Ipa or Balpa

[Hoggtart]

Having been in both Balpa and now settled in the IPA why are so many attracted to Balpa at 1% of Salary vs a fixed fee at the IPA?
The level of support at the IPA and its affiliate the IPF is of a very high standard, they offer all the support any pilot both employed or unemployed could want. The benefits offered are of a very high standard and the legal cover is at the members initiation and not decided by a Balpa committee.
Agreed Balpa is bigger but does that necessarily make it better?
In my time as a member of the IPA the level of help I was given in finding a job was fantastic by comparison to Balpa, they are very active and make calls to members when a job opportunity comes their way.

[Red 69]

IPA wins hands down! BALPA are next to useless and very expensive with it. Give yourself a payrise that BALPA couldn't secure for you by leaving them! It's beyond me why people stay. You can get a lot more interesting magazines and a damn sight more of them for what you pay BALPA each month. They may have been a useful force in days gone by but nowdays seem to have no real interest in their members welfare or any real power to do anything about it. And yes, before the short sighted BALPA lot bleat on about strength in numbers, if that were the case then people wouldn't leave and thus leave you weaker. It's a vicious circle I know, but brought on by your obvious indifference to your members.

[Rainboe]

Terms & Endearment rather than Rumours & News?

Why do you think this is an appropriate forum to air your opinions and attack an organisation that many think does a fine job? If you don't like it, keep out.

[On standby]

BALPA can't even manage their own website. Many company forums have gone and the threads closed with no notice to the members.

Those are the members that pay the wages of the staff at BALPA. The very staff that couldn't be bothered to tell the mambers what was happening. That would not happen at the IPA.

So more money and less service....?

As for a fine job... I know several that would dispute that.

[Rainboe]

The implementation of the new IT system is probably being far less than satisfactory. However the strength of BALPA has been its achievements over the years. If that is all you have to slate the organisation with, then there is not a lot wrong. Join or don't join- but badmouthing with general accusations and no chance of reply to specific complaints is not fair on any organisation.

What is there 'Rumours & News' in this?

[FlapsOne]

The cover provided by IPA wouldn't get you through a tribunal in the day and age.........what's the point of that?

[wheelbarrow]

Rainboe,

I accept that BALPA have obviously worked for you, however ask a number of people that they have been totally indifferent to. Following 911 I like a number of colleagues found myself in a very difficult situation, my employer was taking the proverbial out of a number of its crews. We were a BALPA airline, recognised by the company, yet they were ineffectual as a group and on an individual basis they regularly ignored any requests for contact.

I had a particular problem in that I had an agreement in writing, yet when I decided to exercise that agreement the company refused. I contacted BALPA for help & advice & received a phone call in response 5 weeks later, by that time it was too late.

I am not alone in this situation as a number of friends & colleagues received the same lack of interest & response.

I gave myself a pay rise, joined the IPA/IPF for information reagrding aviation but then spent another £11.00 per month on the T&G, now there's strentgh in numbers.. 2 million members & rising & guaranteed representation, can BALPA give that guarantee?

[kowloon]

I have to disagree with Flaps one. I'm in a Big Airline and am fed up with BALPA. I've called on BALPA and they have been found wanting. So I had to decide what value I wanted for my money. I need representation (a prisoners friend) if I ever get in the s##t with the management and legal expenses cover if I really c##k up. I have that with the IPF.

To date I have found that if I do my honest best, then the management is reasonable with me. I pay for extra legal insurance cover £250,000. The whole package through the IPF costs me about £23 pm instead of £65pm.

At LGW we are used to getting sweet FA out of BALPA. I get what BALPA negotiate whether I'm a member or not. I'm quite sure the IPF would do an equally good job in BALPA's place so i have no guilt. BALPA try to do good things for aviation but they have forgotton the individuals who pay their fees. So I don't belong anymore.

I think a bit of low cost competition might make people sit up and look around at the alternatives. Now where have I seen that happen before?

[Munkeh]

For what it's worth I've been a member of BALPA for a couple of decades and in that time I've been made redundant twice. On both occasions BALPA were heavily involved and on both occasions I would rate their contribution as utterly useless. By this I mean I would have been in, at worst, exactly the same situation if BALPA hadn't been involved. On both occasions there was lots of talk, lots of noise but absolutely no democratic consultation with the members. The BALPA CC rather arrogantly decided what was best for the members and no discussion was allowed. I'm at a complete loss as to why I have never left this useless body and continue to waste my money with them. Laziness I suspect. Perhaps this thread will give me the motivation. What's the web address for the IPA?

