IFR climb in an entirely VFR flight

[Frunobulax]

Today I had a Cessna willing to fly VFR from my CTR ("C" class, GND-FL105), weather was much below any minima for a controlled VFR - OVC 200 ft.
There were no chaces of improvment, so the pilot eventually asked for an IFR climb over the top of the clouds (which was around 2500 ft) and then continue VFR, saying he was fully IFR qualified and the A/C was also IFR equipped.
The FPL was VFR only.

I let him go, not asking for any FPL changes, however now I am a bit sceptical about it.

Would you?

[M609]

Sure, happends a lot here with foreign "tourist" enroute to the north cape. FPL VFR, but encountering IMC enroute, resulting in a need for IFR for the remainder of the flight or climb IFR to VFR on top.

It's the PICs responsebility to have the correct ratings/equipment.

Now, last year I encountered a UK reg Skylane that got 'stuck' VFR on top, and requested vectors for ILS up at Tromsø.

Answer to question "Are you IFR rated and equipped?" when he said he could not find a hole in the cloud cover was:

"......equipped, but not rated, but I can fly an ILS...."

He found a hole eventually, and we got an introduction to the Uk IMC rating.......

[DFC]

As far as I am aware, in Poland, the legal minimum height for any VFR flight to operate at is 500ft above the surface.

When a pilot requests a VFR departure with a 500ft cloud ceiling, ask them how they can reach 500ft with such cloud cover!

Also in class C the pilot must remain 1000ft vertically from cloud on a VFR clearance........how can 1000ft be made out of 200ft?

There is also the requirement for the flight to comply with any slot restrictions before being given an IFR clearance.

It is not for ATC to police pilot qualifications. However, when something one believes dangerous happens one should report the matter.

Think of it from a safety point of view.........would you like some unsuspecting member of the public departing with a pilot who tries to fly VFR in such conditions?

As a matter of interest, what country was this aircraft registered in?

Regards,

DFC

[cdb]

Hmmm, in the UK you can be VMC (and thus fly VFR) if you are flying below 3000', clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.

So, in theory, with a 540' cloud base (reported as 500') you could happily fly VFR at 500'

[Scott Voigt]

In the US we do it all the time, it is called a VFR climb to On Top. No flight plan required and is used to just get above or below a thin overcast... The clearance would be very short term and sound something like, Cessna 123 cleared to the Ranger VOR, climb and maintain 4000 if not on top by 4000. maintain 4000 and advise...

We also have a long range On Top (OTP) clearance that is done on an IFR flight...

regards

Scott

[PA-28-180]

I'm just curious....are Special VFR clearances (clear of clouds, 1 mile vis) available/used in Europe? Elsewhere? Or is this only in the US?
Thanks.

[M609]

It's used in europe. 1.5km vis for fixed wing and 800m for helicopter in Norway at least.

(In Norway, it's only allowed for inbound flights if the vis is below 3 km)

[Frunobulax]

@ DFC:

There's some misunderstanding. The pilot wanted an IFR climb until getting over the top of the clouds and then switch to VFR - he did so; he was issued an IFR departure clearance and reported VMC and then cancelled IFR.
In C class above 3000 ft one needs 1000 ft vertical distance from clouds and 5 km vis - no problem about that.

He did NOT fly VFR through the clouds, and the IFR part of the flight ended in my airspace - I didn't need to have a CTOT calculated for him ;)

Tha A/C was German

@ PA-28

In Poland the minima for VFR Spec are:
- daytime: vis 1,5 km heli/2 km fixed; clouds less than BKN not below 100 m heli/150 m fixed;
-at night: heli 3km/300m, fixed 5 km/500m, minimal height is 200m heli/300m fixed above obstacles

Of course clear of clouds and with visual reference with the ground

[spikeair]

I could be missing something here but surely if you are above the clouds and not in sight of the surface, you are not VFR. You are VMC , big difference.
So to get above the clouds you'd need an IFR clearance the whole time.
VFR is clear of cloud and in sight of the surface, if you are vmc on top , you are obviouslt not in sight of he surface and therefore that makes you IFR.

Bottom line you you are VMC on top and not VFR on top.

[Gargleblaster]

Here in Denmark we both have the concepts of "special VFR" (only applies in a CTR, BKN at 500', 3km vis) and VFR-on-top.

The latter requires you to have 300 hours, the AC to be IFR equipped, but don't think you need any special rating for it.

And you can't fly through clouds to get up there, have to be free of clouds at all times.

So spikeair: Nope, you're not IFR, you're flying "VFR-on-top".

[fat'n'grey]

Two points from the above posts.

In the UK when not flying over congested areas of cities towns or settlements or open air assembly of persons I may fly no closer than 500ft from any person, vessel, vehicle or structure. In other words, I could fly at 1 ft above terrain/sea if my imagination of what may happen if the engine quits would let me. Which it never would :ugh:

Spike
I may also depart IFR and operate VFR on top of cloud.

[JEP]

Gargleblaster: a minor detail - actually you only need 150 hours - and an ATC flight plan should be submitted for the flight.

But VFR it is.

[Gargleblaster]

fat'n'grey: Is this true ?

I haven't heard of any country where you can go below 500' AGL (or sea level :-) in any apparatus having fixed wings unless taking off or landing.

.. OK, or crop-dusting, or ...

Also there are special rules for structures, no closer than 600m and no lower than 1000' above.

Must be a deviation from JAR and ICAO rules. Glad we don't have this rule here !

[fat'n'grey]

Gargle..

Rule 5 of the UK Air Nav Order, relevant bit summarised here...

500’ Rule (Rule 5e)

This rule states that: An aircraft shall not fly any closer than 500’ to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure It does not mean that you cannot fly below 500’. As long as there are no persons, vessels, vehicles or structures in the area (below or 500’ to the side) then you may fly as low as you like. For example over a large lake with no boats or swimmers you can fly at one foot altitude if you wish. The same applies over a deserted moorland with no fences or tractors around. However, since it is very hard to determine what structures etc may be in the vicinity (and in the interests of safety), 500’ should be regarded as a minimum for most purposes.

[Scott Voigt]

Spike;

In the US if you are following the rules for clear of clouds it doesn't matter where they are above, below, next to you, you are still VFR...

regards

Scott

[foghorn]

Gargleblaster - different countries have very different 500' rules.

Many mainland European countries have the 'not below 500ft' type rule you mention.

South Africa for instance allows descent below 500ft as long as it does not cause annoyance to persons on the ground.

The UK rule says you cannot fly within 500ft of any Person, Vessel, Vehicle or Structure as fat'n'grey says. This sounds quite flexible until you wonder if, legally, a fencepost is a structure - that makes the rule quite limiting in most of the UK.

[Pierre Argh]

VFR is clear of cloud and in sight of the surface

Spike.... like several others above I point out these are just one of the conditions for VFR... many others can be applied, that take into account visibility, distance from cloud horizontally and vertically.... you do NOT need to be in sight of the surface.

One factor is that the pilot "requested" this departure and was qualified/equipped to do so... it did not have to be granted. If the controller took into account factors such as "other traffic" and the "likelihood of acheiving VMC" before bending the rules he was simply saving the pilot the chore of re-submitting his FPL.

Whether this is right or not... or just being flexible is the question?

[pipertommy]

Hi,i have recently aquired the IMCR.I have a couple of questions i feel are unanswered by the course contents.Example:if i depart VFR and encounter lowering cloud and want to climb through this to get "on top" i would inform atc that my flight is now IFR and request a RIS/RAS.Once on top i would inform atc again and can reduce back to FIS(if good vis).From this point i now require an instrument approach to let down(RIS/RAS again),if this is located in class D airspace would i require a flight plan to enter under IFR? or can i file one inflight? If anyone could help me with these questions i would be very grateful:O

[flower]

Pipertommy ,
an infight flightplan would be fine with us at Cardiff, just advise you are inbound IFR and we can take your details. If you have departed VFR from us there will still be no problems.

[pipertommy]

Thanks for the reply,very quick!Clears that up then do most airports share the view?.Just to start using it now!just one last question,what is the IFR departure procedure at cardiff for light single`s?is it just straight ahead until terrain safe and turn on track?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Spike.... like several others above I point out these are just one of the conditions for VFR... many others can be applied, that take into account visibility, distance from cloud horizontally and vertically.... you do NOT need to be in sight of the surface.

You only need to be in sight of the surface when operating below 3000' in Class F or G. It is also an option for Class C, D, or E, if you can't meet the 1000' vertically from cloud condition (which could be 1000' ABOVE the cloud).

It's all in the ENR section of the AIP under the VFR section.