2 new DEC on EK 777

[etops777]

Just noticed that 2 DEC's had just joined EK......on the Boeing!:(

[Fugazi]

Can anyone else confirm if this is fact?
There again even if it is the EK pilot community will, as ever, do absolutely nothing about it. Sorry to be cynical, but after 8 years you learn to know the score.
Nice of the management to keep us updated though!!:ok:

[Zomp]

EK said 4 years ago that they will hire DEC's and it was all over the internet.
Don't tell me you didn't do a little market research before you joined.
By the way it was also on pprune that time to command will increase to 5-7 or even longer unless EK buys 300 aircraft.

It sounds like buying cheap land next to an airport and then complaining about the noise.

[LHR Rain]

Zomp don't try to sugar coat the situation. Fugazi is here 8 yrs and the new DECs will probably be paid more than him and have less experience than the FOs currently flying the 777. Just because it was over pprune 4 yrs ago that EK would stoop to that level does not make it right or even true but negates the fact about Fugazi and many many others who came to EK before the airline started going downhill and fast. When I interviewed EK said nothing about hiring DECs and told us it would be 3 yrs to command. I guess you and the mangers will "blame" the hard working FOs for not seeing this coming or that we should have known this was coming but the fact remains that it is beyond wrong and you know it. Just because someone verbalizes it does not make it right. BOHICA! Keep Discovering!

[Zomp]

Rain,
how long are you here than?
We warned all the wannabes but you didn't listen.
For the last 3 years there are only negative posts on the net and everybody knew that EK is going down the drain very fast.

Don't tell me you belive what an EK recruiter told you, because then you should hand in your medical right now.

[Trashed Aviator]

Time to look for another job, if youve got experience go look for a better deal it is worthless in EK as an F/O.....No future !:{

[Cerberus]

Sad fact is they are gonna take whoever they can get to fly the aircraft at the moment. Scheduling admit that they are big time short of crews and once the rostering system has crunched the numbers cover open flights using the reserve guys. Some days reserve cover is zip.

Added to that they then fill the rosters of the guys that have exceeded their block hours by manually inserting ground duties. That will explain why our rosters are getting screwed about so much. When the manual insertions are done they look for a nice block of days off and stick it in the middle to even it out in a nice eye pleasing fashion. The 'manual inserters' do not have any idea of our bid preferences and probably wouldn't care anyway.

Cerberus:sad:

[Vorsicht]

I have heard a couple of times over the last week that we have anywhere between 1 and 3 jets parked due to lack of crews. Anyone heard the same?

[sanddancer]

All of which makes me rather glad I've resigned!

[Trashed Aviator]

Me too ,and its gonna snowball especially on F/O side .
I think Etihad and QR are wising up to experienced people............

[roacstar]

Hey Trashed.

Don't think Ey or Qr the go mate.

Reasons......

1. Qr will sack you if you don't wear your hat.

2. Ey CCQ 330/340 AED 74,000. CCQ 330/380.......wait for it...AED 294,000

3. Upgrade AED 220,000...

Hmmmm !!!!! Me zinc zey have you by mine shvuntz over there.
Don't know???? Pay out EK bond and enter into another sandpit?

Stay tuned bud. Things will happen soon.:D

Have a good break:ok:

[BYMONEK]

Have I just read that right? You mean to tell me that you get bonded if they give you a Command? That cannot be true surely......is it?

[what_goes_up]

Yup, that is. They'll bond you for everything there. And BTW same DEC problem there with the difference that they offered SWR FO's with the rating positions as Captain, overtaking every FO serving there already.

[Formally Known As]

Hi guys, sorry to hear of your being s*** on and from a great height it seems. I was in the same position years ago with another company.

The only thing you can do is to leave as quickly as possible and take as many as possible with you. Vote with your feet, otherwise you will continue to be treated like rubbish. Unfortunaly pilots being pilots, will never stick together.

I know it is easier said than done in most cases as you probably have family there and loans to pay back etc., back home. However believe me when I say this, to keep your dignity intact, go. That is the only language these people will ever understand.

Things are beginning to move in the job market now, so make a command decision and get the hell out.

[LHR Rain]

Well said by everybody on this board! Now if we can only work together to achieve our goals. Either no more DECs or for the qualified FOs to move on to better companies. If we achive both EK might be a modearately decent place to work but that is a long way off. Lets stick together as a group and that includes everybody.

[Zomp]

Or one more DEC who takes LHR Rains command so that we all can feel save when we travel on EK

[LHR Rain]

Zomp,

What the he11 do you know about me! Your views are most disturbing to this airline. Are you defending the DEC decision? If so that is a pretty good reason why this airline is going downhill. So you want more DECs to come so one FO can't get an upgrade? If that is the logic you don't belong at any airline. And by the way what 3rd world airliine did you come from? Lets stick together and win!

[mensaboy]

Zomp,

"So we can all feel save"????? What the heck does that mean?
Yes, i realize what you intended, but in your venomous and ridiculous attack on LHR, you should try to appear at least moderately intelligent.

I have read a few of your posts, and your POV is difficult for me to understand. You are either one of the minority azz-kissing pilots, a management doughboy or someone who simply can't comprehend the issues. Hopefully you are the latter, since at least that would offer you opportunity to become enlightened in the future.

I am astounded that you would suggest it unsafe for people to fly with LHR based on his viewpoints expressed on this forum. It is one of the most absurd things i have ever read here and you should reconsider posting such comments in the future.

Yes, I have suggested you are one of 3 types of individuals, none of which I find decent but I have no idea of your skills, or lack thereof, in relation to your profession. It's possible you are a good pilot with sound judgement and above average skills. Although if i am correct in my assessment of you, then based on my experience with individuals like yourself, that is highly unlikely. Then again, perhaps you made that post in a moment of insanity and we should give you the benefit of the doubt.

You have crossed the line and need a little beeyatch slapping. (that's intended in humour)

[Zomp]

EK always hired DEC, 15 years ago the hired them, even the AB chiefpilot is a DEC, they hired DEC 2000 on the 777 (Rademann and another guy).
2001 EK announced again that they will hire DEC.
So it was no secret and EK made it quiet clear.

[145qrh]

You will recognise Zompey in the crewroom--- underpants on his head, pencils up his nose ..... wibble...:p :p

[Scooter Rassmussin]

But do you really think it is fair when there is F/os meeting the same criteria being overlooked.:E

[LHR Rain]

NO!

I also believe that Zomp is trying to justify the DECs in the wrong way. Just because EK did that in the past is no reason to do that same desision today. EK is a grown up airline now with plenty of qualified pilots today in the right and left seats. A lot of captains at EK hired even 8 yrs ago could not get hired today based on their qualifications. That goes to show you that EK has matured, not a slam on the current captains. Get rid of the DEC program at EK and the pilot applications will grow with qualified FOs wanting to come to a world class airline.

[Global Nomad]

Rain.

How many pilots is "a lot"? I'm sure you've used proven data to make this claim. Oh I forgot, it's a rumour forum....

It is impossible to draw a comaprison between experience of pilots from 16, 8 or 4 years ago and those hired today unless you have the facts. Even if you had the data, such a comparison would be irrelevant

Is the DEC policy fair?
No.

Would a change to the promotion criteria change pilots outlook? Probably.

Will the policy change?
Not as long as there is a more economic (short term) and expeditious method.

Zomp

Yes you are right, the DEC policy has been around as long as Emirates has. It just hasn't been used to this extent before.

Emirates will continue to hire DEC's as long as there are no qualified (EK definition) F/O's on the fleet.

Why? Because that's their policy.

[Can't think of a name]

LHR Rain - I don't disagree with your views, or those of others here, and I sincerely hope that you, and all the other qualified FO's, get your upgrades as quickly as possible.

HOWEVER, what's happened so far is nothing compared to what's about to happen in the coming 2 years.

FACT: DEC's are going to be employed onto the 777 Fleet as a joint measure of avoiding transition upgrades, while meeting Fleet expansion (in significant numbers!)

FACT: Our management has recently reviewed the policy on transition upgrades, and have decided that DEC's are the better choice for the company, for one reason: $$$$ (their conclusion, not mine!)

FACT: DEC's will be hired onto the 380. (This will be done as an additional carrot to those DEC candidates that aren't convinced by the "movie star" salary)

FACT: DEFO's will also go onto the 380, but I don't think any sane peson is surprised by that fact: its a necessity.

CONCLUSION: Things are not going to get better. Make your decisions based on your own personal and professional requirements. All airlines needing pilots are going to feel the pinch soon, if not already. Don't be so naive to believe that red carpets will get rolled out to anybody with a rating; they will control staff movement simply by increased bonds and penalties for leaving. And so far EK has not done that!

And always remember, green grass can grow atop very deep sh&^t, so don't be too quick to jump the fence!

Also, for what its worth, the experience we have in the right seat of EK is hugely appreciated and respected by the Captains. Weather the storm if you can, get your upgrades, and THEN re-assess.

CTOAN

[LHR Rain]

In reply to all the kind words addressed to me I resond:

Global Nomad:

A don't know specifically what a lot of pilots are. I do know at least 4 captains that I have flown with including one in the CRM department that by their own admission said they could not get hired today with the qualifications that they had at the time of joining. That is not to say everyone hired 8 yrs ago was not qualified or could not get hired today. That does say there were and are some (a lot) of captains that meet the criteria I metioned above.
You know as well as I do that most if not all of the FOs today at EK are qualified to fly an international, wide-body aircraft. It is just the company that puts the limits on us so they can "justify" their decision to screw us.

CTOAN

I would like nothing better to get an upgrade and leave. Unfortunately that prospect is a long ways away as you so pointidliy made me aware of. I hope your analyalist is wrong but I fear that it is right on the money. Thanks for the appreciation of the right seat guys. God help us all!

[Ramboflyer 1]

Well there is a handful of pilots F/os exceeding the DEC requirement and denyed upgrade .
Its all about money, join the wrong type and your career is screwed Emirates is not 1 airline dont join the wrong 1.:sad:

[dicksynormous]

Someone earlier mentioned there is alot of "manual insertion"

There certainly is , and they seem to be inserting the manual deeper, after they have changed it that is.
;)

The majority (imho) of pilots wanted ek in the hope of a fast command .( If they are honest with themselves that is). It seems to have gone pear shaped. It wont change. there is a endless supply of ICAO licenced (read third world cheaper) pilots filling the slots now. if its sh1t leave. Dont be surprised if your ek rating is not that exportable. Most airlines that operate such kit have strict seniority so youll be in the right seat again anyway,and your dubai validation of anything other than a jar atpl will mean your stuck in a viscious circle, and you may not even get hired. Many companies in europe are now hiring straight out of school again to avoid this constant pressure for command. If you want to be a dec outside of ek youll need command time on type for a dec in europe. catch 22

Of course those of you with previous command can return to say JMC etc but the f/os you left behind will probably be skippers and in some cases maybe even yours.

Add to that the humiliation of kowtowing to your hosts, no civil rights and a double shafting from your expat colleagues who feather their own nests by trying to please the local shiek. Boy I dont envy you. Do like the colour scheme tho.

