The Good Old Days!!!

[Sideshow Bob]

I was wondering around the Museum at Hendon the other day, amazed at the amount of stuff that was in service when I first joined up that has now made it’s way into the Museum. Seeing it all in one place got me thinking, where the good old days really as good as we make them out to be? Remember the days before high leg boots when we had to cut the top of our DMS boots to stop them ripping our ankles to shreds, then having to put on putties. We all go on about how good the old SLR rifle was, but remember just how heavy it was with a full mag and the bruise it would leave on your shoulder from the kick back. The days of power sets that never started and when they did they always tripped off-line. Endless days on Tacivals sat wearing one of those old respirators (Mk4?) with the really small eye-pieces and no drinking straw. The old tin hats that really hurt the top of your head, unless you had a woolly hat on as well. The 1 ½ mile run, ten times harder than today’s bleep test. It just makes you think, with all the nostalgia removed, where the good old days really that good?

[MSF]

Yeah - terrible days, RAFG , Deci, Kai Tak and Sek Kong, IAD and Hawaii.
More than 2 decent bases in the UK and St Mawgan!
Sure, the S6 didnt have a drinking straw, but you didnt need one in Hong Kong , or Goose Bay and Germany with its LOA , DF's cheap cars and everything else made up for it.
I would hate to be an airman now , knowing that MPN or AKT was about as overseas as you would get - and you have a snowballs chance in getting to AKT.
Oh how silly of me , I forgot the club 18-30 holiday in BSR and Afghanistan - let the good times roll !

[Thud_and_Blunder]

There's only <3oz/75 grams difference between an L1A1 and an L85A2 when they have a full mag on. Ever tried carrying an L85 any distance without a sling? Or fire it from the left shoulder?Only 5.56mm rifle I know that needs ballast in the foregrip to try to balance the bl**dy thing. The Steyr I was issued in Oman in 1983 was - and probably still is - streets ahead of the Enfield in everything except deliberate target accuracy.

Don't miss the DMS/puttees combination at all; the first high-boots to replace them were almost as bad, and had to be laced missing-out row 5 or 6 to stop inflicting damage on the instep.

There are airmen posts on Loan Service around the place, if you know where to look/ how to ask.

[CarPete]

We had a completely looney CO that insisted that we wear puttees over flying booots, never mind DMS!

He also insisted that Nomex Babygrows were not to be worn away from the hangars so nipping to and from mess etc, babygro off, standard rig on (do you remember KF shirts?) and then back again 10 minutes later, apparently didnn't want to encourage elitism, this while all the time, cooks were wandering round in whites (how unhygeinic is that?) Tank'ies walking around in tanksuits and Vehicle mechanics walking around in greasy overeall's

AAhhh happy days! I do miss them so (not)

Anyone else have looney tunes CO's - no names please!!

[Compass Call]

Thud_and_Blunder

I used the Steyer in Oman and it did was not as good as the 7.62 SLR at all. Short range, inaccurate and no stopping power.
One round from an SLR would knock over a camel easily but you would need at least half a mag with the Steyer, even with the long barrel! The Omanis liked it because it was lighter and easier to carry.

Give me range and stopping power any day.


CC

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Compass Call,

Quite agree - was on the March and Shoot team that did the Jebel Akhdar climb/ falling plate competition while SOAF were still carrying the FN. Our team was 2 blokes down for the shoot, but because the 7.62 knocked over anything it hit we still beat most of the army teams using the 5.56.

However, if you compare the Steyr to the L85, it's a better battlefield weapon all round IMHO. My latest SAF journal shows pics of the Omani team doing what Mike Jenvey says - beating all the other Service Rifle teams.

Oh, and those Omani suede DMS were like carpet slippers for comfort when compared to the Brit boots... :ok:

That looney CO of yours CarPete - was that around the time the Lynx ended up on the hangar roof at Hildesheim with the crew suffering horrific burn injuries?

[SASless]

Hard to beat the M-1 Garand for a shooting iron....the M-14 was a decent one....but my favorite has to be the Barrett in .50 Caliber. One can reach way out and touch someone. Talk about penetration....oh my word?

[Guern]

I always liked the .303" Lee enfield with brass butt-plate. But that was only as a space cadet so I didn't have to carry it too far!

I liked the SLR, never tried the SA80.

[M609]

Nothing beats the HK G3 rifle! Very accurate, and will fire in any condition.
Carrrying 8 mags in the west kinda make you weak in the knees, but.......

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Sat here listening to Coldplay X&Y wondering about the days when we used to feed everyone....duty supper and breakfast, in fact anyone on a station duty got fed.......free of charge:ok:

A fleet of vehicles from LSS at BZN used to set of for the baldricks mess at 3am to eat bacon and beans.....Those were the days:ok:

all spelling mistakes are 'df" alcohol induced

[Like This - Do That]

The Steyr / Austeyr F-88 has the wonderful 1.5X lense atop the weapon. Great until it rains, then you're onto the open 'battle' sights. Ecch! Hopeless.

Things that break on the Steyr like the cocking handle (plastic) didn't break on the L1A1. The L1A1 could be used half stripped, and was simpler to strip. L1A1 had fewer parts lying in a neat L-R manner on the clean dry hoochie in front of you :hmm: than the F-88. The whole 'inspect weapons' thing was simpler and safer with the L1A1, and the L1A1 safety catch was harder to accidently knock off than with the F-88. The L1A1 trigger was surrounded by a trigger guard, unlike the F-88 ... much safer.

Aussie drill with arms very pucker with L1A1 ... rather silly with F-88s slung over the shoulder like handbags (not that drill really counts :p )

But ..... as I never deployed with the F-88, or used it much on longer exercises, I don't think I can rubbish it. Most of the blokes seem to like the F-88 but naturally most of the newer blokes have never even seen an L1A1. And as previous posters have mentioned the markmanship improved dramatically, even I shot better, (miracle).

Now as for MAG58 vs M-60 .......

[airborne_artist]

We all go on about how good the old SLR rifle was, but remember just how heavy it was with a full mag and the bruise it would leave on your shoulder from the kick back.

But with a well-placed sliver of matchstick it could give a very quick double-tap with one trigger pull - excellent!

If you thought an SLR was heavy, try carrying a GPMG with ammunition for a couple of weeks - puts hairs on your chest, but keeps the natives' heads down!

Weapon of choice does have to be the m203 (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m203.htm) grenade launcher mounted on an M16.

[BEagle]

But there was nothing like the good old blunderbuss for scaring off the fuzzie-wuzzies with their sharpened guava halves. Fill it up with old nails and some black powder and fire it in their general direction - soon sent the bug.gers packing.....

Then came rather a revolutionary gun, sorry, 'weapon' in which the bullets, sorry, 'rounds' no longer had to be rammed down the barrel from the top, but could be shoved in at the other end - no more need for the flint and powder either, these new fangled things came with built-in bang! So it was good-byee to our faithful old 3-band smooth bore Enfield muskets and hello to the Martini-Henry breech-loader. And with a bit of cold steel attached to the end of the muzzle it was a dandy thing with which to keep Johnny Foreigner at bay - they didn't like that up 'em, they didn't!

[ORAC]

We shall not fear the Hottentot
because we have the Maxim
and he has not

Hilaire Belloc

[Maple 01]

The best thing about the SLR was that it made a great cricket bat or heavy hammer..........

Bring back the Bren....er I mean 'Light Machine Gun' :rolleyes:

Regiment getting upset at SAC Maple for saying 'no, it's a Bren' and pointing to 'Bren' crossed out on side of weapon, 1945 date stamp. Worth ten press-ups of anyone's money

Ahhh, MDF!

[Climebear]

If you thought an SLR was heavy, try carrying a GPMG with ammunition for a couple of weeks - puts hairs on your chest, but keeps the natives' heads down!

That or the 84mm MAW around. SLR was great and accurate however, a bugger to get out of a FV432 with in a hurry or scramble through mouseholes during FIBUA.

Anyone remember the days before green shirts were issued and we had to wear light blue shirts on exercise/gate guard. I remember a unit that a Scottish CO had insisted that ties were worn too.

Aaah and the experience of doing gate guard unarmed in No1s at BZN in the mid-80s (only 3 to man the gate) - not like the searchlane spectacular there is now.

[Echo 5]

Bob,

Movers didn't lose baggage in the good old days !! :)

[Circuit Basher]

Yep, the good old days (back in around 1973) - as a sprog cadet firing an inordinate number of rounds from a Lee Enfield Mk4 .303 on an outdoor gallery range, without ear defenders! Couldn't hear a damn thing for 2 weeks afterwards, due to the tinnitus!

