Wrong-way downwind joins

[FullyFlapped]

Imagine the scene. You enter the zone at some regional airfield with (say) the field to the North of you, and the runway in use is 36. Therefore, you are in effect positioned automatically for a straight-in to final approach.

However, this is a busy field (Class D), and there's no chance you'll be given a direct approach. Instead, ATC tell you to "join downwind right for runway 36" : which means you have to then fly parallel to the runway heading, wide, all the way up to the crosswind position, then a 180 turn inside onto downwind before turning base etc ... or does it ?

These joins are handed out at my regional airport frequently, and I've always just thought of it as something for ATC to do with the little guys while they get the jets in and out. Hey ho, it's more comfortable than orbiting, I guess. But am I actually doing the right thing ? In these circumstances, is there a prescribed place to actually "join" the downwind leg ? Is it at the crosswind end, or will the middle do ... ??

I appreciate this is hardly a vitally important topic, and that I could just ask ATC, but I'm bored this morning, so ...

FF :ok:

[Charlie32]

Sounds odd to me. At our Class D regional airfield and at most I have been to you would be asked to join (and if necessary hold) on right or left base.

Is there some noise abatement requirement or other local reason for not doing this?

[Superpilot]

Forget that, even if you were approaching a not so busy A/G radio type airfield and you were in a similar position, the instructor would expect you to carry out the full joining procedure even if it added 5-6 minutes to the landing time. Generally, I'd say as long as your opposite downwind leg is outside the ATZ there is no problem. Of course do so well above circuit height!

[Genghis the Engineer]

What's wrong with a deadside join?

G

[TheKentishFledgling]

Isn't this one of the many reasons we're taught overhead joins?

tKF

[englishal]

At a class D airfield, you do what ATC want you to do (within reason)......

[strake]

This is exactly the scenario you can be faced with at Duxford if approaching from the East for the westerly runway (24 ?). You can't join overhead (not allowed) and you can't descend deadside (isn't one) so you have to track parallel and then sort of 180 yourself onto downwind at about crosswind.....

You just have to be careful that you don't stray too far south into Stanstead.

Of course, if you had been given a "straight-in" because the circuit is clear then you wouldn't have to..but that's part of another thread:E :E

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

How can there not be a deadside? In this scenario, a deadside join would be the same as a downwind RH join for 18, but above circuit height, then descending crosswind to join downwind RH for 36 at circuit height?

SSD

[Genghis the Engineer]

There's no deadside when there are other operations on that side.

Old Sarum has no deadside in the week, due to Boscombe circuit being the other side.

Sywell has no deadside due to helicopter operations on the other side of the active runway.

I'm sure that there are others out there.

(N.B. For American pilots deadside = upwind).

G

[englishal]

And equally at many "bigger" class D airports, both sides may be in use at the same time....i.e. someone joining downwind RH for 26 at the same time as someone joining downwind for 26 LH.

Also, there may be a jet circuit at a higher altitude, EGHH for example have a turbojet circuit at 1500', so try an overhead join and you may meet a Falcon coming at you....;)

[Send Clowns]

I would request a join for base leg. Safer than flying against the traffic. Even wide is not always safe - you must have seen some of the "bomber-command" circuits from light aircraft! Here, as indicated, a join at the nearest corner of the circuit, or straight in subject to traffic if convenient, would always be offered.

[robin]

Send clowns

All very well at some of the larger fields. At Popham or Compton on a busy day, you'll just get the message 'Your discretion, but the circuit is very busy'

Barging in at base/finals is almost the worst thing to do when the circuit is very active as you will have no idea where everyone is.

Much safer to take your time and fit in with the traffic

[englishal]

Yes but here we're talking about:

However, this is a busy field (Class D),

;)

[Send Clowns]

Robin

In Class D must obey the controller, hence my comment about requesting. You can't truly request anything except information from the A/G or AFIS at a small airfield, as they have no right to clear you or prevent you doing as you decide is proper!

In those cases you put, with a busy circuit I would join overhead, quiet I would join as convenient, but I have a fair amount of experience - overhead is generally safer if anyone is in doubt at an uncontrolled airfield.

[FlyingForFun]

My first though would be to join in line with the upwind end of the runway - in other words, the same position from which you'd normally report "downwind".

But then my second thought is that if there is a reason for this, it's best to ask ATC. And if there isn't a reason, then ask (over the r/t) for a base join instead.

Then I had a third thought, which was that maybe an American style 45-degree join would comply with ATCs requirements, and would be quite neat? (It's worth pointing out, though, that the 45-degree join is actually illegal, since in the right hand circuit which ATC asked for it would involve a left turn. Still, this doesn't seem to bother the thousands of Americans who use it every day.)

I don't really know the answer, though. I'd be interested to hear the view of a controller at the airfield in question.

FFF
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[Spitoon]

Hard to say what the controller had in mind but an overhead join would seem to be the safest course. Could you ask for one and see what the controller comes back with?

[squibbler]

At our place (NW England Cat D Regional Airfield), anyone VFR inbound who is approaching from an upwind position joins "downwind", anyone approaching from a downmind position joins on "base leg".

Eg Westerly Ops 27 in use wind 300/10 (both left and right ccts always available - no deadside).

Join the CTR NW of the field - join right downwind
Join the CTR SE of the field - join left base.
Join the CTR E of the field - route north of the 27 final approach (follow the M62 in this case) until abeam base leg and then turn left to join right base.

Works very well, pass the relevant traffic info to all concerned and let them get on with it.

I personally would not want inbound traffic fly against the flow and trying to find a gap to turn back in, recipie for disaster if you ask me....

[airborne_artist]

Culdrose (twenty+ years ago, when there were operational and training RW and FW squadrons in number) had no deadside as it operated simultaneous R and L hand circuits. Sounds chaotic, but it worked fine, even with solo tyros with <20 RW hrs.

[Send Clowns]

Spitoon

There is really no point in an overhead join at an airport with class D zone. The tower should tell you of all relevant traffic, and you should not put yourself in conflict unless you are visual and can take responsibility for avoiding action. There is no signal square, so both the points of an overhead join are removed!

In fact it can be more dangerous, as crossing traffic often goes through at 2000', and can be less predictable than circuit traffic.

[vancouv]

Slightly off topic, but I visited an airfield the other day which was talking about deadside joins - this turned out to be what I had been taught as crosswind joins.

IE approach from the deadside, cross the runway over the upwind numbers (at circuit height), and turn onto downwind - are the 2 terms completely interchangeable? Or is there something slightly more subtle that I don't appreciate.

[Spitoon]

My dear Send Clowns, I have worked an aerodrome in Class D airspace for many years and, whilst you may not see any point in using an overhead join, I can assure you I have instructed many an aircraft to do one because it's the safest way to integrate it into the traffic flow. Granted it's not always a good idea, for example, if there's a jet rolling I don't want a light aircraft crossing the climb out at circuit height - and there are many other good reasons why an overhead join may be more trouble than it's worth. But that's my job as a controller - to look at the big picture. I mean no disrespect to any light aircraft pilots (I am one myself at times) but there have been too many occasions when passing traffic information has not been enough to prevent a potentially hazardous situation arising which I, as controller, then have to help to resolve.

In Class D in nice wx, yes the controller only has to pass traffic and not separate VFR aircraft but he or she also has to manage the overall flow of traffic within the airspace. This is why many controllers (although not all) provide more specific clearances than are necessary.

Slightly off topic I know but this perspective may well help to understand why joining instructions are issued the way they are. Why would the controller want an aircraft to go opposite direction to the downwind traffic I still don't know - the ony person who can tell is likely to be the controller.

So, FF, even if you're bored, if you want the answer, give the controller a call. Perhaps your controller simply believes that VFR flights get traffic and then sort themselves out!

vancouv, CAP 413 (Chapter 4 Page 32) now includes a description of the standard overhead join.

Speaking as a controller \'deadside\' join is not a term I\'m familiar with.
I think I would call what you describe a crosswind join.

Using the CAP 413 diagram, a crosswid join would be appropriate if you were approaching from the \'South\'. This would enable you to descend to circuit height as you near the field and to join the crosswind leg directly. By contrast, an overhead join would require you to stay at 2000ft or whatever, come to the overhead, fly to the North of the field and then to make a 180° turn starting your descent to circuit height around position 1 on the diagram.

Hope that helps!

[Send Clowns]

Ah, maybe I over-generalise. Certainly here at Bournemouth it would lead to awful confusion, as there is no dead side, and I have never known them to give overhead joins, I doubt they would allow it. It is an extremely busy airport, and GA operations are only kept smooth by tight control with very few aircraft ever crossing the extended centreline within the zone. They are very successful, few delays even for us puddle jumpers!

[md 600 driver]

quite a few airfield have say a left hand circuit for f/w and a r/h for rotary
sherburn is one of them it makes you hair on the back of your neck stand on end when a f/w pilot calls desending deadside when you are downwind in a rotary on the same side i often wonder if deadside means thats what going to happen to me or other rotarys

steve

[tmmorris]

Can I put in a good word for the standard military circuit pattern? You join at (and call) Initials (2nm from the threshold, slightly to the deadside of the extended centreline) and descend to hit circuit height abeam the threshold, still slightly to the deadside. This keeps you 1000ft above the traffic on finals at all points. Then you call deadside, track alongside the runway just on the deadside (giving you a grandstand view of what's going on on the runway); at the upwind end you turn crosswind (you won't hit someone just taking off, because you've been able to see the runway throughout this manoeuvre); then call downwind as usual. I'm not massively attached to the long curved finals - a square base and final would do fine - but up to that point I think it's unbeatable.

Tim

[DFC]

My reaction to such a clearance would be to remind the controller of my position.

I don't know of any controller who would require a VFR flight to fly past the airport and make a 180 degree turn to come back to almost where they were in the first place before turning base. Most ATC units use holding to delay traffic and everyone previously pointed out the dangers of going against the flow downwind.

If the traffic situation precluded a base leg join then I would expect to be given a zone entry clearance via a position that was appropriate to a downwind join. Anything else and then I expect that either I have made an error i.e. joined via the wrong VRP fro example or ATC have made an error and think I am somwhere else. Bothe situations require clarification rather than blind obedience.

Regards,

DFC

[JonWhitehouse]

When the rotary circuit is active at Wolverhampton, deadside joins are perfectly ok, but fixed wing are given a minimum height limit of 1300' QFE on deadside to avoid them! only after you've passed through the extended cetreline when turning crosswind can you descend to circuit height. I found this to work pretty well both when EGBO had ATC and in it's current AFIS state.
JW

[FullyFlapped]

DFC,

I don't know of any controller who would require a VFR flight to fly past the airport and make a 180 degree turn to come back to almost where they were in the first place before turning base.
Excuse me - are you implying that I'm making this up ?


Bothe situations require clarification rather than blind obedience.
I can assure you I'm not the sort to "blindly obey" anyone - and that includes those who abusively pontificate on forums such as this. My intention in asking the question was to see if I have any gaps in my knowledge before I discuss this with the (extremely professional) ATCOs at this field.

Being able to write constructively without implied criticism is a skill which some have obviously yet to learn ....

FF :*

[jamesharlow]

I think the best thing to do is, next time you find yourself at this airport, go to the control tower, knock on the door and ask them. Nothing is really standard in this country as we have a space issue.

[DFC]

Fully Flapped,

I can assure you I'm not the sort to "blindly obey" anyone

So what did ATC say when you tried to clarify the 'unusual' clearance?

Regards,

DFC

[Chilli Monster]

FF

I'm sure you're right, but so is DFC. I wouldn't dream of doing what is happening to you. If it is happening it sounds like there's pretty poor co-ordination going on between the radar and the tower controllers and it needs sorting out.

Definitely get in touch and ask why it's happening? They're not ogres who bite, and it's a reasonable question.