[BYMONEK]

Dicksy

Glad you like the colours. Along with the red and black is green........the colour of envy! There are a whole lot more guys trying to get in than there are trying to get out, believe me.

There may not be the civil rights here in the Gulf as the one's you enjoy in Europe but my quality of life and standard of living is better. I was the wrong colour, age bracket, religion and sexual persuasion to enjoy the so called civil rights that were on offer to me in Europe anyway!

Just heard on sky news that those young hooded hooligans will enjoy £12 month 'pocket money' if they behave themselves every day. Which means either;
A) YOU'RE about to be shafted on the tax front.
or
B) YOUR windows will need to be boarded up.

Boy, I don't envy you.;)

[doubleu-anker]

BYMONEK

When you state your are the wrong "sexual persuasion" can you be a bit more specific. Are you a queer or what? I get your drift on the rest.

[BYMONEK]

er...yes. My Wife often thinks I can be a bit queer but in the strange / odd / eccentric way, not in the " ooh Jeremy, I couldn't possibly do it again.........my knees are killing me dear!" :ooh:

Hope that ' straightens' things out for you!

[dicksynormous]

Bymonek.

Sorry u didnt realise you were a mid thirties straight,married , two kids, anglosaxon c of e englishman . I do sympathise. You are actively discriminated against these days, not least by the diverse bbc.
Please dont play the sob story. Everyone (except the lucky cadets etc) has their own stories of financial hardship, favouritism ,jobs for the(raf) boys etc syndrome that is prevelant the uk at least.

As for the Hoodies, i take offence. Both my sons are card carrying hooligans , they were the wrong age , colour, sexual persuasion to be anything else.We all have to make a living.

Along with the green for envy is the fact that i make enough in extraordinary payments alone (after tax) than most of your f/os make in a month. This enables me to come and enjoy your agreeable lifesyle regularly without offering my botty to a local sheik or his expat henchman. See you at the sailing club some time.:ok:

[Scooter Rassmussin]

We really need to hear that when our careers are ****** because we were placed on the wrong type .
You are way out of line dicksynormous you have no idea of how bad it is in the right seat so stay out of it.
I think the solution is for all ex captain f/os to leave get some more command time and come back as DECs on 777, thats how they want to play it.....
:mad:

[harry the cod]

Dicksynormous

How appropriate. You are, without doubt, the biggest Dick here!

:E

Harry

[dicksynormous]

Thank you i do try. I usually get that response when your argument of tax free, big equipment fun is blown out of the water. Not rubbing it in, i dont need to, i'm not stuck on the right seat in the pit eating humble camel pie baked by an expat nest featherering [email protected] six to eight inches of halal meat inserted.(manually i'm told)
nearly took the bait tho as an f/o
Just pointing out the facts harry ol bean. Also an f/o 330 etc rating in dubai is good for just that. An f/o job elsewhere as an expat where woolly icao validations abound. You need the command time so its catch 22. Name one european 330/340/777.operator that would take an ek driver and put them on the left seat of a widebody ahead of the rest of their qualified time served people.
Its a good rating you have ,but good for the xpat world.

Harry the cod is a great name as you took the emirates bait.

Scooter, i do know and actually agree with you. Its an option i and many others now have open to us should we decide to go that route .
Must go now and book another staff ticket to dubai as i have a week off and 3grand of tax paid day off payments to blow.
:ok:

Ps never did say i didnt like dubai:E

[BYMONEK]

Well, Dicksy, if he wasn't going to say it then someone was. You're just soooo easy to wind up. The only thing that confuses me about you is why you're on this forum in the first place as you have such an obvious aversion to working life in the Gulf.

Go on, have the last word then get lost.Your posts are repetitive, boring and full of tosh! You really are an annoying little git at the best of times.

Being a smart arse though, I guess you knew that already!

Now, back to the topic.................

[harry the cod]

Aaarh, do we have to? :{

[White Knight]

Regarding "little dick", the name Richard Cranium kinda springs to mind...... Like his knobby little chum Millerscourt (where are you old man?) I also wonder why they spend most of their surfing time hanging around the "Middle East" forum:confused: :confused:

Dicky baby, I don't do Halal. Now, why don't you do like "Bricktop" says, and ***k off.......

[dicksynormous]

Ah the "why you on the forum" chestnut. Whats next, the" did you fail selection" alternative.
If you dont want outsiders to read your crap keep it on your company forum. I have been an expat for 17 years and am therefore interested in expat forums,and no i didnt to the other one. Pissed it actually but had a flash of common sense.

Impressed with your solidarity against me though. Shame you dont have the balls to apply it to ek.

Your reactions are predictable and as unchangable as your screwed up status as chippy f/os in the gulf.

I bet its not the last word though.

You are fast becoming as intolerant of others views as your management and hosts.

The whinging from ek is endless. As is the same old counter arguments therefore my repetitive posts are only in keeping with tradition on the topic.

Oh and by the way if alluding to a nickname as being inDICKative of my endowment or personna is as good an insult as you can muster then i'll gladly f£

Jellied date juice is good for soothing the back pasage ..allegedly

[Quod Boy]

Back to the thread
Quote:-

" DECs will only be introduced,if there are insufficient numbers of suitably qualified and experienced existing FOs within EK to meet existing expansion and it is intended as a temporary measure to see us through this current period of expansion"

Mr C Knowles,Feb 2003.

Probably cost neutral also,his lips moved too.

Off to the pub QB

:cool:

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Latest DEC's are 310 only, confirmed. Met one of 'em in last few days

SyB :zzz:

[330 Man]

Boy did this topic veer to the left in a hurry "Ooh Jeremy I couldnt possibly..." Great one BYMONEK. My minds eye is tainted forever!

But back to the topic. I returned this morning and decided to find out once and for all, so I did the most precise investigation I could think of, I looked at the mail boxes in CBC.

The results are: (drum roll please) THERE ARE NO MAIL BOXES FOR BOEING DIRECT ENTRY CAPTAINS IN CBC FOR THE LAST FEW MONTHS.

The only DEC's are for the 310. Now I am sure that there are f/o's here who would gladly take an upgrade on the 310 but that is for another thread in which I am sure we will learn the sexual orientation of a few others!

As this is a rumor network I can state that IT IS ONLY A RUMOR!

Love to all,

330 Man

[harry the cod]

330 MAN

If you tell us twice, does that make the news TWICE as good?

Regards

Harry:p

[330 Man]

Thanks Harry. I guess I was thinking about BYMONEK and carpet burns and ... and hit enter one too many times!

330 Man

[Gypsy]

Oh gawd - here we go again.

First, I very much doubt that EK PROMISED anyone a command in 3 yrs, 5 yrs or 7. At interview airlines might cautiously discuss the expected time to command based on current thinking but I've never known any company that wouldn't lay emphasis on the fact that this was not promised.......... but so often guys just don't listen...............

Its also true that every airline I've worked for has had talent for promotion but also some f/o's that thought they should be captains but frankly didn't deserve it based on either ability or attitude or both.

It is important that pilots stick together - that is pilots - not captains and not purely f/o's. Most of you f/o's that are complaining will eventually make it into the LHS maybe with EK, maybe elsewhere.

So once you've made it, do you propose to stay with that company for the next 10, 20 or 30 years or whatever you have until retirement? Most of you will not because we enjoy a profession which allows us mobility and variety.

Once you've been LHS on your EK Boeing or Airbus for a few years and you are ready to move on, I bet you won't be so keen to see other airlines protecting the rights of their f/o's.

[millerscourt]

W**K*r Yes here I am WK. Now you admit to being a "Peeping Tom" as well as your other attributes. In view of your immaturity I think that when ( and if ) EK ever decide you are suitable for Command that you initially prove yourself on the A310 Freighter for say 5/10 years as I don't think you should be let loose with Passengers and Cabin Crew.


Gypsy You are of course correct in what you say but I disagree about Pilot Mobility. I think that is getting less and less and depends wholly on what Aircraft you are not only Rated on but actually Current on in most cases. That lack of Mobility is why huge numbers of Pilots are not leaving EK or SQ or any of the rest ,just a trickle even if slightly more than before.

The problem Airlines have is getting Pilots to join in the first place. Unless it is financially better than what you have at home why drag your family halfway around the world for an uncertain future where you have no Employment rights whatsoever and where all airlines that employ ex-pats can and do change T & C's whenever they feel like it!

[330 Man]

Oh Gawd here we go again, another non Emirates pilot is going to tell us how to think, act and feel.

Gypsy,

If your post was not so insulting it would be funny. Who are you to give advice to EK first officers when you are not a EK pilot? You have no idea the frustration we are feeling at the Direct Entry Program.

Please from a personal standpoint, let me debunk your totally incorrect advice.

Emirates is not so stupid as to make a promise, you are correct. BUT, there are some First Officers here who were told that they would upgrade in 18 months. Period! It is not a promise, but it is,on it's face value a rather firm statement.

Yes it is true that some First Officers think they should be upgraded when in fact they are not ready. But there are many First Officers here with well over 10000 hours in transport jets with over 5000 PIC on jets. Some have well over 15000 hours, with both good ability and attitudes. To hire Direct Entry Captains over these First Officers is a crime!

Sticking together here is not revelant. It is not like we could use some sort of job action. And yes most of us will eventually upgrade. The point is that most of us have already had upgrades at other airlines. As I said, to hire DEC'S over those former captains is a crime.

I will be here until I retire!

I will always be keen on protecting the rights of all pilots including First Officers. I think the DEC' program here is wrong, has been totally unsuccessful and has done much more harm than good. It was ill conceived and has been the one thing that has eroded the goodwill among the First Officers here towards the company.

I hold no grudge against the DEC'S that came here. This is a problem with management. We were told that the DEC program would not be at the expense of one upgrade, and that the program would only be used to cover the extra 340,s. That was a lie, and every qualified First officer here has paid a price for that lie.

We are well justified to complain, and if you were a First Officer here I have no doubt that your voice would be just as loud!

Regards,

330 Man

[Gypsy]

330man

Quote 'You have no idea the frustration we are feeling at the Direct Entry Program'.

So this is unique to EK is it - never happened to anyone else has it - not qualified to have a view point if you don't work for EK?

I'm lucky enough to be in the LHS on a shiny electric jet and have been for many years including some spent as an expat. I've been tempted towards jobs that involved voluntarily stepping into the RHS (including EK) but always backed away from it because .............. well, what you're experiencing now isn't new and I always decided to stay in the LHS for job satisfaction and salary reasons and based on what I have observed, I also thought the risks of industry changes/company fortunes interrupting expected moves back to the LHS were too high (especially in the expat world).

I wish all EK F/O's well but you elected to join as an F/O which might have been a mistake - other guys in the industry are also well qualified and professional and deserve to be able to move their careers along as well.

I have enjoyed my time as a commercial pilot and there are so many great things about it but one of the sillier points is the fact that a very experienced captain might be unable to change jobs because it would mean and massive demotion and salary cut.

My point is that you will all be that very experienced pilot one day and if you already are and you chose to go RHS ........ well that might have been a big whoopsie

[jackbauer]

Have to agree with gypsy here, any Capt with 10 or 15,000 hrs who goes to a company as F/O on a verbal agreement for upgrade is CRAZY. No sympathy for these people, you took a chance and got shafted. Not the first time and definitely not the last. Vote with your feet.

[Saltaire]

The focus on hours is superfluous. If you are hired at EK, you are hired as a F/O with the function of seniority to move into the left seat. With good sim results and no snags, all F/O's should be upgraded accordingly in turn. Transition upgrades should return and the DEC program should be a last resort to fill high demand expansion. The difference between 15k hrs and 8k hrs means very little as for being ready and capable for command. It's a number of other factors that one needs to competently do the job well. These days a sense of humor would be high on the list, or the ability to sleep on demand .

On the whole I see the DEC program as being a cancer to morale, but to no fault of the individual. I hope the current F/O's are not further by-passed, specifically on the airbus, and the company gives credit to it's active F/O's.

Can't we just all get along........ :8 :{

[BYMONEK]

Gypsy & Jackbauer,

Both of you raise some valid points and even I have to agree that there is a large risk leaving Left seat to return as F/O with a different Company. Many here have taken that risk and for some it's been worthwhile,yet for others it's caused frustration and bitterness. To give up a command, especially with a good Airline, needs some serious thought and planning. Difficult to do at the best of times, even more difficult to do when rules and requirments can change overnight. The simple answer to vote with one's feet is again easier for some. Even after a few months, people are settled with children at schools, bought/renting villas ( 6 month cheques in advance), car loans etc etc. To simply ship up and move out is very difficult.

Although I myself have been adversely effected, I was not that naive to realise that policies never change here in the Gulf. That was the risk I took when I came here so I either accept it or leave. I choose to stay. I'm not,as some have said on here, prostituting myself to the Company. Far from it.I, along with my Family, enjoy a safe and high standard of living here. We have a lovely villa with no hassle attached, excellent medical care and a stable roster that has had only one change in 2 years. My quality of life has improved markedly and along with varied and ever expanding routes and new well maintained Aircraft, It is still a better place to be than the one we left behind. Yes, the salary could be higher but i'm 'richer' in other parts of my life. There are anyway, many opportunities here in Dubai to amass some serious wealth outside of Emirates but that's another story!

I also agree with many others on this forum that we should not be in this situation of recruiting DEC's. With some minor changes in hours requirment and transition upgrades, we have an abundance of highly qualified and experienced F/O's capable of Commands. It highlights what a woeful state our training department is in. Since being here for the last two years, i'm very aware of the 'knowledge is power' ideology that seems to pervade through the Company. Rather than teaching and training pilots, it can appear at times that there are some,and I emphasise the word some, who would rather check than train and almost delight at trying to catch people out. What kind of training culture is that? I also agree with Saltaire that if you ain't hacked it by 8000 hours, another 7000 will not make you any better! I'm also acutely aware of the status of F/O's in this Company compared to that of Captains. Unlike Many Airlines, particularly those in the West, that treat First Officers as Adults and empower them as such, here it is more the 'man and dog' philosophy.

Although he has his critics,'AS' has taken on a difficult job and has implemented some good decisions so far.( IMHO). If he is to retain and build support from the pilots then these issues, and issues such as J'burg need to be addressed now before the will and support of the pilots is lost for good.

BYMONEK

p.s Isn't it about time we were all given laptops to 'read' our manuals. It was NOT a condition of my employment that I had to have a computer so if you want us to be studious pilots, please provide us with the tools to do our job. Far more use than the oven gloves!

[harry the cod]

Oh, I don't know about that. Have just whipped outa the oven a tasty looking fishy pie......with those very gloves. What would I have done without them?

Top post bye the way. Very well balanced and argued!

Now, must leave, suppers calling...... harry......harry.......

Harry;)

[330 Man]

SS: Good post!

Gypsy: Of course you are entitled to have a view point. My point is that you have a different view from the outside. Those of us who are here and living through the moving goal post of upgrade have a different view point The DEC program is possible through the expense of the First Officer's at EK. It is reasonable to expect us to have a differing opinion on the matter. It effects our lives and careers, not yours! Would you have us believe that if you were in our situation you would just accept it and not get angry. In a nutshell you are telling us to get over it and move on, and that is just we are doing, We are after all professionals and we go to work and do our jobs to the very best of our ability. That does not mean we have to like it, and neither would you.

quote" other guys in the industry are also well qualified and professional and deserve to be able to move their careers along as well." What do you mean by that. Are you refering to the DEC's who came here at the expense of the qualified First Officers? If so I would love to hear logic behind that statement.

And finally, I did not leave a LHS job to come here. I have said before on pprune, DO NOT LEAVE A LEFT SEAT JOB TO COME TO EK! IT WILL BE THE BIGGEST MISTAKE OF YOUR CAREER.

I came here because I had the misfortune of flying for 20 years for an airline in the states that is in a downward spiral. After 3 mergers, 2 bankruptcies, 55%pay cut, loosing 80 % of my pension, parking 150 jets, and laying off 2000 pilots, I found myself back in the right seat after many years in the left. I am sure that you are not so silly as to think I did all of this by my own choice. It is called starting over and many First Officers at EK are in the same boat as me. Most of the F/O's here from my former company were captains, have over 15000 hours and are First Officers again. We were all told that we qualified for accelerated command and would upgrade in 18 months. I must be honest though and tell you that even if it 3 years I will still get to the left seat faster than my mates still at the old company.

Jackbauer: I can not stress the point enough. We did not leave our old company as captians to come here to be first officers. We were all trying to find the opportunity that would get us into the left seat as soon as possible. I do not want or need your sympathy, but your statement was based on an assumption that was incorrect. Voting with our feet is not so simple. I am one of those who still think this is a great job. Even with all of the crap, I love going to work every day. I know that I am probably in the minority, but I like working here. It is not that simple to find a captains job when you have been in the right seat again for a few years.

Saltaire, I agree with you to a point. You are correct that a 8k hour pilot is just as ready for command as a 15k hour pilot. And a 15k pilot probably has no better skills than a 8k hour pilot. The only advantage to having those extra 7k hours is the experience.
You will see more problems in those 7k hours and you find that you are surprised less often. They both will make great captains, it is just that one will have less hair, it will all be gray, and he will have to sit on a doughnut because of the hemmoroids. But then thats just me!

Regards,

330 Man

[critical winge]

Well as was expected, at a previous pilots meeting I quote his competence with the memorable statement.

"No F/O will be disadvantaged by DEC's"

So WHY are there 777 F/O's still jumping the airbus guys on commands and you LOCK us on the bus. If you have any credible management skills or decency in you then either get this sorted or offer BYPASS pay as I can never expect another word of truth from you ever. Please reply below with your name for a major boost in your credibility, as for now you command less respect than you could possibly imagine.

I am not being disrespectful, just honest.

Rgds a SAFE and dedicated employee ( I do my bit!)

[jackbauer]

YOU are such a KNOBHEAD.

[critical winge]

Jack, thanks for that, so that either puts you on the 777, not a bus fo, or p1ssed again I see. Obviously not from the sharp end and no idea about what is going on.

Nice one for another totally crap post!

[fullforward]

For God sake, is there a more irrelevant, useless and tiresome discussion that this moaning about badguysdecsbypassingnaivefosduetopoormanagement?
EK, QR, SK, you name it, will do it at their own convenience and discretion unless we have a strong UNION, no matter what you, me or them think about it!
Or the market forces be so at our side that decent seniority lists would be sine qua non condition to consider a job offer.

[jumbo1]

Critical Whinge
You were obviously not here about 3 years ago. If you were you would remember that the roles were reversed with the Airbus guys being upgraded ahead of the Boeing guys. No bypass pay then and there won't be any now. Just hang in there buddy, it will happen soon.
That said, still doesn't make it right does it?
With the current state of affairs I have no doubt in my mind that cross fleet upgrades will be happening again before long.
Safe flying guys and when angry and irritated by all this , go to the lazy river with the new flight international or go have a cold one at the golf club. Let the company do the worrying! Methinks they're doing a lot of that right about now with all the resignations, no shows, cancelled transition courses, engineers leaving etc etc etc etc
Keep discovering..............................
:cool:

[White Knight]

MC - Not sure where your "peeping tom" comment comes from:confused: :confused: keep taking the tablets....

SS - your DEC/SFO conversation sums it all up beautifully:ok:

[Scooter Rassmussin]

This is the calm before the storm!
True there is no more DECs this year , but by march the 777 will run out of qualified F/os to upgrade .
A meeting about transition upgrades came up with we will never do them , apart from the first year of A380 program.
If the 345s and 6s do not continue here and as 2 A380s arrive 1 a330 leaves (remember A350s not avail till 2010 or 2011) thats if they dont get 777-200lrs , Airbus commands will diminish to a dribble for the next 5 years , while because of no transition upgrades to 777 Decs will come in and your friends who started after you will have there commands on 777 .
Also the captains will run into a brick wall as well, as the A380 is a transition upgrade even from A340 it will be dissallowed and Direct entry crews will come off the street probably based in other countries as a way to attract the huge numbers of pilots required.
It affect everybody i hope the chairman is aware of all this as things will get very nasty in the next few years if they stick to this plan, especially after allowing some 777 crews to go on 380 and no A330 crews allowed to go onto 777 in return .
look out !:uhoh:

[jackbauer]

CRITICAL WHINGER Still a knobhead I'm afraid. Some things you just can't change no matter what eh!

[BYMONEK]

Scooter

You may well be correct re. B777 situation, however, slightly confused over your A380 logic. Captains will of course be allowed to transfer from within EK onto the 380 as they are ALREADY Captains. So it's not a transition UPGRADE .

Regards

BYMONEK

[turtleneck]

conclusion of the many posts:
at ek you are basically stuck where they put you on in the first place, as any transition or upgrade or any combination thereof costs money and you are unproductive during training and you then need to be replaced, which costs more money .......
all this unless you are a local or a dinosaur on the 777, they all seem to get the ticket to go on the 380, which will make this a place not to be ........ ai will shudder by the thought of this huge airbus expertise beeing the first flying pig jockeys ........ but then, according to ai, my grand mother could fly any airbus and ek fo's do not have enough experience to get a upgrade on it .......

[shakealeg]

Listen chaps, I'm sure you've all seen the new robot camel jockeys in use because it was becoming inconvenient to use expat humans, I think our days are numbered. Keep smiling... oh and discovering.

[XKV8]

This from what I consider a very reliable source and only relaying what was said to me as I consider it "interesting."

When EK was looking into the 343's they were going to crew them with Atlas guys, much the same way that Atlas runs the 747 Cargo flights. The GCAA would have nothing doing with an American operation flying A6 registered aircraft on a leased/contract basis so hence the rush to hire DEC's and of course as many F/O's as they could interest as the 343's came into the EK fold.
EK will make whatever contract they see fit on an individual basis in order to get the DEC's here. Believe me, all the DEC's do not have the identical contract!
I agree with most posts that the DEC program was not and is not needed considering the quality of F/O's here. What management is telling us in effect is that they don't have any faith in the quality and level of their own training program. If they did they would be saying something along the lines of.... Our training is so superior that our F/O's are ready for the left seat after employment here of 18 mos - 2 years, that coupled with their previous experience.

