Something mysterious in Snowdonia

[[email protected]]

There were lots of chaps (and I presume chapesses) having a great time in Robinsons various in Snowdonia today. We got airborne from Valley to a walker with a broken ankle/leg at the back of Snowdon and made a blind call on 121.5 to alert them to our presence. As a precaution we asked the ARCC to establish a TDA around the area and this was broadcast on 121.5 also. After we had landed back at Valley we talked to someone from the mountain flying party who asked what mysterious thing was happening at Snowdon. He also said that probably only one of the instructors was sharp enough to listen out on 121.5 - one out of 5 or 6!
A Temporary Danger Area is an airspace control measure used to protect situations from unwanted aerial activity and they are almost always established for overland SAROPs.
None of the helis in the area were any problem and I hope they enjoyed their flying (and probably a few beers afterwards), but I was surprised at the lack of understanding of TDAs and lack of monitoring of an emergency frequency. Please tell me this is not normal amongst GA pilots.

[SASless]

Crab,

Civilian aircraft usually do not have the ability to monitor Guard (121.5/243.0) frequencies as do military aircraft. It is not a normal practice to do so anywhere in the world that I know of. It would be a good practice but probably impractical for Robinsons which usually will have just the one radio. There are other frequencies that require monitoring for normal operations.

If a TDA is put into effect and one is out of touch for good reason....how would you know of it....and thus be able to comply with the restrictions.

We have a similar problem here in the States regarding TFR's...which can be called for any number of reasons. If you are out in the 'bush", it gets awfully hard to keep track of these things even if you have all the best of intentions.

Or....am I off base here?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Not current on UK Airspace regs, particularly those pertaining to what the Mil used to call the Snowdonia MFTA, but if it's class G or H airspace then not only do they not need to monitor 121.5, they probably don't even need to have a radio at all. Standard VFR see-and-avoid.

Fully open to correction if this airspace is classified differently of course.

[Gordy]

I agree, no requirement to monitor. However, if one sees military or SAR aircraft, you should switch through the various frequencies.

[slowrotor]

In the United States there is no requirement to monitor any particular frequency while in uncontrolled airspace. Most pilots monitor the local airport channel. For remote areas maybe 122.9 might get somebody.
Canada has (or had) a neat system where everybody monitored and chatted on 126.7, I think , so inflight help was easy. Been about 30 years or so since I crossed into Canada and with the hassles involved since 911 I doubt I will go again soon. But the common channel for calling anybody nearby seem like a good idea to me.

[codeman97867]

I fly for a helicopter logging company, obviously we don't use R22s ;) but we always monitor 121.5, granted that we are equiped with duplicate radios. However, when i was a flight instructor i always installed in my clients to always monitor that freq. when on long segments of CC flights, when not near a CTAF or tower.

Something to think about

Cody

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

There isn't a requirement to monitor 121.5 in the UK the only country I know who advise it is France.

I know who the company are who was operating there and I would have thought they were using a company frequency (This would make sense in regard to safety, Lots of helicopter close together on a mountain flying course)

This said it also makes sense if you see a military helicopter in close proximity in this type of situation to listen out on 121.5

[sycamore]

Crab, does the ARCC tell London/Scottish Information that a TDA has been set up(not Notamed), as most people would possibly be using that service,.? And don`t I recall there is a `remote site` frequency--122.95? that people should use? Syc..

[semirigid rotor]

crab: when setting up a TRA / TDA I normally inform the local ATC unit who maybe giving a flight information service to GA in the area, and follow it up with the paperwork later. But in class G airspace not everyone will be in receipt of such a service (due to a number of reasons), so do not expect everyone to get the message.

I fly for the police in the southern UK and it is not unusual for GA to join me (while orbiting an incident) to see what I'm looking at :uhoh:

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Well surely when operating in mountainous areas in the UK, it's advisable to be in contact with the local information frequency at all times? Surely this is basic advice for any pilot flying any machine?

[Sabre Zero 1]

Crab

Just for your info, there will be another mountain flying course (from a different flying school) operating in that area from Saturday 2nd July to Monday 4th July. There will be R22s, Jetrangers, Gazelles, H500s and Scouts as far as I know.

I'll see if I can get them to monitor 121.5 :ok:

[[email protected]]

I am a little surprised that any VHF radio installed in an aircraft nowadays does not allow the user to use one frequency whilst monitoring 121.5 - maybe I am just used to mil spec radios. Just for the sake of self preservation I would want to be able to receive important safety messages even if I am just bimbling around in class G airspace.
The guys on their heli detachment were using a company frequency known only to them but to their credit they had phoned Valley ops to notify them of the activity. Unfortunately for us, Valley ops shut up shop for the weekend and the info wasn't passed to us regarding the Saturday flying (an internal ****up that will be addressed). A notam or CANP would have been much better and then the whole world would have known they were there.
Since they were using a company frequency, they would not, unless they had a second radio, have been able to monitor any ATC - whether it be Canaerfon Radio (the closest and their refuel point) or London info; they would not know what was happening around them if they couldn't monitor guard.
Now, to put this in perspective, I am not at all worried about R22s around a SAROP in Snowdonia - we can all lookout and avoid each other but what about a major incident, whether it be terrorist or natural disaster? Any GA pilot could just drift into a very sensitive and potentially hazardous situation just because he didn't have the ability or desire to monitor an emergency frequency - it just doesn't seem good practise or airmanship to me.

[John Eacott]

Crab,

I'm surprised, that you are surprised! I can't think of a standard civvie VHF radio that is set up to monitor guard, nor anyone who does so as a matter of routine. The airlines tend to keep their third VHF on 121.5, but it gets misused as a result; almost like "Crab Common" ;) Most commercial GA helicopters would have 2 VHF's, but the second is more likely to be on a company frequency than on 121.5.

With Australia slowly dragging itself into the late 20th Century for airspace management, we're finding the issue of communication more of a problem. Last year some bright spark in Airservices Australia actually removed all the frequencies from VFR charts, because he/she/it decided that non IFR aircraft didn't need to know area frequencies as it would then clutter up the airwaves :rolleyes:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Likewise, I've not flown any light civvie aircraft in the UK with a radio that allows guard (or any other frequency) to be monitored in parallel with the working frequency. It is not uncommon practice for aircraft with two radios to monitor guard on the second (I certainly do on long hops), but by no means a published one.

In the area you mention there are other issues as well of-course. Firstly anybody operating below the peaks in a light fixed or rotary is likely to have at-best intermittent contact with any LARS provider. Secondly you can expect a lot of non-radio traffic: mainly paragliders, but potentially also hang-gliders, PPG and microlights - none of which are required to carry a radio, and in the first three categories the pilots were never required to pass either an airlaw or radio exam either.

So, I'd guess that the effect of a TDA, promulgated by radio, in Snowdonia, is probably what you saw - some subsequent gossip but very little effect on the actual traffic.

G

[Thomas coupling]

Crab: two things if I may:

I am your friendly neighbourhood police chopper. Down the road at Caernarfon is the north wales air ambulance. Between us we probably do around a 100 HEMS jobs into/out of the mountains, especially this time of year. We do training with all the MRT's we evn on the odd occasion do joint ops with yourselves in the hills! Other than the odd serious incident (plane crash, major rescue), we have never had the need for initiating a TDA????

Why did you initiate one for a broken ankle:confused: :confused:

All those pilots enjoying a day out around the most beautiful parts of the UK and you tell them to bugger off?
Massive overkill if you ask me.

Secondly - we don't even monitor 121x5!! Especially in the hills - no signal!! No-one else on it except london information above 3000' AMSL.
We always listen out on Caernarfon because of all the puddle jumpers with great success (all those wazzing the cafe at Snowdon are on Caernarfon freq.)
And we always listen out on Valley radar, for my best mates the fast jets (not).
We've got our own for you if we want to talk direct.
Civvies certainly don't listen out on 121x5 in them thar hills, I can guarantee that!

Sabre Zero 1 (fancy call sign!). Have you notam'd your movements for next week?
We would certainly expect to hear about your activities one way or another. Are you basing yourselves somewhere?
Give the police a call and they'll give you our landline number - give us a call? We have an op in the hills on the 2nd.
Don't bother with 121x5, listen out on valley frequency constantly.

[sandy helmet]

Excuse my ignorance here with CAA requirements for Public Transport helicopters, but I would assume that dual VHFs would have been one of them, so there shouldn't be a problem monitoring the emergency frequency.
When we were training we were taught that it was a good idea to monitor 121.5, as it is the frequency over which ELTs broadcast, especially when flying cross country and over hostile terrain.
Even when flying tours I have 121.5 selected on back up.
Another good reason to do so is that if your machine is fitted with an ELT, on shut down tune in to see if the G switch hasn't been inadvertantly activated - it will save valuable SAR resources from being wasted and you a red face when they show up at your hangar.

[Droopystop]

It seems to me that the TDA system as it stands does not work for short term SAROPS. How effective is VHF/UHF for warning of TDAs is of no use, especially for low level traffic in remote, hilly terrain? Robinsons are one thing, fast jets are quite another - I would be very surprised if there hasn't been a case of a military jets innocently busting TDAs.

Interested in the selection of 121.5, particularly as low level coverage is poor to the North and West of Manchester (according to the AIP). If I was aware of a Sea King on SAROPS in the vicinity, I would have chosen 123.1 to listen to on my solitary radio rather than 121.5. Obviously the scene of search frequency is no longer used.

Sandy,

Very few R22s are public transport - I have never seen an R22 with two radios. The R44s that I have flown which were public transport only had one radio. I think (and I am open to be corrected on this one) it is flight conditions ie IFR/VFR and airspace that dictates how many radios are carried.

[SASless]

Crab,

Why don't you get your outfit to provide you an opportunity to fly with the Police, EMS, and civilian operators out there in the real world....and see how things work outside your own small closed world. It might prove enlightening. Lots of other people fly helicopters and do so in a professional manner....and most of them are not SAR pilots. Maybe your outfit would benefit from that exchange....thinking outside that proverbial box works you know.

What provoked you to request a TDA for that flight....was it seeing the Robbies in the vicinity of your flight? Was the TDA Notam'ed....if so it would have been after the end of your flight and surely not during the flight itself one would think?

[Helinut]

I can only agree with most of the previous comments. 121.5 would be low on my list of priorities. If Valley was operational, that would be my first choice - otherwise I would go with Caernarfon, as the nearest operational ATC service. Even then, if I had only 1 comm box, these would get dropped for some company frequency for some of the time.

The reason that it would be low priority is that I woud not expect any transmissions I made on it to be received by a ground station, due to the terrain. I would expect to get more useful information about other traffic either from Valley (or even from Caernarfon).

In the hills, you would not expect reliable comms on any VHF frequency anyway, so see and avoid would be the watchword.

[helicopter-redeye]

Within the UK what would be the legal status of a TDA declared in this manner if it were not promulgated to the users of the airspace in which it was located in a manner where they could use it in their flight planning?

[SASless]

How could one be in violation of something you would have no way of knowing about due to the fact the government was not able to ensure all aircraft and pilots were able to access such notifications as were made and the government was unable to make contact with all air traffic then in-flight in the area?

If, as I understand it to be from earlier posts, there was no requirement of an aircraft to monitor any radio frequency for the area, then how could the government know all airborne traffic had been alerted? A collateral issue would be....how long is it from the time a pilot requests the issuance of a TDA does the appropriate authority actually act upon the request and then begin the notification process?

If a request for the creation of a TDA is sent....who is the proper authority to issue the TDA? Can a TDA be issued by a pilot on-scene or must it be a decision made by someone higher in the food chain rather than the on-scene pilot?

[headsethair]

We are on the fax list for when TDA/TRAs are set up. (I'm amazed this service isn't available by email.)
The most active areas for these suddenly appearing are northern England and Scotland.
It is not unusual to have 3 of these promulgated in a day. This fact alone made me inquisitive.....and as the notification contains no details of what the "emergency" is I've been investigating a few.
Most of them relate to SAR ops - and I'm not at all certain that a TDA set up in this fashion will achieve the aims of the unit making the request.
As for Wales this weekend, the party flying was led by a band of very experienced instructors who were all aware of the TDA. And the SAR unit were aware of the mountain flying because the instructors made contact as part of their planning.
So stop stirring up a non-existent problem! If you weren't aware of the mountain flyers, how come you flew low over their hotel landing site ???!!!!!!

[ShyTorque]

Crab, perhaps you are thinking of the "T/R+G" setting on your UHF/VHF box?

I concur with the other contributers in that as far as I know, this facility doesn't exist in the civvie world. Aircraft have either one VHF or two similar boxes, depending on their role / capability.

I think what you have highlighted is that the TDA is inadequate for an immediate and short term operation in Class G airspace. Even though we listen to 121.5 there is a good chance that we would miss a one-off broadcast because sod's law says we would be listening to another frequency at the time. (We normally DO revert to 121.5 for a "listen out" in transit on the "spare" box but only if we aren't already using it to talk to a minor airfield or listen to an ATIS etc, as we often need to do).

[cyclic]

Crab being an expert in all things aviation should know that the real point of the TDA for SAROps is to protect the SAR cab from the fast, pointy boys. If Crab thinks that a bunch of R22s are a threat to another helo then the four person Sea King crew needs to sharpen up their airmanship. As SASless quite rightly points out the ability to monitor guard on a V/UHF set is purely a military capability and I would have thought that a second box on the local LARS service (if available) would be more appropriate. Quite surprisingly, although the venerable old Sea King can monitor 121.5, it (mk3) does not have a second box and is therefore somewhat less capable than most commercial civilian helos despite it quite regularly flying in Class A airspace!?

As another person has already stated, this is Class G airspace and therefore open to one and all. If I was a SAR operator I would be more worried about the student flying his hawk than a mountain flyng course. The ambulance and police manage without this protection and are far more vulnerable than a big old Sea Queen and probably do more jobs than Valley do anyway.

The last time I issued a CANP, it was infringed by a military helo!

[ppng]

(With a very strong Mancunian accent - that's Manchester, UK to the rest of you.)
"You see the problem is, is that the problem, you see, is that MY problem is MUCH more important, I say is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than your problem - DO YOU SEE!"

[jayteeto]

Its ok preaching about the values of monitoring guard when you have mil spec radios that do it automatically. Even with our twin VHF fit, we are often flicking between boxes (fnarr fnarr!) to keep up with ATC. As mentioned earlier, you dont actually need ANY radio to fly in open FIR. When I can, I do, but that is a rare occurence. I would depend on a local ATC unit or London Information to pass the message.

[What Limits]

Crab,

Why do you establish a TDA for your SAROPS? Looking at my copy of DAP/AUS/202/Legal dated 24 March 2005, I see no mention of this.

I would suggest that TDAs are established for disasters to keep out snoopers and the press.

PM me if you would like to come and see what we do in the real world.

[delta3]

Hi,

I thought that my set automatically switched to 121.5. I based this on the listening out of a full may-day conversation between an air-france airbus that helped out getting a Piper that lost a window due to bird strike to land safely in the nearest location Abbeville, (a great job btw of the crew).

Or was I listening to a relaying , nowadays it is sometimes hard to know the difference (when listening out)

So my question, the standard King in R44, does it automitacally has a listening watch on 121.5 ?


Delta3

[oldbeefer]

Why on earth do you need a TDA in the MFTA - it's full of helicopters from places various every day. SARboys really need to get a life!

[helicopter-redeye]

So my question, the standard King in R44, does it automitacally has a listening watch on 121.5 ?

No

[SASless]

Crab must be off shift.....as evidenced by his absence here of late. Hopefully, when he comes back to work and can find time to set down the tea cup he will respond to some of the questions and invites offered in response to his original post that set off this thread. I know several of us are very interested in how he views the situation now.

It could also be he is doing some research to ensure he has the pukka gen this time.

[oldbeefer]

'Back off shift' - that'll be a fair while then!

[[email protected]]

Miaaooow pussycats - it takes a while to get back from N Wales to sunny Devon but here goes:

1. I mentioned in my post about perspective and that an R22 in Snowdonia doesn't worry me at all (airmanship and lookout and all that) so all those slagging me off for being too precious can wind their necks in a bit.

2. A TDA is regularly established for an overland SAROP primarily to keep fast jets from flying into helicopters (do the police and Air ambulance not wish they could gain protection from other traffic as well?) ARCC set one up as a matter of routine and not because we asked for it - I made blind calls on 121.5 because the first we knew of the heli activity was when Caenarfon Radio told us of it - he did not know the company frequency and none of the detachment aircraft were on Caernafon at the time. So, in a vague attempt at airmanship to warn them of our impending presence I used an international emergency (and airline chat) frequency.

3. I really didn't know that civvy radios do not have a TR+G facility and find it rather worrying - most sailors with a radio listen out on channel 16 in case of emergency so why don't pilots.

4. Headsethair - the bloke in the hotel (part of the det) was the one who said only one of the instructors would be sharp enough to monitor 121.5, not me. The instructors didn't contact the SAR flight to notify us, they contacted Valley Ops who are not the same thing - if you read my post I said a notam would have been the best option but this wasn't done. I don't have a beef with the detachment at all and I'm glad someone enjoyed seeing us.