[Hilife]

Never mind the bloody weapons, what about those lovely thin sausages you used to get for breakfast. Full of nothing I suspect, but boy do I miss them on a Sunday morning fry-up.

[ORAC]

Days when East Anglia was chocka with USAF F4s with a secondary AD role, about 350 I recall. Used to launch in 8 ships for their range slots and check in with Neatishead to do interecepts before or after their slot times. One as target, 7 as fighters. Preferred intercept was the 135 as they considered it gave the best compromise for a frontal shot then re-attack. Used to cover the screen with chinagraph taking the brief....

"Sir, run 1, Ratch 41 will be target, 2 will do a 135 flythrough, 3 will do a 180 flythrough, 4 will do a 135 reatttack, 5 will do a 135 flythrough, 6 will do a 120 reattack, 7 will do a 135 flythrough and 8 will do a 180 reattack."

"Run 2, Ratch 43 will be target, 1 will do a 180 flythrough........"

You could rack up 40 intercepts in 30 minutes, and all squeezed into CH between Great Yarmouth and the FIR boundary.

Then there were the days they did their equivalent of a survival scramble and flushed everything into the sky. A creeping mass of blips slowly obliterating the screen...

WT Lightning supersonics up and down the FIR boundary along UA37. Target subsonic at 50K+ above the civies, fighter at 1.6M on a 180 at 25K, turn under the civies on a long roll out and phone LATCC to confirm it was 5nm clear of their traffic then clear him to zoom climb and wait for the telephone call...

The days when the Russians actually came. Bear Bravos doing practise bomb runs against the Danish, Dutch and UK sites with a 16 ship gaggle of various battle flights, QRA and tankers taking photos of each other in formation and exchanging telephone numbers abd addresses where to send them. Phoning LATCC to advise them the aircraft 20 north heading south was at the same level as their traffic. Declining to coordinate as I was not controlling them and, when asked indignantly who was, replying, "I think it´s Moscow Centre"..

Happy days.

[tarbaby]

Steyres could'nt put a round through a Landrover skin, unless there was access to a long round. However I did have access to Thumrait's Remington 380. Virtually flat out to 800 yards, less kick than a 303 (they said it was worse, they hadn't fired one), great 'scope, outstanding!!
The house boss had an afternoon banging off with an M1. She enjoyed and was good-shooting wise.

[GeeRam]

Forget No.4's......the No.5 Jungle Carbine was/is the mutts nuts:ok:

[Widger]

Phoning LATCC to advise them the aircraft 20 north heading south was at the same level as their traffic. Declining to coordinate

Nothing has changed there then!

[shandyman]

Anyone at Brize in 87'ish during Taceval when SF mate did something unspeakable with fuelled VC10K and a thunderflash? Guard was beratted by CO and asked why he was seen running away from the incident and not toward the fully fuelled 10k and attached thunderflash!!

[Anton Meyer]

Yes, the good old days were better.

We had a RAF medical Service then, with hospitals all around the world providing high standards of care, even for aircrew.:{

[OFBSLF]

Now, the .303" with brass butt-plate - that did give a kick!!You think so? I'm not a fan of heavy recoiling rifles, but I don't think my No. 4 Mk I has that much recoil. The key is you MUST keep the butt stock tight against your shoulder. If you don't, then the rifle will accelerate before hitting your shoulder and it WILL hurt.

But the No. 4 Mk I rifle is rather heavy and the .303 is a bit down on energy compared to 7.62 Nato, IIRC. The No. 4 has very nice sights and a lovely, smooth, fast throw to the bolt. No Mauser-style action that I've used has ever matched the feel of the No. 4 bolt throw. Not all that accurate, however.

The FAL/SLR has a big following, but frankly the appeal escapes me. I've got one and I'm not a fan. The receiver is overly long, putting the handguard and balance point too far forward (unless you are built like a gorilla). It is easy to field strip. But I've jammed mine several times -- open up the gas port just a bit too much and the empty cartridge casings don't fully eject and get caught between the dust shroud and the bolt carrier. I've never particularly enjoyed kick the operating handle of a rifle to get it open...

