climb clearance - advice please

[DocLeaf]

I'd welcome advice please on the following scenario Class D controlled airspace departure:-

handover from tower to approach
contact approach - G-____ outbound _____ VFR requesting FIS

Approach FIS what level do you wish to climb?

G-____ 3000 feet

Approach Climb approved 3000 feet published vfr departure __ ______

To me this implies climb within Class D airspace to 3000 feet - otherwise climb would be outside the zone in Class G with no control requirement - but found this a bit ambiguous - could I have some views please

(became apparent in the event that controller expected climb to be outside control zone)

[Chilli Monster]

You're not the only one it's ambiguous to.

If you're VFR leaving a Class 'D' then you're subject to a formal clearance ("Cleared to leave CAS On track xyz not above ???? ft).

With this in mind, when you were asked for your cruising level a better response to you would have been "On leaving CAS report reaching 3000ft" or similar. That way the leaving clearance still stands, plus you're not being given a climb clearance (which you can't technically be given in Class 'G' anyway).

If there was going to be any ambiguity then you should have just been answered with "Roger" until you were outside CAS and then the climb should have been mentioned - not before.

[Turn It Off]

Not sure its ambiguous, think its wrong!!

There is absolutely no indication that the climb could not have been taken immediately, and I would suggest that it was only the local knowledge of the Instructor / Trainee Pilot that raised the query in this issue, their hunch was right. However, if in doubt, ask!

The phraseology was wrong if it was directly as you quote.

[foghorn]

Wouldn't you be under a Radar Control Service in class D anyway for starters unless you had already left the zone?

[Evil J]

Have to agree as well. If that was said to me I would assume I could climb there and then, otherwise why would it need "approval"?? If it was outside CAS I wouldn't even ask

[Spitoon]

foghorn, beware of generalisations. There's no reason to assume an RCS would be provided. The last Class D I worked it was norma practice to give VFR clearances not above a particular level and for TWR to work them until the zone boundary. Obviously it's not quite as simple as that and the procedures catered specifically for certain situations which were handled slightly differently but the principle was that they were VFR and allowed to fly VFR. Trying to reconcile VFR with a RCS in practical application raises many questions, possible answers to which have been the subject of many discussions (usually on LCC chats). But definitive answers are hard to find.

On the original question, it's not clear from the post where the aircraft was in relation to the airspace and I don't know what the MATS 2 says so I wouldn't like to venture a guess as to what should have happened. But if the R/T was as described it's ambiguous at best.

[CloggyUK]

As far as i understand you could climb to 3000 ft inmediately. If if approach has no other traffic to affect, why keep you low? Saves people complaining about a/c flying "low". (not that you are breaking the rules, but the general public seems to think that 1000 AGL is low).
It happens quite a lot at Stansted that we give VFR deps 'not above 1500 ft', when clear of circuit and traffic info passed on arrivals and deps we transfer them to approach. When they have no traffic to affect, they'll climb them in the CTR (class D) to 2400 feet so when they leave the zone they're under CAS. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Hope it's any help.

Cloggy

[foghorn]

spitoon - thanks for setting me straight, digressing slightly it's interesting you should say that as the arrangement you mention commonly happens at airports in other countries eg. tower works VFRs in the CTR at 2,000ft or below right up to the boundary, issuing VFR zone clearances etc., and I was wondering the other day why I hadn't experienced this in the UK - most units seem to have approach working VFRs further out. From what you say it does happen - I've just not been to a unit that does it yet.

[DocLeaf]

Thanks for the replies - very helpful

Normal practice locally is handover from tower to approach well within the zone - have had climb clearances within the zone many times in the past, but slightly different phraseology made us wonder about ATC intentions - probably better to ask for confirmation from now on.......at the risk of upsetting the normally exceptionally helpful controllers --- apologies in advance

[Chilli Monster]

Doc

Never apologise if you have to ask to clarify something. For one thing it's the safest way, and for the other it means the other guy isn't doing their job properly by being specific. You never know, it might get them to re-evaluate and improve themselves.

[Pierre Argh]

My reading of it (without knowing the airspace structure) is that APP, recognising you were on a VFR departure, and there being nothing to affect, issued a clearance to climb out of the zone into Class G airspace... expediting you on your merry way.

In which case I can see little wrong with that... although accept the reported RT exchange is a little unclear. If in doubt ask... and never assume!!!