Easyjet; B737 or A319?

[The ghost]

What would be the best choice to make.

I am flying the 737 and got the offer to enter as SFO on the 737.

I also got offered to start on the A319 via the TRSS, obviously this would cost my a lot of money compared to entering directly on 737. £23000 pounds over 5 years + no salary till you start flying...

Would promotion be quicker when you're on the A319 compared to the 737? I understand that as copilot 737 you cannot become captain on A319... Obviously the 737 fleet is shrinking and the 319 fleet increasing...

Would you be able to go to the Airbus after the three years on the 737...

What is the present time to command once you meet the requirements?



Thanks!



;)

[Flying Quill]

I should join on the 737. You will have a standard contract, no loan, proper salary, and neglible bond. However, if you want to live near a particular base which is currently, or planned to be served by the Airbus then perhaps this will influence your choice.

You can always apply for a base transfer to an Airbus base, but then you will be bonded for three years. This is hardly going to be a financial penalty, though, unless you want to run off with your new rating!

I don't see why you would have to wait three years to convert since you shouldn't be bonded if you're entering with the 737 rating.

Not sure about command prospects for 737 FOs, but it's unlikely that they would be discriminated against. But, could be wrong...

FQ

[Wizofoz]

No, there is no discrimination regarding command whichever fleet you're on. Once qualified and recomended, you get offered whichever vacency comes up. Increasingly, a 737 FO will be offered an Airbus command, which will include the three year bond, though there have still been vacencies on the Boeing recently.

[The ghost]

Thanks a lot for the input!

I got the impression that as a 737 FO it was not possible to get a command on the Airbus. Of course a 737 command would be very nice as well, no doubt!

I think that a 737 direct entry as SFO is the best choice for me.

Can somebody explain to me how the holiday system works? You have 36 days, does that mean you could take let's say 3 times 3 weeks a year? Can you also take them as single days?

Any base that is best/worst for the 737? I guess best chance is to get based in Luton isn't it?

Is £2700 net a month what I can expect?


Thanks again!

;)

[Wizofoz]

ghosty,

IMHO, any base outside of London is pretty good. LPL,BRS,BFS or NCL have good route variety, -700 flying, and don't seem to work as hard as our London bretheren. EDN and GLA have mainly domestic routes and fly -300s. (One possible consideration is that the rumours have the Scottish bases changing to Airbus soon. If you are in a base that converts, there is no bond.)

As to how holidays work, well, this year they didn't!! There was an enormous c0ck-up with allocation. How it's supposed to work is that with the 5/4/5/2 pattern, you take 4 periods of 5 days off (so you get 11 days off in a row). we also have an optional exta 5 days as "Guarenteed days off" which in theory they then take back as extra work days. It is not the best system in the world, but is probably the only real down-side to the company.

Yes, that is a good estimate of income (possibly conservative during Summer).

It's not for everyone, but personally I'm very happy at EZY, and there aren't many better jobs on offer, particularly if a fairly quick upgrade is a priority.

Welcome!!

[The ghost]

Wizofoz,


thanks once more for your kind answers!

I have a few more for you...

The roster is 5/4/3/2. Is this fixed? Are all days 4 legs? How far ahead do you get your schedule? You fly 800-900 hours a year? Is everybody on the 737 flying both the Classic and the NG?

The loyalty bonus is going I understand. Is the profit sharing thing expected to bring the same kind of money?

What about a 13th month?

What about share options?

;)

[springbok449]

I would definately join on the 73, for the same reasons as posted above.
Why get yourself tangled in the TRSS scheme when you already have a current EZY type on your license?
If the base you join turns into an Airbus base after you joined it then you will get the rating free.
No descrimination as far as commands go, I echo the comments from above...again...
Good luck

[Scottie]

The Ghost.

The roster is 5/2/5/4 - always 5 days on, 5 earlies two days off, 5 lates 4 days off.

On your fifth late you are rostered to finish before midnight. However due to delays you can work up to 0130 into your day off without getting a new one. That can happen upto six time in the year. It has happened once to me. The first early always has to start 0600 Local or later.

Days can be 2, 4 or 6 legs depending on FTL and where you are based. Scottish and BFS bases do some six sector lates. On average expect two to three six sector days on your 5 lates. FTL's don't allow six sector earlies unless they are LPL-BFS....

You will not necessarilly fly both classic and NG depends where you are based. NCL, BRS and BFS are NG bases. EDI, GLA and EMA are classic bases and LTN and LPL are NG and classic bases.

The loyalty bonus has gone for copilots. Captains still get it and unless the pilots vote to get rid of it then it will stay. Don't listen to any management bull about it going. It ain't going unless we vote to get rid of it. They would like to implement profit share but we'd only vote for it if the profit share was better than the loyalty bonus.

No 13 month, this isn't Hong Kong!

Yes you get allocated shares. I think it is once a year. Also they have just introduced "Save as you earn" and buy as you earn. Save as you earn allows you to save up to £250 a month over a 3 year period. The share price has been fixed at £1.81 so at the end of three years you could potentially have saved £9000. Divide this by £1.81 and you'll have 4972 shares. At the moment the share price is around the £2.50 mark so thats a theoretical profit of 69p a share. This give a healthy £3400 profit. However the share price goes up and down so don't bank on it......

I enjoy it. It ain't the best place to work but neither is it the worst.

[The ghost]

Great stuff! Keep it coming!


So as I understand it, you can get twice a year a period of 20 days off.

And there are 5 GDO days you can take, but easyJet will take them again from your free days...

I have a paper saying the annual leave entitlement is 36 days comprising 20 working days, 8 weekend days and 8 days in lieu of public holidays.

Did this change with the 5/4/5/2 ?


;)

[Flying Quill]

Mmm, interesting, young Sir - if indeed you are a Sir.

You can apply for 4 blocks of 5 days leave. After these has been allocated you can apply for an additional 5 days leave called 'guaranteed days off'. You must take them as a block of 5 days and they will be recovered from your normal pattern. In other words, you will get your roster for a particular month and find that one week you are working 6 days instead of 5. There will be 5 such suprises until these RDOs are recovered. So, you only really get 20 days leave which you can book and call your own.

FQ

[orangetree]

If you have an EZY type on your licence and an ATPL, you should join as an SFO (non trss) regardless of whether or not you go on the Airbus. If this is still the case then go for Airbus. Its a much, much nicer day out and probably what you'll get your command on anyway. Or, go to NCL on the 73 and you'll get a free bus in a few months. I would doubt that Scotland will see buses for a fair while. BFS could do with them too, based on pax loads and performance on international routes but it's not on the horizon.

[Scottie]

Also by going TRSS you'll be on a reduced salary, it's about a £5k pay cut. This reduced TRSS salary applies whilst a Captain as well. So go 737!

Nobody knows where the Airbus will go next, I'd heard the Scottish bases were next but then who knows?! :ok:

[Slim20]

LPL,BRS,BFS or NCL have good route variety, -700 flying, and don't seem to work as hard as our London bretheren

I'd like to see that one backed up with hard facts! 90 hours / 50 sectors a month speak for themselves. Pretty daft claim from a part-timer.

ghost - please note that

1) The loyalty bonus is history as of October, regardless of what Scottie/Balpa members say. New entrants are already being told at interview that it is the case. The profit sharing scheme at its best (EZY exceeding projected profit by >£50m) will net the average pilot just £1000 annually. Compare that with the loss of 5% of salary annually and you get the picture.

2) Leave is 4 blocks of 5 on paper, but in reality at a lot of bases you will not get the 5 extra days as a block. In this case, it then defaults to just 3 days to be taken individually, and you have to work them back.

3) The TRSS is the poisoned chalice. Pay for your training, work at reduced salary and be bonded for 5 yrs. Fail the course at any point and you walk away with nothing except a massive loan repayment.

I urge you (if you do join), take the 737. Avoid the TRSS, you will get an airbus command anyway, if not in UK then certainly in Europe. But go into this with your eyes open - they want you to join at least cost to EZY with no regard for your wishes or circumstances. Take the best deal you can get now or you'll regret it later.

[Scottie]

1) The loyalty bonus is history as of October, regardless of what Scottie/Balpa members say. New entrants are already being told at interview that it is the case. The profit sharing scheme at its best (EZY exceeding projected profit by >£50m) will net the average pilot just £1000 annually. Compare that with the loss of 5% of salary annually and you get the picture.

So just how are they going to get rid of it slim20? It's part of out T&C and can only be voted away by us.

[Slim20]

Scottie don't be naive! You don't think we'll get a vote on the loyalty bonus itself? Look at the pattern over the last 4 years. Every major lifestyle change has been voted through because it formed part of a trade-off package of T&C's. (5/2/5/4 for loss of leave, crew food for reduced pay rise and reduced sector pay, over-60s rights for loss of F/O loyalty bonus, need I go on?)

I bet the loyalty bonus will be voted out by the members because it will be tied in with an attractive pay rise and/or a proper leave offer to replace the GDOs option. Most of our esteemed colleagues will find it hard to say no, especially as the CC will no doubt find many compelling reasons to accept the offer.

The company always gets what it wants - and right now it wants rid of the loyalty bonus. Bye-bye!

[Scottie]

Slim20, I see where you're coming from. I hope you're proved wrong in the nicest possible way of course :ok:

Maybe this could be the straw that breaks the camels back? :E

We need more members. Anyway this is thread creep - oops.

[The ghost]

So no TRSS then for me. That´s very clear!

The vacation thing is a bit disappointing. Meaning if you don´t get a 5 day block you are left with a good week of instead of 11 days!

So according to some the loyalty bonus is there to stay. Others say it´s gone, and again others say it´s going. According to the info I have from the 1st of October 2005 it will be replaced by a profit sharing scheme as agreed between easyJet and BALPA...

Going easy would mean i will lose some nice T&C´S including a 13th month and 6 weeks holiday a year. On the other hand I will gain a chance of a relatively quick promotion on a nice aircraft!


So what about the roster. Is it realy fixed 5-4-5-2? How far ahead do you get it? Any standby or available?

Anybody an idea on where it´s most likely to start as a direct entry fo on 737?


Highly appreciated everybody!


;)

[Khaosai]

Hi, if joining easyjet now with over 6000 hrs on boeing jets as F/O, can someone give me an approximate time to command. Rgds.

[Wizofoz]

According to the info I have from the 1st of October 2005 it will be replaced by a profit sharing scheme as agreed between easyJet and BALPA...

Hi ghosty,

There has been no agreement. Part of our last negotiations was that we would replace the loyalty bonus with a profit sharing scheme IF it could be negotiated and agreed by the majority vote. If we can not reach an agreement (and to the best of my knowledge there has been very little negotiation on it) or do not vote it in, the bonus stays.

As Slim 20 says, if an attractive enough deal is offered, it may be voted on. What I don't understand is his tone that somehow, if we agree to a deal that is more attractive than the bonus, it is to our dissadvantage.

Khaosia,

Do well in your checks, and I would say within 12 months.

[Flying Quill]

Roster pattern is rock solid outside your twice-yearly 'reserve period'. This is the new 3 week standby period that goes with the equally new 5/2,5/4 roster pattern. Everyone knows when their reserve period falls.

Rosters are published by the 17th of each month and emailed to your company email account (accessible from home). Rosters have been produced on time every month for almost two years - or at least that's the general claim. It's true in my case, anyway. Stability is determined by your base. My base enjoys almost 100% stability, others do not.

You could still see a standby out side your reserve periods. We also have 'contactables' which could be changed to a duty in advance. But once you've checked out the day before they essentially become days off since the company has to give at least 10 hours notice prior to a duty. This is not always the case though, but nearly always. 'Contactables' are given when there are surplus pilots (for whatever reason) and rostering wish to safeguard your duty hours.

It's not as bad it often sounds here on this website, though alot depends on your base.

FQ

[The ghost]

So roster published on the 17th for the next month, that's good!

What would you say are the best bases for 737 then Flying Quill?

How far ahead do you know you have the vacation period you asked for?


Thanks!

;)

[bloggs2]

Casper, the skinny one has it right, avoid TRSS like the plague. As far as 737 bases go, you won't find any that work much less than others, the northern bases are working just as hard as elsewhere.

Khaosai, the yellow brick road to command Wiz was referring to will take a bit longer than 12 months, i think he was referring to command recommendation (sorry wiz if i am wrong) which would be right with that sort of time on type. You won't see the LHS for around another 6 to 12 months after that, although it is always subject to change. So i would count on a minimum of 18 to 24 months RHS before clicking your heels and landing in the LHS at a base of someone elses choice (Kansas?, probably not)

Scottie, was there a vote on the F/O's loyalty bonus or did that just disappear? Genuine Q? as i wasn't around when it happened. Unfortunately i'm with the skinny guy, i reckon it'll (the bonus) just go regardless of what we the minions think. Fuel cost (gee i wish we hedged it!) competition, general hard times, whatever will be the excuse, and there will be fark all that we can do about it.

[Scottie]

There was a vote, it was based on an overall package as slim20 stated.

I didn't agree with it but that's democracy for you! The argument went that we'd all be Captains in a very short time and therefore we'd gain the loyalty bonus back. This was a very short sighted argument in my opinion as at some point the rate of commands has to slow which it now has.

In effect SFO/FO's who were on it are taking a 5% paycut as grandfather rights are finishing this year.

However there is a way to stop the loyalty bonus going for Captains and that's by joining BALPA and sticking together :ok:

However on this issue I could entirely understand the FO's giving two fingers to the Captains in regard to saving their Loyalty bonus.

But the only people responsible for losing it will be you the non members. By having decent membership we could tell them to stuff it and reinstitute the FO bonus.....

BALPA is the only show in town so maybe the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. I get my 1% back each year in pay rises and more, so will stick with them.

[bloggs2]

Thanks for the reply Scottie, pretty shortsighted view taken there. F/O's reaping the rewards now with TRSS, no bonus (or any reward for productivity/profit share) and if it goes, no bonus as a new captain with the only bonus on upgrade, a base in outer Mongolia with subsequent relocation/commuting costs whilst donating 10% of your wage for 6 months to the company. Whats not to like :ok:

Only reason i still hand over cash to Balpa is to have a say when the vote comes up at the end of the year!

However on this issue I could entirely understand the FO's giving two fingers to the Captains in regard to saving their Loyalty bonus.

Not a bad idea, must get a job organised somewhere else first though :yuk:

[springbok449]

Jeepers Scottie, you must be getting a percentage on the Balpa subscriptions...;)

[Scottie]

Springbok, I wish! seriosuly though I'm a firm believer in unions and just have to convince the rest!

But it seems to be like banging your head against a brick wall trying to convince you all!

Best of luck with pastures new. I'm a lifer :sad: so got to make it work.

[The ghost]

Is it true that there are plenty of people in the holding pool waiting for their upgrade, and that easyJet is still hiring Direct Enrty Captains?

;)

[Wizofoz]

Bloggsy,

Indeed, I meant time to get the ball rolling. The process does take some time after that.

Ghosty,

That is almost certainly true, simply because the training machine is working flet out and can't up-grade enough FOs.

[The ghost]

Hi Lore,

Talk to you later!


;)

[Slim20]

What I don't understand is his tone that somehow, if we agree to a deal that is more attractive than the bonus, it is to our dissadvantage

Wiz - this is the most obvious problem with the CC's attitude right now. It will become clear to you on reading the latest feedback questionnaire (which I'm guessing about 35% of members bother to return) that losing the loyalty bonus is probably the no 1 cause for concern.

