4 on 4 off

[spannerhead]

2 days, 2 nights, 4 off. This shift only seems to be in this industry. Would we be better working 4 days, 4 off, 4 nights 4 off. The hours and coverage would be the same.

[Aerosexual]

I used to work the 4 on 4 off, it is better that the current shift pattern I am on now, 3 on 1 off, 4 on 2 off, 4 on 1 off, 3 on 3 off. Is that complecated enough for you. But I do agree the transition to night shift is hard.

[The Invisible Man]

Looking at more shift patterns than most people have had hot dinners, the 4 on 4 off is the most workable, cost effective shift pattern for a 24 hr operation. Has least of the drawbacks that most other patterns, and I like it!!!
Unless of course you know of a better one!!!

[Ali Crom]

Currently on the 7 on , 3 off , 7 on 4 off pattern leading to constant fatique & forgetfullness ( accompanied by lack of hearing according to the missus ) . This pattern which seems to be the red hot favorite shift pattern as senior management would have us believe ( until the next manager steps in anyway ) has replaced the 12hour 4 on , 4 off pattern which was popular amongst the staff rostered on it .
There's been many reports discussed in recent issues of CHIRP FEEDBACK about engineers suffering fatigue from working excessive hours but for me personally I'm permanently knackered after working a normal shift without the additional overtime . I also read that in the latest issue all licensed engineers are to receive a questionaire on the subject so that an independant report can be made and to make recommendations as to good working practice. A total ban on all shift work would suit me down to the ground but I suppose that's just wishful thinking on my part . I mean who on Earth would want to give up the early rises at 5 AM or the late shifts over the weekends for the huge sums we all get paid in shift premiums ?

AC

[Dozy Bell]

I work 2 days 2 nights 4off and to me it is the best shift to work. Only 2 early mornings then the 2nights, which are easier to get through than 4 nights especially if you cant sleep that well during the day. I turned a job down with Rich's airline because the shift I was too work was the 7 on 3 off, 7 on 4 off and I could see it would be a killer to work.

[spannerhead]

Dozy.........Maybe you can't sleep well during the day coz you only work 2 nights. This is my point, I think that the first and the last night on have gotta be the worst, the first coz your knackered and the last coz you want an easy night as your off tomorrow. Only working 2 nights, you only work the first and last. I think the middle 2 of four nights you will be at your most efficient.

[spannersatcx]

You may be interested to know that a survey of ALL Engineers in the UK are about to be surveyed, now is your chance....
This is from the latest CHIRP [url/http://www.chirp.co.uk[/url] feedback newsletter.....

Engineers' Working Hours

In recent issues of FEEDBACK we have published a number of reports from maintenance engineers concerned that excessive working hours could lead to fatigue-induced mistakes and errors being made in the workplace.

Following a review of CHIRP reports and other information, the Civil Aviation Authority has asked Professor Simon Folkard, of the University of Wales, Swansea, to undertake a survey of aircraft maintenance engineers' work patterns and to make recommendations as to good working practice.

The survey is being conducted independently of the CAA and this is an opportunity for engineers to contribute to this very important work. All licensed engineers will shortly be receiving a questionnaire from Professor Folkard. It is most important that as many recipients as possible take the time to complete and return the survey form, prepaid, as soon as possible to the University of Wales. Your co-operation is invaluable to the success of this initiative and is very much appreciated.

The results of the study will be placed in the public domain and further information will be published in a future issue of FEEDBACK.

[jetfueldrinker]

I work a system of annualised hours. Roughly (and in the winter it is rough) we work an averaged out 44 hours a week. This is worked out by having three weeks of days, 07:30 - 17:30 for either 4 or 5 days, followed by a week of lates which consists of 15:30 - 23:00 Mon - Thurs, 16:00 - 22:00 Fri. We also work 1 Suturday and 1 Sunday a month while on days. Summer is better with 6 days on, 8 days off for 6 weeks, followed by lates and nights which makes an average of 30 hours a week. I can tell you that in the winter I have no home life, and by early February I am completely drained. The work load has steadily increased over the years and the 'C' checks have continually run on till June or July, and now start in early October. I would much prefer a 4 x 4 shift as you at least have some time off in the winter. I am so knackered that I have turned down so much gobble (that is overtime to the uninitiated)and now don't get asked. But after working 50 hours in one week, can you blame me? Oh yes the bean counters love it, but they also expect you to carry out any domestic admin while you are on your late shift. I could go on, but I will let someone else have a shout.

JFD

[Dozy Bell]

spannerhead,

I have worked nights at a previous employer. We used to have to do a 9 week stint Mon to Thurs 2000 to 0600, and even after the ninth week I still couldn't sleep that well between nights, meaning I would be absolutley knackered come Friday. That is why 2 days 2 nights is best for me.