5. I am constantly amused that so many operators don't see SAR as operating in the 'real world' just because we are military and not civvy, despite the fact that 95% of our jobs are rescuing civilians from non military situations.

I think everyone should monitor guard - it's there for a good reason and just because it might not be convenient to listen on it doesn't make it right.

[tu154]

Seeing the SAR crew in the hills and over the hotel topped off an incredible weekend. Thanks for the flypast and the general liason, it was good to know we weren't going to drop in on the big yellow machine over the next hill as I struggled with another pinnacle approach.
On the subject, the (public transport) R22 I flew didn't have the capability to monitor 121.5. Looks like a legislative issue as people just wont fit the machines with the capability unless required.

[[email protected]]

Tu154 - we would have liked to round off our weekend by joining you for the beer that was offered - maybe next time.

[whoateallthepies]

Crab
Protection would be nice but if UK air ambulances were to try and set up TDAs for every broken leg they went to, the country would be awash with red circles!

Generally the fast reaction time to attending these jobs means that it would be totally impractical to try and set up TDAs. They are reserved only for Major Incidents in the Police/HEMS world.

I agree that a civvy version of TR+G would be a great idea. Both of our VHFs are taken up with monitoring local frequencies. But it's class G and keep eyeballs out.

[[email protected]]

whoateallthepies - since no-one but the military seems to observe the TDAs then all the red circles in the world won't protect you (except from FJ) - this is my point. Surely every aviator has the responsibility to monitor the emergency frequency - if no one does it, who will ever hear your call for help if you are not talking to an ATC unit?
Imagine a major terrorist action along the lines of 9-11 but in class G airspace, all the emergency services launch into action trying their best to minimise loss of life and then someone in an R22 or Cessna 172 bimbles into the area, completely unaware of what is happening as he is not monitoring 121.5, and takes out a vital lifesaving or coordinating asset who was concentrating on a complex scenario with multiple radio inputs and, just for a second, had their lookout degraded by cockpit workload.
A not entirely impossible scenario, I would suggest, when all the air assets have their eyes on the ground assessing landing areas and likely casualties and the GA pilot is rubbernecking wondering where all the smoke is coming from.
The emergency services aircraft will be talking to each other on 123.1 (yes it is still used all the time) for airborne deconfliction plus any other tasking frequency so a TDA is the only way of protecting them from traffic extraneous to the operation. Unfortunately since the CAA and everyone else seems happy that we continue to ignore the civil emergency frequency and all its potential benefits, we had better hope that nothing bad happens in the future (ostrich syndrome).

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Surely every aviator has the responsibility to monitor the emergency frequency
..er, no - unless perhaps you are flying in somewhere like Germany where radio is mandatory. Boy, do they hate GA over there! Crab, you'd love it. Meanwhile, where you're operating in the UK, radio is optional in Class G. If MoD documents don't explain that adequately, take a look at a UK Air Pilot or whatever they call the AIP back home on the Mudbank.

[Droopystop]

Crab,

I think you are trying to push water up hill without a pump and your comments together with some you and your colleagues have made on other threads shows holes in your knowledge in civillian ways. There is nothing wrong in that - I never knew military radios constantly monitored guard.

One of the problems with 121.5 is that ppls used to be (and may be still are) taught that reception is poor below 2000' everywhere and very patchy north and west of Manchester. Now I have no idea how true this is, but it is a perception held by many.

To up grade every civillian radio to ones that monitor guard is a non starter without regulation and to be effective would have to include balloons, gliders, microlights, hanggliders and those parachutes with fans on. Not very practical. Remember that there are huge number of aviators who do not fly with a radio at all.

Unfortunately the current TDA system is flawed, I flew unwittingly through the TDA set up for the Hatfield rail disaster, but there is no way I could have known since it was within an hour of it being first NOTAMed (and I was completely unaware of the incident, so you can't accuse me of rubbernecking). Fast jets fly through TDAs set up for SAROPs - I have seen it happen. I am sure you or at least some of your colleagues have seen it too. We can all only do our best to avoid these areas, but when they are set up at short notice and there is no guarenteed means of communicating the information to airborne craft, then TDAs will get busted.

[SASless]

Lordy, How do we former military aviators ever get along in civvie street? No Guard feature....never monitor 121.5 or 243.0.....much less the HF freqs. And all that SAR traffic.....thousands of the things floggin around darting around the Robbies and Pipers....whats a guy to do I ask?

If it were as important as you think Crab....would not the civilian authorities have mandated a Guard feature on VHF radio equipment? Would not the AIP or equivalent mandate a listening watch on 121.5 and thus necessitate the Guard feature?

What is complicated here? You cruise up to the mountains to fetch a broken legged walker to the hospital....probably a flight that a HEMS bird could have handled unless there was some winching involved ....you see some other helicopters in your neighborhood....go to the trouble to demand they all un-ass your area.....and it is the civvie's that are un-professional and dangers to the military?

Do I want to make the legendary PAN call or even a Mayday on 121.5 and hope someone is listening....or on a frequency I am working or was working or one that I know someone is listening to? I would suggest the Guard freq's are a military thing in practice and not something civvies are going to use with any certainty.

I also note you put emphasis upon a TDA for over-land SAR flights....what about over-water SAR flights....you do TDA's for those too?

What protocol does your SAR Coordinator use to dispatch a HEMES aircraft vice a SAR bird?

[Thomas coupling]

Crab: Please don't dig any deeper - please!

Your comments on this forum wreak of naivity. You must remember that you are fully immersed in the military world (a most noble profession) and have very little understanding of civilian aviation. I know you THINK you know about civvy flying because you've tried time and time again to exert your perspective of civilian flying on many a previous post.

Listen up for once, OK:

Mickey mouse HEMS broken ankle and fingernail jobs do not a TDA make, not now, not never. Very few HEMS, rescues make for the calling of a TDA. This is because of the relationship between cause and effect:
Cause - broken leg on side of mountain.
Effect (if you call a TDA) - total disruption to all aviation for miles around.
They aren't worth it are they?

TDA's should only be used in anger if there is a genuine perceived threat to air/ground management in the area of disruption.

You flying around in your 10 ton banana coloured penis extension do not need a TDA to protect yourself from....what exactly????:confused:

I fly in the national park daily it is littered with GA, all of them on different frequencies, all of them taking off and landing, buzzing the park. In addition there are microlites, paragliders, radio controlled sites...need I go on.
It's called normal Class G air activity, like it or leave it but don't think because you fly with HM's roundel on the side of your a/c, that you can police the area with a big stick.............................
Leave that to us:E (joke ok!)

When you leave cotton wool club, you'll become an honourary member of the real world until then......don't burn tham thar bridges sunshine - you might need them to make a quiet retreat.

As for 121x5....enough has been said.

For the rest of us: don't tar the rest of the mil with the same brush, Crab's just a bit keen:p

[SASless]

Naive and a bit keen wasn't quite the descriptive words that sprung to mind....sorry.

[[email protected]]

I know I have hit a nerve when the only replies are of a childish and personal nature 'sticks and stones' etc.

TC - on another thread, other AA and police operators were worried about collecting a FJ up the exhaust - that is what a TDA should protect against but you don't want one. If a TDA prevents this then who cares if it disrupts aviation for mile around?
Mickey mouse HEMS jobs (your words not mine - nice view of your fellow operators) don't a TDA make - quite correct and if you bother to read my posts you will see that I haven't said it is necessary for a broken ankle in the hills - I am very happy with lookout.
No!!!!.... are there really people flying without radios in class G airspace - cor I never thought of that...........maybe we do have something to learn from the Germans.

Sasless - I think that the authorities should mandate 121.5 monitoring and that radios should be obligatory, whether in a helo, a microlight or a paraglider. I know that lots of Human rights campaigners and civil liberitarians will disagree but that is my viewpoint.
In Snowdonia, the Lake district and many other remotish areas of the UK, there is no-one to talk to at low level, even for FIS so , unless you have a company frequency and operate with other aircraft, your only hope of anyone hearing your mayday is to use 121.5 and hope that another passing aircraft (airliner probably or military) hears it and relays it - I would rather have that lifeline than not since the emergency services will be tasked immediately rather than waiting until you are overdue.
The ARCC, as you well know, does not control HEMS - it is only the tasking authority for SAR helos. If the call has come to them then it has often been through an ambulance control who have said 'non' due to the nature of the job.
The ARCC could set up a TDA for an overwater SAROP if they felt it was warranted.

There was nothing complicated about the broken ankle in Snowdonia so don't keep getting fixated on it - my thread was about 121.5 and TDAs and clearly most posters here don't agree with the need for either - that's your call, after all it's your ass on the line but just because it is inconvenient doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

Most keen amateur sailors bother to buy a radio and listen out on Channel 16, all professional users of the sea are mandated to have certain levels of RT and distress signalling including the monitoring of international distress frequencies. They do this because they know that if they shout for help, any nearby vessel is likely to hear them and is bound to assist and if there are any urgent navigation or weather warnings they will be broadcast accordingly. It is self protection and mutual support but it seems that is not what the aviation community wants because they baulk at having to spend a few quid on a decent/second radio.

[rotorboy]

Crab,
I have 2 VHF and 2 FM in the a/c. Most of the the time I am too busy to tune to 121.5. If I am going a long ways on a x/c I'll listen. But GA CTA airspace and Air to Air Vctor take the priority.

What is intersting is that the US Foreast and Park Service require and FM air Guard freq on all contract aircraft. This has come in handy a bunch. For example: You arrive on scence for a resuce or a fire and the ranger or the fire crew does not have the air to ground fm , they can always come up on the Guard freq that overides the the fm and make contact, then switch.

RB

[Max Contingency]

As I bimble around the UK in either a non-radio or single VHF radio fitted aircraft, I am blissfully unaware of the presence of TDAs and SAR Operations. Unless the ATC unit I am in contact with decides that the TDA is within its patch and decides to rebro the information. Outside of that big sky/little aircraft theory prevails.

A TDA protects a SAR aircraft from military flight only as the SAR crewmay be degraded in lookout (all eyes searching) or unable to manouvre (200 feet of rope out with a hero swinging underneath)

According to the DAS publication, As a non-military pilot I am not required to avoid a TDA unless the person with responsibility for the administration of that TDA specifically requests me to leave where upon it becomes a legal requirement.

If the SAR Operation requires complete sterilisation of airspace then the emergency co-ordinating authority should instigate a TRA.

[md 600 driver]

crab

as a non commercial civil pilot over 2000hrs time i can honestly say i have never heard of guard or any need to switch to 121.5 at any time unless in a EMERGENCY

i would also add that if pilots used there one and only com to switch to 121.5 you would get a lot of mistaken calls as lots of pilots forget to change freq after changing from one tower to another especially student pilots and some xperienced ones too

would you send out sar to a pilot who has a stuck ptt or who keeps sending a carrier but no speech or you cant hear him properley because he is on the ground asking for infomation using the wrong freq.

i agree that a standard com freq like in the usa may be a better way for all of us to contact each other but thats not the caa way
we have uhf for mil vhf for civvy, maybe the reason you listen in to 121.5 is that you use uhf for your standard coms and you have spare vhf not being used

there is no legal requirement in uncontrolled airpace to have a com

quote
It is self protection and mutual support but it seems that is not what the aviation community wants because they baulk at having to spend a few quid on a decent/second radio.

a second radio for a boat is a few hundred pounds a second com installed in a aircraft cost at least £3,000 some times much more


steve

[SilsoeSid]

In reference to md 600 driver saying, "I would also add that if pilots used there one and only com to switch to 121.5 you would get a lot of mistaken calls.."

Since the world’s search-and-rescue coordinators plan to stop monitoring both 121.5 MHz and 243 MHz on February 1 2009 because of the increase in false calls, why does crab think that pilots on a budget are going to fork out on an expensive receiver, UHF or VHF', that in a 'low level' or geographically unsuitable environment will be as much use as laxative bath salts!

(121.5MHz will remain the aircraft emergency distress frequency and therefore will continue to be used as a homing signal by 406MHz and MOB Beacons for search and rescue aircraft and surface vessels.)

I think Max Contingency covers this thread nicely.

In the meantime, perhaps the CAA could with initial licence issue, include a set of these
http://www.mrmoto.co.uk/acatalog/pbh_loptofflugshumansmall.jpg
for those without the extra radio fit in order to hear crabs whining and know when to stay away!

[[email protected]]

Max con - but if no-one is listening on 121.5 in class G airspace wihout an ATC service, how will they know that a TRA has been setup?

MD600 - if you listen to 121.5 you will hear airline crews inadvertantly transmitting on it all the time but we don't launch for them so why should we for a stuck PTT. If you call for help on 121.5 in an EMERGENCY you hope someone is listening - if everyone monitored 121.5 then you would have a greatly increased chance of being heard.
Since most aircraft cost a lot more than a boat and an engine failure or other malfunction is usually more serious in an aircraft than a boat, the extra cost of the radio is probably worth it - unless you subscribe to the big sky/it'll never happen to me theory. No-one goes out with the intention of having a RTA but they still occur every day.

SS - you are not quite correct - the SARSAT/COSPAS satellite system will stop monitoring 243 and 121.5 because of many false alarms (beacon hits) and the fact that 406 beacons are becoming more prevalent and are a. registered and b. able to send a GPS position as part of the distress message. 121.5 will still be the VHF emergency freq should anyone be bothered to use it and most 406 beacons will have a 121.5 capability built in.
If all aircraft had 121.5 monitoring then the laxative bath salts would be much more likely to produce results even in the low level or geographically unsuitable environments.
Maybe ATC should stop monitoring 121.5 since it clearly is of no use.

[puntosaurus]

I went on a tour at London Centre D&D at West Drayton a couple of weeks back, and they have quite comprehensive monitoring and triangulation facilities for 121.5 across the whole country. They also have landlines to all the major ATC units so if they need to warn off GA traffic from a specific area, they can do so with ease.

I've done several 'practice PANs' over the years which show how effective they are, although I had to laugh on one occasion, where amidst the sound of tumbling coffee cups I was directed to leavesden (in a fixed wing) about five years after it had shut !

I'm not sure how much added benefit GA monitoring of the frequency would provide.

[[email protected]]

So we keep coming back to square 1 - if you are not in reciept of an ATC service due to altitude/location and not listening on 121.5 then you can't know what is happening if D&D do try to set up a TRA or broadcast securite messages.

[SASless]

If one is so low as to not be able to receive VHF line of sight transmissions from ATC....what good is monitoring 121.5 going to do you......if you are blanked by terrain and miss the call....you have missed the call.

Accept it Crab....it ain't a perfect world out here.

Clear up a misconception I might have. You said the broken ankle call that started all this was not a flight that required special SAR procedures and that a HEMS aircraft could have done the mission....is that correct?

If so...why did not your SAR coordinator turn down that request and refer it to either the Police or HEMS outfit nearest the scene and thus retain a SAR asset for possible calls that would require SAR capability?

[Oogle]

Hey you guys - stop being so hard on Crab. Don't turn this into military bashing.

Firstly, ANY Comm can receive 121.5. If yours can't, take it back for a refund. Whether you decide to listen to it is another matter. I myself do so as a matter of course. I have always taught the less experienced pilots that I have flown with (assumming there are 2 comms) to listen to 121.5 and just use the other radio for all transmissions. If things get busy then ditch the 121.5 and tune to whatever you like but go back to 121.5 when you no longer need the second comm.

I have actually monitored two EPIRBs of people in distress because I was in the area (and subsequently rescued them).

Don't understand the need for a TDA though. Go in, get 'em and then get out.

BTW, I am civilian pilot.:E

[Thomas coupling]

Crab: remind me again, why did you request a TDA?


99% of all GA would, given the choice, talk to a local airfield / ATC. They do this from a professional perspective [ClassG I'm talking about].
Those who can't, don't, because of the lie of the land. If that was the case, then 121x5 would be useless too wouldn't it? As mentioned above.

How long have you got before you 'come out' :suspect:

[Droopystop]

Hey Crab, make up your mind, TDAs or TRAs. The bottom line is that short term TDAs do not work because VHF by its very nature is unsuitable for comms in remote hilly regions. TRAs tend to be more long term with extended plannig eg for Red Arrows displays etc and therefore can be notamed in advanced. As far as I can work out TRAs are only set up for SAROPs for long term searches.

[SilsoeSid]

crab,

Sorry, I don't understand your reply to my last post.

You said that "If all aircraft had 121.5 monitoring then the laxative bath salts would be much more likely to produce results even in the low level or geographically unsuitable environments."

Does that mean that if all aircraft monitored 121.5 then those in the unsuitable environments would be able to recieve the broadcasts? How does that work?

I wasn't aware of an automatic rebroadcast system in a VHF radios wiggly amp system! I shall have to re-read the operators handbook on that one!

:confused:
SS

[Bertie Thruster]

I have flown UK HEMs/Police for 8 years. My spare VHF box is alway set to 121.5, if I'm not using it to call ahead.

I'm biased though; many years ago when I was a new boy, flying along solo in a Gazelle, I heard a Mayday call on 121.5. I waited in anticipation to hear the D+D system wake into action!

Total silence.

I was the only person to hear it!

(Hell! How does that "Mayday Relay" go??!)

Found a light fixed wing with engine failure, landed safely.

(I got a bollocking for saying the word "Mayday" on the Army Tac net!)

[Presstransdown]

In civvy street over the UK there is no need to listen out on 121.5. No need to even carry a radio in the open FIR. Let’s not complicate things.

If you have a problem then TX on your working frequency. If you have no radio then, hey, you know the risks

As a SAR pilot I have never had to request a TDA/TRA although Kinloss have kindly offered it to me on a few occasions to which I have said no.

A dose of good airmanship by us has always sufficed and so far, good airmanship has always been shown by those around me.

I dislike it when some people in the emergency services overreact to an incident and I do not intend to join in.

A point worth mentioning is, as far as I know, that Danger areas, temporary or otherwise cannot stop civilian aircraft from entering unless that particular area is protected by a local bylaw (e.g. Salisbury Plain).

Dare I say it; an emergency caused one party does not necessarily mean an emergency on everybody else’s part.

Dare I say it (2), I get the feeling that there are one or two on this forum that get a little carried away with their own self importance and need to be taken out now and again and walked around in the real world.

[J.A.F.O.]

Crab

As you've probably gathered by now you are somewhat spoilt belonging as you do to Auntie Betty's Flying Club - most other flying clubs and private individuals are not so lucky or well equipped.

[TOT]

Gentlemen please!

Stand back and take a long look at yourselves.

Crab is only making a comment ,

Crab may have some points

You may have some points

This is not a criminal court for heaven sake.

This forum is getting to the stage where every posting is scrutinised to the n'th degree and more, by every so called expert , from every country in the world!!!

we all have our opinions, rightly or wrongly

EASE UP ITS ONLY A RUMOUR!!!

[[email protected]]

As I have said before, I did not request a TDA it was set up as a matter of course by ARCC.

The bloke with a broken ankle was being carried down the Pyg track in cloud by MRT and needed winching - hence not a HEMS 'mickey mouse' job.

Due to the weather I elected to try and warn the other helicopters in the area of our approach on 121.5 since we did not have their company frequency.

I was not being precious and suggesting a TDA must be established for every job but since they are available and at least keep FJ away from us then I will continue to use them - every bit of protection helps. I heard the TDA announced on 121.5 at 2000' in the LLanberis pass so anyone else monitoring 121.5 would probably have heard it as well.

A TRA makes it an offence to fly within it unless permission is given by the Emergency Controlling Authority who sets it up - these are reserved for major emergency situations - a TDA is not mandatory for civil aircraft but is used to alert traffic to SAROPs.

SS- if you are flying in Snowdonia and have a problem and put out a mayday on 121.5 because you are in class G airspace without an ATC service then unless you are above 2-3000' the only people who will hear you are other aircraft in the area monitoring 121.5 - oh dear nobody wants to do that so you are stuffed until overdue action is taken. Witness Bertie Thrusters tale - but then he is ex-mil and not driven totally by money considerations.

You only get as much flight safety as you are willing to pay for and if you don't want it then fine, crack on and hope that you are never in the situation where you call for help and no-one hears.

Speechless Two - strangely enough I am quite capable of seeing other peoples point of view - sad that so many others are blinkered by the balance sheet and can't see mine. I would like to know how the ex-mil guys attitude compromised flight safety - did you really mean 'upset the customer' or 'affected profitability'?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Oogle,

Don't worry about it being a mil-bashing jaunt - pretty well all the posters who've come back at Crab are ex-mil themselves (I survived 28 years working for Aunt Betty). Like Speechless Two we've made the transition with differing levels of success (and pain) into the Dark Side, aka civilian aviation. It's a process which the unwilling or unwary can find quite shocking.

Crab,
I would like to know how the ex-mil guys attitude compromised flight safety
- without pretending to speak for Speechless Two (there must be some quip about getting 4 presses of the PTT here somewhere), consider the case where some numpty ex-mil bloke decides that the police task he's on is going to be done HIS way, not the way the bobbies require (and pay for). CRM breakdown = FS hazard. Just one possible example from my chosen ex-mil flying "career".

As for mandating radio for all aviators, its a sound opinion and you're fully entitled to it. You've got reasons for it which you've explained. My opinion is different - I think there's room for non-radio ops and my experience is that they can be safe to the tolerances required by most standards-monitoring organisations. As with the discussion over on the Speed Camera thread - if people think legislation is wrong then get it changed, but meanwhile live with it and make it work.

[SilsoeSid]

crab,

As VHF was the main frequency band used, I used to fly around with my UHF box set at TR+G, much to the surprise of most when they kept hearing 'Securite' and the like. But thanks for the sermon anyway.

In Snowdonia, perhaps a passing a/c will more than likely monitor Valley. Don't Ops Normal calls apply any more?
In my experience, I think you'll be surprised if even passing mil traffic will have 121.5 dialled up let alone turned up! However times change!

Witness Bertie Thrusters tale - but then he is ex-mil and not driven totally by money considerations. How does that work? When you leave, your company can put its hand into the military budget?

:confused:
SS

[SASless]

I think back to some of the flying I have done in somewhat remote places...Alaska, Somalia, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Mali, Burkina Faso, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iran, and Canada spring to mind....even in Washington and Oregon....radio flight following was not possible due to the terrain, nature of the task, and sheer distance from anyone that had a radio.

Somehow...we managed to survive despite not having radio services. We flew in some awfully inhospitable terrain in places....and over some very hostile folks in others. Talking to others around you...knowing someone will hear you if you holler for help is a comfort. But...it is only a convenience not a necessity.

On the one job in Africa.....after we cleared Bobo-Diolasso airspace we took off the headset and put on ear muffs....that was on Monday morning.....we did not need the headset again until late Friday afternoon or Saturday morning when we returned to Bobo. If you went down.....it would be a very long wait for help. The customer knew where your night stops were....thus you would only be out at most two days before someone missed you worst case.

In Somalia....the US Army always flew in pairs no matter where they went....we flew the 212 single pilot....without a second aircraft all over the country without any flight following beyond getting an arrival message sent back to your point of departure (if possible). It worked.

The Dark side can be a challenge sometimes....but that is why they paid the big bucks right?:E

[Oogle]

The only reason I listen out on 121.5 is to hear any EPIRB activations.

Isn't this the first thing you would reach for if you were forced down? That is unless it hasn't gone off already.

Voice will obviously be masked by the terrain but at least an EPIRB is going spaceward towards the satellite.

[flygunz]

I never thought the day would come when I came to the defence of a Crab on PPrune. Having worked with the guy (he will not thank me for this!) I can assure you he is a highly professional operator and that his standpoint is to simply improve safety.
However, unlike him, I transitioned to commercial aviation and just like speechless2 says, had to adjust quickly to the different style of operating. Civil Operators are not usually blessed with an open chequebook and the inclusion of another radio that is not necessary would be cost prohibitive.
So Crab, I think you will have to accept the realities of life here.

Good luck and safe surfing!
Gunz.

[[email protected]]

Thanks flygunz that's a beer I owe you.

Sasless - if you haven't got the radio facility and can't talk to anyone then so be it, that as you say is the reason you get paid lots. But if the facility is there and you choose not to use it then that, in my book, is foolish.

I accept the economic realities of life in the cruel, harsh world of civil aviation but it don't make it right and, as flygunz said, I am only coming at this from a flight safety perspective.

SS - get with the programme - weekend, Valley shut etc - do I have to keep spelling it out?

Thud and Blunder - I think your example is more about customer feedback and satisfaction than CRM or flight safety - the answer is to only employ the non-numpty ex-mil guys! Being safe to the tolerances of the monitoring organisations means doing the absolute bare minimum to avoid being dangerous which is not the same as promoting fight safety.

[PPRuNe Radar]

I think the addition of a second radio adds very little for a proportionally big cost. There is of course no such thing as 100% safety and nor can it be at any cost. There will always remain an element of calculated risk. That's the reality of the civil world where commercial interests do play a leading part.

Personally, on the military side of things, I'd much rather see them spend their money on something which really would enhance safety. For example TCAS (or similar) on low level aircraft, which they have been talking about doing for decades now but never seem to quite get around to it. Or perhaps black boxes on aircraft such as Chinooks. Real and tangible benefits would be provided for not only the military but other operators as well.

[[email protected]]

But then you get the same argument from the miltary bean counters - TCAS costs money and reduces payload for no military benefit - the fact that it might alert FJ to other air users is ignored since there have been few midairs (fortunately) so there is no cost benefit to the military.

HUMS and other blackboxes are already on Chinooks and are even being retrofitted to Sea King - but only because the military sees a benefit in engineering savings from doing so.
So it really is not much different on the other side of the fence since cost determines just about everything - it doesn't stop people having a healthy interest in flight safety.

However if the military really did have an unlimited budget for FS issues (which it most certainly does not) we would have had anticipators fitted to the Puma when the first board of inquiry recommended it!

[ShyTorque]

"However if the military really did have an unlimited budget for FS issues (which it most certainly does not) we would have had anticipators fitted to the Puma when the first board of inquiry recommended it!"

Or even before that - when Handling Sqn, Boscombe Down, said that the aircraft should not be allowed to enter RAF service without engine anticipators in the first place? :8

[SilsoeSid]

crabSS- if you are flying in Snowdonia and have a problem and put out a mayday on 121.5 because you are in class G airspace without an ATC service then unless you are above 2-3000' the only people who will hear you are other aircraft in the area monitoring 121.5 - oh dear nobody wants to do that so you are stuffed until overdue action is taken. In Snowdonia, perhaps a passing a/c will more than likely monitor Valley. Don't Ops Normal calls apply any more? SS - get with the programme - weekend, Valley shut etc - do I have to keep spelling it out?Unfortunately crab, Yes. That is if you want to specify the rules as you go along!

In this case perhaps it would be more pertainant to maintain the company/operating airfield freqs as these would more than likely be monitored by the 'passing a/c' in question.

As a matter of fact in this weekends case, the R44 was in contact with crab himself during this incident on the local helicopter departure frequency, which apparently SAR used regularly to inform them of their positions.

The whole issue of this thread is about crabs misinterpretation of the events.
The mountain flying course were aware of the TDA and later asked what is all about. I suspect the broadcast did not specify why a TDA has been set up and that is why he was asked about it.
Finally, the reason the 5 out of 6 a/c weren't monitoring 121.5 (crabs figures) is because they were on a course on a company freq. The No6 (R44) was monitoring both freqs!

http://www.helitorque.com/clients/brownemob/images/SAR1.jpg

crab@overflys the operating base for the MF course!.

Makes me wonder what freq the course should do a 'lifting call' on!! :p

:ok:
SS

[[email protected]]

Ah SS - now you have started quoting yourself to try and make your case (the bit about monitoring Valley and ops normals) - there is a job for you in the tabloid press!

You obviously know someone who was on the det but still haven't got your facts right

As a matter of fact in this weekends case, the R44 was in contact with crab himself during this incident on the local helicopter departure frequency, which apparently SAR used regularly to inform them of their positions.
Not true - when we went back in during the afternoon on a training trip, we talked to the R44 on their company frequency which we had obtained from their hotel. During the SAROP in the morning, we only made broadcasts on 121.5.


The whole issue of this thread is about crabs misinterpretation of the events.
Not true - more about other people (who were not there) misinterpreting the events and jumping to conlcusions.


The mountain flying course were aware of the TDA and later asked what is all about. I suspect the broadcast did not specify why a TDA has been set up and that is why he was asked about it.
They only questioned it long after the job was complete (again on the telephone). The broadcast for a TDA only says it is for SAROPs which should be enough for anyone.

Finally, the reason the 5 out of 6 a/c weren't monitoring 121.5 (crabs figures) is because they were on a course on a company freq. The No6 (R44) was monitoring both freqs! But all you guys have told me no-one would pay for a second radio and wouldn't listen on 121.5 anyway - clearly the R44 number 6 is a top operator and all round good bloke.

Given the circumstances, the course were most at risk from one of their own helis, as far as arriving and departing from the hotel is concerned - therefore they used their company frequency (as did we) plus information calls to Caernafon Radio. There is a DEPCOM frequency but I don't suppose that gets used much in civvystrasse despite it being there for exactly that reason......bit like 121.5 really

PS - nice picture

[headsethair]

Can that be the end then ? Can we just agree that everyone knew what they were doing ? And that until we catch up with the century and have a text-based, regionalised, automatic delivery of TDAs we will have to live with the fact that TDAs are bound to be an inefficient way to protect SAROPS and others.

And maybe SAROPS might want to reconsider why they use TDAs on such a regular basis when they actually serve little purpose in protecting you from non-mil traffic.

BTW: Edinburgh TRA July 2,3,4 & 6 just creeping out into the system. 2nm rad to 2000 ft. As of yesterday the NOTAM system didn't have the full details and the police tel no was wrong.

See what we mean Crab ? It's a bit of a black art out here.

[MOSTAFA]

!!!!!!!Deuce!!!!!!!! Fer chrisakes!!!

[[email protected]]

headsethair - if it is notified in advance then it is probably for an airshow/red arrows type event (the other and main use for a TRA) and will have little to do with the military - if the info is wrong ring the AUS at the CAA.
These TRAs are regularly infringed by GA traffic.

We will continue to use TDAs because, as I said earlier, they protect us from FJ traffic.

Mostafa - am I through to the semi finals yet?

[SilsoeSid]

Semi-Finals crab !!!!

Goodness me, IMHO you are the Tim Henman of PPRuNe.

You get us all worked up and then let us down with the realisation that you could never really cut it with the 'real players!!! ;)

Heads Up!
:ok:
SS

[SASless]

Somehow I can see Crab in a policy making position at the CAA upon his retirement from the mob.

[Thomas coupling]

Does that mean when I demand a TDA for my HEMS...you have to keep out too, crab?

There's always the AIRPROX board to come out to Crab. Now thats a real toothless tiger.

If you are constantly monitoring 121x5, who's on 123x1??????

:E

[headsethair]

Crab: "These TRAs are regularly infringed by GA traffic."

If they are, then the c**p dissemination of information is largely to blame. I'm certain that no GA pilot would knowingly fly through a TRA, bearing in mind the consequences.

Roll on mode S, maybe, and roll on someone with half a brain who can improve on the information distribution.

When I'm in my car I can call a simple 3-digit number on my phone - the system senses where I am and gives me relevant up-to-date traffic info.

So the tech is there and cheaply available - but yet again aviation is held back by its own rules. The intransigence of the certification rules is making life more dangerous for all.

[[email protected]]

Headsethair - I didn't make it up about TRAs -see this site

http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/infstats.asp

Your phone is clever but unless it is mandated by the CAA will anyone fit it to their aircraft?


TC - yes, I have to keep out too - you'll be pleased to know. But I can monitor 121.5 and use 123.1, all at the same time( that superfluous TR+G setting civvies won't pay for) - and UHF, HF and VHF marine - but despite years of requests, we still don't have direct comms with the police ground units or ambulance control.

SS - better than being the ball-boy though!

SASless - now that could be a fun job................

[SASless]

Crab,

Wulfsberg makes some wonderful radio's.....you can talk to just about everyone in the world shy of the Almighty on the things....but it costs money. Lots of money...to have that capability.

I have flown them in the US....very nice pieces of kit...but it takes coordination between all the agencies involved to work out a signals plan that works.

The usual major road block to that success was the "my way or the highway attitudes held by some of the agencies".

[PPRuNe Radar]

If they are, then the c**p dissemination of information is largely to blame. I'm certain that no GA pilot would knowingly fly through a TRA, bearing in mind the consequences.

There is a FREEPHONE number for Reds TRAs. How much simpler could it be to dial it before you fly, listen, note any TRAs in the area of intended flight and then make sure you keep clear of them ??

I disagree with your assertion that the dissemination is to blame. I believe it lies fairly and squarely with the pilots and poor flight planning, in these specific instances. A point of view also shared by the judge in a recent well publicised prosecution. :ok:

How did pilots ever cope with getting NOTAMs before the advent of telephone and internet based facilities ??

:8

[TeeS]

Hi PPRune Radar

It was much much easier to get the NOTAMs before the advent of telephone! Homing Pigeons were trained to intercept the aircraft prior to entering the relevant area. The pilot then read the notice attached to its leg and the Chief Steward would have the bird cooked for the Captains supper prior to landing. Great system!

TeeS ;)

[Crashondeck]

Hang on a minute Headsethair, do you mean TRA or TDA. TRAs are planned in advance and therefore are included in AICs and NOTAMs. As a result they can be planned for as Pprune Radar has pointed out. There is no excuse for busting TRAs and this has been tested in the courts to the detriment of the pilots concerned. We are talking TDAs here (unless I have missed something).

SAROPS take on a whole variety of tasks, ranging from a snatch and dash to a search lasting a couple of days. But in all cases, there is an aircraft that may not be able to comply with the rules of the air and the TDA is set up to protect that aircraft and its crew. ARCC Kinloss do an admirable job setting up these TDAs and disseminating that information. I wasn't aware until Crab mentioned it that it was transmitted on 121.5. Maybe I should now, but I am not convinced that it would be much good owing to the terrain and altitude I operate at.

Crab,

I would imagine that where you operate most fast jets will hear a TDA promulgated on 121.5 or guard, but what about your colleagues who operate in the Lake District, North Pennines and Scotland? Will a FJ operating within the HRA hear it? The sad facts are that TDAs offer no guarentee of protect from any form of traffic, although of course they should reduce the risks.

I find it sad that aviation comms are still in the dark ages when small yachts can receive sat television via a gyrostabilised dish anywhere in the world. Why can't aviation comms be done via satelite and get away from ye olde VHF sets which can hide behind hills?

[headsethair]

Crab, you're definitely heading for either politics or the law when you leave the mil. I looked at that web link - and I read the whole article. You've only read what you want to read.

"Finally, the number of infringements attributed to GA pilots must be considered within the conrtext of the number of GA pilots and aircraft, and the number of flights and hours flown by them. GAMTA, on their website www.gamta.org , state that there are over 8,000 GA aircraft in the UK, representing more than 90% of UK-registered civil aircraft. No statistics are available to show exactly how many GA flights are undertaken and how many hours are flown in any given year, but it is probably safe to say that that those flights resulting in an airspace infringement represent a small proportion of these. That does not suggest there is not a problem, as each infringement will carry with it some degree of flight safety risk. Infringements are caused by all sectors of the aviation community and every effort should be made to reduce the number of occurrences."

[[email protected]]

Headsethair - that is their way of trying to move the blame for GA infringements, they are saying that with such a huge number of aircraft movements, the number of infringements is small as a percentage. That is true but lies, damn lies and statistics doesn't get away from the fact that the number of infringements occur, 'each carrying with it some degree of flight safety risk'.

Crashondeck - to my knowledge the FJ don't monitor 121.5, only 243.0 but they should hear a TDA broadcast in most parts of the UK; where they don't, then such is life,we'll carry on with lookout and hoping they see us. TDAs are not perfect but they're all we have.

SASless - and you have to get someone to pay for the radios - we often suffer from the 'we've done it this way for 20 years and didn't need radios then' sort of mentality which is why we are still flying with the same cr*p avionics fit in the Mk3 Sea King.

As for the Reds - I once listened to an air trafficer (at a grass airfield in Hampshire) give take-off clearance to a Cessna just as the Reds had called running in from 5 miles to start their display! And he did!

[EESDL]

So, enough...........

If I wanted to drop some hikers off on Snowdon, where would be a good place to start and, more importantly, where's a nice local hotel for me to park and scoff?

Must confess, most civvy aircraft I've flown have 2 radios as a matter of course.

I regulary fly through Snowdonia enroute Abersoch, boxes are flicked around the local frequencies, depending on success, and London Mil or Info, anyone who would hear me if I had to land asap.

A gaggle of Helos would provide excellent mutual support but am a bit surprised to hear that they were not on Caernafon freq, but then I'm not sure where they were operating.

Fly Safe.........we are not all invincible when we climb into our single-engined, piston-powered, fragile, whirling machine - hats off to those that do.

[helicopter-redeye]

If I wanted to drop some hikers off on Snowdon, where would be a good place to start

RE the other discussion, thats probably a national park too, so similiar bylaws would apply ...

[EESDL]

Red-eye
P-y-G it is then!

[md 600 driver]

eedsl
do you go to the same place as i have in abbersoch in a 355 or 44
steve

[helicopter-redeye]

P-y-G


Well that could be Pen Y Gent in Yorkshire or the Pyg track on Snowdon ....

[SASless]

Ah but Zeb....one must be on his frequency!!!

[Saint Evil]

Fer Chr1sts sake everyone

All Crab is saying that everyone, where possible should monitor 121.5 Not even so you can hear messages from ATC(poor line of sight etc) but so we can all act as a safety net for each other.

What is the problem with that? i personally would like to hope that when i fly that others are monitoring the distress freqs, so if i have to put down in a hurry someone, anyone may hear me - not just ATC.

Are we not all aviators and do we not have to look out for each other? All crab did was go and rescue someone and then try tonform the other airspace users that he was there. What is the drama?

I have heard some absolute cr@p on this thread from people telling crab to get over it - he is just suggesting that we should help each other and if the rest of you pontificating pilots can't see that then I hope I never have to put down in a hurry near any of you because I knwo you'll never help.

The TDA system exists to inform poeple of SAROPs etc. What is the problem with that?? For Chr1sts sake inromation to make everyone's life easier and safer is out there but no-one wants to use it.

HEMS/EMS - why don't you get a TDA announced so that when you are trying to land and you are slow and not very manouverable and looking for wires etc you don't collect a fast jet up the arse!! What is wrong with trying make things safer???

There are so many of you on this thread who need to pull their heads out of their @rses and realise that just cos nothing has happened so far that it doesn't mean that it won't in the future.

Crab, my respects. You are a professional aviator who is trying to amke the aviation world a safer place. If the rest of the bean counters and crab bashers can't see that i hope that you get a job with the CAA and force them from the skies.

Rant over.

Regards

The Saint

Soory for the spelling and capitals etc. I was angry typing and I apologise.

[hot_spud]

Crab

It seems to me that there are a lot of people out there that are taking, in my opinion, a stupid risk by not listening to an internationally recognised frequency. There is a lot of talk about "real world", and a hint of bad feeling towards mil ops and procedures/principles.

If listening to 121.5 for the whole of an aviator's life means that they hear one distress call, and hence an immediate response is possible (as apose to delayed response ala overdue action) then that must be worth while?

There seems to be a lot of burying ones head in the sand? I know it is easy to preach the monitoring of victor guard if we already have a radio that does that, but come on guys, make our life easier - i would rather have to respond to a mayday in the general area of 'X', for instance, than have to search the whole route that the over due aircraft was believed to have taken.

As an example, about 2 years ago, a civvie was flying over Snowdon and suffered an engine failure, but he was in cloud at the time and descended into the mountains, IMC, was extremely lucky because he crash landed on a flat surface - he was very messed up but did manage to put a radio call out on guard. The boys in yellow were able to find him after 45 mins of searching - his life most definetely saved by a transmission on 121.5. I am not sure who picked up the 121.5 transmission - I think it was D & D, as the initial height was 6000'.

Good on you Crab for sticking to your guns.

spud

[EESDL]

Steve
Wouldn't go there in a 44!!
Not sure of the name of the place, twin white gables, dog balls features coming from the East!! Private garden blah blah on the headland, nice private site.

Red-eye
The Pen y Gwryd hotel?

[Bertie Thruster]

Crab, whether listrening to 121.5 or not, I wonder why anyone would want to fly in and around the hills without getting paid for it?

Helicopter mountaineers with spare money to burn are welcome to it.

Me, I'm a helicopter sherpa; no pay, no go.

[Droopystop]

Hot Spud,

Of the three Mayday calls I have heard over RT, all three were made on the local aerodrome frequency. Rather than spend money on a new radio, I would rather spend it on an ELT. That way you SAR people could home right to me instead of spending 45 minutes searching.

Having 121.5 set on a second box may well be a good idea for the cross country aviator, but I believe that the reason Crab has managed to get so many backs up is that he is perceived as expecting everyone to conform the RAF way of doing things. There is no resolution to this execpt to say by tuning into 121.5 increases your chances of hearing of TDAs and increases the chances of you being heard. But even if everyone did tune into 121.5, TDAs will still get busted and Maydays will still be missed.

[[email protected]]

Droopy, just to make things clear - monitoring 121.5 is not the 'RAF way of doing things', just something I believe is sensible for all the reasons mentioned in the posts. As I have highlighted before, the nautical community provide mutual support and therefore increased safety by monitoring the emergency frequency and I am very surprised that this is not done more widely in aviation. Some TDAs might still get busted and some maydays might get missed, but anything that reduces the number of such events has surely got to be a good thing - or should we just do nothing?
If I have got backs up ( and I certainly seem to have) then at least I have focussed peoples attention on flight safety and raised awareness of TDAs and TRAs - that is worth the abuse.

[John Eacott]

Crab,

One thing has been intriguing me: do you actually have a Milspec VHF comm with 121.5 monitoring (TR+G), or are you on a UHF set and "only" monitoring 243.0/guard?

[SilsoeSid]

crab,

Lets suppose I have a need to fly in the Snowdonia area later this afternoon, anyone got a spare map? :ugh:

I was wondering, if I could only use 1 of my 6 radios, which frequency would give me, selfishly, the best chance of getting picked up by someone, should anything untoward happen to me?

Shall I use 121.5 in the hope someone has it dialled up?

Or shall I use;

122.475 in case there is a balloon in the area?
128.825 in case there is a microlight in the area?
129.9 incase there is a hanglider in the area?
There may be some gliders about, so do I use;
129.975 Ch4
130.1 Ch2
130.125 Ch3
130.4 'gliders'
or maybe 131.4 Ch1 ?

Maybe I have a better chance with 131.5 where a passing Air Lingus aircraft may be able to help out!

Anyone got the freq for Ryanair?

Perhaps if I could time the flight so that the International space station was overhead, I could dial up their frequency, but which one?

Voice and Packet Downlink: 145.80 (Worldwide)
Voice Uplink: 145.20 for Region 1 (Europe, Central Asia and Africa)
Packet Uplink: 145.99 (Worldwide)
Crossband FM repeater downlink: 145.80 MHz (Worldwide)
Crossband FM repeater uplink: 437.80 MHz (Worldwide)

All frequencies are subject to Doppler shifting.
Sourse ARISS (http://www.rac.ca/ariss/oindex.htm#Frequencies in use)

Maybe the Shuttle, once up again, could help out;

145.8000 Primairy Downlink Shuttle-Earth: Voice (FM-N) and packetradio
145.5500 Downlink Shuttle to Earth
145.8400 Downlink Shuttle to Earth

144.4900 Uplinkfrequency for European amateurs
144.4700 Uplinkfrequency for amateurs in the USA
144.4500 Uplinkfrequency for amateurs in the USA
Source2 (http://www.bommeltje.nl/scanners/english/space.shtml)

I think we need to increase the freq range of the radios we have do this though!


Just a thought, because I wondered if these users of the air/space monitored or were even able to reply on 121.5 aswell as use their own user freqs?

Just in the planning stage at the mo, so your advice would be appreciated. ;)

:rolleyes:
SS

p.s. Frequencies from t'internet so could be bollix!
p.p.s. Not to be taken seriously!

[Thomas coupling]

Saint evil: It would help if you recorded your flying experience in your profile. Then we would have a better perspective on where you come from.
In its absence, I would hazard a guess that you aren't a regular civvy operator (commercial or otherwise).
You would understand where Crab is coming from, appreciate that it sounds commonsense, but then realise that IN REALITY, based on realistic local air traffic pressures, and the fact that it is not MANDATORY (I wonder why), that 121x5 on constant listen out is not derigeur.
It would be ideal to monitor it all the time, but as I have just witnessed today in Snowdonia:
All my transmissions on 121x5 were met by a loud silence.
The national park was swimming in FW and light helo's [5 of them at one time] and they were all listening out on caernarfon and Valley - where the action was.
Now do they deselect one of these to listen to 121x5?
It's all down to risk management and thats what piloting is all about.

If my colleagues at the air ambulance and myself did TDA's today for every job we attended in the parks, the whole area would be an avoid until just 10 mins ago.

Get real, stop being a prat and join the real world.:*

[mayotte]

Whilst I hesitate to agree with TC as he so often tends to forcibly overstate things, for once I thnk he's right. I have no knowledge of UK operations, but where I fly (often in sparsely-populated areas in mountains considerably higher than those in Snowdon) monitoring of 121.5 is totally impracticable. I have to monitor a company operations frequency on one VHF radio, an area common frequency on another VHF radio, a client frequency on my HF radio and another client frequency on my FM radio. If I have an emergency I rely on my transmissions being picked up on the radio I last managed to communicate on, or if need be, either by manual operation or crashing, the satellite picking up my signal on 406. If I survive I then use my Ascom satellite phone (considerably cheaper than installing a third VHF radio) to try and let my company know where I am so I can be rescued.
In reality, I would imagine that in most countries, most pilots would first put out a distress call on the frequency on which they last managed to make radio contact and 121.5 would only be used as a last resort.

[[email protected]]

John, on the Mk 3 we have seperate VHF and UHF radios and both have a TR+G so 121.5 and 243.0 can be monitored. On the Mk3A we have 3 multiband radios, all with a TR+G facility.

Mayotte - when you have someone else to talk to then there is no problem - all this thread has been about an area where no ATC is available at low level. The helicopter detachment provided themselves with mutual support by using a company frequency and one of them monitored 121.5 as well - perfect. If you are a sngle aircraft with no ATC and no company freq then why not use 121.5?

TC - if St Evil is who I think he is then his flying experience far outstrips yours, do show some respect. No-one heard you on 121.5 then? that's because no-one monitors it which was the thrust of this thread anyway. I didn't expect an answer when I put out blind calls giving our position.
In most areas of Snowdonia you can't get Caernafon or Valley (who are shut at the weekend anyway) at low level, so where are the 'local air traffic pressures' then.

SS - slow day at work then? Don't forget Magic on guard.

[EESDL]

Fellow Rotorheads

May I suggest that this thread has run its course?

Gets quite frustrating when you log on to see that the thread has moved to the top of the forum again, you click on it, hoping that something useful has been added, only to find that it's only someone perpetuating the pi55ing contest.

I think by now that, maybe, all useful points have been made(?)

Then again, it's a free world and the pi55ing contestants are at liberty to gain a reputation for their perpensity for 'one-upmanship' - dangerous attributes in our field may I suggest.

Crab, there's no need to feel as if you have to defend yourself or feel that you have to keep 'spelling it out' for those pilots who haven't quite grasped your point or have not read the whole thread (guilty of that crime myself). There are many of us who understand where you're coming from.

ANO
You've all (more or less) made valid comments (IMO), although some of them have been tangential in their relationship to the initial point and some have been naive in their content. Almost as if you went mountain flying once (Snowdon is only just a 'mountain'), got away with it, and now think is the template for future excursions because you came to no harm.

SS
Pretty impressed with the reply that listed all the frequencies, just hope that you're not getting paid by the hour because, obviously, you're not busy enough:-)

[Droopy]

Crab, just a minor point - I'm not droopystop ;)

[[email protected]]

Wise words EESDL - for me the topic is closed. Damn... now I've put it back to the top again!

[whoateallthepies]

Sorry chaps. If you're operating low level in the UK FIR outside controlled airspace the CAA says you should monitor "DEPCOM".

From the AIP Gen 3.4.3

Departing helicopters shall state:
(i) 'To all stations';
(ii) The callsign of the aircraft;
(iii) The location either by name or by reference to a readily identifiable feature;
(iv) The direction and height of the intended departure.
(d) The frequency assigned is 122.950 MHz and shall be known as 'DEPCOM'.

Don't shoot the messenger:uhoh:

[What Limits]

Which is different, of course, to SAFETYCOM !

[SilsoeSid]

crab ,
A pretty quiet Sunday morning thanks. Couldn't find 'Magic' etc on the open www. Besides as they have helped me in the past, I wouldn't want to upset them by letting every T,D & H know how to get hold of them!

EESDL,
Sorry that I'm not busy enough for you, although perhaps some would think that is a good thing. ;)
I reckon everyone had a feel good factor after watching live8, although it's a pity it didn't last throughout the afternoon/evening. :{


whoateallthepies,

Reference your AIC 3.4.3 quote, you forgot the very first line which states;

"(a) At locations having no ground radio facilities a VHF channel is available to assist departing helicopters."

You also omitted the conditions of use, which include;

"(ii) Transmissions shall occur only when helicopters are operating below 500ft agl
(iii) Helicopters approaching a site should monitor the channel. Blind transmissions are not permitted."

If the messenger passes the correct message, he has nothing to fear. :ok:

IMHO, I don't think DEPCOM ('departure' communication!!!) applies in this case as this isn't a 'departing helicopter situation.

So if transitting the Snowdonia Parks area, DEPCOM and SAFETYCOM are not of use because they are for 'departing helicopters at locations having no ground radio freqs' and 'for use at aerodromes having no notified ground radio freq' respectively.
No wonder this thread still goes on.

:confused:
SS

[whoateallthepies]

Sid

But you still have to monitor DEPCOM just in case What Limits is about to lift from his site and join you aloft.

As well as monitoring 121.5 for Crab's TDAs

And SAFETYCOM for those fixed-wing thingies

And local ATC (if available)

On the other hand, why don't we just all keep our eyes open!!!
:rolleyes: