US flights from/into MAN not using SIDS/STAR's?

[BMI701EGCC]

Evening PPRUNE,

Ive noticed on alot of flightplans that US carriers such as Continental, Delta and AA dont use the default MIRSI or DAYNE STARs when they arrive from the North or West, also they go DCT to NOKIN when using a SID also instead of following the actual SID

if you look at the AA flightplan below you will see that AA went DCT from DUB VOR via LYNAS waypoint straight into MAN...

ARCID/ AAL158
DOF/ 050225
ADEP/ KMIA
ADES/ EGCC
EOBT/ 2330z
ROUTE/ KMIA DCT VALLY AR7 SATLY A761 DOWNT A700 ENGLE DCT FORTE DCT YQX NATV MALOT NATV BURAK UN536 DUB UL975 LYNAS DCT EGCC
TTLEET/ 0805
SPEED/ N0468
RFL/ F330

And a SID....

ARCID/ AAL157
DOF/ 041217
ADEP/ EGCC
ADES/ KMIA
EOBT/ 1135z
ROUTE/ EGCC DCT NOKIN UN862 BHD UN864 SALCO UM30 RUSIB UN484 REGHI UN480 ETIKI DCT 4700N/01500W DCT 4620N DCT 4430N DCT 4240N DCT 4050N DCT 3660N DCT BALOO DCT PRISS DCT N6A DCT LOUIZ DCT N6A DCT NUCAR DCT HEATT HEATT6 KMIA
TTLEET/ 1004
SPEED/ N0472
RFL/ F300

So why do US carriers not use the default SIDS/STARS, is it too reduce flight time, what?


would like to hear an good PPRUNE explanation :) i know you guys are capable


Scott Waterworth
BMI701EGCC

[055166k]

You will find that ATC fill in the blanks.
How does a pilot know for sure which runway will be used for departure, and therefore which SID....several hours beforehand?
ATC will issue the appropriate clearance.
Likewise for arrival....the exact detail of the arrival will be specified by ATC at the time. Let me give an example; inbound Heathrow from STU direction, normal arrival or STAR is OCKHAM1F......however if OCK VOR is U/S it would be TOMMO1F......in the event that OCK stack was full a stack-swap STAR of Bovingdon1D would be given.
The STAR is worth a read because it incorporates a lot of fine detail such as descent planning guidance as well as speed limit points.
Haven't read your profile, apologies if over-simplistic.
A feature of the London Area Control Centre computer is that it doesn't matter too much what is on the flight plan because the computer will print out or display to the controller whatever route has been allocated as a preferencial route for certain portions of the flight in and around complex terminal areas.
Let me give an example.....inbound to EGGW[Luton] from STU direction.....if you are cruising at or above FL180 you will be given a LOREL1S arrival........below that you will be given a LOREL2L arrival [which is very different ], however the computer recognises the different cruising level and displays the correct level and frequency assignment for the relevant next sector.
The clue is in the title "Flight Plan"...it is a plan not a contract, although it may have heightened significance in the event of radio failure.
Regards.

[BMI701EGCC]

so the crew will get a diviated route using a SID/STAR then ie AA from MIA descends probably on a MIRSI arrival, meaning DUB VOR might be cut out or the could go right over a take a ROSUN i suppose, i just seems funny i live near the MIRSI hold, ROSUN is just to the north, i can see aircraft landing a departing for either runway, i also can see vectored routes from STARs etc..rather good view from where i am, the only US flight into MAN i always see is the US Airway, i also get the BMI A330's also,

its good looking out of my window tonight and following a/c departing fornm 24L and carrying out a DESIG SID, also the WASL SID from 6L flies right over me so its nice watching MAN movement, plus as explained above i always get the busy vector routes from the MIRSI and ROSUN starts to final.

nice at night when i see a/c capturing the LOC,from 6DME out(No less due to tress:(), the landing light flickering :)

cheers

Scott Waterworth

[bookworm]

if you look at the AA flightplan below you will see that AA went DCT from DUB VOR via LYNAS waypoint straight into MAN...

The route part of a FPL should begin with the endpoint of the SID (or airway from there) and end with the first point of the STAR. It's not necessary to insert a DCT, but some operators seem to, particularly if unfamiliar with the rather exacting European IFPS. As 055166k says, just because you see DCT on the FPL, it doesn't mean that the SID/STAR will not be flown.

[Martin Q Blank]

The route part of a FPL should begin with the endpoint of the SID (or airway from there) and end with the first point of the STAR. It's not necessary to insert a DCT, but some operators seem to, particularly if unfamiliar with the rather exacting European IFPS. As 055166k says, just because you see DCT on the FPL, it doesn't mean that the SID/STAR will not be flown.

It's also worth noting that if you put "SID" or "STAR" on the FPL IFPS will only put the relevant SID/STAR in the final FPL message if there is only one option available. If not (e.g most UK arrivals / departures) then it will put DCT by default.

[routechecker]

Sorry Martin but that not really correct.
IFPS will do one of the following:
-Remove the SID/STAR designator in the original FPL if stated and leave only the Waypoint or navaid like for example in the UK (this of course by request of the british authorities)
-Insert a valid SID/STAR designator if none or an incorrect one is stated in the original FPL like for example in Germany or Ireland (this of course by request of the concerned States)
-Accept DCT before/after the firt/last item of the route if no SID/STAR is published for the aerodrome and the maximum aerodrome DCT limit allows for this DCT, like for example in some French airfields, which is usually 50NM.
-If no SID/STAR is published and when the max DCT limit for the aerodrome is 0NM force you to flight plan VFR in that portion, like for example in Italy.

rgds

[Martin Q Blank]

-Remove the SID/STAR designator in the original FPL if stated and leave only the Waypoint or navaid like for example in the UK (this of course by request of the british authorities)

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with your disagreement. The above scenario is the one I was referring to, borne out by countless FPL acknowledgement messages from IFPS supporting my statement.

[routechecker]

Thats OK Martin, my disagreement was on the bit where you mentioned that IFPS will insert a DCT. The system just does not do that on it's own, even though it allows it in the situation I mentioned above.
And, by the way I did forget to mention another option. When there are SID/STARS published but the filer elects to use a point not connected to the dep/arr procedure, and the DCT distance is within the max DCT limit for the airfield, that it also accepted.

cheers