield that is likely to diminish.

As for serious flying... glad you can carry that out (and why not), but if you are serious about flying you I assume you would want to/do approach the whole business in a professional manner... which might include using the best tools available for the job?

[DFC]

IO540,

.....IMO the only reason we don't have a string of epic disasters is that most PPLs rarely fly and when they do they don't venture very far, sticking to well known routes. This sort of flying gets very boring (for most) and it's no suprise that most PPLs chuck it in very soon indeed.

Agree totally with that piece.

I think that Mike Cross and UK AIS should have a serious look at what is available out there and the link you provided is one of the better ones.

However, when claiming that every pilot should have the best equipment and mobile internet access you are slightly missing the point.

Airfields are required to provide certain services. Pilots are required to ensure that before making use of an airfield that the services available meet their requirements. Licensed airfields will detail the available services in the AIP and unlicensed ones will provide that info via the owner/manager who provides the prior permission.

Pilots will not fly to an airfield without refueling facilities unless they have made alternative arrangements for fuel. They should not also fly to airfields with no met or notam briefing services unless they have made appropriate arrangements.

In your case you make your own arrangements for others this could be a phone call to AIS or to their Club or Company base or whatever.

While met info is available free on the internet, the met office is unwilling to let people ring up for essential met information without being charged a premium. Why?.........I believe that it is to prevent those that can be bothered checking the internet simply ringing up - and thus we are back to the good old PPL shooting themselves in the foot.

Too many PPL simply can't be bothered with anything other then flying i.e. they don't read the AIP or NOTAM and only check the basic weather........and it is our collective fault for letting the situation continue.......to many blind eyes being turned at poor airmanship and too many instructors unwilling to insist of proper standards from all pilots.

Regards,

DFC

[Mike Cross]

FWIW the ATCO's and particularly the FISO's at Swanwick have been having a problem with the sheer voume of NOTAM info. While a Narrow Route Brief on the AIS site brings it down to a reasonable quantity if you are expected to carry a mental picture of the entire FIR's activities it's more of a problem. For this reason NATS/AIS has provided some additional briefs here. (http://www.nats.co.uk/operational/pibs/index.shtml) These are for Danger Areas and Nav Warnings to make it easier for them to update their State Boards.

Art 43 is quite clear that it is the commander's responsibility so you should not rely on ATSU's to tell you things.

If push comes to shove the test is one of reasonableness. If you brief before going to the airfield then a court would probably feel that you acted reaonably. If you briefed on Friday for a flight on Saturday afternoon they might not. If you infringed something that was not in your brief (e.g. an emergency TRA that popped up after you had briefed) you would IMHO have a good defence.

Mike

[got caught]

If you briefed on Friday for a flight on Saturday afternoon they might not.

thanks, that answers my question.

New laptop it is.

[IO540]

Come on boys and girlz. I know my writing style on here is usually pretty forthright but how can a reasonable man (or a girl) get offended by what I wrote? One could be constructive and pick it apart piece by piece ... but this?

Where does it say that an airfield is required to provide internet access (so the pilot can get a narrow route briefing, or get weather data beyond the standard F215 etc)?

Also, getting the info at an airfield is of no use if one has just fallen out of bed in the B&B and wants to know if the weather is any good for the next leg of the journey. Having to go to the airfield to get weather or notams (but especially weather) is next to useless, except for occassional pilots who pop up on nice days only. The "system" appears to work but only because most people don't go anywhere, and those that do have either got it sorted (and don't hang about on here) or they are retired people with loads of time.

MikeC - this is all very good stuff; the problem is that it all falls apart when going abroad. One needs a much greater degree of independence then and this is what my earlier comments were partly aimed at.

The UK isn't all that hard; if one really wants to, one can be talking to somebody all the time and one can create work by offering waypoints and ETAs to each waypoint (the sort of thing PPL students do with London Info) and then one has a fair chance of being told of something. It's abroad that one really has to be very sure of things.

And it so happens that the best flight planning tools all run on a PC. So why not just do it properly? One can pick up a laptop with a GPRS card, on Ebay, for the cost of a full tank of avgas. Navbox Pro, and most will never look back.