I find the M14 balances much better for me and has better sights and a better trigger. I've also had better luck with the M14 magazines than FAL mags -- less likely to have the base plate fall off and dump the contents of the magazine at your feet.

Downsides of the M14 is that takedown is more complex and you have to clean from the muzzle. Also the safety lever for the M14 is not in so great a spot.

I've got a couple Garands. They're lovely rifles, but a bit heavier than the M14. Loading them is dodgy, though I've so far managed to avoid M1 thumb.

[Climebear]

Shandyman
Anyone at Brize in 87'ish during Taceval when SF mate did something unspeakable with fuelled VC10K and a thunderflash? Guard was beratted by CO and asked why he was seen running away from the incident and not toward the fully fuelled 10k and attached thunderflash!!

I was there as a young SAC AATC sitting in Brize Radar (aah those were the days of making ATIS recordings) local control watching the whole thing. Wondering if the crash bays would absorb the subsequent fireball before it engulfed the tower (and me). My how we laughed... not.

[Maple 01]

Remember a VC-10 in Germany in early 1990's being used as a film prop for some Hollywood blockbuster complete with USAF titles et al- producer storms around playing the 'big shot' chomping on cigar generally being an arrogant tw@t - then, when statically placed under the centre of aircraft attempts to light cigar.

Large aircrew mate appears as if by magic from nowhere, knocks penis extension from shocked luvvie's mouth and proceeds to tell him in no uncertain terms just how big a c*** he was being, what the consequences of his actions were, and what his chances of reproducing were if he repeated them......also threatened to take 'his' VC-10 away

Magic moment - Wasn't you BEags was it?

BTW Film went straight to video

Orac- If you got 40 runs in 30 mins wasn't that you finished for the month? I'll amend the 2128 appropriately......may have forged your sim totals for you in the past……

[BEagle]

Maple01, no,'twas not I!


Meedja luvvies are one stage worse than journos in the vicinity of aeroplanes!

[ORAC]

40 was the minimum, no maximum thankfully. A long time ago but I believe my highest monthly total was around 600..

[Maple 01]

40 live/40 Sim IIRC, and no good having 80 live and no sim, axminster shuffle before SLOPs. Never understood that!:confused:

[woptb]

What of the 'Mighty' SMG?

[Blacksheep]

All this talk of boots and rifles! In the good old days we had REAL weapons. Things so bright & beautiful, even those cool pilot sunglasses were no use and they had to put black-out curtains in the aircraft. Rifles were for playing with during our annual skive down at Bisley every year and boots were for wearing with seaboot socks out on the Line. The downside was the genuine grandad shirts - it took years for the collar stud scars to fade after we went to collar attached.

In't good old days we had holiday camps all over the world. Changi was particularly nice. Cheap beer, cheap fags, cheap food, and for the singlies, loads of cheap women. Hong Kong was interesting, over our side the bright lights and good life, over the border, Mau suits and the little red book. A kind of far eastern version of Berlin. Ah! Berlin! the sweet fraulines...

Malta made a nice detachment in January - not too hot but warm enough for shirt sleeves. Cyprus was OK except for the fighting-drunk Pongoes. Germany was of course a piss artist's dream but I remember the girls being exceptionally friendly too.

As ever there was the dread risk of Muharraq, Masirah, Sharjah or that ultimate in misery - Salalah. Khormaksar wasn't exactly a dream location either, towards the end, but it was an OK sort of place up until 1964.

But wherever Innesworth sent you, there was little danger of being shot at or bombed, as even Northern Ireland's "troubles" were still in the future.

Mini skirts and mascara - them really were't days, they surely were.! Sigh.... :ok:

[Gainesy]

Mini skirts and mascara
:uhoh:
:suspect:

[Onan the Clumsy]

he's reminiscing about when his legs looked good enough :p

[Pontius Navigator]

As for 'aircrew arming' pre SLP. We had every type of revolver you could imagine. Very good at bird scaring but little else. Standing at about the 10 yard point we were luck to hit any target let alone the one we were aiming at.

First 9mms we used to fire at 25 yards. Now that was impressive. Then they wanted us to get nice little groups and brought us in to 15 metres.

Me, I thought the nest place for all the bullets was downrange just as fast as I could pull the trigger.

[BEagle]

It must have come as a bit of a shock to you, Pontius, when they stopped putting the bullets in from the muzzle end?