Advicefor a Newbee Please

[Angelseeker]

Some advice please?
I have started work recently with a flying school in Wollongong. All the instructors are employed on a casual basis and we have all had to sign an agreement waiving our rights to Work Cover and Super. Is this legal and should we be doing this?
I ask the question basically for 2 reasons. 1 is because most of us earn our only source of income through this work (we are paid an hourly rate only when we fly) although a couple of us have other part time work too and 2, I have been told that recently one pilot had an instrument renewal failed by the CFI because he wouldn't sign the agreement and that the old CFI failed his instructor renewal (and was not even given a Grade 3) because he wouldn't sign either.
Surely this type of stuff is not fair and must be bad for the industry especially for someone like myself just starting out? Are all organisations in this game the same and have I got myself tied up in an illegal business?

[Di_Vosh]

I'm reasonably certain (not 100%; maybe The Voice can help out here) that what they're doing is legal; providing your contract of employment has these conditions in it.

For example, I'm self employed in I.T. I pay both my own Super and Workcover. However, I'm paid considerably more than a permanent employee who holds a comparable position.

Do you have your own workcover? If not, you're running a huge risk. You should be covered the minute you leave home to go to work, while at work, and on the way home (if you're going directly home).

I've got to ask: Why are you working for such an employer? IMO, any employer who refuses to pay Super and Workcare (Unless you get paid AT LEAST $80.00 per hour for your instructing) cannot have much regard for any employee.

If any of your hearsay is true (be cautious about such hearsay, though) then that would go to confirm that your employer has you all in very low regard.

I'd be guessing then that you'll have a few more unpleasant surprises in store the longer you work there.

Ask yourself: Does the burger flipper at the local Maccas get treated as poorly as the staff where you work?

Leave.

[maxgrad]

Don't know the legalities to your questions here but if you go on "gut" value alone.
If you can move elsewhere do so.
For the record I don't think it is legal or will hold in front of a judge.

[Arm out the window]

Although I haven't looked too deeply into the legalities, I work as a casual and my employer pays super; the fact that these people have asked you to sign an agreement waiving super and workcover certainly rings alarm bells with me.
If you're employed as a contractor, you should provide your own insurance, injury protection and so on, but as a casual employee I'm pretty sure that the employer is obliged to do so.
I think your employer is attempting to shirk his or her responsibilities here by putting one over on you, and I'd advise you to get onto the relevant government departments to suss out what your entitlements are (sorry, I don't have the contact details but I'm sure a few phone calls should set you in the right direction).
I'm certainly no unionist, but it sounds like these guys are doing something dodgy that will set you up for a fall if you're not prepared for the possibility of some kind of workplace accident.

[COLLIE]

What they are making you do is quite illegal especially as you say, you are employed by them for the majority of your income.
These types of organisations only manage to do this sort of thing because pilots allow them to!

There are more honest organisations around that will give a newbee a fair start - WALK and don't look back!:*

[Like This - Do That]

That agreement is tripe. All employers have certain minimum workers' compensation obligations. See the NSW Workcover site for more details:

[/URL]

As for super, if you're a casual employee it makes no difference. The employer must provide at least the minimum super as part of your remuneration. Here's the link:

[URL=http://]http://www.ato.gov.au/super/content.asp?doc=/content/29505.htm&mnu=3982&mfp=001/007 (http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/Employers/LegalResponsibility/default.htm)

I think there are also some provisions for employers providing super for contractors too, in certain cases.

Get evidence that this swine is attempting to force you into these dodgy conditions and dump him in the poop. Then leave.

Good luck

[jorvad]

If in doubt, ask the AFAP , www.afap.org.au
or Phone 0396994200.

Problem Solvered

[Super Cecil]

Jorvad, is Solvering washing your hands of things? if so right number.

[shortandsmelly]

with a flying school in Wollongong



That narrows it down a little...:cool:

[Counter-rotation]

Man this sort of :yuk: :yuk: makes me mad. If you do this now, it will only get worse later on. DO NOT WORK FOR SUCH AN OPERATION - PLEASE!!! I know you can do better.

If you work here under these terms, teaching others to fly, BTW, where are they gunna go? where will it stop?

Call the tax department re the super thing - they'd be interested.

And remember, you have 6 (six, count 'em!) years to file a claim for unpaid wage entitlements.

S*ith*ad employers BEWARE! :ouch:

CR.

[Ash767]

Angelseeker,

Basically if you are employed as a casual and not a contractor your employer MUST contribute 9% to your selected super fund.

Work cover is work cover and that is it! Like "Like This - Do That" said, there is minimums that an employer must follow.

How long ago did you sign the contract? Most contracts under general law have a cooling off period.

I would tell them to go and jump. Work for somebody that is worth working for.

I strongly suggest you follow this up. I take it you have a copy of the contract (you are allowed to have a copy).

Ash767:ok:

[gatfield]

IR in Aus is only going to get worse with Howard and his cronies.

[WINGED WONDER]

I have spoken with both Work Cover and the ATO and most of the advice here is correct; the process you have been subjected to is illegal and is not encouraged by either organisations.
You are advised to contact either or both organisations and make a protected discloure which means your identity remains anonimous. Only after receiving an official complaint can action be taken against the offending organisation.
If you won't do yoursefl a favour; how about doing a favour for anyone that follows behind you AND THE INDUSTRY in stamping out this type of slave labour once and for all!:*

[VRB03KT CAVOK]

If you are a 'contractor' instead of a casual employee what are the minimums you should be doing to protect yourself and is there anything that a flying school is legally obliged to pay or cover?

[Bill Smith]

Being a "Contractor" opens up a can of worms. You have to think about paying your own public liability insurance, pay your own tax etc. I guess ATO would look on you as a business therefore monthly GST statments etc.

Don't even go there !!

Wageline is also a good one to get involved.

[COLLIE]

This organisation is headed up by a chap who hails from a faulty career in CASA (it was recommended he leave under some very mysterious circumstances).
If anyone in the game should know better on how 'slave labour' has a poor effect on the whole industry, it should be him!:mad:
Pity the troops are not covered by Workcover, don't get paid Super and are expected to work for a lousy $40 per hour when he and his empire are on huge wage packages and the rest are running around in new company cars! No wonder the GA Industry in Australia is at an all-time low when sc*mbags like this have an influence upon it!
Report the b*astards to the appropriate authorities and do it now!

