Airline pilots as Part Time PPL instructors

[Ops and Mops]

Hi all,

A quick question if i may?

In my experience as an ATCO I have noticed that some part time PPL instructors at major UK airports who are also locally based Airline Pilots seem to be increasingly impatient when being held in their light aircraft against scheduled IFR inbounds, or against departures of aircraft in a higher Vortex Wake category.

What is more annoying is that they also seem to play the "I should fit in to the approach sequence here" or "I wanted to land ahead of that traffic" game with a student on board.

As fellow instructors/professional aviators, would you agree with teaching a student to even attempt to "force" air traffic into degrading separation behind a Vortex departure for a touch and go, or even to try and second guess the approach sequence of inbound traffic?

We in Air Traffic are aware that the bill is racking up with every passing minute, however we have a duty to provide a SAFE, ORDERLY and EXPEDITIOUS service to ALL air traffic, in that order, period.

It may be of use to know that any traffic that is conducting training (except for an initial Instrument Rating Exam) takes one of the lowest categories of flight. Attempting circuit training and giving the a controller grief when it is busy gains nothing and takes up valuable RT time.

When the boot is on the other foot, and you are flying your passenger chariot, would you or your Ops Director be too chuffed if you went around due to ATC sneaking in a VFR circuiter ahead?

I would be grateful for some constructive feedback!

Cheers!
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[Gazeem]

As both of the above I think my local airfield does an excellent job of integrating both types of traffic.

I have gone around in a light or pulled off the RW to allow a bigger boy to go past without a problem.

I realise the difference between a go around in a 152 and a Cat D aircraft.

I wouldn't try to force the issue with ATC,

the only thing is that when I am flying the a/c for landing (IE not the student in the circuit) I would advise that I can fly at 110 Kts down to the piano keys from a tight base and get off the active expeditiously within a stream of inbounds. (Having applied a common sense judgement to the range of the inbound).

This is in order to save the student cash and to get 1 a/c out of the air, although I would'nt question a negative.

I should hope that this helpful info and not seem too pushy.

[Earthmover]

Slightly off thread, but what happened to good old courtesy and looking after each other?? Like this story ..

A number of decades ago a Cambrian Airways 1-11 was on the approach to Bristol and a student on his first-solo was told to continue downwind. He misunderstood, misheard, whatever and turned base leg. The 1-11 promptly went around.

After landing, the Captain said to the tower "would you ask that pilot to report to the Cambrian 1-11 please - I'd like a brief word with him" The student, in utter misery, duly dragged himself up the airstairs to be greeted with ...

A bottle of champagne and three cheers from the crew.

What's the chances of that happening nowadays do you reckon?

[sir.pratt]

great story. i got the thumbs up from an ATR driver who was back tracking as i was taxiing in after my first solo - especially as after my 1st touch and go i got told to go (non standard) RH circuit then had to do an orbit, so it was a jump in the deep end for me!

[Centaurus]

It is nice to get a compliment. I didn't receive many in my career, but one stands out after all these years. In another lifetime I was a QFI demonstrating a flapless landing in a Long Nose Lincoln (not the easiest beast to land). Fortunately the conditions were ideal and I did a three-point greaser - with great self satisfaction I should add.

A Viscount of Trans Australia Airlines was holding ready to line up after our aircraft had landed. The pilot asked ATC to convey "his congratulations to the pilot of the Lincoln for a very well executed landing."

I was so chuffed at hearing this that I momentarily lost concentration and very nearly ground-looped towards the end of the landing run..

[Hudson Bay]

Back to the topic. It is a requirement set down by the CAA and recorded in the ANO that ALL Aircraft whatever their type, have EQUAL rights on the ground as well as in the Air. ATC cannot give preferential treatment to Airliners. I fly big and small. If I thought for a minute ATC gave preferential treatment to sombody else I would be having words.

[BillieBob]

It is a requirement set down by the CAA and recorded in the ANO that ALL Aircraft whatever their type, have EQUAL rights on the ground as well as in the Air. Ah, the naivete of youth! If you care to look in CAP 493 (The Manual of Air Traffic Services), Section 1, Chapter 4, you will find a list of 'Flight Priorities' for ATC when issuing clearances. Training Flights come after all others in ATC's list of priorities so get used to it.

And before anyone misunderstands the term 'clearance', it also states that "It should be noted that these categories are designed for use with tactical handling by ATC and not as flow control priorities."

[FormationFlyer]

As an inAs fellow instructors/professional aviators, would you agree with teaching a student to even attempt to "force" air traffic into degrading separation behind a Vortex departure for a touch and go, or even to try and second guess the approach sequence of inbound traffic?

As an instructor at an a/d with mixed heavy (sometimes very heavy...possibly cant get heavier) and light aircraft I find it shocking that the instructor would not take the opportunity to instil the correct mentality into the student.

Wake vortex is not experienced by the majority of light aircraft pilots and most learn at establishments where 'heavy' is more often used to describe the landing, lunch or beer than wake. ;)

I personally never complain about being told to orbit, yes I sometimes find it frustrating because sometimes it messes up my plan, but I use the time to teach the student how to correctly conduct an orbit such that they correct it for wind, as well as the need to start stop watches and to 'sequence' themselves behind the aircraft once told to continue such that the do not suffer an encouter with wake vortices.

I do believe ATC do a good job, the only thing I would wish for is that controllers were more aware of helo turbulence, particular if the helo performs and instrument approach (helos such as Augustas etc are quite horrific in their wake) and additionally, the area that I have found the ATCOs seem to ignore the most is a helicopter either hover-holding next to the runway, or training in a designated area on the a/d not far from the threshold when there is a significant crosswind. In both cases the helo rotor vortex is blown over the runway. It would be ATC were a little more aware of this possibility.

For instance, in days gone by I was training at Coventry - and was told by ATC of turbulence experienced over the threshold by a couple preceeding aircraft - not surprising - there was a helicopter practicing hovering in the designated training area. Now it was nice to be told - but the other pilots shouldnt have been suprised - thats an issue for me as an instructor - I make sure I tell my students to not just concentrate on the runway when making an approach but be more aware of what is happening around it - especially in a crosswind - there are several runways I will land longer on during crosswinds due to rotor caused by obstacles some way from the runway threshold.

Still I digress - to summarise...I dont agree with teaching students the sort of attitude observed in the first post.

[BingoWings]

So listen you part time PPL instructors at major UK airports who are also locally based Airline Pilots, stop giving the controllers grief!
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