I haven't looked back in the thread to see who said what but it seems to me that one post assumes that "we are leaving good paying jobs as Captains to come and work here (some as F/O's)so quit the whining." What that person fails to acknowledge is that many who have been hired here in the last 4 or 5 yrs have come from failed Airlines with no where else to go, especially after 9/11. I won't go into naming the bankrupt companies because we all know who they are...except for that one poster apparently!
Would I have come here if the last Airline hadn't gone into Bankruptcy? HELL NO! Even with taxes it was a lifestyle and Country our family grew up in and we miss it and extended family tremendously. We have made the best of Dubai and it ain't so bad after all except for one minor point, when Management at EK get invovled it usually has a negative effect on all. Just the seperated distance from parents, siblings Uncles Aunts etc is what makes it difficult. To have someone brag about his ability to come and go from Dubai (or wherever) at his leisure and drop what ever amount of money he wants because he gets loads of cash after taxes is antagonistic. Just a hunch that as long as he has money he has blood suckers hanging around masquerading as friends.

As far as the transitions are concerned the way I understand it , a newly upgraded Captain is frozen on that type for 6 years from FLC. I suspect that not many DEC's will be coming on to the 380 from anywhere else as the other Airlines operating them by then are fairly decent to work for. As well, the A330 up to the 380 is considered one type by Emirates. Management will have to revamp the transition upgrade policy most likely by then and that would allow senior 777 guys to transfer over, apparently to the disappointment of some. Hopefully for those that want to, management would allow those on the Airbus who wanted to transfer to the 777 an open door and not continue the DEC format.

Just one man's point of view.

[max AB]

Here's a thought...no transitions from the 330/340 or 777 to the 380. Just recruit Captains and FOs straight on to it, suddenly the lack of EK applications would turn into a flood...

The above idea is covered by copyrite and cannot be used without considerable payment to its author

[fullforward]

How difficult is to fish out some true information.
How easy is is to fill spaces with just pure, plain and useless speculation!...
An endless, tiresome and boring process.
Just a thought.

[Payscale]

True info is hard to have about the future here. Speculation will have to sufice.

FOM says that the transfere policy is To Be Advised. TBA.

Surely it will be a combination of B777, AB and DECs in the left seat and off the street FOs. Then again we were transfering A332 FOs to the A340 with 6 months left to command.

...how about this..lets see the darn thing on the ramp first
:D

[Quod Boy]

BYMONEK,you said AS has made and implemented some good decisions since he arrived.

Could you name one?

Have heard the latest brainstorm from Disneyland is to hire DEC and DEP(FO) straight onto 380.i think Max AB is right people may well review their interest.

Off to the pub for a coldie,QB:cool:

[donpizmeov]

Come on Quod Boy, TCAS did tell us to wear our hats, he also mentioned we should keep those ties on in the training college. And also came up with the idea that we need to listen to ATC and change freqs when told too. Inspirational stuff !!!!
He did tell us that the new pay deal was cost neutral. He has stood rock steady about our FTLs eg: we will factor, we will not factor, you can only log this amount etc etc.
I am sure he mentioned something about outdoor plumbing and freedom of speech, but I can not remember those bits.
Don

[MR8]

I can confirm that only about 25% of A380 F/O's will come from inside the company, all the rest will come from outside direct on the A380. Reason for that is economical. If you would upgrade an existing F/O to A380, it would only be for a year or so before that F/O can get a command on the A330... at least that's the reasoning of management.

Why not finally start with a decent career plan?

For example...

2 groups:

1a A330 / A340-300
1b A340 - 500/600
1c A380

2a B777
2b B777 ER/LR

Because of logistical and economical reasons, people can only swap groups (so from Airbus to Boeing or Vica Versa) after 5 years or so.. Swapping between the subdivisions in the Airbus group is possible after 2 years in that subdivision. Entry level for airbus would be A330, all swaps based on seniority.

When places would be available on a certain aircraft, a job vacation wuold be sent via email, and people who meet the criteria can bid for the seat.

Upgrades are exempted from the 5 years in the same group, so transition upgrades are possible, but are not exempted from the 2 years minimum on a subdivision, so if a F/O wants his rating A380, that's ok, as long as he understands that he will be stuck as an F/O for at least 2 years on the fleet.


This is a very basic idea, you would need some fine tuning of course, and it would be a very fair system, where people can actually choose the fleet they want to fly, do their time on it, and if yhey want a change afterwards, they can do it... Would suit changes in family life where people prefer medium or long haul (by choosing the appropriate subdivision)

If a job vacation lacks suitable candidates, EK can put direct entry candidates on it, it would not botter anyone, since no one bidded for that seat anyhow.

This policy could work for Captains straight away. On F/O side, as long as time to command is around three years, there should be some additional rules, but once whe start speaking of commands in 5 years, which won't be to far away anymore for the newjoiners (not because of that stupid rule of 3 years to command, but basic maths), then the same rules could apply for both F/O's and Captains.

As I said, this is just a very basic thought that just sprung to mind, needs a lot of finetuning, so shoot...

MR8

[Cerberus]

MR8,

So how can you confirm that?! You must either be high up in management, god or a savant! Or....is it a W.A.G.

Cerberus:E

[BlueEagle]

Just for what it is worth.

I have heard that Airbus have said that, initially, they will only train people with previous A340 experience, (possibly A330 too, not sure), onto the A380 if this type is new to the company buying it and the training is being done at Toulouse.

This is definitely the path being followed by one major Far East carrier. EK, who are buying a lot of airframes, may be able to get Airbus to change this policy, if they want to or it may suit them just fine. It would seem likely that current A340 crews are probably going to be first onto the A380.

[MR8]

Cerberus,

No, actually quite low on the seniority list, never came close to a management function... But it doesn't hurt asking these things when talking to someone who is up there where decisions are made. You should try it once, these people actually talk to us... ;)

Best regards,

MR8

[Cerberus]

MR8,

So it was a flagrant rumour then! I have been told in the past by VP level people that we are guaranteed all sorts of things that have never come to fruition. I remember sitting at a pilot's meeting where those in the front row were completely dumbfounded by the announcements being made.

Top tip, if someone actually has some power and knows what is going on they tend to keep their cards close to the chest. Those that puff out there chests and spill the beans generally are giving you the benefit of their experience to try and look good. Or worse still making assumptions and as you well know; to assume makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me' ;)

Cerberus

[jollyboy]

Question...

If one guy has been waiting for 8 years for a Command, does that mean that all F/O's that joined after him are still waiting for upgrade? or is it the case that F/O's who joined after have got the nod?

Do not work for airlines. Curious as to how things should/do work

JB

[critical winge]

So no one heard about the 2 x 345s not coming this year, see also Perth 2nd Autumn flight now gone because of this. What about airbus upgrades now! Also I am suprised no one has yet posted about the recent immiinent departure of a more senior member of the jumpseat policy people if rumours are to be believed! THere is only 1 person who IS jump seat .....ed and all the family.

[SecurID]

You mean TC? Yep, have heard that rumour too. Sod it, let's start a new thread....

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

CW, check the Portal matey. There is a post re financing of the latest 345 which will arrive in August, duff rumour mate :E

SyB :zzz:

[worsmasjien]

Duff gen

Guys, flew with a senior management pilot and "at the moment" this is the outlook. The 2 345's will come but as soon as they arrive 2 will go back to airbus for retrofit to fuel tanks (as in Concorde). Now for the "good news", extra 300ER's will be bought as well as 200LR and 200LRF. They will REPLACE 345's and 343's as anybody with a brain can figure out the economics of fuel burn at 60$ a barrell:confused:

Also, they decided last week not to allow transition upgrades and as you all know they will get DEC's on the 380's and 777's.

I wonder what will happen to those fortunate Scarebus fo's stuck on a shrinking fleet with no transition upgrades???:E

Don't shoot the messenger:{

Oh by the way, 600's not coming!!:\

[Oblaaspop]

I can only presume from the gleeful tone of your post that you are on the 777. I'm very happy for you.

You say 'dont shoot the messenger' but then use a :E smiley after your comment about trans upgrades. Just remember you silly little man, we all work for the same company and we're all in this together.

You say that 2 A345's are goining back for a tank retrofit? Presumably that wont take more than a few weeks, so whats your point?

Also for your information, I was flying with the CP Airbus very recently, and he said (and I quote) 'The company will have no choice but to re-introduce transition upgrades' . So when I come accross from the 'Bus to the 777 and you're my F/O, I shall remaind you of the callus tone of your post:E

[Global Nomad]

Oblaaspop

Bit sensitive today? The guy's just trying to feed some info onto the forum

By the way, last time I checked, ownership of people went out with slavery so it would probably pay to go easy on "your" F/O.

Serioulsy though, the one thing that Emirates is consistent in, is change. By the time you qualify to be considered for command I expect to see a change to fleet structure and promotion policy. In other words, no point worrying about it now because it's probably going to change anyway.

[Oblaaspop]

Dont get me wrong, I'm all for info and freedom of speech etc, god knows I've done enough of that in my time!

However, it was the tone of the post that p1ssed me off, not the content!

I can't believe we've got guys in the company gloating over the perceived misfortune of others.....

Very sad!

[donpizmeov]

The A345s are to have a mod done to the fuel system in Oct to get rid of the problem with the FCMCs. Not really sure the concorde had this mod done. Learn something every day.

Taking how closely guarded any information is around here I think all this guessing about what is going to happen is a bit of a waste of time. Of course the 777 fellas want the bus to disappear and more 777s to arrive so they can get a seat swap. Same with the bus drivers. As has been mentioned above, rules change more often here than LHR rain changes his underwear. The company will do whatever it wants to. What we say, think or do has zip all to do with it. This does not make what the company does anywhere near being right, but that is the way it is happening here.

The orders placed at the airshow at the end of the year will give some indication as to what is going to happen. But until then the rumours gleaned from the office cleaner are pretty much only good for an each way bet.

Now a rumour on lotto numbers might be a bit more helpful.

Don

[MR8]

worsmasjien... You're a pathetic looser, can't agree more with Oblaaspop. I'm not even going furthyer into this, just hope you get delayed big time for your command, maybe for not being very mature could be a good reason...or even better, transition upgrades approved right before your turn...
All the rest of my B777 friends, wish you a fast upgrade, loads of fun on your fleet and no flights with abovementioned-like wankers.

MR8

PS: Don, quite right, no need to get into all these rumours before Dubai airshow has come and past.. only then we might know something more.. Who remembers the rumours about B777-200LR's, A350's and extra A380's before Le Bourget?? Never happened....

[worsmasjien]

Oblaaspop

Siestog, but you are touchy. I am on the Bus, I was being sarcastic. Take a pill and go lie down !:{

Sorry Oblaaspop, that was sarcastic again. Have a beer and remember we are all in the same boat. (that goes for Mr8 as well, jumping to conclusions, years and years of crm training wasted I see)