[the latest member]

www.ipapilot.com

Run by pilots for..., er... pilots ;)

[kinsman]

Have just left BALPA and joined the IPA! I was a big supporter of BALPA and was even on our company CC. However, over a troubled two years they have performed very badly in my own company over redunduncies, pay reviews etc....

They have their good points but at the end of the day they have not proved value for money! I used to argue that BALPA was only as good as the company CC! I was wrong! Though our CC has not covered itself in glory either!

But before we get carried away slagging them off they have been a huge influance over the years for the good. I guess it comes down to you pay your money and make your own choice.
Worth remembering the legal insurance with the IPA is at your discretion, BALPA decide if they want to fight your case or not!

[M.Mouse]

I am a member of BALPA and they are far from perfect. I have just looked at the IPA site and to quote:We also offer legal assistance of £10,000 to our Full members as well as a free legal help line. There is also a facility to top up the Legal cover to £250,000.
If anybody believes that is sufficient (the £250,000 that is) for anything except that which is not major is living in cloud cuckoo land.

[Sheikh Zabik]

The problem with Balpa is that it is still essentialy the British Airways Line Pilots' association. (Tin helmets on as the usual suspects choke on their cheese boards and reach for their jewel encrusted keyboards)

It was hijacked by an elite and priviledged minority of top earners who were infuriated at the liberalisation of its appeal to a broader base. Result, the reforming chairman was kicked out and we now have high profile campaigns at vast expense about lifting the pension cap to nearly two million pounds and absolutely not a breath about the very many poor cousins who will be lucky to stay out of poverty in retirement.

Legal representation to my certain knowledge has been absolutely abysmal and the resources of the most talented principal negotiators are stretched to the limit.

yes, there has been change and the "log" looks impressive but the issues which interest the plutocratic elite who hold sway are of little relevance to hack regional and low cost pilots.

What is stopping the floodgates opening and abandonment so richly deserved en mass is the fact that the IPA cannot offer the hands on Industrial support on a day to day basis that Balpa supposedly provides.

It is chicken and egg situation but if enough join then it would have the resources to blow Balpa out of the water as there would not be a single reason for staying with it.

(Ear plugs in for the squeals of protest)

[Honest Fr@nk]

T & G.

Why bother with an airline related union.ie BALPA, IPF. I'm led to believe that the T & G use the same lawyers for airline related matters as BALPA do. So why waste all your hard earned money on those BA boys.

[M.Mouse]

The problem with Balpa is that it is still essentialy the British Airways Line Pilots' association. (Tin helmets on as the usual suspects choke on their cheese boards and reach for their jewel encrusted keyboards)
Errr.....no, BA members are and have been a minority for some years.

It was hijacked by an elite and priviledged(sic) minority of top earners who were infuriated at the liberalisation of its appeal to a broader base. Result, the reforming chairman was kicked out and we now have high profile campaigns at vast expense about lifting the pension cap to nearly two million pounds and absolutely not a breath about the very many poor cousins who will be lucky to stay out of poverty in retirement.
Two points the merits, or rather lack of, of Chris Darke have been done to death. The present General Secretary is a breath of fresh air. The pensions cap would, at a guess, have affected probably 25%+ of the BALPA membership, who also happen to have and continue to pay the highest subscriptions. Doesn't affect me but a legitimate campaign and cost effective campaign.

Legal representation to my certain knowledge has been absolutely abysmal and the resources of the most talented principal negotiators are stretched to the limit..
Your certain knowledge is about as accurate as the rest of your rather pathetic diatribe. Prior to the removal of Mr. Darke the method of deciding the merits or otherwise of a legal case was poor and inconsistent. That has changed and I can think of several people who have been grateful for BALPA's support, Ms. J. Starmer for instance - hardly a user of a jewel encrusted keyboard.

yes, there has been change and the "log" looks impressive but the issues which interest the plutocratic elite who hold sway are of little relevance to hack regional and low cost pilots.
You obviously do not read 'The Log' or if you do it is a different one from the one I read or is it not sufficiently puerile?

What is stopping the floodgates opening and abandonment so richly deserved en mass is the fact that the IPA cannot offer the hands on Industrial support on a day to day basis that Balpa supposedly provides.
If BALPA, by implication, doesn't provide industrial support then why stick with them? Not, per chance, because, for all its good work and reputation, the IPA cannot hold a candle to BALPA in terms of resources and influence?

