Solent FIS?

[GrassStrip]

Hi

I would just like some clarification here - when flying near (not in their ATZ) Southampton and/or Bournemouth can you call Solent for a FIS to cover both areas or do you need to call each directly?

Thanks...

[Flash0710]

From what i have seen Solent will look after you in the solent ie From the east call solent around selsey they will give you a sqwark and nurse you to the other side of soton water.

I guess depending on the Solent persons workload they will co-ordinate but from then on its bournemouth who will deal.

From the west tho i would not have a clue.

It's no real drama around there and some great scenery:ok:

Stay High

F.

[TCAS FAN]

Solent have no obligation to provide any service to aircraft outside their controlled airspace, whether it be outside the Control Zone or CTA. They are paid by the airport operator to provide service to aircraft arriving and departing Southampton. Due to having controlled airspace, they are obliged to provide a service to other aircraft crossing it.

As someone who is inside their controlled airspace, trying to get a word in on an overloaded frequency, with all and sundry outside, who thought that it might be a good idea to make a courtesy call, my advice is listen out on their frequency, if they are obviously busy and you are intending to stay outside, do just that and give them a wide berth, please don't call them. If you are transitting under their CTA, get their current QNH from their ATIS (113.350) and use it, not the regional QNH, to stay below the published base level, not at it.

When it comes to providing a service outside, Bournemouth are a LARS Unit, and are paid to provide such service by CAA. They primarily provide radar services outside controlled airspace, but can provide FIS to aircraft outside controlled airspace.

The primary provider of FIS is of course London on 124.75, but in theorey only. No way can they, with one frequency covering most of southern England, provide it to all comers.

[Three Blades]

Both Bournemouth and Solent Radar are very helpful at providing FIS in their vicinity. I regularly track low level along the coast just outside both of the Zones. One centre usually asks you to contact/free call the other as you pass somewhere between Lymington and Beaulieu.
Both can be busy but provided that your RT is up to spec then I have never heard either of them be anything but helpful. They may ask you to wait if they are busy and ask you to remain clear of controlled airspace.
There are often plenty of aircraft in that area, both GA and commercial, and I find that both centres provide an excellent FIS that is nearly as good as a RIS.

[Spitoon]

Ah, I see TCAS favours the NATS indoctrinated view of life. Whatever happened to the days when we had a National Air Traffic Service?

[MikeJeff]

Spitoon although I agree with your question, I don't think TCAS is quite saying that.

In essence his advice on Solent is good. However, I personally have no Mode C, so will ask for a FIS when I pass between the to CTRs just so they can be certain I'm not in their airspace. I know the theory is that ATC will assume you are outside, but Traffic Info is often given regarding "height unknown" aircraft anyway. What always amuses me about Solent is that on the occasions I haven't been allowed through their zone (3 out of 20) they have given me such a thorough FIS that I'm sure it would've been easier to just let me throught their zone anyway!

[Evil J]

If your near my airpsace I would far rather you call, EPSECIALLY if you have no made C (thanks MJ)- it takes virtually no time at all to take brief details (off someone who knows how to use the radio) and put them under a FIS; as a controller you just have to be willing to work that little bit harder.

It would be nice if we did have a NATIONAL Air traffic Service....but thats another debate!!

[GrassStrip]

Thanks for the replies - I really wanted to know where I got a LARS from when flying from East of Southampton to Compton Abbas for example - it is my understanding that I call Bournemouth LARS and this will cover me for Southampton as well?

On a further note the Yeovilton AIAA - when calling the LARS would FIS suffice or do they want you to take RIS?

[Three Blades]

Yeovilton wil give you FIS.
They are not generally open at the weekend.
From east of Southampton, I suggest you speak to Solent who would pass you probably to Boscombe during a weekday and Bournemouth at a weekend. Cross over point will probably be about Romsey

[TCAS FAN]

GrassStrip

Depending on where in the east you are inbound from, if you are north of line SAM VOR-MID VOR, you may get something from Farnborough, if you are south of it, probably not.

If you want to cross the Solent CTA, remember you, and you alone, are responsible for contacting Solent in sufficient time to pass your details and obtain a crossing clearance. As Solent are increasingly busy with IFR traffic, always have a contingency plan in place to route around, either north or south.

From my own experience, Solent Controllers will not unreasonably refuse a crossing, ie they will only do so if there is too much traffic conflicting with you, which would then require you to hold clear for an inordinate amount of time.

Also from experience, if you can maintain VMC at 2500 FT or above, it appears to increases their ability to offer a crossing. Apparently at this height you don't conflict with their circuit and joiners/leavers.

After leaving Solent to the west, you can always try Bournemouth for a LARS or FIS.

WR

Don\'t think that Evil J is a Solent Controller, he\'s apparently somewhere where he\'s not vectoring six or more IFR aircraft, in a very small CTA, trying to keep them apart and inside controlled airspace (the latter is something I worry about with 80+ people sat behind me). The last thing a Solent controller wants is the frequency blocked by traffic that doesn\'t need to call, distracting him/her from their primary task, ie providing a safe service to aircraft within controlled airspace.

Years ago when they were much quieter it was no problem for them to offer freebies to aircraft outside controlled airspace, looks as if the free lunch era is coming to an end!

[Three Blades]

TCAS FAN,
Seeing as you have 80+ people behind you and I only have 1 or 2 beside, I completly understand your comments.
My point is that every time I call Solent they are always most friendly and helpful to me as well as a handfull of others flying GA in the uncontrolled area around the Solent and IoW at the same time.
Perhaps we should not call them due to workload and I would understand it if they told me that they had no interest to give me a FIS. However this does not seem to be their attitude.
Have I just been lucky or are there moves afoot to stop/reduce the FIS to GA in that area ?

[TCAS FAN]

Three Blades

I'm not aware of a formal plan as yet to abandon provision of FIS outside controlled airspace, but it could happen if,god forbid, there is a serious incident inside controlled airspace, and a contributory factor was determined as distraction to the controller by traffic outside.

However, NATS, who provide ATC at Solent/Southampton, have a very effective safety management system to avoid potential errors by controllers. It is possible that if traffic increases as it has over the past 18 months (Flybe already announced twelve new routes soon from SOU), this will kick in at some time and the controllers will be instructed not to provide services to traffic outside controlled airspace.

Be thankful for what the guys n' girls at Solent have done for the GA community in the past. If I'm not working, I too will be faced with the same problem of having to go around the CTA, but understand and accept the inevitable. I suspect that you do also.

[Three Blades]

TCAS FAN, I understand and agree.
Thanks always due to all the ATC people I deal with. I have always found them all (Mil, ATC, Info and Radio) very helpful.
It just makes me cross when I hear people using bad RT using up an excessive amount of their time.

[TCAS FAN]

WR

If nothing appears in response to your request, I'll ask one of the controllers and let you know his/her views.

WR

You are in luck, just been talking to a Solent controller.

Firstly, their ability to see a squawk is somewhat limited as they do not have their own on-airport SSR. It\'s normally piped in from Pease Pottage, just south of Gatwick. However at the moment they are using a source from Heathrow.

The current situation is that they cannot see squawks below about 2000 FT to the east of Southampton, and around 2500-3000 FT to the west of the field.

Consequently, if you are flying Stoney Cross-Beaulieu or thereabouts, they are not currently going to see any squawk. When their usual SSR source is restored, which should be in September, they should be able to see squawks to about 1500FT. Even if they see your squawk, if you are on 7000 they cannot accept any altitude indication as true. They merely have to assume that you are there, and below the base of the CTA.

Whether or not they see a squawk is academic. They can see raw radar returns on traffic Stoney Cross-Beaulieu down to a few hundred feet. IFR traffic is kept above the CTA base, normally by at least 500 FT. Any VFR traffic in the CTA, which may be operating at the base altitude, is warned of unknown traffic with the indication of "level unknown", irrespective of whether a squawk is observed.

The important thing is that you fly below the CTA base level on an actual, rather than fictious QNH (ie Regional Pressure Setting). The latter could be 8 plus millibars lower than the actual QNH, which if you were flying at an indicated 1900 FT, under a 2000 FT base, on RPS, could end up puting you inside the CTA at about 2100 FT. Hence the advice to get the Southampton QNH from their ATIS, or even from their recorded weather on Tel 02380 627103.

If you need any advice from Solent, they are very approachable and would be able to answer any further queries that you may have. The SATCO\'s name is Martin Carroll, known around the airport as "Mungo", he\'ll always be pleased to help. His secretary\'s number is 02380 627189.

[Warped Factor]

Not a Solent controller but I ocasionally work another bit of Class D ENE of Solent that is fairly busy.

Essentially, the current rules allow us to assume that if traffic not talking to us is in a position that indicates it should be outside CAS e.g. a primary only return under a 1,500ft Control Area stub, then we are allowed to assume it is below and outside CAS unless we've received any information that may indicate to the contrary.

The level of traffic that operates around and under the Class D that I play in is such that if it all chose to call us to let us know its intentions there wouldn't be enough time on the r/t to deal with the IFR traffic.

If you've got Mode C it's always useful to see a level that corresponds with the altitude one should be at or below but ultimately it's not required. Essentially, to all intents and purposes, you are ignored!

It's interesting though that if we were in the States all the large airfields in the SE would likely have Mode C veils around them...

WF.