Ultimately one has to blame the standard of PPL training, which prepares pilots for simple flying, on perfect days, from their home airfield to some nearby place where they sell burgers. But one can't expect a flying school to do anything about this - their #1 job is to take £5k-£10k from every person who walks through the door and nobody can reasonably expect them to do otherwise. If anyone in the UK is in a position to be pro-active in improving things, it is the CAA. They won't do it - modernisation is an alien concept in the GA dept there.

[englishal]

I wonder what would happen if you had an N painted on the side and you phoned 00 1 800 WXBRIEF for a briefing ;)

[Mike Cross]

WRT briefing while abroad, the AIS of the State within whose airspace the flight originates is in theory the correct place to go. For example French Class D NOTAM do not get distributed outside the Schengen States, so you won't pick them up from UK AIS.

More and more AIS are using the Internet to provide their service. You'll find most of them here. (http://www.eurocontrol.int/ais/links/europe.htm)

Echo IO540's comments. ProPlan for planning and the Internet for Wx and NOTAM is by far the easiest. However I carry the whizzwheel and am quite happy to use it when necessary.

Mike

[Rod1]

I have just come back from 8 days touring France. Between Internet access for a few Euro at the hotel, and Olivia, which is now available at most French aerodromes, there was no need to waste valuable baggage weight carrying a portable. I use Navbox at home, but a typical 150 nm route in France can be planed with the rule in less time than the portable will need to boot up.

Rod1

[IO540]

MikeC - Can you elaborate about these "Class D notams"? Do you have a reference for all the classes of notams (that are relevant to pilots flying VFR or IFR in Class G-C outside the UK) which are not visible via ais.org.uk?

What mechanism within the AIS distribution system is used to ensure that certain items get distributed only to Schengen states?

Surely any info about stuff that pilots ought to know MUST be distributed. One can legally get a notam brief from ais.org.uk ONLY on a flight departing UK and with a half decent plane one could easily cross all of France and one or two other countries after that.

I am vaguely aware of the "copout" that one is supposed to use each national AIS service for a flight departing in that country but the range of a reasonable tourer makes nonsense of that since most of them could go anywhere in Europe and still depart from the UK. And that's before we got onto longer range stuff.

[Mike Cross]

Apologies, should have read Series D not Class D

From the French AIP (http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/aip/enligne/METROPOLE/AIP/GEN/3/AIP%20FRANCE%20GEN%203.1.pdf) 3.1.3.2 THE NOTAM
a) The NOTAM series
Depending on the subject, NOTAM are issued in the following series:
Series A: Information of a general international scope and concerning more particulary long range flights (for international pubication).
Series B: Information of a limited international scope and concerning more particulary other flights (restricted international publication limited to the European region).
Series D: containing information on aerodromes used for general aviation. Publication are restricted to the countries involved within the scope of SCHENGEN agreements (Germany, Austria, Belgium,Denmark, Finland, Greece, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Portugal, Sweden, Iceland and Norway).
It's a French decision, nothing to do with the UK.

Also from the French AIP GEN 1.2-5
Moreover, the first landing and the last take off of any non commercial flights must be made at an airport open to international traffic.
Ergo if you are arriving from abroad in accordance with the rules you will not require Series D. If however you are flying internally to an airport not open to International Traffic you will.

Hope this helps.

Mike

[boomerangben]

IO,

Come on boys and girlz. I know my writing style on here is usually pretty forthright but how can a reasonable man (or a girl) get offended by what I wrote? One could be constructive and pick it apart piece by piece ... but this?

None taken, I never felt you were carrying out a "pseudo personal" attack on me as Pierre suggested.

Pierre,
As for serious flying... glad you can carry that out (and why not), but if you are serious about flying you I assume you would want to/do approach the whole business in a professional manner... which might include using the best tools available for the job?

I would like to think I have a professional approach to flying, but I do not believe that being professional means that you have to have the latest equipment. There might be many reasons why one cannot have the best equipment. But what does count is using what facilities you do have to the full. If those facilities still cannot provide what you need then you have to reassess what you are wanting to achieve. That IMHO is what being professional is all about.

[Pierre Argh]

Boomerangben

But what does count is using what facilities you do have to the full. If those facilities still cannot provide what you need then you have to reassess what you are wanting to achieve. That IMHO is what being professional is all about.

I agree with you completely!!!! and i repeat its about using the best tools available to you.

[DFC]

Ergo if you are arriving from abroad in accordance with the rules you will not require Series D. If however you are flying internally to an airport not open to International Traffic you will.

Thus the requirement to update met and notams at each stop whenever one can.

-------

I don't think that you have to use the AIS service of the country one is departing within. One simply must ensure that the briefing is complete. Operators don't pay Jeppesen jetplan and similar companies for weather and notam briefing services expecting there to be important bits left out.

However, taking the UK situation - Mike Cross stated that the number of NOTAMs are now so large that there is a problem with the guys at London info tracking what is going on.

Are we suffering from simply too many notams?

It seems to me that in the last 5 years the number of nav warnings has dramatically increased. Is the NATS desire to NOTAM everything everywhere actually decreasing safety?

Are there situations where NOTAMS are being issued but either an AIP amendment or AIC would be more appropriate.........eg that guy on the isle of wight has been flying those kites for 10 years now. Go on and give him an AIP entry!

Common NOTAMs which can be complicated (and remember NOTAMs can never have a diagram) should be issued as an AIC. A good example being the Temporary Class A airspace that springs up round Lyneham and Farnborough. There are only a couple of airspace scenarios involved which could be published with nice maps in an AIC. All that would be required then is a short NOTAM stating Farnborough tempory Class A scenario 1 active 1200.

------

IO540,

Having to go to the airfield to get weather or notams (but especially weather) is next to useless, except for occassional pilots who pop up on nice days only

I remember when we obtained a personal briefing from the forecaster and the AIS briefer before each flight. Not only that, I remember the notice required to be given depending on how long the flight sector was.

The fax briefing, telephone briefing and the internet are very recent changes for some of us who have flown quite a few miles! :)

Regards,

DFC

[IO540]

MikeC

Thanks for the clarification. I don't suppose this matters because non-international airfields are not obliged to speak English anyway, and since it makes sense to telephone any small airfield before flying there, this phone call would have to be made by a French speaker anyway and would (would it?) reveal the sort of airfield-specific info which you say would be missing from the international feed.

Technologically, what is the mechanism used to restrict specific notam items to Schengen members? I didn't know the data includes addressing information!

There are definitely far too many notams but NATS has a very long way to go to match Italy (which notamed every failed lamp-post on a recent flight I did), or the amazing notamed arguments between Greece and Turkey.

Do NATS have to do anything with the notams? Surely they just accept the data feed, strip off the bits which go only to paying customers, and provide a www gateway into it. Nobody at NATS should actually need to ever look at any of the stuff. Or are they referring to UK-generated FIR notams which need plotting, for daily ATC purposes?

[Mike Cross]

NATS do not in the main initiate NOTAM. They are intitiated by a variety of people. NOTAM to do with facilities such as aerodromes or navaids will be initiated by the owners of those facilities. Many of the Nav Warnings and the Airspace Restrictions will be initiated by CAA/DAP, however they will frequently be doing it at the behest of those carrying out the activity, e.g. Mil, Reds, Airshow Organisers etc.

The proliferation of NOTAM is a result of the huge growth in air travel. Seemingly innocuous info is of vital importance to some. I understand that a particular Stand was once u/s at a foreign airport but the NOTAM did not appear in the brief. Unfortunately it was the only stand that could support a particular aircraft type so the a/c had to be parked on a remote apron and the passengers bussed to and from the terminal. Because the a/c was not on the main apron it could not be refuelled other than by bowser and the bowser was of small capacity, resulting in many trips and a prolonged delay, missed slots and cancelled flights later in the day and thousands of pounds of costs to the airline.

WRT foreign NOTAM, the system works like this:-
The AIS of each State will promulgate (i.e. distribute) the NOTAM for their State. Various agencies (which will include all other ICAO Notam Offices (NOF's)) will subscribe to the distribution list and receive those NOTAM series that they have subscribed to. Each NOTAM is sent in the form of a separate message on the Aeronautical Fixed Telecommunication Network. The recieving NOF will process the incoming message stream to build its own database from which briefings will be provided to users of its service.

My understanding is that the French declined to provide Series D outside Schengen so UK AIS does not receive them. A consequence of this will be that a commercial briefing service which obtains its data solely from UK AIS will also not receive French Series D. If you want to verify what series from which countries you receive you would need to ask your information provider. From the UK AIS website Terms and Conditions (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/terms.htm) which you accept on the login page:-THE PRE-FLIGHT BRIEFING INFORMATION ON THE WEBSITE IS INTENDED TO SERVE FLIGHTS THAT ORIGINATE WITHIN UK AIRSPACE. UNDER ICAO CONVENTION WE ARE REQUIRED TO REMIND USERS THAT THE DATA PRESENTED DOES NOT SUPPORT FLIGHTS ORIGINATING OUTSIDE UK AIRSPACE.


Mike

[MadamBreakneck]

Sorry Chaps (and Chapesses), its probably a no win situation. As an aircraft commander, you are bound by the provisions of ANO Article 43, to "reasonably satisfy himself before the aircraft takes off.....that the flight can safely be made, taking into account the latest information available.....".

So if it's the courts you're are bothered about (as opposed to flying into a tethered baloon or something), then the key word is "reasonably" - if prosecuted, you'd get your lawyer to demonstrate to the court that pop-up NOTAMS are rare and that it was reasonable for you to work on the basis of your check only a few hours beforehand. An experienced lawyer would put it better than that, but that's the idea.

The only <politically incorrect expression deleted> in the woodpile would be if there has been previous higher court decision which says a reasonable time is 'X' minutes. Anybody know of such a prosecution?

MadamB
'This is not legal advice'
:\

[IO540]

MikeC

THE DATA PRESENTED DOES NOT SUPPORT FLIGHTS ORIGINATING OUTSIDE UK AIRSPACE.

I wonder why NATS puts in such a useless and meaningless disclaimer. I suppose we live in an age of yellow jackets, lawyers and other anally retarded people. Why can't they write something useful, e.g.

THE DATA PRESENTED SHOULD BE OK FOR FLIGHTS OUTSIDE UK AIRSPACE. HOWEVER, DATA FOR AIRFIELDS UNAVAILABLE TO INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS MAY BE INCOMPLETE.

It's also obvious that even for NON-international departure/destination airfields, both lying outside the UK, the EN-ROUTE brief has got to be OK, because one could fly the same route following a UK departure.

However, given the nature of airfield notams ("runway XX closed today", etc), it seems to me that a phone call to the place would be wholly sufficient. Stuff like parachuting ought to be covered by the narrow route briefing, unless taking place wholly within the ATZ. Would you say otherwise?

It would appear to be a marketing advantage for a commercial flight briefing service to get it's feed from within Schengen. Then one could use the same website for notams no matter where one is flying.

Presumably the French withhold the D data from American subscribers too, which is likely to affect the Jeppesen flight planning software.

MadamBreakneck

It's little use talking about lawyers once outside the UK. Over there, they might lock you up in a cage with a bucket in the corner, and a lawyer isn't going to be anyone's priority :O

[Mike Cross]

I wonder why NATS puts in such a useless and meaningless disclaimer. Because ICAO Standards and Recommended Practices (SARPS) are predicated on the basis that the State within whose airspace the flight originates is responsible for providing the briefing service. The States providing the data are aware of this and therefore know that they need only distribute information relevant to international flights. Once you deviate from the Standard you are asking for trouble.
We've already seen that France does not distribute series D internationally and who knows what similar oddities the other 80 odd ICAO contracting States might have? No commercial organisation is going to take on potential liabilities for things that are not its reponsibility and which are outside its control.

Also, from a purely commercial viewpoint if Wizzoland's AIS has a fantastic free briefing service while Notsowizzoland charges for the service, it stands to reason that everyone will start using Wizzoland's service, putting more costs on them to handle the additional traffic.

For example you can brief from Austria's AIS (https://www.homebriefing.com/aes/login.jsp) which will cost you Eur 36 per annum or you can brief from UK AIS which costs you nothing. If you got an identical service from both which would you use?

Mike