It is chicken and egg situation but if enough join then it would have the resources to blow Balpa out of the water as there would not be a single reason for staying with it.
No loss of members to the IPA will just make BALPA less effective. The IPA will remain a poor alternative with little real clout for a long time to come.

(Ear plugs in for the squeals of protest).
No squeals more a rolling of the eyes in despair at the short sighted, rather ignorant posts by people such as yourself.

[Sheikh Zabik]

A bit too much ported stilton I think Mr Mouse:D :D

I am sure that you sincerely hold the views that you do. That does not mean that my own view is puerile or any less valid than your own. Indeed having served on our company council for several years I am very well placed to comment on exactly what goes on at New Road.............and much of it would leave many members very substantialy less than happy if they saw what their subscriptions were spent on.


I know as a matter of fact that my views are shared by many and that given the slightest half decent opportunity most would quit tomorrow for an organisation which was less elitist and more relevant to their own needs.

The new order are far too concerned about high profile political issues and promoting their own status within Whitehall. What is lacking is good basic industrial support for a broad church membership.

[kinsman]

M Mouse

I have some sympathy for your point of view but sadly BALPA are not the force they were. I can only speak from my own experience. BALPA have performed very badly in my own airline on a number of issues. They have supplied poor support to our CC and failed on several occasions to provide good legal support to members who needed it!

[M.Mouse]

Indeed having served on our company council for several years I am very well placed to comment on exactly what goes on at New Road.............and much of it would leave many members very substantialy less than happy if they saw what their subscriptions were spent on.

As a former rep. with signinficant misgivings about the way BALPA operates should you not be informing the wider membership 'exactly what goes on', instead of making posts full of innuendo?

kinsman

And how did BALPA perform badly, we would all like to know because if BALPA are so awful I will leave? But then again nobody has ever come up with facts that bear scrutiny about any alleged failings.

The legal cases which have not gained BALPA support/funding, certainly in recent times, are those with little hope of being won. Sounds a good system to me.

I mentioned before that Jessica Starmer is a good case where BALPA has given support. Wide implications for all pilots despite many of us (me included) being fundamentally opposed to her. If BALPA had not supported her then I would question the method by which legal funding is decided.

[hoey5o]

A quick question for those in the know.
Is your Balpa cover affected in anyway by being a little slow to inform them of promotion (left seat) ?

[kinsman]

M Mouse

I have no intention of posting my airlines dirty laundry in public! You make your own choice on BALPA I have made mine.

Not a lot of use having legal cover if you can't get it when you need it! The cases I have seen may not have been won but a better resolution may have be obtained for the pilots concerned had BALPA backed the guys up! Now perhaps that sits well with you but it does not with me!

It is a question of choice!

[M.Mouse]

So an anonymous contributor alludes to BALPA 'not supporting the guys' but refuses to elaborate and does not even mention the company.

OK,you have convinced me I shall resign from BALPA.

[Firestorm]

I left BALPA because I thought they could not provide value for money. The CC reps gave up the job in our company because they had so little support from BALPA against a company that rode rough shod over the supposed agreement between the union and themselves. Not only that, but BALPA did nothing to notify the members, and we had no CC for 6 months.

More generally, I can not believe that they have let the industry get away with being allowed to make pilots pay for type-ratings with absolutely no comment what so ever. At the very least it could have been allowed to support the industry through the lean periods, but now that companies are really having to work at recruitment (ie demand out strips supply), it sstill goes on, and has become common practice in all but a handful of airlines.

If you want a union with a pilot bias, try the IPF: if not, TGWU. Save yourself a bomb every year.

[puddle-jumper2]

Definitely IPA/IPF for me.

I have been made redundant in the past and BALPA just didn't come up with the goods - all be it a long time ago.

In my current airline the CC try their hardest but in my opinion are not supported enough by BALPA. The CC should not be expected to negotiate directly with the Company - they should be there to take the votes and pass on the info. to BALPA who should then do the negotiating.

The more that join the IPF the closer we will get to having a real alternative. :ok:

[Scottie]

I've just resigned from the IPA as they've increased the subscription to £11. I've been a member for 6 or 7 years (joined at the same time as BALPA) and in that time they were great for keeping an ear to the ground and getting employment information.

They had a flagging out campaign a while back but that sums up 6 years of membership. They try hard but have no "clout" whatsoever. I saw £11 as unneccessary expenditure seeing as I'm in a BALPA recognised company.

BALPA subs work out about £19 after tax relief and for that I get an awful lot more. I also pay through BALPA Financial Services for a Loss of Licence policy which they offer.

Nothing is perfect but some are more perfect than others :ok: