money

[wryly smiling]

Looking at forums for the autopilot minders and the cabin crew there seems to be alot of "discusion" about money,how do you feel about the amount you get as the people who sign the a/c serviceable

[Continuous Ignition]

I feel I'm horribly under paid!

I currently make about US $22.50 an hour, been with this company nearly 5 years and I'm the only staff Technician on the field. I don't have any support equiptment and even less in the way of parts.

I'm checked out on all three fleet types, wide and narrowbodys and do some sparky work when it comes up, yet I make less than our hanger guys who have dozens of others to help out when in a bind.

[Aerosexual]

This one is always a fire starter. As for myself, and this is my opinion only!!, I believe that in view of the responsibility that we as engineers have, we are well under-paided.
As for solutions to the problem, the only current solution I have be able to find is to get what you can out of an employer, and then move on to one that pays better.

Cheers ;)

[DoctorA300]

We as engineers have only our selves to blame for our low wages. I you look at our airborne counterparts, they all stick together,even across companies etc., when it comes to pay, and no pilot would fly as a contractor for a company that is under strike threat from that companys own pilots. Mayby it´s time for engineers to stop bitching and start acting.
Brgds
Doc

[Techman]

I am with the Doctor on this one. The only way is to gang up on the employers, just like the airborne ones do.
At present, with qualified engineers in short supply, putting our tools on the ground should make our bosses realize our true value.

[wryly smiling]

I agree with you all about the responsibility against pay issue I just wondered if it was a worldwide feeling or just in UK.Where I am there are people sat behind desks in the support areas on more than the certifying engineer.

[Diablo]

Always a can of worms. If you followed the saga of Redtail and his colleuges, you will see it is such a long and drawn out process. They eventually managed to get a good chunk of what they wanted (and rightly deserved) but with the dawning of less labour intensive/more reliable aircraft, JAR66 A licence engineers and more lenient MEL's, any industrial action in order to score a pay rise is going to hurt big time before it starts to hurt the airlines.

The last big one I can remember was BA back in the late 80's early 90's and they were out for 2 weeks with not that many cancelled services (correct me if i'm wrong).

I am well published in the fact that we should all join the engineers equivelent to BALPA and at the moment the ALAE seems the only real option. A lot say it has no teeth but the more people join the better it will be able to fight our cause. Looking at AirMechs salary survey £35k a year is a top end wage, it should be the norm for an LAME. I can't believe how companies are getting away with paying £18k for a rotary A&C.

If we had ledgislation from the CAA that required a proper minimum level of LAME support for a number of aircraft then the poor sods that end up running 2 C checks on there own in the same hangar wouldn't be put in those positions. This would force up wages, allow good quality engineers to progress and earn what they are worth, not what the airlines think they can get away with paying them.

I'm not going to hold my breath though we always moan but nothing ever happens. But there is always a first time!

[spannersatcx]

with the dawning of less labour intensive/more reliable aircraft show me I want to work on them.

[Penn Doff]

You already do my old mate, take the A340, thoroughly modern user friendly a/c :eek:

[cooltool]

Industrial action seems the only way to go.The Big Airways situation where "Management Engineers" were dragged from behind their desk to certify a/c would not happen again as JAR 66/145 requirements mean none of these guy's would be able to demonstrate valid approvals for the a/c types. Plus I don't think that the CAA need another captain hanging out the window senario (BAC1-11 incident)right now!

[DoctorA300]

Maybe the best way to drive up wages is not direct industrial action, but to start talking across borders. If we ALL stopped this ridiculous bikkering about whos license is worth more and so on, and utilize and embrase this JAR66 license so that we all hold the same qualifications we can start directly comparing salaries, and start working together from there. The end result can only be higher earnings, how much is up to us.
Brgd
Doc

[cooltool]

I agree with with the Doc on the solidarity issue but I'm afraid that there are always Engineers that would work IF any industrial action was taken.The percentage of pilots that would work in the same situation would be far lower. Most Airline & Maintenance companies know that we as a profession are not strong hence todays situation of difference in wages. Although I'm not keen on them a strong union like the pilots have is the only way to go. Modern aeroplanes are more reliable but they still need someone to certify them when they fall over the A licence mech can only sign for so much and cannot issue a CRS. MELs are not that generous when it relates to ETOPS a/c and nowadays the operators rely on that approval a lot as it affects many other things ie crewing hrs and sector times etc. As airlines get more a/c the only thing that limits them at the moment is not the number of flt crews it's only the number of qualified people available to look after them. Its not just LAME's that are thin on the ground most if not all compannies that support aircraft operations are desparately short of tech services staff. We hold the cards but we are not ready to use them.

[redtail]

I have to give my KLM counterparts in AMS a salute for having some rocks and being organized to improve their situation.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010728/l28238463_2.html

Just to remind you of what to shoot for, we're getting $33.49USD an hour for a five year line mechanic in the US, and $32.94USD for an overhaul mechanic, 40 hour work week.

You can get it if you really want it.

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: redtail ]

[FNQTech]

At the risk of upsetting the applecart, I have to ask "Have any of you actually been involved in protracted industrial action?" I was back in 1979. It took over 2 years for the pay increase achieved to make up the wages lost in achieving the increase (does that make sense?). I don't know about the rest of the engineering world, but I go to work for the money (paltry though it may be). I would be reluctant to take industrial action again unless the gain was substantially greater than the losses incurred.

[MacDoo]

Goodnight People (can't sleep)
looking at postings I can see that the money thing is an international snag for techies. If it's any comfort, the situation is no better over here in Paddy Land. The ALEA looks like a good plan, does anyone have a link to their website and are they a British only or international organisation?

[Blacksheep]

Actually diablo, the autopilot minders have finally given engineering a helping hand. In the past, careful use of the MEL enabled companies to hold out longer than engineers' slim bank balances. Those "lenient" MELs have recently become less lenient, at least under UK rules, at the insistence of the Operations types in the CAA, not the engineers. With MEL entries limited to 10 days, next time there is industrial action, the company involved will be less able to use the MEL to keep them flying.

But it is working conditions that interest me more than pay. Engineering and longevity are, it seems, incompatible, and its no use making loads of money if you don't live to enjoy it. The average engineer checks out in his sixties you know. :(

BTW wryly smiling, I drive a desk but over the years I've certified more work than you've had hot dinners. I get paid more than you because I'm more experienced, better qualified and worth more. So there! :D

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[cooltool]

I don't wish to appear millitant but by reading all the post here it is obvious why we never get anywhere. Most companies rely on the "Divide and Conquer" style of management because they know we never stick together. Its unfortunate that what makes us engineers in the first place also proves to be our downfall. We are all "Lets get the job done" and work our way around the problems. Also if truth be known we all enjoy chosen vocation. If you take a look at our european counterparts they all stick together and have Unions. They don't work on top of or out of the back of vans and enjoy on the most part good rest facilities. In this counrty some companies still expect engineers to furnish their crew rooms with what is found in skips or chucked out of the offices.In Europe they arrive at work in their civies and get changed in a locker room with shower areas that they can use before they go home.
Redtail used KLM as an example, they achieved something why not UK engineers !
By the way Blacksheep, the new time limits for items in the MEL's have been added because of the JAR OPS regs comming into force in or around september this year. :eek: :eek:

[KwikPhix]

Having been working as an unlicensed mechanic until recently I have to say that now I've managed to get my licence I am quite contented with my level of pay as a LAME. My company paid me exactly what it said it would pay me, when it said it would pay me as per my contract. They don't pay overtime though, not as if i would want to do it if they did.
As a side Question; does your company pay its unlicensed and licensed guys different rates for working shifts or unsociable hours.

[The Weasel]

FNQ Tech, you are right about not wanting to take action unless the gain outweighs the loss, but surely you must have heard this saying hundreds of times: 'If we worked to the procedures & manuals we would never get an aircraft out of the hangar'. Iv'e had that forced down my throat every time someone is trying to coax me to hurry the job along. So, all we have to do, is exactly what our company procedures demand, and our objective will be achieved. The added bonus is that we will be certifying a better standard of work, and possibly we will be command more respect from our managers, rather than at present, where some of us can be 'bought'with a promise of job & away and similar carrots designed to speed up the job by inducing a lowering of standards. Incredibly the term work to rule should be N/A to an industry so heavily reliant on compliance with procedures & manuals, but when this option was suggested to our union, the response was...'no chance, most people would not know what to do'. As loads of mechanics have just had procedural training to obtain LMA qualifications to beat the JAR 66 June deadline for the free-with-a-box-of- cornflakes A licence offer, now must surely be the best time to try this approach, before they all forget what they've been taught!

[avmech]

:mad: To add maybe somewhat to this discussion, it seems that after NWA technicians and their union the AMFA got a truly industry leading contract, AA and their union the TWU, were unable to leapfrog NWA. Even after having the trail blazed for them, they still returned an unsatisfactory agreement. They continue with b-scale wages and what they call SRP's as backshop support personnel at about $ 8.00 per hour less! The struggle is far from over here in the USA. One thing that we may be missing is the fact that the pilots are nearly all in one union of only pilots. Here in the US there are several industrial unions and one craft union representing various companies. What that boils down to, is that you can't get a group of ten guys to get a cup of coffee together, let alone stand up for proper wages and working conditions. No matter how any of you feel about what you are paid, do you think the pilots level of responsibility dictates a wage that is 2/3 to 4 times what the average technician/engineer is making? I didn't think so either!

[avmech]

for a pretty good idea of whats going on in the US aviation business check out www.the-mechanic.com (http://www.the-mechanic.com) go to the main bulletin board and see for your-selves!!!

[Firkin L]

The only way many engineers manage to take home a decent wage is to work excessive amounts of overtime on a regular basis. If our working hours were regulated, like the aircrew, companies would have to employ more licensed engineers which are generally in short supply. As you know this would then force up wages in an effort to retain people, resulting in better wages for less hours worked, better quality of life and above all improved safety. What do you think?

[wryly smiling]

Blacksheep
sorry to upset your delicate sensibilities but you were not the type of desk driver I was refering to.I was,in general,refering to the unqualified support staff that have no responsibility but are regarded as more useful by management.
I'm sure you are hugely qualified and hugely experienced but the "so there" was unnecessary :D

[the_fat_maintroller]

My feeling is that everbody getting 'section L licenses' in trades that they 'are not totally familliar' is not going to help the struggle, all of a sudden a shortage of avionic engineers is going to be a thing of the past, the figures of people holding the ticket will appear in the stat's and there will still be a shortage of well trained trade engineers, but a queue of people that can sign for the stuff!!!, I am a A+C and didn't take it on the priciple of thats a different trade one I will never feel confident to carry out purely from reading the Pallet book and a lot of past questions, and anybody that doesn't think the boundaries of what you can sign for isn't going to be extended is sadly mistaken, will there be any more dosh forthcoming.....the cheque will be in the post no doubt. Call me a mug but I would rather wait and let it settle and review the new system when they make up there mind. :confused:

[The Weasel]

Firkin L, you are of course right in theory about regulating hours worked. Where I work this regulation supposedly exists, but in reality, if a manager wants excessive O/T from 'selected' engineers, he simply fiddles the system to suit. The engineer is'nt going to complain cos he's getting lots of dosh at the expense of everyone else. The rest of us don't complain because nobody is listening anymore.

[trapper]

Time is right for a pay hike. Hear that pilots are considering forming an alliance for pay negotiations based on the alliances formed by the airlines (eg one world etc). Starting point for negotiations would be highest rate currently paid within the alliance, with raises based upon that. Have stated that if alliances can work in interest of the airline companies they can also work in the interest of the employees also (never forget that the guy at the top of most airlines is also normally an employee and doesnt own the company!!)

[Manual Start]

As they say in the states, "show me the money" $$$$$$$$
Or for you UK types, "DOSH"

It's Long overdue!

[Pen it off!]

Firkin L,

I AGREE WITH YOU IN PRINCIPLE BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT 'CAPPING' WORKING HOURS IS GOING TO DO TO YOUR EMPLOYER? IT MAY FORCE UP WAGES BUT IT WILL ALSO HIKE UP THE OVERALL OPERATING COSTS OF THE COMPANY I.E EMPLOYING EXTRA MANPOWER TO COVER THE SHIFTS / WORK THAT CANNOT BE COMPLETED, AS THE STAFF HAVE EXCEEDED THEIR 40 HOURS AND NOBODY IS LEFT TO FINISH THE CHECK.

IN REALITY, DUE TO THE JAR66 BALLS UP I THINK THAT EMPLOYING ENGINEERS MAY BECOME EVEN CHEAPER FOR A COMPANY. WHY? BECAUSE SOME OF THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ENGINEERS WHO I FEEL DO NOT HAVE THE SAME TECHNICAL EXPERTISE OR OVERALL ABILITIES OF THE ORIGINAL CAA / BCAR LICENSED ENGINEERS, WILL INFLUX THE MAINLAND UK ANSD SWAMP THE AIRLINE MARKET. I SAY THIS BECAUSE I FEEL THAT FOR SO LONG WE HAVE BEEN PUT TO THE TEST ON OUR LICENSE EXAMINATIONS AND TO BE COMPROMISED BY WHAT I FEEL IS LESS ADEQUATELY TRAINED ENGINEERS IS A LITTLE INSULTING, ESPECIALLY WHEN SOME OF THEM ARE ALLREADY OFFERING THEIR SERVICES FOR LESS MONEY.

[Techman]

I was wondering when the first "we are better than you lot" post would get here.

I guess the waiting is over.

I saw you also had a go at those "Europeans" on the JAR 66 thread.

You want ketchup with that chip?.

[Pen it off!]

TECHMAN,

IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF WHO'S BETTER THAN WHO, ANYONE IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THEIR LAST F!*# UP! IT WAS A RESPONSE TO A QUESTION OF MONEY AND THE FACT THAT WE ARE ALREADY EXPERIENCING A TIDE OF ENGINEERS OFFERING THE SAME LEVEL OF EXPERTISE WITH A LOWER PRICE TAG. THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE MONEY ISSUE WILL EVER BE PROPERLY RECOGNISED BY PERMANENT EMPLOYERS WHILST THERE IS A BARGAIN BASEMENT OF PEOPLE WANTING JOBS.

[146-fixer]

I agree,I think we all need to make a stand not just on pay but also working condition,engineer licensing,training and bring aircraft engineering in to the 21 centry.The only way this will happen is by us all working together.A good start would be to join a union like the ALAE.So now we have started to talk about it,what next? :confused:

[Pen it off!]

i'm with FNQTech on this one. i was involved in some industrial action issues at manchester back in the early 80's and beleive me id did no good for morale or pay. thetre was no substantial gains made out of it and more importantly the enginers only did it in fear of upsetting their mates if they didn't.

[DoctorA300]

Pen it Off,
Ifyou are so F&/&%G intelligent, you would have nothing to fear from us "europeans".
As for your comment about the "Tide" of JAR66 licenses invading your shores offering their services cheaper than you, I can inform you that I have been excluded from plenty of work in places that operated under CAA rules on the grounds that they could not endorse a Non CAA(Irish/English/Oz or Kiwi) license.
Currently I am working with 3 English contractors here in sweden, they are paid 24£ stg, I belive the current rate is about 28-30 £ stg, so who is undercutting who ?.
I am disapointed that I took the time to answer your post, but this is exactly the type of side_tracking BS that I wrote about in my first post, why don´t you join the JAR66 bandwagon, YOU should have no problems passing the exams, and then all of europe, if not the world lay at your feet.
Brgds
Doc

[GoodToGo!]

Hmmm.... I thought it was only us in Oz that have a problem with Cashola. It is sad to now know that the problem is worldwide. I think I might chuck the lot in and become a plumber...... :D
Oh, and by the way, 146-Fixer, may I suggest that to improve your personal 'Working Conditions' that you keep away from those mongrel things they call a '146'! :D :D
(At least you will hold onto your sanity a while longer!)

Cheers!

[balti king]

In order to increase our remuneration, we need to increase awareness of our status as professional engineers. We also need an organisation that has the teeth to back us. Whilst the ALAE are well intentioned and understand us because they are after all LAMEs, they do not appear to have the ability to create a major impact to the status quo. I am in a union that is v. big. They can ball about brotherhood and yours fraternally but they are not aware of the importance, credibility and eithos of what it means to be a LAME. But they do have teeth. So what are we left to choose?

An element of solidarity and accountability is required. Unfortunately, and this is not unique to our profession, there are varying grades of people out there; some are dubious characters that have fumbled through (good at taking exams, zero practical ability) and some might say even worse are those that do have the knowledge but write their own MM/MEL/SPM/WSPM/ANO.... and will dispatch an a/c without looking at it. We've also got the jobsworth who wants to do a C chk on a turnround. You all know what I'm talking about. Consistency.

And the problem is is that as a profession until we have consistency we will always we be equated to car mechanics. There is a moral responsibility of the CAA (and other NAAs) to make sure that we are promoted as professionals not only within the industry but also outside. We need to be treated as professionals, we need to behave as professionals and then we may be understood to be professionals. There can't be many industries where it's people cost so many £1000s to train and continually train and yet are looked down upon as disposable rubbish.

Finally, allow me to bring to your attention a news item from the BBC last year relating to the shortage of LAMEs. (Please use the link below). Has your position changed since then? I doubt it.

BK
:confused:

BBC News Online-Aircraft Engineer Shortage (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1072000/1072989.stm)

[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: balti king ]

[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: balti king ]

[Ali Crom]

there are varying grades of people out there; some are dubious characters that have fumbled through (good at taking exams, zero practical ability) and some might say even worse are those that do have the knowledge but write their own MM/MEL/SPM/WSPM/ANO.... and will dispatch an a/c without looking at it. We've also got the jobsworth who wants to do a C chk on a turnround
So I guess you work for the 'world's favorite' as well eh?

You are correct Balti , we're still not being paid more than pilots. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/boozer.gif

[mattp]

Sorry to plug, but I have read your comments here and would say that knowledge is your best ally when considering what else is out there.

At http://www.aviationjobsearch.com we currently get so many applications from pilots/first officers and flight crew, but although there are nearly 4 times as many engineering positions on the site - much less get applied for although to my mind many seem to be well paid and are also based worldwide.....so have a look and subscribe to the email job alert if you don't find what you are looking for straight away or even register your Cv online......free of course
http://www.aviationjobsearch.com

[Blacksheep]

Just checked out that BBC link above. Can anyone tell us which airlines are paying their engineers more then the pilots? Since they are so short I'll consider working for them.

100,000 a year. Two months holiday. Carpets, pot plants, fish tank and waitress service in the crew room. Hot baths and massage in the locker room. Oh, nearly forgot - First Class travel and the wife can accompany me on duty trips overseas. That will even the score a bit; although a company Beemer might be an added attraction not many of the two-winged master race aspire to those apart from the management tweeties that is. Any HR managers reading this just pop me a line at the e-mail address in my profile and join the queue. I'll get round to your application within a week or two... :D

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[balti king]

AliCrom,

Big Airways was one of my employers, but in my experience this is quite prevalent across the airline industry including my current employer.

BK

[Kwikfitter]

My advice,

Sell out, go and work for an oil company as an auditor.

Twice the money no hassle.

Why answer the b******t questions when you can ask them.

The CAA is not a bad scam either, resign after a few years and if you can afford it, JAR66 B1, B2 B whatever is yours and name your price.

Not sure about FAA but I'm sure Mickey will help.

Keep drinking heavily.