If the company comes up with a cockamamie profit sharing scheme netting about £200 pa. per pilot, but it's mixed in with a fixed 4.5% payrise (over 2 years naturally) with an extra week's leave to replace GDOs, what the heck makes you think that will be better in the long term?

I have no doubt that future CC mailings on the subject will be driving that very line. I hope sufficient numbers of members see through it this time and give us a fighting chance at surviving a few more years under 5/2/5/4!.

[Right Way Up]

Can someone explain to me why we are told that our loyalty bonus is not sustainable to the company BUT we will not be disadvantaged by the new scheme. Not sure that in the real world both expectations can be resolved!
To answer Ghost, definately join on the 737. No silly TRSS tie-ups, and you have more chance impressing your command skills on an aircraft you know well. You will probably end up on the Bus soon enough anyway! Good luck on your decision.

[Capt.Paul Skinback]

Until Scottie started banging on about how great Balpa/CC is I agreed with pretty much all that was being said.They have been as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

Every year for the last 3 years that I've been at eJ the company has been allowed to erode the the T&C's of the pilot workforce. Each time we have had to compromise-this year we gave up up a weeks leave in order to to go onto the 5/4/5/2, the previous year to get a pay rise the F/O's had to give up their loyalty bonus and then when they got their Command hundreds of miles from home they go onto 90% of the skippers salary for the first 6months.

Only last week a pilot who was full of the joys of 5/4/5/2 during the 6 month trial @LTN and was down @our base(900hrs last 12mths Wizofoz!!!!) complaining how knackered he now was-DOH!! The company put in extra crew into LTN/EDI during that period to 'show' how great it was.

[Scottie]

Well Paul, perhaps if more of our colleagues had been in BALPA in the first place none of that would have happened.

You can't fight a big army with a small army. :{

PS I never said BALPA/CC were great. Please get your facts straight but then this is pprune isn't it :ok:

[Capt.Paul Skinback]

Scottie,

Beginning to wonder that if we did have 100% pilot membership whether it would make any difference to our constantly deteriorating T&C's. We'd still lie on our backs and get shafted.

Ps Sorry but ''I get my 1% back each year in pay rises and more'' sounds like a pretty personal recommendation to me.

Capt P.

[Scottie]

Until Scottie started banging on about how great Balpa/CC is

I'm satisfied that BALPA are doing the best in the given circumstance and yes I have seen my membership fees paid for by pay rises but the above is still not true.

As for having 100% membership I doubt we'll ever see it. In fact Im beginning to think all BALPA members should give themselves a 1% pay rise and see what happens.....Guess the 1% payrise would be short lived.....

[Slim20]

You can't fight a big army with a small army.

Scottie - I know you are trying to play it fair, but COME ON! If a small army has the big army by the balls then you can get through a heck of a lot of "negotiations".

There are usually about 50% of our pilots in BALPA. About 60% of them actually bother to vote/read bulletins and minutes, which means that potentially there are over 300 pilots who will respond positively to a form of industrial action. Say about 50 of them are flying 4 sectors on any given day due to varied roster groups, it gives a (conservative) potential of 100+ sectors out of the 600 daily which can be disrupted in some legal way.

How long do you think EZY would put up with one sixth of its sectors daily using 10% more fuel, 40-minute turnarounds due to security checks / walkrounds by the book, then losing crews through refusal of discretion etc?

The CC's real problem is its lack of imagination, and doesn't want to "throw the first stone". Well, sometimes its the Union's job to do just that - not roll over and take the shaft on behalf of the members!

[The ghost]

Ok guys,

enough is enough. The forum is about easyJet Airbus or Boeing, the question has been answered.

Everybody thank you for the fast and honest answers!

See you around!

[Kestrel_909]

Ghost,
Have you decided?

[The ghost]

And Boeing it will be!

;)

[Scottie]

Enjoy! You've joined the best fleet :ok:

Plus you'll probably get a free type rating on the 'bus within a year ;)