[shortandsmelly]

Re contractor v employee:

This from a basic aviation law course I did as part of a degree (no we won't go into that one again):
What is an important factor is whether you're a contractor or an employee. The way that the courts determine this these days is what's called 'the multi-factor (or indicia) test'. In short, this looks at a lot of things: including manner and nature of remuneration (regular? PAYE tax taken out? paid for the completion of a particular project?), provision and maintenance of equipment needed for the job, hours of work and the degree of control over the worker's activities.

The way I see it (I'm not a lawyer so don't take this as definitive), there are a few bits of this operation that suggests employer/employee relationship: the fact that uniforms are required suggests a certain degree of control, as does prescribed working hours, and the major bits of equipment required for the work (ie the aeroplanes) are provided by the company. There may be more as well but on balance I'd say it seems it's an employer-employee arrangement - in which case super and WorkCover are a legal entitlement.

That make any sense at all?

[COLLIE]

I would agree your assessment is about 100% correct.
We now learn that the pilot who failed the IFR renewal took them to task BUT WAS PAID an undisclosed sum (confidentiality clause) not to persue the matter further. (smells pretty sad?):*
This is the same mob that launched a charter company (with all the hoopla) last year and have done only 3 charters since - there advertising claimed they had a conquest on line but naturally all of it was Bulldust.:mad:
This is the same mob who maintains an AUSAR contract with staff on 24 hours standby for rescue work BUT very seldom actually has these people in place although they report to AMSAR each morning with crew lists that are bodgy. What a farce?:\

[raafboy26]

mate, as an IR major myself you have hit the nail on the head with the court's interpretative tests re: the employer/employee relationship. even though an employer may classify you as a contractor, the employment relationship may indeed prove to be otherwise.

typically, many a 'contractor' uses this test to seek relief through the courts with regard to unfair dismissal; whereby the court has subsequently found the employment relationship to indicate that of employer/employee rather than an individual contract.

I learnt to fly at the given organisation several years ago.

Another poster stated a few months back, which in my experience I can vouch for:

"avoid wollongong like the plague".

[shortandsmelly]

I learnt to fly at the given organisation several years ago.

So did I. The instructors try hard but they're not given much joy for their efforts :(

[PROPSWINGA]

Student has done 4 hours from scratch. School needs to get a 152 to Bankstown for an oil change. Student agrees to the service run and the trip includes IF (under the hood) there and back. Student is charged DUAL RATES AND IS CHARGED THE LANDING FEE AT YSBK! He questions if this is right and the CFI confirms that he is to pay all the associated fees for the 'lesson'!:mad:
Outcome: 1 very pi**ed off student who walks and finishes all his training elsewhere.
Business accuman: ZIP! Save $12 and lose $25,000.00 +

[Angelseeker]

Thank you to everyone that responded. Your advice is appreciated. Unfortunately anyone here caught talking to anyone about these issues has been threatened with dismissal and everyone has been banned from participating in the Prune debate on this or any other subject!
So much for healthy debate and fair trading principles:(

[Towering Q]

How are 'they' going to know you are participating in the Pprune debate if you post at home under an anonymous name?

Sounds like it's time to vote with your feet.

Must be other ways to achieve the dream.

[shortandsmelly]

Probably can't afford the net at home due p$ss-poor instructor pay... :sad:

the CFI confirms that he is to pay all the associated fees for the 'lesson'!

At one stage recently they had a Duchy online that was from Bankstown - needed to be ferried back and forwards - one instructor doing their MECIR was charged private rates to do the ferry flights.

Yeah OK they were the only student requiring the aircraft - but they were also EMPLOYED by the school in question.

Figure that one out...:rolleyes:

[Dookie on Drums]

What a joke this place is!! :mad:

I have seen this sort of behaviour first hand there at this organisation.

My feet did the the talking and I went elsewhere as I could not believe the audacity of this operator.

All of what has been stated is true in the previous posts.

Not to worry....I hear that their AusSAR contract is on thin ice as it is.
:ok:

[Pitch and Break]

CASA needs to look very closely at the SAR functions of this organisation. It is not reasonable or fair to expect an organisation so strapped for cash to be operationally ready for these types of functions on a 24 hour basis - and this organisation is not!
Almost without fail, these guys/gals wheel out the Chieftain on the last day of the month and fly the required ILS and NDB approach - for the remainder of the month, the aircraft is hardly ever flown and certainly not by all of the rostered aircrews! Have another Sydney to Hobart yacht race-type incident and you have some very uncurrent pilots trying to do the impossible: a real recipe for disaster that could have the most devastating outcome :*
Dookie: The AusSAR contract should have been pulled years ago when it was obvious to everyone that they were incapable of maintaining the contractual crewing requirements without cheating on the books! On top of all that, it is alleged they have financially rolled nearly every maintenance provider in the state.

[Dookie on Drums]

Pitch yes I realise this but somehow they still held onto that contract. God knows how!

I remember seeing the guys take the Partenavia rather than the Chieftain out for their required ILS etc as it was cheaper so their currency was shot when they were actually called to task! :(

I could go on with the disasters which unfolded down there!:yuk:

[Ash767]

Angelseeker

I feel sorry for what you are going through. It is a shame that an employer thinks that they are able to treat employees like this. I can not understand how ignorant they are regarding super and work cover. Take the advice of many on this forum:

1) Do not allow yourself to be bullied and treated like a drone

2) Be fully prepared to walk and find a decent employer

Maybe, just maybe if they had any business sense they would realise that a happy employee leads to happy customers and a happy customer leads to profits. But they seem to have the formula back the front. Oh well, that is their choice and their loss!

Ash767:ok:

[Transition Layer]

I remember late last year an ad appeared in Aviation Trader for a "Multi Engine IFR charter pilot and instructor." No company name was provided, nor was any location other than a PO Box somewhere in Sydney.

It listed various min requirements, most of which I met so I sent off an application, thinking it was perhaps a new start-up at Bankstown.

I was then quite surprised to get a phonecall from XX at this mob offering me an interview. When I asked him about the "charter" side of things it was pretty clear there was some A1 bullsh1tting going on. I also asked him why he didn't name the company in the ad, or any more details, to which there was no response. I basically told him in the end that I didn't realise who I was applying to, and thus wasn't interested at all. If I had known it was them I wouldn't have touched it!

Angelseeker, good luck with whatever decision you make, but stay strong, if you decide to leave it will be rewarded down the track.

TL

[Woomera]

Angelseeker. Your alleged "...agreement waiving (your) rights to Work Cover and Super..." is irrelevant, worthless and meaningless. You are not a "contractor" and can not sign away your legislative rights as an employee. You are either a casual, part time or full time employee with Award entitlements and your employer is obliged by law to pay your workcover and employer superannuation contributions.

Please email or PM Woomera with details of the alleged "agreement".

I am intrigued with the comment:

"....and everyone has been banned from participating in the Prune debate on this or any other subject!"

Perhaps the organisation concerned - and I have no idea who that may be - would email [email protected] and confirm it is not impinging on it's employee's right to privacy and free speech?

The user who contact me by the "Report this post" function should be aware the return email address they gave is:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

UNDELIVERABLE MAIL

Your message to the following recipients cannot be delivered:

<[email protected]>:
<<< No such domain.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Woomera

[gajunkie]

Where is our regulatory authority at times like this?

[COLLIE]

Not necessarily a good thing for the likes of Angleseeker, but certainly a great step for the industry; looks like the offending business has lost the SAR contract!:ok:

[Dookie on Drums]

Is that right COLLIE?

I knew that it was inevitable for such a shady organisation but could you let us in on a bit more??

PM me if necessary :ok:

:E

[gyro gearloose]

The Chieftain only ever comes out of the hangar to do the required requalifying check and training anyway......
:suspect:

[Ash767]

Collie I did not hear that the business oops, I mean charity, has lost their SAR contract.

When do they cease SAR ops?

Ash767:ok:

[overboosted]

Story is that one of their own dobbed them in for cheating on the SAR roster with bodgy crew lists and nominating crew when they were not available.
They are seldom if ever called out now due to uncertainty about crews/quals/experience/availability. Major agencies (police) have stopped calling them out for various reasons.
No point having a contract if nobody is going to use you?:E

[Lisag]

Woomera I think we can add this Operator to the Illegal Practices list!
Angelseeker - know your worth and walk away.
Fiona Norris

[WINGED WONDER]

The operation mentioned ad nauseum in this thread from Wollongong today advertised in the Lake Times for new loadmasters and dropmasters required urgently! Appears all the regulars have had a gutfull and are deserting this scumming little operation in droves.:O
Now their problems escalate with even less experienced crews being expected to operate in the demanding Search and Rescue roles! Surely it's time someone stepped in and closed this scam from continuing any longer and before someone gets hurt?;)

[Ash767]

Thanks for the info overboosted!

Gee they must be :yuk: over the loss!

Yes I thinkl they have what it takes to be added to the list! i.e. we have all had to sign an agreement waiving our rights to Work Cover and Super

Ash767:ok:

[Sqwark Standby]

Can anyone tell me why the community/ratepayers on the south coast keep contributing to this mob when it is obvious that they are ripping off their employees?
Wollongong, Shellharbour, Kiama and Nowra all contribute money annually to this organisation which in a way, leads credence to their operations, when in reality, they are ripping of the community bigtime! Add to that that for the past 3 years, they have done less than 45% of their beach patrols due to a lack of funds and lost the Sydney beaches because the councils up that way could see little to no benefit in their operations!:(

[4SPOOLED]

You dont get super unless you earn over $450 per month, then it has to paid by the employer.

A casual is not entitled to super/holiday/sick pay e.t.c which is why they have a higher hourly rate to reflect that they do not qualify for these extras.

However if you have set hours, a roster that is the same on a weekly basis, you must be deemed part time, with the above benefits. If you work over 30 hours per week for longer than 3 months, you must be then deemed full time and be paid/ given conditions which reflect this.

Contractors are a differant kettle of fish all together and is a very grey area, however if you are treated like staff, wear the organisations logo, represent the company and not yourself, then you will then qualify for the casual/pt/ft classification.

I am a small business operator aswell as a s/cpl so i have been through all these countless times. However it is hard to classify exactly where you should be catagorised as state laws vary and there is always loopholes employers can abuse.

Wageline is the best place to consult, however you also dont want to ark up about it and get yourself an unfair reputation.

Best to walk in my opnion...

[Sqwark Standby]

The organisation in question here is very obvious to anyone knowing the dynamics of the Illawarra Airport; besides there is only one flying training organisation there so the field is reasonably limited in the guess-factors.
These pilots are required to wear a uniform (complete with gold bars and a distinct rank regime). For the most part, most of their pilots not only operate as instructional staff, but are also rostered as aircrew for their SAR roles with them maintaining a 24 hour roster system - in itself questionable from a F&D aspect especially when numbers are at a premium which appears to be most times.
Of major concern to me here is the waiving of WORKCOVER; Super is one thing BUT WORKCOVER is an entirely different issue all together. Get injured (or killed) at work and you could spend the rest of your life destitute because of a money-hungry organisation that couldn't give a hoot about their employees and is only interested in making more money for the select few who milk the public for all their worth! For years, well before their SAR functions came into being, this mob raised money for there shark patrol functions from right across Australia.......I am yet to find one example of a shark threat in Tamworth or Wagga Wagga; anyone who can think of one instance, please feel free to correct me!:*

[Dookie on Drums]

Can anyone confirm the rumour that their Partialaviator and 182 are both grounded in Moruya with time expired engines?? :uhoh:

Apparently they cannot afford new donks! :(

Also hearad that there could be a new SAR player to take over down there. :cool:

[Woomera]

Yes Fiona, the operator referred to in this thread appears to be this (http://www.aerialpatrol.com.au/) one.

Woomera

[J430]

Squawky..... Seems the Shark Patrols should be focussed on the land variety more than the marine variety. I am sure they exist at Illawara, Tamworth, Wagg Wagga or an aerodrme near you!

J:p

[pilotads]

people get away with this because most of GA has no or idea about an employment award and as a result employers can get away with slave labour. Something has to be done

if anyone knows of an award that covers us please let me know.


first jobs are hard to find people aren't just going to turn there backs on free hours at least

[overboosted]

Dookie;

Can't comment about the two aircraft you mention but one of their 152's is in for major heart surgery that they cannot pay for. They have effectively defaulted with nearly every major maintenance organisation in NSW over the past 10 years and are 'cash only' account holders with most aviation suppliers around the country due to their shocking credit history!:}

Woomera;

Your assumption is correct - interesting to note since this thread has been started, their websites have been very seriously edited and some of their outlandish claims have been removed or amended! (Too many enquiring eyes of late!) At least one good thing has come from all this; let's hope they can keep their honesty in check from here on in?

Angelseeker;

Any news on your particular issues concerning this mob?

[Angelseeker]

Thanks to everyone for their advice. :ok:

Unfortunately, if we want to work we have to agree to the terms, although this thread has caused them to hide their actions and threaten everyone/anyone who talks to the media or the like with instant dismissal. The management appears to be ducking for cover and have even tried to have the post ceased.

We have had subtle warnings about contributing to any posts that has negative feedback for the company, especially during working hours. The 2IC has been a little more direct with his warnings about.

On the other subject in relation to the SAR contract, the rumors appear to be correct and that at the end of the contract we will only have beach patrols to keep us busy during the summers to come. It’s a pity because if it was managed properly it would have been a worth while contract.

Like everyone else that passes through these doors to work, I too shall move on when the opportune time arrives.

[COLLIE]

There is more to this organization than meets the eyes…..

Seems the long running boss of this organization has upset an old student by slandering her and a family member of hers in a letter to the members of the board. The letter was distributed to all members, but one letter was accidentally mailed to the ex-student.

Result, not happy Jan!!!!!
:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

It’s hard enough to get a start in this fickle industry without been singled out by your school of learning!

I thought they only treated their long term employees that way, just ask each of the instructors/ pilots that were shoved to one side when the current CFI took the reigns. Grade one instructor (with no less then three renewals) that all of a sudden can’t pass a grade three! Ex-Chief Pilot that is bullied into leaving as not to pose a threat to the path the new CP is pathing!

It does appear that those students that learn at this place on the sunny (windy) south coast aren’t immune to the sharks that take their funds in the first place. Maybe, just maybe, the patrols should be conducted several more miles inland than the patrols that are currently conducted because there seems to be more sharks surfing the dirt in the Illawarra then surfing the waves!

:ouch:

[gyro gearloose]

Saw the CP/CFI being interviewed on the news tonight discussing a Catalina fly pass he is conducting in Canberra in a few days.

One wonders how long it is going to be before HARS is running under it's new banner...... Macccas Aerial Patrol and Old Aircraft Restoration.

:ok:

[PROPSWINGA]

Hey Buddy, despite all the information/advice given here, you still decided to take the job?:(
I appreciate the fact that we all want to work, but there has to be a limit on how often we sell our souls to the devil!
The GA industry in Australia WILL NEVER IMPROVE whilst we continue to allow scum operators to manipulate work conditions to the detriment of employees.
It now appears that yet another operator, this time rotary from Hoxton, is offering a job flying power/gas lines but the winner will be required to undertake 3 months probation on the job WITHOUT PAY! :mad:

[COLLIE]

Propswinga, I think the rotary organisation you mention is one that was previously based at Hoxton Park but now operates from Bankstown Airport.......:*

[YIPYIO]

The organisation which was the target of the original complaint in this thread, allegedly underpaying and ripping off staff pilots, have been spreading brouchures advertising another organisation known as NSWAir. Their brochure advertises scenic flights up and down the coast south to Jervis Bay and north to the Harbour Bridge however, be aware that this is the very same organisation hiding behind another label:( , employing (but not properly paying) the same pilots and the same tactics as before!

"You can paint a garbage bin; but it's still a garbage bin!

[raafboy26]

I initially learnt to fly at this organisation a few years ago.

I have to say, it was a dreadful experience.

The negative staff morale only impacted upon the students themselves.

I recall one instructor there most distinctly. As a reserved young person in very early stages of flight training, I remember flying the aircraft off the ground and being yelled and screamed at by this particular instructor on a frequent basis if I made a less than perfect manouvre during the 'lesson'. The guy would literally go berserk at me and I remember being concerned for my safety on more than one occasion. Once the lesson had completed and the C152 was back on the ground, he was totally calm and pleasant again.

As a really young guy, I found the experience seriously humiliating and at the time found myself too embarrassed to either tell my friends or family. I myself couldnt believe the conduct I was experiencing. Each time I put it down to the instructor having a bad day, but it kept getting progressively worse.

I look back at this type of bullying behaviour with absolute amazement, and concerned shock, considering my parents were paying ~$150 / hour for the experience. !

I can only sympathise with other people who have had difficulty with this organisation.

Fun times

[maxgrad]

For any newbee or indeed oldbee. It has been said before but I think worth saying again.
If you are a student...You are paying them for a service.. not happy? (Speak to them about it), vote with your feet if no joy!
If you are an employee...Same thing but don't take it out on the students.

[wylie_cyote]

Is the organisation mentioned in this thread the same organisation mentioned in the Illawarra Regional Airport thread about some scandal 10 years ago involving kids?

[Aquaboy]

wylie,

It is one and the same!

They had a name change a few years ago after the scandel broke and the ICAC came visiting! :\

One wonders how they survived the broadside, believed someone on the inside turned to save the organisation,
word had it that it was the IC!

:ok:

[kasey]

arial

I am suprised that no one has mentioned that this charter company was awarded the ground handling contract for qantaslink as per article in the Illawarra Mercury dated 6/6/05, and that all profits from this contract will be funnelled back to the parent (charity) company.

Funny thing also is the brochure advertising scenic flights to harbour bridge - now in the mercury dated 27/8/05 - now plan to launch tourist service to Harbour Bridge???. But they are awaiting council approval.

Noted in this thread that this charter company has only had 3 charters, since conception of the company, must not be doing any good, but then again they do have the qantaslink contract, that should prop them up a little.

[PROPSWINGA]

Kasey,
Why would they be awaiting council approval to conduct scenics to the Harbour Bridge? There is not one aspect of that operation that would require approval from council least of all, flights to Sydney and back???:\

[shortandsmelly]

but then again they do have the qantaslink contract, that should prop them up a little

From what I've heard the instructors down there who have to actually do said ground handling aren't too happy about it - more work than the extra pay's worth... :yuk:

[Ash767]

It has always been the same down there. I would say that, that mob (Aerial Patrol Charity, AKA Business) have successfully managed to p!ss off most people over the years at YWOL. It has got something to do with senior management (I have first hand experience of them ripping me off). The sooner they close down and someone with some business sense and morals comes along the better.

[PROPSWINGA]

There is a rumour doing the rounds at the moment that Workcover is conducting an investigation into the claims made by Angelseeker - anyone who can confirm/deny?

[gum boots]

Would this be the same GA company where the CP wheres not only 4 gold bars but some kind of sherrif or star as well... Whats the go with that.. what a w%$ker...

[PROPSWINGA]

Gumboots, they are one and the same!:*
The CP is a renowned w*@%er from way back and the 4 gold bars (and star) are to establish just who is in charge when crewing that high-tech C152! When you operate in such a demanding crew environment, I think it is essential that a clear deliniation of crew roles is obvious to avoid any possibility of confusion between operating crew, tech crew and cabin crew......I did mention he drives C152's didn't I?:E

[ASKARI]

I wonder what sort of deal the guys/gals doing the baggage handling for QantasLink are on? They would have to qualify for WorkCover and Super now surely?:E or are QantasLink not concerned that they could be lending credibility to an organisation that underpays/scams their employees in direct breech of the employment laws of this country?:mad:

Oh; maybe they could use some of the gold presently adorning the lofty shoulders of their CFI to pay the very people that keep the organisation afloat?:*

[COLLIE]

The illustrious HM was in the paper last Sunday begging the state government for $70,000 so they can resume patrolling the Sydney beaches. According to HM, a shark attack on the Sydney beaches is now imminent - is he genuinely suggesting that there hasn't been one in the past hundred years because of the Aerial Patrol? Well that's certainly the way it reads!
There is really only 1 shark trolling the south coast beaches and that's the GREAT GREY POINTER that flits around in the little black car me thinks!:E
For once, the State Government has made the RIGHT decision to stop wasting taxpayers money on this piece of crap organisation.

[turbolager]

I cant believe you poor Ozzy tax payers have to foot the bill for shark spotting from aircraft! What a ridiculous waste of money. Maybe they should get some ocean patrols going further out as well, watching out for tsunamis. How bout those box jellyfish up north? So thats what the australian submarines are for, the lucrative jellyfish spotting contracts :}

[raafboy26]

HM

this is what happens when your organisation treats people the way it has over the years.

now, be sure to keep us posted of the 'closing down' party.

cheers. ;)

[jazzycat]

HM this is what happens to a lovely organisation "What comes around goes around"

I cant wait for the closing down party.

[COLLIE]

This organisation has had one very bad week!
State Government has made it clear on no less han 3 occcasions that there will be NO GOVERNMENT FUNDING for the AP (last 8am today by member for Illawarra) although I don't think the AP has been informed yet. Seems the phone bill wasn't paid and the boys have had to use their private phones for work......oooops!:*
Anybody owed money should get in early.....believe the queue might be a long one!:\

[raafboy26]

What a laugh and a half re the phone bill.

If its got to that stage, i'd be bloody worried about safety issues.

:ugh:

[Mr snuffaluffagus]

I completed an instructor rating in the Sydney area not to long ago and near the end of the course our chief instructor sat us down and gave us the run down for job prospects in the area. At the end of the talk he stated that what ever we did, do not get a job with this mob, it wouldnt be good for us now or for future employment opportunities. The instructor giving this advice has been instructing for many years and knows his stuff.

[ASKARI]

HM is firmly on notice about the treatment/payment of his staffers. Little birdy tells that a Union is involved now and is interested in discussing the plight of the troops....would be interesting to see how he digs his way out of this hole?:mad: Also understand that Workcover has some concerns about certain aspects of the baggage handlers duties.....another hole me thinks!:*
Final comment: this mob has been crying poor and running to the State Government seeking funding for their shark patrols. Can anyone suggest one valid reason for conducting yesterdays patrols in a Partenavia when you have a C182 available??? Why didn't they just roll out the Chieftain?:uhoh:

[Flintstone]

Can anyone suggest one valid reason for conducting yesterdays patrols in a Partenavia....?

Used to do this out of Coolangatta many moons ago.

I don't know about the mob under discussion but we used to fly up and down the Gold Coast then up to the Sunshine Coast with some longish stretches out of glide range of land.

Even so would you really want to put down on a busy beach if your single donk quit?

[ASKARI]

Fred,

that's never been one of their considerations in the past 20 years of flying these patrols in a single?:\

[wylie_cyote]

Was doing some research last night and found this little gem:

http://www.nswair.com.au/

The website has numerous quotes like this one:
NSW Air Pty Ltd is one of the most respected charter service companies in the region.
The item then goes on to describe their available aircraft including Jets etc.

This company would be one of the most disrespected organisations in Australia and under the truth in advertising guidelines they have no right making these scandalous claims!:\

[overboosted]

Here we go again!

Wednesday 5th October 2005 – Lake Times Newspaper. (Illawarra NSW)

Front Page, half of Page 3 and the Editorial dedicated to the Patrol Funding Crisis presently confronting the Australian Aerial Patrol. The front page has the illustrious AAP GM, South Coast MP, a volunteer and the Shadow Police Minister.

GM is bleating that the AAP is at risk of having to cease its shark patrols along the south coast due to a lack of funding. (Fails to mention that the majority of those beaches are netted against sharks and that there has not been a shark attack on any of these beaches in yonks!). The articles drivels ad nauseum about how their services are integral to the safety of beach-goers and how recently they were called upon to search for a missing upturned boat. On the front page they claim; “The Search and Rescue service which the patrol provides is the only one of its type in Australia”.(???)

Now, there are more than a few issues that need addressing in these articles:
Firstly, The AAP purchased a flying training organisation about 8 years ago. The major portion of their justification for buying the business (as explained to the ACCC) was that they would be self-sufficient and would not need to rely upon handouts to carry on their work. So where DOES the money generated from the flying training school go?
They also trade as NSWAir Pty Ltd and according to their website(s), have all these wonderful aircraft and high-flying pilots conducting charters all over the place in turbo-props and jets, so where does all this money go?
They also have the baggage handling contract for the QantasLink services into the Illawarra, not an untidy sum I’m lead to believe, so where does THIS money go?
Secondly, the AAP is a Tier 1 Search and Rescue provider. When they are called out, THEY ARE PAID HANDSOMELY for their efforts. Where does this money go?
And Finally, four local councils contribute a huge chunk of ratepayers money annually to the AAP to conduct their shark patrol function, Shellharbour Council waivers their landing fees and returns their rent annually by way of a grant so where does this money go?
Surely it is time someone looked into this organisation? If they really are THAT strapped for cash (and the employee’s wages would indicate they are) then surely issues affecting safety might need looking at by the regulator and sooner rather than later maybe!?!

[Sqwark Standby]

“With a vast region that includes industry, commerce, education and Government facilities, Illawarra commuters are presently reliant on travelling to Sydney Airport to catch an aircraft to a destination.” Mr Gengos said “NSW AIR will provide Illawarra commuters with the flexibility to fly to any destination free from airline schedules from the Illawarra Regional Airport in Shellharbour”. “Time is critical and air charter is the answer for more effective commuting and minimising of productivity losses” Mr Gengos said. NSW AIR will offer a premium range of aircraft ranging from modern twin piston engine aircraft to the larger turbo prop and business jet aircraft with the convenience of transporting small or large numbers of commuters in one aircraft. Mr Gengos said “aircraft charter allows a Company to send a representative or sales team regionally or interstate quickly, comfortably and securely gaining valuable time with customers or colleagues”. NSW AIR has operated at the Illawarra Regional Airport since 1999 as a commercial flight training and scenic flight provider. Established by the Australian Aerial Patrol, the Company looks forward to providing this new service to Illawarra Companies and individuals. Warren Gengos heads the Company with a wealth of experience and knowledge having established and run airline RPT and Charter services nationwide.
Direct quote from the website mentioned a couple of posts back.....does anyone know which Nationwide Airline RPT and Charter services Mr WG established?:\ and could it be that they're using stealth turbo prop and jet aircraft for their operations?

[ASKARI]

Learned today that the push for state government funding for this mob is directly as a result of the workers seeking proper payment for the work they do!:ok:
Seems a few of the workers have joined a union and have commenced action against the AAP for proper pay and conditions and now their illustrious leaders are up to their proverbial necks in guarno!
GM has allegedly suggested that if the funding is not forthcoming (and soon) then they will have to significantly reduce their shark patrol functions which effectively means their sponsors/councils should look at significantly reducing their annual contributions in line with the level of service they are performing!
A well-positioned local has kindly offered to 'monitor' the level of services provided by this mob this coming summer and it will be interesting to see how the numbers stack up next year when they approach all the local councils for their annual handout of the community's money!:uhoh:

[shortandsmelly]

as a result of the workers seeking proper payment for the work they do!

GOOD ON YA GUYS!!!:ok:
Someone finally standing up for their rights.

[raafboy26]

on ya guys.

dont let hm get u down.

;)

[gum boots]

If you think back a few years this "charity" flew shar patrols every weekend and public holiday from the October long weekend to the Anzac long weekend in April (sometimes two aircraft a day) as well as flying hundreds of hours for the Police and other State angencies without a SAR contract and on less funding that is currently being injected to the "charity *cough pockets cough* and there was no problem or whining or long winded media bulls*^t.

How long will it be before the local media read this topic and ask the real questions rather then the blind stories of I saw a shark. When is the last time there was actual proof that the so called sharks were actually seen when they were spotted, theres never seems to be any photos or footage.

On the other hand I believe its congrats to the Chief Pilot for losing four SAR pilots last week, which makes it eight SAR pilots this year, he would go himself but nobody wants him. Surely AusSAR must counting the days till a real operator is looking after search and rescue on the east coast rather than wasting money on wannabees.

[Malfunction Junction]

Great to see someone finally taking a stand against some of the less-reputable operators in this industry!:ok:

Gum Boots; if your post is correct, and I have no doubt that it is, then surely it is time for CASA and AusSAR to get involved as they must be having one hell of time meeting the terms and conditions of the SAR contract and more importantly, there must now be genuine concerns for safety of operations issues?:uhoh:
Surely the CP can't be legally holding the fort on his own?

[Dookie on Drums]

Well done guys and girls!

I wonder if it would be worthwhile for any of the former staff to step up and offer whatever support or evidence they can?

I know a few of them and I am sure they would be VERY interested! :E

[overboosted]

Dookie,

I think that would be an excellent idea!:ok:

[Pitch and Break]

WOW!!!
Had a reasonably long talk with the young fella (new operations manager) who believes he has been anointed as the new GM for this mob. (Might work if he wasn’t still a wet-behind-the-ears kid!) He claimed that certain elements in the aviation community are trying to close the AAP down forever out of spite and jealousy!

Trouble with this whole concept is that this thread is all about people receiving a fair days pay for a fair days work – nothing else really! The site was commenced by one of their own seeking appropriate pay for work done and asking advice about achieving just this. From the ‘wins’ achieved by the baggage handlers so far, I’d say that ANGELSEEKER has done a damned fine job – WELL DONE! – but the work is not over yet. There are still issues about training backpay which need sorting but I believe this is due to come to a head in the next few weeks. (Next steps HAS to be to achieve fair pay and conditions for the PILOTS working in this organisation and maybe you can achieve a flow-on affect to other questionable organisations.)
Seems they have been telling QLink that there are no problems with workers pay and conditions although a little birdie tells me that QLink know everything already so I’d guess that someone’s credibility must be really shot by now! Also understand that every effort is being made to keep all the IR stuff away from the media – if that’s what it takes to make you clowns pay people fairly and correctly Mr M; THEN SO BE IT! (Consider it done!)
:E

[gum boots]

Apparently the CP is the SAR pilot 24/7 as well as flying instructor, charter pilot, ATO and fuel truck driver.

You would think as an X CASA regional officer and CP you would know your flight and duty limitations, but some people are just too good for that.

What are the old staff up to anyway. Last I heard CASA was rounding them up to ask questions???

[Dookie on Drums]

gum boots,

Some of the staff have found their way to QF, DJ and the Regionals. I am sure CASA would have a field day questioning them without a doubt :}

I know for a fact that most of them never got any Super even though it was listed on their pay slip :mad:

Authorities could really go to town with this mob :E

When the beers a'flowin"it's amazing what troubles pour out on the table :ugh:

[ASKARI]

Just had these posts brought to my attention.
Search for McRippy's posts.....

Quote: McRippy 26JUL04
____________________________________________________
but what ever you do always, i mean always question anyone who says you can get a PPL for under $3000 or if someone tells you about a cadetship also be very warry, although many are good but dont want to get started on that subject (if you dont know what they are do a search on these forums). so many flying schools want your money and they will promise you the world.what it comes down to if you want to be a commercial pilot. you will be on **** money for many years and bad conditions but never work for free and chicks dig pilots untill they find out how poor you are,to get that airline job you need a minimum of 500 hours command and the right attitude. so you will not do your training and go into an airline like many flying schools try to make you believe.


Quote: McRippy 16JUN04
___________________________________________________
if no one would flip burgers for less then $15 an hour (highly technical work) then why do f*%k heads fly planes for free
___________________________________________________

Interesting point here is that McRippy just happens to be the Junior Manager of the offending organisation! Who would be better positioned to comment on ripping off staff and pilots and who speaks so highly of THEIR organisation (although behind a supposedly anonymous handle??)
:\ Makes you wonder what makes some people tick?:uhoh:

[raafboy26]

old matey HM, please please control your staff
!!
;)

[gum boots]

I think the email is winnet.com.au and the young person you guy's are havin a go at is not true. Maybe you should commend him for standing up and not taking ****. i wish i had the greek pride in me

[ASKARI]

Hey Gumboots,
the chap referred to above is indeed one and the same!:*

[COLLIE]

Did anyone happen to catch how many zeros were on the cheque Little Johnny dropped off to the AAP last week? I think I missed it in the news;)

[PROPSWINGA]

Collie, the amount was all zeros....so many in fact, it even started with Zero!:ok:
HM has been seen courting the Libs lately (called "hedging") but sources confirm they are not interested in helping out now they know the truth.:\

[Pitch and Break]

Angelseeker, 2 questions if I may.
1. Did you eventually stay on with the Patrol?
and
2. What was the eventual outcome with the Union intervention on behalf of the Baggage Handlers?

[Angelseeker]

P&B,
I stayed with the organisation BUT there has been many changes made and the union has sorted out all (or most) of our stuff with the baggage contract. If HM does not comply, we are all walking off the job and they will be left in even bigger trouble than they have now. As Quantas only gave the contract for 1 year, we think it is likely that the service will end mid 2006 as it is not doing as well as everyone reckons. There is still a lot of trouble with the SAR contract and also it is unlikely that we will be involved in this work very soon too as they are not happy with the way everything has been done.
Anyone who thought this place was a bad place to work should pop in now.......it is 10 times worse!:ugh:

[Dookie on Drums]

Without reading the entirety of this post, I am aware of this operator through an aquantance who was employed with this organisation. I can assure you that what they are doing is illegal, which is not surprising considering that the general manager has a highly questionable financial background which includes several bankrupcy proceedings.

I believe several ex-staff are still trying to obtain their legal entitlements with respect to unpaid super (and leave). You are certainly in a difficult position and this a@#ehole operator is responsible for maintaining such a poor scurge on the GA industry. This is why they are referred to commonly as bottom feeders and will never ever be anything more than a small-time operation.... always trying to run with the bigger boys, but always falling way way short.

What is even more ironic is the package that this GM is rumoured to be on, which is a fully maintained company SS commodore (for private use as well) and an amazing salary. My friend, walk when you can and leave the dump behind and do no favours for this guy. He'd push his own grandmother over if he knew he could steal a penny from her - exactly what he is doing with you.....last pointer - check your hand after you shake his hand next time - you might find yourself a few fingers short!

As for the whole government funding issue, what a crock of garbage. An absolute waste of time what they do and a farce if ever I have heard one. What next - an alien patrol? Just too rich all things considered.

:yuk:

Signed: Friend of Dookies.

[ASKARI]

Shellharbour Council finally made a right decision about the airport last night. NSWAir (aka Aerial Patrol) had tendered for more facilities on the airport claiming that they had charter work and tourism work which would see them employing upwards of 16 people (there own words) in the near future!
Who do they really think they are kidding.....after over 12 months of operations they have managed to do 3 charters despite their claims that they have a Conquest and Light Jet aircraft online for charter ops (obviously hidden away somewhere cause no-one has seen them yet!)
The budding new apprentice arrived in full kit at council pleading their case claiming council should hand over their bright new facilities to this mob cause they are major employers in the area. Even reported that they have claimed to councillors that they have been paying above-award wages to staff/pilots! (Yeah right; maybe to one or two of the non-flying bosses but certainly not to the aircrew)
When does the lying and conning stop!?:\

[Dookie on Drums]

What a crock!! :mad:

ASKARI, this budding new apprentice you mention wouldn't go by the initials LK would he? If so he has probably been brain washed by the promises handed out by the GM there.

Above award wages?!:yuk: Just go ahead and ask the former staff exactly how much they earned!

:ugh:

[ASKARI]

Dookie on Drums,

Your assumption is quite correct!:( :* :* :* :ok:

[COLLIE]

Askari and Dookie,
There is one very sound reason why Boy Wonder appeared at the council meeting pleading their case for additional facilities on the airport. HM could not be seen to be slamming council as he remains dependent on their goodwill come 'annual handout time' and to upset the apple cart would be suicidal. Trouble is, council managed to get Boy Wonder to agree that the parent company was indeed the AAP so now the cat is out of the bag big time!:ok:
On the issue of the baggage handlers, the union is involved and letters have been forwarded to all those concerned from management and can you believe this claim in the letter:
all of these issues involve considerable time, disruption and cost to our business, however we feel that this is a process we must undertake to ensure that your rights and conditions of employment are protected. This is from the same organisation that has for years and years, underpaid their aircrew staff. Only hope now is that the pilots employed by this organisation get to see these letters and get themselves organised for a better deal too!:mad:

[jazzycat]

Collie,
Re the cat is out of the bag.

You may not have access to The Illawarra Mercury:

Here is part of the article that appeared in the mercury on Monday 6th, June 2005.

NSW AIR FLYING

CHARTER OFF AND RUNNING

If you though today marked only the start of passenger flights from the Illawarra to Melbourne you would be wrong.

It also marks the formal launch of a service for up to three passengers to Newcastle, Canberra, Albury, Bathurst, Moruya….in fact almost anywhere in Australia.

NSW Air, the charter service launched last year and owned by Australian Aerial Patrol, took delivery of a BE76 aircraft in April and will launch its fares today.

The charter company already caters for groups of up to 20 passengers and sees the QantasLink service not as competition, but as a significant boost to operations.

“This gives you the ability to determine your own schedule,” NSW Air business manager said. “The aircraft belongs to you for the whole day.”
The company has also won the contract to perform the baggage handling, check-in, marshalling and refuelling for QantasLink.

It will funnel all profits back to the aerial patrol, which is a community-funded service performing beach patrols and rescue services.

[ASKARI]

Appears the QantasLink baggage handlers have held a stop-working meeting two mornings ago in an effort to finally get a fair days pay. Here is a copy of the letter reportedly presented to each passenger seeking their patience whilst issues were discussed. Flight delayed for a few hours at considerable cost to QantasLink.

Quote:
___________________________________________________
Dear Customer,
The workers of NSWAir that perform this contract on behalf of QantasLink have attempted to negotiate fair pay and conditions with their employer for more than 3 months without any success.
The workers of NSWAir were put on an unfair contract in June 2005, the conditions of this unfair contract are,
3 weeks annual leave
No holiday loading
No shift allowance
No overtime payments
No wages paid for training – all employees trained for 4 weeks without pay
No first aid box for employees
The workers of NSWAir apologise for any inconveniences caused by this morning’s meeting.
The workers and their union are committed to serving the airline industry in the Illawarrra and are seeking your support to ensure a safe and a fair outcome for the workers of NSWAir.
____________________________________________________

Better get this mess sorted real quick otherwise the old Red Roo will be hop, hop hopping away real soon!

[Pitch and Break]

Jazzycat,

Quick Question(s)?

If the Aerial Patrol gets funds from:

NSWAir Charters and Airwork,
Baggage Handler contract,
Aerial Patrol Flight Training,
Shell Fuel outlet,
SAR contract for hours flown AND a standby rate,
telemarketting all of Australia for funds,
sponsorship from the golden arches and about 10 other local businesses,

and then doesn't pay landing fees for their ops and
gets their rent back in a lump sum annually,



how does this mob retain their charity status and have the front to put their hands out annually for handouts from all the local councils and state and federal governments? just for flying up and down the beaches every couple of days?

[raafboy26]

seriously, this is atrocious !!!

HM, pull your head in !

[CARDIA]

Larry, Curley and Barney all knew about the stop work meeting happening at the airport and called in all their chips to make sure it didn't hit the media!
Now is that power or what?:E

[COLLIE]

Sources say that QantasLink were not happy about this happening as they had been informed by management that there were no issues outstanding with the workers........seems someone has been telling the odd porky!:*
QantasLink knows that this issue could flow over to their 'other' workers and anyone who believes they are going to hang around and jeopardise their national ops for a few bums in seats out of this little backwater better think again! Talk is if the issues aren't settled r e a l quick, then the contract will go to someone who will do the right thing by their workers!:{
The real reason why HM is digging in and trying to screw the workers over through NSWAir is that they entered into the contract at such a low figure that they now are not generating sufficient funds to meet their obligations to the workers and the money is coming out of their pockets.......herein lies one very BIG issue; what element of Aerial Patrol funding is being channelled to NSWAir? AAP is a charity; NSWAir is not!:ok:
Time the ATO and ACCC took a close look at how this scam is structured and where does all this money really go?:ok:

[Pitch and Break]

The following quotes have been uplifted directly from the NSWAir Pty Ltd website:

NSW Air operates a wide range of aircraft ranging from light twin engine aircraft through to business jet aircraft.[/

On the issue of charters they claim:

NSW Air also specilises in Snow Tours to the Perisher Blue snowfields. Be whisked away in comfort and safety to the snowfields.

On Services they claim:

NSW Air is full service provider of aviation services. With extensive experience with government, corporate and emergency service personnel our team is able to provide you with the best quality service

NSWAir Pty Ltd is known to have conducted no more than 5 charters ] in 18 months since their launch. What right have they to make these scandalous claims of operating aircraft that they clearly don't and that they have extensive government, corporate and emergency services experience?

Perhaps Mr LK might like to enlighten us?
:mad:

[jazzycat]

Lets face it at the end of the day the council is the only the landlord of the airport, I believe that the baggage handlers took everyone by suprise with their stopwork meeting earlier this week.
This including the council.

[COLLIE]

The media might have missed the HM farce last week with the baggage handlers stop-work meeting but alas, it made the local papers today.......a day when IR was front page news right across the nation!:mad:
Betcha 10 to 1 that one HM from Wollongong is a major supporter of the new laws..........just a bit early with the implementation!:*

[raafboy26]

haha good call collie..

maybe we could suggest that HM be hired as the 'new face' of the federal government's IR ad campaign; .. in order to earn some extra funds for the 'charity' :yuk:

[megle2]

What do NSWAir actually operate on their AOC?