[Rob_L]

A couple of years ago I was transferred to Bristows at North Denes. Prior to my departure I was told that the shift system was 12 on 2 off, 12 on 2 off, 7 on 7 off.
After stopping laughing at this obvious windup I set off. What did I find,no windup
at all. I wasn't sorry to see the back of that place.



o

[WenWe]

I've worked both 4days, 4off, 4nights, etc
& 2days, 2nights, 4 off.
2days, 2nights is by far the best IMHO.
After working 4nights, it used to take me all of my days off to return to a 'normal' sleep pattern.

[CONES R US]

4 on 4 off rules. I did a period of the same but with 2 sets of days and 2 sets of nights, but it didn't seem as good as 4 days, 4 off, 4 nights, 4 off.
I did do a couple of good shifts in the RAF - 2 weeks on (1 days and 1 nights) followed by 2 off (oh yes) or my main one where there were 3 shifts and we worked 8 hour shifts.
1 week of days, 1 week of evenings, then the shift split in two. 1 half worked a weekend, the other half had time off. Then the half that worked the weekend had a week off and the half that previously was off, worked nights. This meant that every weekend was a long one unless you worked and you had one week off in six. Each shift was only 8 hours long and it was the best thing I have ever been involved in - hard to imagine that it was dreamt up by the military, but there you go.




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Gimme a bottle of anything, and a glazed donut......TO GO!

[DoctorA300]

I have been working in Sweden for the last 6 years. Overhere there seems to be 3 dominant shift paterns. Trafic related (mostly charter ops), 5 on 5 off, and a more complex pattern with varying start and finsh times, shift lengh and weekend work.
After 15 years in the buisness I can wholeheartely say that there are as many ´ideal` shift patterns as there are engineers.
In the interrest of flight safety and with a bit of insight into human factors isn´t it time that we all start putting pressure on our local airworthiness agenzies to get a system to regulate our working hours in the same manner as the pilots have, this would of course have to count night/evening time at double rate. I know that this might seem a bit communistic, especially for those of our collauges that are full time contractors, but it would eliminate those rediculous 12 hours night shift with 4 hours overtime followed by another 12 hour night, I think we have all tried this, and I think we have all expeirenced not being able to remember what we did 10 minutes earlier.

[redtail]

Most major airlines over here are 8 hours, either fixed days off or rotating days off, and fixed shifts. Some are more progressive with ten hour shifts, but few ever rotate shifts.

First 8 (or ten hours, depending on shift) is straight time, next four hours at 1.5T overtime, then 2T after that.

Myself, I'm envious of United's ten hour/rotating days off schedule. five tens/three days off, the some four tens/four days off. More time away from the mismanagement.

Have y'all ever considered unionizing? :)

[WenWe]

Redtail - the largest 'unionised' Engineer workforce in the UK industry is at BA, & some guys there work 7 on, 3 off, 7 on, 4 off, earlies & lates!
Some loons even like it! (back in Airtours/BOAC/BEA days etc etc ramble ramble types).
All for having a union tho' , just so long as it's the right one.

[pizza]

I work permanent night shift 2on 1 off 2on 4 off. I`m sick of feeling rooted on my days off and constantly fatigued at work. By the time you adjust your body its time to get back into nights again. Management just says that "night shift suits the needs of the business". Stuff the guys.

[Penn Doff]

Out of interest what are you being paid for 2d+2n/4off, at my current employer it is only £3k.

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"please report further"

[Bite tester]

I have worked both 4 days,4 off,4 nights,4 off, and 2 days,2 nights 4 off. I can say that 2/2/4 is much my preferred shift, only two early mornings then a lie in, followed by just two nights. I usually found four early mornings in a row were more tiring that the nights. I'll stick with the lie in after two days. Current shift pay for 2/2/4 is around £6.5K

[Penn Doff]

Hey Bite tester who do you work for, is your shift pay good or is mine just poo!!!

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"please report further"

[HiSpeedTape]

Penn
Yours must be poo cos for rotating days/nights ie 2 days, 2 nights, 4 off we get £5.1K on the line. I think the hangar guys get a better deal than us line boys though. on the subject of pattern preferences, I reckon the 2 days 2 nights 4 off pattern is the best. The boss is trying to get us to do some kind of stupid 7 on 3 off, 7 on 4 off or 6 on 3 off pattern covering 24 hours with earlies and lates. Sounds like sh!te to me though.

[SnapOff]

HiSpeed Tape, Do all you can to resist 7on 3off... I've worked it and it is a killer. By day 5 you have had enough, interest wains and so by consequence does flight safety. It takes all your days off to recover as well. I now work 2 earlies / 2 lates, 4 off, it is by far the best I have worked. Yes it can be tiring but not as bad as a 7day shift by a long way. As a side line seems to be developing, I get £1750 for this shift, any comparisons welcome !

[Penn Doff]

Yo SnapOff how you doing? It's starting to look as though its not just our pay that is being left behind, the comparisons for shift allowance are interesting!
As you say the days of 7on/3off 7on/4off are in the past now, even my stint on nights was better than that.

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"please report further"

[spannersatcx]

We cover all weekends and public holidays, however many weekend days in the month is how many days we get off, normally end up doing something like 6 on 2 or 3 off, 8hr days. Cover from 5am to around 6pm with an early and a late shift. How much do we get? Absolutely nothing, zero, nought, **** all.

[Rob_L]

currently our pay is 15% of basic for 4x4 nights. 10% 4x3 nights. So for a certifying engineer on 4x4 permanent nights £4800.
Basic is about £32000, bonus is up to 25%of basic. In a perfect world 4x4 nights would give £44800

[cotos]

Although this thread seems to have erred from the original dicussion of what is a good shift, it's a good one nonetheless. With regard to who get's what it all depends on the rest of the package.
Spannersatcx gets no shift pay but they get a goodish basic. Hispeedtape gets a bucket load of shift pay but from my experience with his employer basic is total poo. Penndoff and me get not much shift pay, a tad below average basic pay but it only costs me £700 for a fortnight in BGI for a family of 5 all in. Other places get loads of approval pay, some get 1000's, some like where I used to work get £10 per month per A/C but only if one flew into your station that month, if you didn't get a Classic that month, sorry no tenner. It's all swings and whatsits. Of course we should all earn more but who outside a/c engineering gives a toss??
Anyway 4days on 4 off, 4 nights on 4 off is the best.

[wanty]

Seems like most of u blokes work in the UK,hence the pay in pounds.Anyway,I work in Australia for Qantas, on the 2days 2 nights,4 off and to me it is the best shift around that I know of.Our shift penalties are averaged over a week and equate to about 43% of base pay.Not meaning to sound picky,but at least you blokes over in Europe have more than 2 airlines with which to take your liscences to. IE ,over here we only have Qantas and Virgin blue.Qantas only ever offer 3% as an annual increase in base pay, each time there is an enterprise bargaining agreement period come due.Or you can work for Virgin blue and get worked to the bone. On roughly $110k a year flat, with my shifts,but beeats the hell out of pumping the o/t all the time.:ok:

[TURIN]

Wanty,
Qantas only ever offer 3%

For what it's worth BA gave 2.5% last year and 3.2% this year.
Next year will be equivalent to RPI.

Shift pay increases are also RPI trackers.

4n, 4off is currently paying about £100/week.

What is the RPI in OZ?

Back to the topic.

2d, 2n 4off. Best shift I have ever done when compelled to work a night shift.

4d, 4off best ever.:ok:

[spannersatcx]

What's a payrise!!!!:{

[wanty]

Gday Turan,not sure what u mean by RPI.Suspect it is your rate of inflation.Is this correct?If so,it is about 4-5% per annum.With the measly 3% Qantas offers,after tax(49%),all we end up with is a bull**** 1.5% which is crap.

[Blacksheep]

Its the long term health effects that must be considered. These only appear after many years of shift working and are the result of disturbed circadian rythms. Medical research tells us that shift workers have increased risks of high blood pressure, heart disease, stroke, digestive disorders and kidney failure. These are thought to be related to stress, induced by interruption of the normal circadian rythm.

12 hour work shifts cause the greatest disruption and the popular 4 on/4 off shift is based on the 12 hour shift. Lower risk is associated with 8 hour shifts - the three shift rotation that used to be popular in the heavy engineering production industries. Its the associated daily stand down of 16 hours that is the key to stress reduction. I don't see many of the 6 to 2/ 2 to 10/ 10 to 6 shifts being used in aviation these days, though.

By all means, vote for the 4 days on/4 days off if you like the 4 days off so much, but do remember that the ill health won't kick in until you are in your fifties. There's a price to pay for everything. In my own case the bypass surgery only cost me eight years shift pay in cash so I suppose I'm in profit, but I don't know the cash value of any years still to be knocked off my life.

[chilkoot]

Anybody ever try a 3on, 2off, 2on, 3off, 2on, 2off shift? It's 12 hour shifts and we were doing two weeks days and two weeks nights, getting every second weekend with Friday, Saturday and Sunday off. Not a bad shift, some people seem to enjoy it.

[Captain Rat]

Rich's airline doesn't do 7/3/7/4 any more. All the line are on 4/4. Some 2E 6-6, 2L 10-10 and the others 2 days 6-6 2 nights 7-7.
Best shift patern ever worked, beats 7 day patterns.

[66heavy]

try 8 on 6 off permie nights on the ramp with no night allowance and below average wages, 4on 4 off sounds great to me.

[The Tox]

G'day All,

Blacksheep has raised some good points. The sciences tell us that the long term effects of shift work are only now coming to light, that is the impact on health in the latter years. So far, the latest thinking on what is the best shift pattern for the worker is the 2E's + 2N's then off because it has the least interruption on the circadian rhythms.

It may also impact the wallet and produce less shift allowance (if you're eligible), which is the main reason why one works shift work. Of course the choice of shifts is outside our control as workers, that choice belongs to the employer and is most certainly decided by the needs of the operation and the cost to supply the resources to support the operation. Long term health effects and fatigue don't enter the equation.

And to answer the question, my idea of a perfect shift pattern is shifting from the bar to the pool and eventually shifting back to the bar (to watch the footy) after I've locked the toobox. Good to chat with you - Have a good one.

[spannersatcx]

8 on 6 off permie nights sounds illegal to me, as per the working time directive (http://www.incomesdata.co.uk/information/worktimedirective.htm#Article5)

[geldap]

Have worked most shift patterns out there at some time or other with 5 night (sunday - thurs) being the worst, closely followed by 7 on 4 off, 7 on 3 off. Then there are the operators who have no pattern only a roster which can be O.K one week and dreadfull for two or three. 4 on 4 off almost as knackering as the 7s pattern but the best I have worked is at present 4 on 3 off mon to thurs every week (rotating earlies and lates 06.30-16.30 and 11.30-21.30) we also get £2500 ish shift pay for a completelt sociable shift !! long may it continue.

[quichemech]

Currently working 4/4 days/nights. 12 Hour days 10 hour nights, and feed up with the nights, lack of weekends and lack of sleep, been doing it for 3 and a bit years.We get £3250 in shift allowance, this has risen from an initial £2000 when we first started. Had the chance a couple of years ago to do the 2/2/4 system that a lot of you do and turned it down, a decision I am now beginning to regret.

Time off is great, moneys not bad, just wish I could sleep properly after every shift, some days like today a good uninterupted 7 hours, other days a very rough 5.Still we have to pay the bills:sad:

[aintsaying]

Air NZ AKL has a 6days on, 3days off shift. You rotate round start times of 0600, 1100, 0630, 1400, 0700, 1500 then back to 0600 starts. Biggest problem was not being able to find your car in the carpark at the end of each shift.
After 7 years of lobbying management now have allowed a tempory trial shift of something like 2on,3off, 3on, 2off.
I'm still looking for my ideal shift of 1on, 6off.

[400 Hertz]

Quite a few of you seem to rate the 4 on 4 off shift. The trouble with that shift is that you do work several weekend days on the trot when you work it.

You might be better off if you used the 12 hour '6 - 4 - 4' shift. 6 nights, 4 off, 4 days, 6 off, 4 nights, 4 off, 6 days, 4 off, 4 nights, 6 off, 4 days, 4 off, 6 nights ...etc. This pattern is based around a 28 day cycle, and you only work 14 days in 28, and you get two free weekends a month.

Anybody tried that?

[quichemech]

400
I've worked it at the same place as you, personally I found the 6 set really hard going, days worse than nights infact, hated getting up at 5ish to be in for 6, with the nights your body settled into a better routine as you progressed through the shift, but it's not fair on your families, especially at weekends.
The plus side is 2 weekends off per month and the 6 off is great. Bond Air services currently do 6/4/4/6 but with out nights, great shift pattern:ok:

[aunt Mary]

done most shifts 4 on 4 off, 4 on 3 off, 3 on 1 off etc, now working 7 on 7 off permie nights which is great every other weekend off, no management hassels. Bit knackered by night 7 but take a weeks holiday and get 3 weeks away, using staff travel loads now!:D

[Utopia]

Like most on this thread, I have worked most of the usual patterns. I have to say that 2d2n4o is fine if not much happens on the nights. However IMHO 4d4o4n4o is far easier to cope with especially if the nights are 'full on'.

[cutmeownthroatdibler]

Well, at my place (base maintenance) we've all been complaining because the thought police have taken us off our beloved 4 days on 4 days off shift.......
and put us on a mon-fri 8hr dayshift.

OK, our pay may be crap, but having read the alternatives that you chaps suffer, maybe I won't complain too loudly.
:ooh: