Inadvertent IMC - What to do if it happens?

[Choppersquad]

guys
if you are a vfr pilot and happen to find yourself in imc conditions due to what ever the stupid circumstances you have put yourself in, can not see above or below you in unfamiliar country at say 800ft .

do you go for the ground and hope the cloud breaks at a couple of hundred feet or do you go high and hope you come out on top of the cloud base and then figure how do get down,and yes i know your saying without vfr training you will not last anyway ,but for this question lets say i do.by the way, this has not happened to me, but it could.

cs

[ShyTorque]

1) Wings level.
2) Ball in the middle.
3) Speed under control.
4) Gently reduce power, pray there are no wires ahead and descend at no more than 500 ft/min until vmc.
5) Land.
6) Shut down.
7) Kick your own arse and make sure it hurts.
8) Next time plan your flight so you KNOW your terrain and turn back a lot earlier before you get yourself killed.

[SASless]

A good answer to your question is very hard to provide. The answer depends upon your actual situation...compounded by your training, ability, currency in instrument flying, equipment on board the aircraft, and a host of other issues.

I would not begin to give you a cookbook answer....beyond simply saying avoidance of that situation is the key to survival even for very experienced pilots in well equipped aircraft.

My rule is never fly so fast I cannot turn around, stop, or otherwise avoid an obstacle or losing sight of the ground. If visibility gets bad....go very slow...and stay low....land as soon as possible....and never leave a safe landing spot until you have another in sight. If the ceiling gets low but you have good visiblility....slow down so you can avoid obstacles....Wires will kill you.....again....better to land.

In a single engine aircraft.....I will no fly over a fog bank or low cloud....unless I can see the ground and make a safe landing in the event of an engine failure. The previous rules remain in effect.

Helicopters are designed to go slow and hover....fly them that way in bad weather unless you are on an IFR flight plan, have your clearance, and the machine and yourself are equipped, ready, and all planned up for the trip.

Thus far my beard is gray....not white.

[NickLappos]

Keep the helo under control, as Shy Torque says, but only descend as a last resort. Turn toward the direction that has the best Wx. Call ATC on an emergency frequency and tell them what has happened. Ask them if the Wx is better somewhere else, and ask them to give you a heading to get there. Don't get too wrapped up in their bull, they will ask you to do silly things, forgetting that you are alone, scared witless and not too able to fill in Federal forms while complying.

If you must descend, ask them to vector you to a flat spot away from towns and masts and the like. Then set up 300 fpm descent at 50 knots, and keep settling until you see something, then flare and stop.

[SASless]

Nick's last suggestion is a well known survival technique that works grand over flat places like the ocean or parts of Kansas....I might even suggest a slightly slower rate of descent....hopefully there is nothing sticking up to run into before you get some forward visibility. If you find yourself in this kind of pickle....the odds are not on your side anyway.

[MK10]

for what its worth:
i was always taught to make a 180 turn holding same alt.
rolling out on your reverse track should take you to the VFR
you were flying in 2 minutes ago.If it doesnt at least you are
now over terrain you have just flown over and will know if
its safe to set up a descent or not.

MK10

[helicopter-redeye]

Y, if you are suddenly 'over' IMC rather than 'in it' (may be common in Ireland if heading over the St G Channel at higher level), about face and go back to VMC below conditions.

[Choppersquad]

guys
thankyou for the input ,but yet again the experts who never have a problem have come out with how silly of me to put my self in that postion.in all the hours flying some people have never had a problem .......................i,am just saying if your head has gone up your a.. and you have made the mistake what do you do
i think mk10 has a point and take the chance in the turn and hope you have nothing at the same level as you.us mer jocks without one million hours up may make the odd mistake.


cs

[keepin it in trim]

You have the wrong end of the stick here, people were trying to be helpful, and if you only wanted advice from people without experience why bother posting the question.

However, going back to what you asked, and I am not looking down my nose at you, the very best advice is to plan ahead to avoid the situation occuring if at all possible. During my initial helicopter training we were taught that if we encountered deteriorating weather we should turn back early or failing that "slow down and go down" so that the distance you need to stop matches your speed (this also works on night nvg overland ops!).

Having also spent quite a long time operating both rotary and fixed wing IFR I would caution any pilot not trained and current on instruments about trying to do much beyond maintaining straight and level flight. Loss of control is only likely to occur faster.

Get a Mayday out immediately, keep the machine under control, unless you know EXACTLY where you are and that it is billiard table flat DO NOT DESCEND. Try and ensure you are above safety altitude. Unless the weather is uniformly awful, in which case see my previous point about planning to avoid the situation in the first place, there is a chance you may fly through the conditions. If you now find yourself stranded "on top" get that Mayday out, tell ATC about your lack of experience, maintain control of the machine, and ask for vectors to better weather, or an escort to guide you there.

This may not sound like fantastic advice but I am afraid that the likelihood of surviving an unplanned IFR encounter if you are not instrument trained and current, even for an experienced VFR pilot, is not good. At best you will get scared witless, at worst, well, in a previous life I have unfortunately seen what "at worst" is on a number of occassions.

Sorry if this isn't very positive but really don't go there is the best advice.

[BigMike]

What I was taught was to refer straight away to intruments, reduce speed, and begin a level 180 turn back to where you just flew from. For some reason the Australian CPL (H) licence has no IFR training but I did around 4 hours as part of my Fixed-wing PPL! Strange system.
The great thing about helicopters, as everyone has said, is you have the ability to slow things right down if its becoming a bit dodgy, or if possible just land before things become worse.

Cheers BigMike

[ShyTorque]

The real answer is "not to be there" but many of us have done it. I pushed my luck too far once on an instructional sortie after being ordered to go out at very low level, fly to the local sloping ground field as a weather check dummy (the course was a long way behind schedule due to prolonged bad weather). The student was flying as he was near the end of his training. We got there OK but as we came around a corner in a small valley, to enter the field, a big piece of cloud rolled towards us. He flared too hard on seeing it, which put us in solid IMC at about 150 feet agl and 45 kts reducing. I took control and climbed as quickly as possible, knowing that somewhere not too far ahead was a 1200 foot mast with support cables. I turned away with my heart in my mouth. We climbed to SALT, put out a PAN call and recovered via a PAR approach. A low time pilot would quite possibly not have made it, it was extremely demanding for me for the first minute or so, even with over a couple of thousand hours on type.

My worry is that a very low time pilot will be unable to fly in control for long on instruments in full IMC on an unstabilised machine. Even a 180 turn might be the catalyst for disaster. If the situation occurs where he has just hit the cloudbase, it might be safer to bite the bullet and lower the lever.

I've had to do that once where a student put us in cloud with a very unstable and slow flying underslung load and not enough fuel to do an IF recovery. He tried to climb to SALT but I took control and a few seconds later we were back in clear air.

Difficult call though; it really depends on the exact situation.

I recall one case of an experienced UK police helicopter pilot attempting a turnback to his helipad after entering cloud at a few hundred feet. He didn't make it.

I advocate that NO attempt is made to do anything that will distract him from keeping all the plates spinning. ATC can be of absolutely NIL use if the pilot loses his attitude control and cannot fly to their instructions.

[BigMike]

I would say some training is better than no training at all. I guess thats why 10 hours IFR is included in most CPL(H) training else where. Your right , most machines used in general GA work don't have gyros but a little training on limited panel could make a difference one day. I was lucky with the 4 hours IFR training I did, as the instructor happened to be a very experienced Helicopter pilot as well, and tried to impress upon me that this was simply to try and save you if you happed to end up in the crap! We did quite a bit of flying with the gyro instruments covered up. Sure flying helicopters is a quite different, not stable etc, but that little bit of training might make the difference one day. I would really prefer not to find out though!!

Cheers BigMike

[Jez]

Gee you blokes are harsh. This is a typical question asked by many a young pilot and I'm sure all of you have asked it in the past - so give the guy a go.

My answer to your question is to do exactly what are doing now - ask around. Get a feel for alot of responses and maybe if you find yourself in that situation, one of them may come to mind.

But more importantly, understand it is something that can easily kill. Recognise the consequences and recognising the signs of what may happen. This will help you NOT get into that situation.

Keep asking the questions as there is alot of experience tapping away on the keyboards.

[rotorspeed]

I'm with ShyTorque on this one - reckon his first advice was pretty good, ie, slow to say 60 kts, keep it dead straight, lower the lever to produce about 500ft ROD and alternately scan instruments and look outside for ground reference.

Trying to do a 180 is pretty high risk for loss of control, I reckon, for a pure VRF pilot in unstabilised machine. Nice rate 1 turn? Unlikely. The panic is very likely to result in excessive/wandering bank angle with inevitable height change and wild speed fluctuations. Terminal chaos.

Minimise what has to be focussed on. Zero bank angle, steady heading, steady speed, the only thing moving is the VSI and altimeter.

Chances are you'll break out before you hit anything. And even if you don't, with a vertical speed of only about 6mph at 500 ft/min you'll probably survive the vertical impact, and with a bit of luck there won't be a horizontal one. It will be a controlled crash and the aircraft will be upright.

Lose control in IMC and you'll have virtually zero chance - it's going to be a big, fatal impact. Even over a nice smooth field.

This way you'll also have to endure the stress of IMC control for the minimum time. Radio calls? Pointless distraction given this approach.

The only caveat to the above is if you've become IMC having wandered into/over fog, rather than low cloud. With a bit of luck you'd be above or close to the top of this - then you would climb to get clear, turn 180 back, being VMC ish, and return to the wonderful sight of terra firma below.

But finally, DON'T treat this as any more than last chance survival if you've been stupid enough to somehow get it this situation, which as others have, said, you should never, ever, get into.

[SASless]

I will not be harsh....I will not be harsh....wrong.

Chopper,

In a democratic society the majority carries the issue. I find your last post troubling. Some very experienced and capable folks here have invariably uttered the words along the line of "don't allow yourself to get into this situation." You will note that seems to be the majority view. Those opinions were arrived at over years and years of helicopter flying. They were being polite in the way they said it to you.

The object lesson here appears to be...."Don't let it happen to you....be on guard...be alert....and just do not let it happen."

If your mindset includes the idea of "but if it does then what I will do".....means you are not placing the importance of what the guys are telling you into the correct perspective.

There is no one right answer on what to do if you do go IIMC....but for sure it becomes a moot issue if you never do. You will not become an accident statistic if you never go IIMC....odds are greatly in favor you shall if you do go IIMC. It is easy to avoid....if you keep your wits about you and avoid those situations that lead to the exposure.

One needs to have a plan for such events....that does not hurt...but it starts with being instrument trained, current, and proficient. Not just legally current and proficient...but able to comfortably fly the aircraft on instruments. It also requires an aircraft with the means to conduct IFR flight....and be in an area where IFR flight can be conducted safely. Shy of that.....and you are headed towards that stack of statistics we all read about.

I do not play with snakes.....I would never play with Rattlesnakes or even consider it for any reason. IIMC is a big old nasty tempered Rattlesnake.

I will now step down off my soap box and yield the floor to others.:E

[Helinut]

I am not happy about accepting the premise for your question, at least for daytime flying over non-hostile terrain. Your question assumes implicitly fairly inexperienced pilots.

Bluntly, during the day, if the pilot is so incompetent to get himself inadvertent IMC (rather than doing all the good things others have suggested to keep the aircraft safe) his likely survival time in IMC will probably be measured in seconds, uness he/she is very lucky. If the pilot cannot slow down/turnaround/land as conditions deteriorate, he is so far behind the curve that he will lose it when going IMC.

This does not answer your question, but I believe you are asking the wrong question. Don't get in the situation: during the day you don't need to.

Night time is more difficult. The chances of going inadvertent IMC are much higher, because any pilot may not "see it coming". In conditions where you can maintain surface visual contact, night time can (infrequently) approximate to
day flying. However, aside from these circumstances there is always the possibility of going IMC without warning. So you have to expect it and plan for it. Plan diversions, fuel pland for those diversions, use a helicopter with stabilisation or fly two crew....

It does vary depending upon conditions. Some countries don't allow non-IFR night flying. Others have "almost IFR rules" for night flying - there is a reason for this.

Be very careful about non-(full)IFR night flying. Only go when the forecast and all reports are really good. Plan the flight and diversion in great detail.

Be in the mindset that you will only go if............. NOT you will go unless.

It is appropriate to think of your options for night flying, but I don't think there is a simple single option - it all depends on a host of factors.

[Upon reviewing this I see I have covered the same ground as SASLESS, but I won't remove it - may be yet another person's will move you a little]

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

er, SALT please somebody. I can imagine it may be.....??

[Pat Malone]

I've never disagreed with anything Nick Lappos has ever said, but I'm going to do so now.
I believe the last thing a low-time pilot in an unstabilised helicopter should do when encountering inadvertent IMC is put the machine in an even more unstable condition by trying to turn through 180 degrees.
And as for trying to tell someone – don't even think about pushing any buttons and splitting your attention.
Straight ahead, lever down gently, ball in the middle, back to 40kt and about 300fpm and promise God you'll never be as stupid again, if only he'll let you off this time...

[diethelm]

How about another approach,

Get an instrument rating. If you are going to pay to fly around and build time, why not work on the rating. We should all have IFR skills even when we do not anticipate flying in IFR.

Secondly, if you are going to buy a ship, acknowledge that most accidents are caused by loss of situational awareness. Equip the ship properly. With the help of a regular contributor who is very generous with his time, he has helped lay out a panel for all necessary instrumentation on my VFR ship for IFR flight. The incremental cost is relatively minor.

With the skills learned in the IFR training and a properly equipped ship, you will have every option available in the event you enter IMC and will be able to make a calm and prudent decision.

[thecontroller]

i'm amazed the number of aircraft flying that do not have an attitude indicator (AI). they only cost a few thousand, which is bugger all compared to the cost of a helicopter, even an r22.

it doesnt matter what method you use in IMC, without an AI you will be upside down in a matter of seconds in an unstabilised small helicopter.

try this.... go flying with a fellow pilot/instructor. tell him to stay close on the controls (and keep a good lookout) while you try to keep straight and level with your eyes closed. i guarantee you wont last long before you're in a turn/dive/climb without knowing it.

then add the panic factor into the equation... and you'll realise why helicopters and poor weather are a lethal combination

[giveitsome]

Hey Chops.

First up good stuff for throwing it out there so you can increase your knowledge about this topic.

I offer the following:

Your initial post starts with the heading that states IFR question and then describes "guys if you are a vfr pilot and happen to find yourself in imc conditions"

This really is the start and finish point to your question. As others have already stated you can't be in IFR (Limited VMC conditions) with a VFR mindset and VFR/GF training.

VFR and IFR are two very different types of operations and ACFT and crews are set up accordingly whether you are FW or RW. How do you avoid being in marginal VMC/IMC?

Answer-It all starts at the pre-flight planning stage. WX, Notams, Certification of ACFT, profficiency, experience, ratings, Rules and regs, Fuel, LSALT etc all need to be applied to the situation BEFOREyou launch. This will mean some of the time you as the PIC will need to knock back the tasks that will place you and your ACFT in these situations. Folks will not want to hear that they can't proceed on their planned flight or the mission is cancelled due wx, however that is why you are a PROFESSIONAL AVIATOR, and are paid the big bucks for your COMD Decisions.


A large proportion of accidents/incidents both military and civil result from penetration from VMC into limited VMC/IMC conditions. The folks that become accidents in these situations are the ones with little to no instrument flying training or rating, the ones that are recorded as incidents are either lucky or have the required instrument skills and rating and are able to conduct an IIMC recovery and recover via an instrument app or Radar vector to cloud break etc. Again planning is the key.

You should avoid seeking a formula (recipe type answer) to your question as each situation is different. Take stock of what the pros are telling you and rewind the situation back to the pre-flight planning and pre-launch stage.

If you don't already have an Inst Rating you should consider going and getting one as this will inevitably add to your bag of tricks and will make you more employable in the long run and give you some excellent skills which you may one day need.

Avoid the Recipe/Formula response. If you fail to plan, you are planning to fail.

IMHO

Give It Some



:ok:

[paco]

Back to the question: What IF, regardless of how you got there (the trouble with teaching some people "a little bit of IF" is that they think they have to use it).

This actually happend to two friends of mine, one an experienced ag pilot trying to get back to the South across Inkpen Ridge (in Hampshire, for those who haven't been to Wallop) and the other was in N Ireland chasing terrorists in 'orrible weather, somewhere near Omagh, both in Bell 47s, and the first one without the instrument pack, so it doesn't just happen to inexperienced pilots. A moment's inattention will do it. The one in N Ireland just climbed up and got Aldergrove ATC to position him over Lough Neagh, where he descended through it, and the one at inkpen ridge went into autorotation and came out of it backwards.

I think the key to this problem is to descend, since gravity will help keep the wings level. Without any IR experience, I certainly wouldn't try anything more than the gentlest of turns, and the only reason I would do that would be to get closer to the last known wind direction.

I'm with rotorspeed, in that most machines would allow some survivability in the event of crash (sorry, positive landing), especially a Bell 206. If I remember rightly, the rotorway exec is rigged to go to a 45 knot attitude automatically if the engine quits.

If I got away with it I would make a mental note to buy my guardian angel a crate of beer. The N Ireland guy certainly will - his engine quit about 30 seconds after landing through lack of fuel.

Phil

[Heliport]

Choppersquad knows he shouldn't get himself into such a dangerous situation. All he's asked is what he should do if he finds himself in an emegency situation "due to whatever stupid circumstances" he's put himself there.
Of course people shouldn't, but the sad fact is they do.

It may be that any advice (however good) is academic because he's likely to lose control in seconds rather than minutes and die anyway, but all he's asking is what he should try to do while he still has control.

[Droopystop]

Interested by this advice to reduce speed. If you get on the wrong side of the power curve, your speed becomes unstable there by increasing work load.

My advice - as soon as you start to see whispy bits around you, dump the lever before you loose sight of the ground, find a field, land. If it has a pub in the corner, so much the better. If you go IMC get your eyes moving around the instrument panel like your life depended on it.

[soggyboxers]

Choppersquad,

What to do if you inadvertently enter IMC is not something which can be answered by a simple formula, like 2+2 = ? It would depend on the circumstances and it's worthe listening to the advice of the other posters here. The main thing is - 'Do not panic!'. Much easier said than done I know. Secondly, take a split second to think of what you believe to be in your vicinity before acting. Sometimes it may be better to descend slowly ahead (but you can't do that if there's something large and hard ahead of you!) and sometimes it may be better to turn (but you can't do that if you're in a narrow valley or have other obstructions to your side or that you've just flown past, now behind you). I'll illustrate what I mean and why it's a VERY BAD thing to become inadvertent IMC by citing an example of what happened on an offshore contract, with an instrument rated pilot, in an IFR machine many years ago:

A moderately experienced pilot offshore was flying single pilot VFR in an IFR equipped (SAS and full instruments) Bell 212. It was a nice, clear morning, but with quite a few fog patches around. He was making an approach to a large production platform (rising to several hundred feet above the sea) when he entered a fog patch. He thought he would come out of the other side before he got to the platform, which he had on his weather radar. Even though in fog, he could occasionally glimpse the sea surface below him. When he got to less than a mile from the platform he was still in fog and wisely decided to make a 180 turn as there were no other obstacles. He had already reduced his airspeed, but instead of remaining on instruments, he tried to get a visual reference in the turn and, his instrument scan now broken, he became disorientated. His airspeed reduced to less than 20 knots, angle of bank was too high and he rapidly descended. With insufficient power left to him to recover at his airspeed, he flew into the sea.

So, take in all the advice given to you here, but try to never, ever have to use it. :ok:

[ShyTorque]

"er, SALT please somebody. I can imagine it may be.....??"

Safety ALTitude. Military term, more or less the same MSA.

[Choppersquad]

thank you guys
i feel all posts are worth reading.
however heliport has made my point again.i know it is not a simple answer but sometimes old school looks at pilots as if it has never happened to them or never will .as we know atpl cpl
pilots make a lot of silly mistakes and some pay the worst price of all .a ppl with 20 hours knows he should not fly into imc .but he may at somtime of his life.he knows not to fly into the wires etc etc, my point is when all comes do all and your in it what do you do ,thats what i was looking for from the posts .please do not scare future pilots off by answering the question in such a way that it was silly to be there in the first place or low time pilots will never post a question.

thanks guys
choppersquad

[jbrereton]

The best advice I could offer is to do some basic instrument flying then at least if you go IMC you will be able to keep the thing straight and level.

If you go into solid cloud climb to a safe altitude and call ATC with a PAN. They will do all the thinking for you and you on concencentrate on staying slippery side down.

It does take a lot of concentration to instrument fly in an unstable aircraft.

Carrying out a controlled descent is all very well if you know the cloud base and turning back is good advice as long as you know the reverse course is clear. But do not carry out a panicky 30 degree bank or you will become disorientated and end up crashing.

The moral of the story is to be aware at all times of the terrain you are flying over.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Thanks ST


I've gone in the soup before while careful scud running. I knew exactly what was behind me, so I stayed perfectly calm, lowered the lever slightly to ENSURE I came out of it, and made a very gentle backtracking starboard turn until I saw the ground again. Very sensible advice. The cloudbase was at least 1000' or I woudn't have been up there. This was a H300 which I believe to a good stable machine which is quite difficult to get into unusual attitudes with a bit of speed on. The machine in question had everything to get you out of trouble though including an HSI, so may have cheated a little in that respect. See, if you've got it, you will be tempted to use it !

( Chopersquad - don't let them bully you - i've got used to it now - if you've got a burning question, ask it ! It could get you out of trouble one day. They pretend to be big and bad and burly, but they're all pusscats underneath ! )

[MightyGem]

FS...
SALT please somebody
As already stated, this is the Safety Altitude. If you look on a half mill chart, you will see blue numbers all over the chart, a large figure and a small figure(so 39 is 3900ft). This is the altitude of the highest known obstacle(terrain and objects) in that area. To calculate the SALT(in the military, I assume it's the same for civilians), you add 1000ft and then round up to the nearest 100ft.

[giveitsome]

'If you look on a half mill chart, you will see blue numbers all over the chart, a large figure and a small figure(so 39 is 3900ft). This is the altitude of the highest known obstacle(terrain and objects) in that area. To calculate the SALT(in the military, I assume it's the same for civilians), you add 1000ft and then round up to the nearest 100ft.'

[b}Sounds great if you fly and live in the UK for other countries (yes there's more than one) consult your own countries military or civil procedures.[/b],

:\

[Whirlybird]

Good thread. :ok: Good question, and I'm glad someone asked it. Of course going inadvertantly into cloud shouldn't happen, but it can. It happened to me flying a f/w aircraft, which is much more stable, so it wasn't so bad. I thought I was flying into haze which I could see through, then realised it was cloud which I couldn't. :eek: I was able to descend gently, knowing I'd come out of it before I reached the ground.

As several people have said, what you do may depend on the situation. But if at all possible, I'd descend gently, avoid turns, and definitely avoid anything else like talking on the radio. With a PPL(H), and only 5 hours instrument training, probably a long time ago, that will take 110% concentration anyway. And concentrating on breathing deeply will help to prevent panic.

One thing I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned is "the leans". If you're really in cloud with no visual references, you are very likely to feel that you're in a turn when you're not. For me, this happens particularly in the R22, for some reason. So TRUST YOUR INSTRUMENTS COMPLETELY!!!! It may be hard, but you have to do it. They are the only thing which might get you out of this situation alive.

[Thomas coupling]

God - he asked a simple question and most have complicated it beyond description.
lets go back to school, pretend you're all in an exam and you have just turned the first page over.....

Read the Question:hmm:

"...I am now in IMC and want to know what to do next..."

Choppersquad, this is what will happen for real, OK:

You will imediately depart from stable flight.

Either you will correct for it and maintain some sort of 'controlled' flight, upon which you MUST IMMEDIATELY consider the following (now you have bought time)(this is assuming it's happened in the UK)
(a) DO NOT do a 180 unless you can guarantee return to VMC within seconds. This will further exacerbate any leans or spatial disorientation feelings you are fighting off.
(b) DO NOT, repeat DO NOT, fly below 60kts indicated airspeed. Low speed flight in IMC is the quickest way to losing controlled flight by a non IR pilot.
(c) DO NOT descend in IMC unless you know the cloud base is well above the local terrain (1000'+)
(d) Try to change momentum in 1 dimension only: climb or speed up, or turn. Don't mix them.
(d) CLIMB to a height which you think is above the nearest high ground. Do this at around 60-70kts airspeed and max continuous power.
(e) Level off and then, only then, after you have calmed down, talk to anyone! (Ideally an ATC nearby). They will do their best to help you out of it.

All of the above is based on YOU being able to keep the machine relatively stable.

IN THE EVENT YOU CAN'T MAINTAIN HEIGHT/HDG AND SPEED:
The a/c will almost immediately begin a descending turn, the speed will increase to a deafening rush, the ball will depart way out left or right, you will overtorque, the Nr will decay and the ROD will probe new depths. The end will be very very quick.
The time has come for you to leave this world, my friend. Say your goodbyes. make some final transmissions to assist the AAIB / ATC / rescuers / friends and family....RELAX :\

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Well it seems everyone has got their own get out clause on this one - I just believe most pilots know what they can handle and for how long - the old perception of abilities corner - the best advice seems to be what ever you can do to safely get out of it, do it, but overall stay calm and remember the old ANC acronym, Aviate, Navigate and if you've got a spare brain cell available, Communicate ! It hurts more head on then butt down !

TFS

[Thomas coupling]

Great, thats answered his question then?:ugh:

Ironically the latest Gasco flight safety colour mag (Vol 41, No2) has an article on this very issue!!!

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Sorry to swing your superiority hammock TC - just relaying some FW experience too. ;)

[fulldownauto]

Sorry for joining this post late, but wanted to add something.

Want to find out what will happen when you go IMC without knowing 'What to do next'? Purchase a PC based simulator, doesn't matter which, X-Plane and MSFS do helicopters and aircraft, ELITE does aircraft only.

Takeoff, get a feel for the aircraft, then set the weather to IMC. You'll quickly get an idea of your capability to survive in IMC. If you can climb, pull out a chart and shoot an approach to the nearest airport you certainly have a better probability of surviving than if you struggle to keep it upright.

Now before we bash PC based simulators, I used MSFS and its Jetranger to practice for my IFR training and by flying it a way too many hours, I got to the point where I could do whole flights IFR/IMC, partial panel. When I stepped into the real aircraft and put the hood on, the hours I spent sitting on the computer paid off. While discussing the differences in Simulator/Real are beyond the scope of this discussion, I can say I was well in tune to the control inputs and instrument responses required to fly the aircraft. Even now I still practice with the simulator. When I get to fly in actual it feels no different than the simulator to me and thus I am able to fly to a high standard.

That's my advice, learn to fly on instruments, even if it's just with a simulator. You won't survive on numbered 'to do' lists upon entering IMC.

[jbrereton]

He's right you know I used to practice instrument procedures on Flt Sim and it helped. If I was going to a new airfield I would get the airfield plates and practice the approaches at home.

Great bit of kit.

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

The best advice is don't go IMC in the first place, That said for my first few years as a CPL I had trouble recognising my limits (Viss & Cloud base) Im pleased to say as time went by it got easier now I simply don't go IMC (Never)

Don't let your self get boxed in by low cloud & low viss, Slow down, Full carb heat? or Anti ice? Always leave a way out. This can be done you just have to turn away in time. Dont wait till you can't see the ground.

Don't go VFR on top either, Its not legal, If you have a power failure you have to descend through it and it easier to get boxed in.

Someone mentioned inadvertant IMC at 1000 ft AGL, This is not so realistic. When people end up IMC its normerly about 500ft or lower above the deck.

I wouldn't advise lowering the lever and decending at this low height.

The 180° turn might work hopefully you won't bump into anything or loose control during the turn.

TCs advice is good slow down to 60 knots and climb, When you break cloud request assistance and get a radar talkdown. if the cloud tops are high you have a big problem.

Other problem's carb icing? Airframe Icing? Induction icing?

I had a good friend who went inadvertant IMC a few years back, He requested assistance. He ended up flying into a hill killing everyone onboard. He was VFR rated but had about 15 hours instrument flight training (It's no guarantee)

Best advice is do what ever it takes to avoid IMC in the first place.

[rotorspeed]

TC

The trouble with your advice to climb is that you are committing the pilot to a full blown IFR flight now. What exactly is going to be the advice from the helpful ATC? Assuming they soon realise an ILS is out of the question, I guess they will try to find somewhere with a 1000ft + cloudbase to let down over. How long will that take them to work out? Vector you towards some friendly mil field for effectively a PAR perhaps? Whatever, it's all going to take quite a lot of time. Time that our VFR pilot has got to try and maintain control in IMC. And turn, and climb, descend etc. How good were you at listening to the RT when you were on day one of your IR training? And then how much fuel has he got? Quite possibly not enough to get to the desired let-down area, for it would be reasonable to assume that if he has got himself into IMC, the cloudbase might be, what, 300 - 500 ft, say? Where our nice 1000ft ceiling is KNOWN to be is likely to be some way away. Could be 30 mins flying. With panic building.

It is reasonable to think that our pilot, stupid though he was to get himself into IMC, probably realised his situation within no more than a few seconds. More than 10 seconds? I doubt it. So the chances are the cloudbase has not changed to hugely in that time. So by lowering down in a straight line carefully he will probably be out of it within another 10 seconds; 30 seconds max.

To me, that's a got a less high risk of disaster than your solution.

Agree not less than 60 kts though!

[Hilico]

I agree the PC flight sims are very good, but I'm also absolutely sure a hundred hours in 'IMC' on those won't give you as many as a hundred seconds in real-world bad weather so DON'T GET FALSELY CONFIDENT.

[Flying Lawyer]

TC
I'm probably being thick, but what did you mean by "this is assuming it's happened in the UK"?

______________

Good question, IMHO - I'm not qualified to offer any advice.
I suppose it depends upon experience to some extent, but my guess is that a PPL would be doing well if he lasted a minute before losing control of the helicopter. Instrument training under supervision is one thing; suddenly finding yourself IMC is quite another.

Many years ago (before there was any instrument training in the PPL course), through shear unmitigated stupidty on my part, I suddenly found myself in cloud while flying a Harvard. Luckily, I managed to do a 180 to VMC I knew was just behind me and got away with it, but it was a lesson learned. Even though I knew the aircraft well, and a fixed-wing is more stable, suddenly finding myself IMC was the most frightening experience I've ever had, or ever want, in an aircraft. I've done some instrument flying in fixed-wings since (under supervision) but I still don't think I'd get away with such stupidity in a helicopter.
"It's clear the other side of the ridge, we should be able to get through. Let's give it a try." Seemed like a reasonable suggestion at the time. It was clear the other side - as my friend, a much more experienced pilot who did get through, later confirmed. I was just relieved I was alive to do what I should have done in the first place - leave the Harvard at Redhill, catch a train home and worry about collecting the aircraft later.

[[email protected]]

Maybe being a bad pilot can save your life - I went on a job to a report of a crashed FW in the hills N of Swansea and the wx on scene was poor - we hover taxied up a hillside in cloud, homing onto the 121.5 beacon that had been activated. Suddenly, through the murk we saw 3 guys standing by the edge of a treeline waving. Thinking that they might have seen something we landed and sent the winchman to chat to them. It transpired that it was the pilot and pax - he had gone inadvertant and tried a 180 but washed off all the speed in the turn and stalled the aircraft. Fortunately for them, the stall ocurred at about 50' above the trees and the aircraft parked itself gently nose down so they all got out alive. If he had been instrument trained, he might have kept 90 kts on in the turn and wiped them all out on the hillside.
I guess the moral is that if you are going to fly into the ground then do it slowly.

[havoc]

Something to think about with altitudes if you are going to climb, (only food for thought during flight planning)

What are the cloud tops, you may break out
Freezing level (seasonal)

Not sure how this works outside US but

Min Safe altitude within 25 nm of an airport

If you have to go above 3000 in the clouds build in a buffer for those guys that are on an IFR plan, plan to go to 3500 or 4500 for example, common VFR altitudes that someone on an IFR plan wont be at.

Dont climb into a thunderstorm

Make your instruments read correct.

Better to be on the ground wishing you were flying then in the air wishing you stayed on the ground.

Dont fly VFR in IMC common tendency is to slow down by reducing power, accept that you IMC and dont compound the problem by yanking in power and create an unusual attitude.

[Thomas coupling]

FL: what I meant by 'flying in the UK' was that my advice was based on the type of topography we have on this island. That is to say on the whole it can be generally hilly, not mountainous, just hilly. Unless you are well east and south, the chances are there are some cumulo granite around.

In the US, it would all depend on which state you were flying in when you went IMC, I suppose - can't comment, except to say, you could fly for miles over the plains and not see a mole hill.

We also have the sea as an option, but thats another story!


To rotorspeed - its all academic, isn't it. I think we're more or less all agreed, your life is being counted in seconds once a PPL non IMC trained pilot goes into cloud. I wouldnt go down though unless I felt almost certain the c/b was relatively high above the terrain.

Scud running is the next worse thing to going inadvertent IMC, too! Clowns and dick***ds go scud running on a cloudy day.


Havoc - read the question will you - what on earth are you on about now???

[Bertie Thruster]

cs, assuming you are a vmc pilot with no imc training, the first respondent to your question (Shytorque),gave you about the best advice you could follow. Even so there would be a significant chance you would die.

[flyer43]

If he had been instrument trained, he might have kept 90 kts on in the turn and wiped them all out on the hillside.

Although I see what you mean, an instrument trained pilot wouldn't normally have placed himself in such a position in the first place. The accident you describe has all the trappings of a typical "sunday pilot" not checking the weather properly before setting off.
An instrument trained pilot (hopefully flying a fully instrument equpped machine of course!) would have climbed to a safe height (minimum sector altitude or whatever). Maintaining 90 kts would then have been the safest option.......

Shytorque has probably explained the best option for a non IF trained pilot inadvertently enterring IMC. Get back to basics - wings level, ball in the middle etc. If you are then able to manage a gentle turn under such conditions without getting your head in a spin, or the aircraft for that matter, turn towards the lowest ground in the area before descending.
Shytorque's last suggestion says it all - 8) Next time plan your flight so you KNOW your terrain and turn back a lot earlier before you get yourself killed. - although you should add "check the en-route weather thoroughly and, if in doubt, don't set off unless you are sure you can make the whole flight under conditions for which you are competent.....

[Oogle]

Flyer 43

an instrument trained pilot wouldn't normally have placed himself in such a position in the first place.

Unfortunately there are some pilots who would think that they are somehow bullet-proof because they hold the rating. If going inadvertent IMC they have a much better chance of controlling the aircraft solely on instruments but what about the obstacles nearby?

If you are flying visually, then the IFR LSALT is not at the forefront of your mind. You may plan a quasi "escape plan" but unless you know exactly where the inadvertent IMC is going to occur, there is alot of hit and miss.

Having an instrument rating does not guarantee anything. And as I heard on a TV commercial once - "I should know, I have one".

[flyer43]

Oogle

Point taken, but what I was trying to suggest is that an IF rated pilot would normally plan the flight taking terrain into account. He may very well start the flight off VMC, but if he entered IMC inadvertently or otherwise he would revert to the original plan and amend his height and heading accordingly.

[[email protected]]

I didn't say instrument rated - just trained which is the same sort of PPL level that we have talked about earlier in the thread. I would expect an IR pilot to do as flyer43 said and plan the trip better. This guy was a PPL 'sunday flyer' who was just very lucky to mess up and live to tell the tale.
Whilst I deplore scud running like TC, I also have some sympathy with those who have to pay for their flying and only have limited opportunities to get airborne - they are generally more likely to 'explore' the met forecast in the hope it is better than expected. Sadly these are the same guys who often end up as statistics.

[Whirlybird]

Whilst I deplore scud running like TC, I also have some sympathy with those who have to pay for their flying and only have limited opportunities to get airborne - they are generally more likely to 'explore' the met forecast in the hope it is better than expected. Sadly these are the same guys who often end up as statistics.


Some of these people are overconfident too. I remember, as a very low hours PPL(H), going to a fly-in in showery conditions with a lot of low cloud. I flew around the hills, and kept a long way from any cloud. When I got there, I met someone who'd flown in an R22 over the Welsh mountains!!! I couldn't believe he'd done it, but assumed, since he had more hours than me (though still very few in real terms) that he knew what he was doing. Looking back, I'd say he was overconfident. And why? OK, he wanted to go flying, and get to the fly-in; so did I. But flying round the hills was reasonably safe, and gave you more options to land if necessary. Some PPLs think that the fact a helicopter can slow down and land means they can take risks with impunity. Not sensible! :eek:

[delta3]

I'am afraid there is no simple answer, as many of us I've been there several times, and several of the suggested approaches were used depending of the circumstances. But one thing is for shure, unless you are trained for it STAY OUT.

It all depends on your skill and the circumstances, but one thing is for shure, you don't want to be in there unprepared : not only heli-attitude wise, but the whole situational awareness. Even manipulating a GPS in IMC/Single pilot is very very difficult, especially in a light heli.
At 800' I would first try to descend. Normally you will not enter cloud just with one bang, but just see it very late, so look back away from it to find a last visible spot and lock on to that, so probably meaning some turning back and landing, but still essentailly in VMC.
In mountainous area's you probably will want to climb out, but you will need to know the height of the cloud and the mountains.
Once in the cloud you will have no time to do some botlang reading.... Flying over the cloud requires prior meteo knowledge, you don't want to get stuck at 5000' in the cloud or with a solid deck below you, unless you are IFR rated. Even when trained, without auto-pilot it is very demanding to fly, so you will spend incredible mental energy and last not very long.


The last years two full IFR Agusta 109E's crashed of people I know, in the fog with high time CPL's at the commands, that should make it clear that you don't want to be there. Set your personal attitude to avoidance.



Delta3

[soggyboxers]

Sadly, as a number of posters have said, even having some instrument training is no guarantee of surviving an unplanned entry into cloud. I had a former student who I had 'chopped' from a sponsored CPL course. He continued his training at another school, paying for the course himself. By the time he'd finished he'd done quite a bit more than the minimum 10 instrument hours required for his CPL. A couple of years later when I was in a single-pilot IFR equipped Twin Squirrel I was shut down at an airfield in southeast England because the weather was too bad and I was amazed to hear a 206 flying. He obviousl;y suddenly spotted my helicopter and landed - it was my former student. I asked him what on earth he was trying to do and he (rather sheepishly) explained that he was trying to press on back to Biggin Hill because he was being paid by the hour and he had a lot of finacial pressure to repay the debts he'd run up from paying to finish his training. Not too many weeks later I heard the incredibly sad news that he'd departed Biggin Hill in marginal weather, then decided to turn back after going IMC and crashed into trees on the North Downs. He was a friend as well as a former student and to hear the awful news of the needless loss of his life was extremely harrowing.
So please CS, for the sake of those that care for you, if not yourself, try not to need any of the advice given to you hear except - do everything you can to stay out of cloud if you're not qualified and equipped to do so. :hmm:

[havoc]

Sorry Thomas for the vague post,

The question was, What would you do finding yourself in the clouds at 800 feet over unfamilar territory.

The point of my post was to add some thought for consideration before you leave the flight planning table. Of course the best option is not to end up in the clouds in the first place.

Unfortunately if you find yourself IMC and unprepared, hopefully you are lucky. The points posted give you a something to work with.

Been Inadvertant IMC once in 20 years of flying, Honduras flying a night Dustoff mission (UH-1), during their burning season. Flew the plan we had and got home ok despite crude ATC and some nervous flight docs on board.

[Banjo]

As a small addition to this thread I would like to say that I have over the years flown in excess of twenty five different R22 and R44 ships. A large number of these had an AI that would fall all over and that most of them would do it fairly quickly after erecting while still on the pad.

One maintanance guy said it was due to all the EOL's carried out in them in the training role and the general banging and bouncing of the airframe by students landing. Not sure if this is true but had to agree tha ships we did the majority of EOL's in did have the worst AI's.

The point being that when you are talking about the bottom end of the instrument equipment market ie. that fitted to an R22 compared to IFR S76 and its subsequent maintanance or lack off then it may well be that you can not believe your instruments.

Stay out of the cloud is the only sure way to gaurantee coming home.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

You can't always guarantee what's over the hill. If you're confident of your abilities and are preprared to fly just below the cloud base to reduce ground noise nuisance, then this is acceptable as far as I am concerned. I would never take any risk in any flying machine which could endanger the lives of myself and pax. This is what I meant by scud running. Not dodging through the clouds at 200' agl as i've seen many times first hand. You can always land a chopper, anywhere and at any time. I have done this before in the name of safety and will do it again without hesitation.

[212man]

Soggyboxers; well that confirms my guess as to who you are!

I was flying on that day and well remember the conditions. I also remember seeing, on the TV news that evening, the face of the senior policeman who was in the area doing dog training at the time, and who was the first on the scene; he was pale and very shocked (and that's a senior policeman who will have seen God knows what in the past.)

I won't describe what actually happened, but if anyone is in any doubt as to the true horror of the consequences of this type of accident, read the AAIB report. Very sad indeed (and the example I used on a previous thread about the mistaken belief that throwing money and hours at going solo is not necessarily the best option when training).

There are many adages in aviation, often true and based on hard won experience. A couple that might be pertinent in this discussion are:


"The superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgement to avoid putting himself in a situation where he has to use his superior flying skills", and..

"It is better to be on the ground wishing you were flying, than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground!"

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

AIB report... (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_026161.pdf)

Just read it for the first time. Sometimes experience counts for nothing. RIP.

[BlenderPilot]

It depends on

What is the terrain like? imagine going IMC around here where the lowest elevation to get out of the area is about 10,500 FT and there are rapidly rising mountains up to 18,000, and when people usually go inadvertent IMC its near the mountains where there are powerline crossings as high as 1000 feet. If you get into IMC in the flat part of Texas, well its much easier.

What kind of IMC you are talking about? if its low clouds only not a big problem, but if it's a thunderstorm, big problem, you cannot continue toward a thunderstorm. Will you encounter icing?

What aircraft you are flying? if you are in well equipped powerful helicopter that you can rapidly climb in, it helps, if you are in piston or a in a heavy JetRanger, the situation changes considerably.

How much fuel do you have? A PAR Approach can take forever, so do vectoring. So think about that before calling ATC.

What kind of ATC services are available? If you are in country such as in the US in where there is Radar Service everywhere, great, but if you are in Mexico where over 90 percent of the country you cannot even contact ATC below 5000 feet, there are only 40 airports with ATC, and about 10 with Radar for a country 8 times larger than the UK. Well its different.

Everytime I fly in conditions were I could encounter IMC I always have charts with me, know what is ahead of me, and have an idea of what the weather is like is ahead of me, and always know what I will do be it a 180, climb, descend, BEFORE I go into the clouds. That is if I am flying a good, powerful, equipped helicopter, if I don't have any of the above, well I will just not risk it.

[212man]

Squirrel,

It was this one: AAIB Report 5/1990, G-SHBB (quoted in the link you give) that I/SB was referring to, but the one you quote is very similar. Terrible:(

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Aplogies for that - The one quoted above is still very pertinent reading in relation to this thread. There's been a lot of bad luck with fatal machine losses from Biggin. Anyone flying in or out must watch the weather here. The temptation to get to the blue sky beyond the ridge is often deadly.

[Flying Lawyer]

I agree.
As anyone familiar with the area would already have guessed from my reference to the ridge and turning back to leave the Harvard at Redhill, that was the ridge.
I was actually trying to get back to Duxford, rather than into Biggin, but your point still stands.

[Thomas coupling]

flying squirrel: what is your definition of "scud running" then?

I am always very very wary of an aviator who thinks he/she is confident with their ability.....

as far as noise nuisance as an excuse for scud running goes - I've heard it all now:confused:

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

ok - I made a mistake in terminology - get the rope out why don't you and hoist me right up. Have a nice weekend. I think you need one !:cool:

[Jonp]

...Just to add my 2 pennies worth of experience for what its worth to the original Q.

My arse still hurts where I kicked myself for once getting into cloud. I will NEVER do it again. It is the most scary thing knowing you ARE going to die.

Don't ever do it.

One bit of advice, and something that has not been mentioned here. You go directly to your instrument scan and take whatever action you need to (All discussed here earlier). The problem occurs is that although you are looking at your instruments, you keep looking out for a visual reference, then when you come back inside, it takes a while to get back 'on' your instruments.

My limited advice is really concentrate on your instruments, and use just peripheral vision to look outside for the ground, don't keep turning your head, it screws your orientation loads

That's all, for what its worth

Ah.. CAVOK, its good to fly

Jon

[ConwayB]

There should be no such thing as Inadvertant IMC. It should be a conscious decision to enter cloud and you should do so with a plan in mind. (Anyway, that's the mantra in the military.)

Flying IMC in Black Hawk and Chinook is easy; lots of power, lots of systems to help you out... but in a lighter helicopter not designed for IMC... I shudder at the thought and hope I don't find myself in such a situation.

My two cents worth? You are in a helicopter so there should be no excuse from flying into cloud without some sort of warning.

1.Make the decision early to turn around before you get to cloud.
2.Keep the rotor in the green arc and airspeed where you need it.
3.KEEP FLYING THE BLOODY AIRCRAFT and keep it away from any goats that are in the clouds (apologies to Gary Larson).
4.Try and find a place to land and wait out the bad weather.

If that doesn't work, then there are a lot of guys who have given good advice and who have more experience than me... so do what I do and try and learn something new from them that will hopefully save your life and those of your passengers.

Safe flying.

[Aesir]

The question was: "Inadvertent IMC - What to do if it happens?"

A good friend of mine once told me that it would be a good idea to pull down your pants and turn around in your seat and sit down on the cyclic!

It wouldn´t do much good but at least it would give the aircraft accident investigation board AAIB something to think about :O

[FixedRotaryWing]

1. Fly the helicopter.
2. Climb away from ground.
3. Do NOT try to land in IMC.
4. If a 180° turn does not work, ask radar for help.

[Gaseous]

All good advice so far but I haven't seen a reference to this yet:

Look straight down - at least a glance!

My own experience of one such event, forward vision was lost but the ground was feintly visible straight down. Under these circumstances it would seem reasonable to slow and descend. If there is any ground contact it seems sensible to not lose it.

In this instance I found clearer air lower, turned round and went home. It worked for me.

(Oh, and I was considerably lower than the forecast cloud base, in the climb, just after taking off.)

[flyer43]

Gaseous
My own experience of one such event, forward vision was lost but the ground was feintly visible straight down. Under these circumstances it would seem reasonable to slow and descend. If there is any ground contact it seems sensible to not lose it.
As some others have mentioned on this thread, many pilots do not have any significant instrument training or experience and may therefore find themselves experiencing "the leans" as soon as they inadvertently enter cloud. Looking down and finding a "hole" below you may be very well, but the simple act of moving your head around when in cloud could precipitate a serious case of "the leans" and help you to reach the ground far quicker than you had intended!!

ConwayB
There should be no such thing as Inadvertant IMC. In an ideal world there should indeed not be. "Good" pilots plan everything so they "never" get into situations that they are not expecting........... I don't think so!!
Unfortunately, a large number of private pilots, and quite a few "professional" pilots have little or no instrument training due to high training costs, lack of interest and many other reasons. These are the guys that generally find themselves "inadvertently" entering IMC and struggling ......... This often occurs due to perceived pressure to complete the flight. Your passengers are pushing you to get there - you've got "gohomeitis" or "pressonitis" - your boss wants you to do the job as the client is "very important" etc etc.....
Nothing is more important than keeping yourself and all others about you safe. So, think very carefully before you set off and, if in doubt - DON'T go!

[Oogle]

Aw........ come on guys. It is easy to sit back here typing away our collective knowledge into this thread and people saying you should do this and should do that.

WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE IN THE AIR AND WE HAVE ALL HAD OUR SCARES! Learn from them and pass this onto our fellow pilots.

As for this question (based on a pilot with no IR training) - don't go into cloud! SIMPLE.

If you do, try and remember back to this thread (but I guarantee you won't remember squat when the pucker factor gets up high enough).

Go out with an instructor and go under the hood to see what it is really like and I'll guarantee you will remember the words - "Don't go into cloud"

End of sermon.:8

[FixedRotaryWing]

This thread is not about "do not enter IMC", it is about "how do I survive IMC".

Most accidents in IMC are controlled flight into terrain. If you cannot leave IMC almost immediately, DO NOT FLY BELOW A SAVE ALTITUDE unless performing an instrument approach.

And while flying in IMC in helicopters, KEEP FORWARD SPEED for normal cruise. This will stabilize the aircraft.

[hihover]

As has been pointed out several times, the original post was about "what to do if...." There has been lots of good advice posted in response and all of it relevant.

I am concerned, however, at the level of acceptance that "inadvertant IMC" is just something that we as pilots have to deal with. We even have an experienced instructor admitting to inadvertant entry twice - but it was his student's fault!!! I cannot think of any circumstances in a helicopter, GA, by day, that mitigate an inadvertant entry into IMC.

IMHO it should be renamed "Negligent Flying" and investigated in the same way as, eg. inadvertant entry into controlled airspace.

Maybe I am missing something, and if so, I would be very keen to hear of any circumstances in GA helicopter ops where "inadvertant IMC" should not be renamed "negligent flying."

[ShyTorque]

Hihover;

"I am concerned, however, at the level of acceptance that "inadvertant IMC" is just something that we as pilots have to deal with. We even have an experienced instructor admitting to inadvertant entry twice - but it was his student's fault!!! I cannot think of any circumstances in a helicopter, GA, by day, that mitigate an inadvertant entry into IMC."

I think you are possibly referring to myself. At the time I was instrument rated and flying an IFR aircraft with an autopilot on a military operational conversion unit. That isn't quite the same as a low hours PPL student flying by himself in an unstabilised helicopter, possibly without full instrumentation. At the end of a military student's flying training in those circumstances he has to be allowed to stretch the limits a little - one of the students was actually a second tourist who should have known better; he left the helicopter world not too long after for the airlines because by his own admission, he didn't feel up to the rigours of low level military flying. I was caught out on a couple of occasions by those students doing the unexpected when faced with bad weather, my error I admit. It was a long time ago (almost 20 years) and with the benefit of more experience I wouldn't be caught again.

In the commercial world also, any helicopter pilot can quite often be pressed to stretch the VFR limits a little - there lies the great danger if the pilot doesn't have an IFR option and hasn't paid sufficient attention to it. The trick is knowing when to change the plan and when to say enough.

With regard to your proposal to have pilots investigated for going inadvertently IMC - how would you police that, or even catch them? It would quite possibly result in pilots doing ANYTHING to regain VMC, possibly with an increased likelihood of doing something stupid. It would only be spiteful in any event, as a low-time pilot in an unstabilised aircraft who goes inadvertent IMC tends to make his own punishment.

[hihover]

Shy Torque,

There is quite a difference between inadvertant IMC and taking the option of an IFR recovery - as I know you are aware. It sounds to me that in your particular cases, you were caught out and opted for the latter, which, based on your experience and capabilies, was an option that you had probably already considered given that you were being "invited" to fly in poor weather to get the job done.

Both in military aviation and commercial, I have found myself making similar decisions in order to get the job done. The decisions were thought through and executed in the knowledge that there was a plan.

My point is simply that I cannot see any circumstances in a GA helicopter where a pilot bumbles into cloud (unplanned, not thought through), by day, and should not be questioned about the circumstances that led to the bumble!

I take your points about the difficulty in policing inadvertant IMC/negligent flying and the potential for the pilot to go to any length to regain VMC, nonetheless, the message I read from this thread is that inadvertant IMC happens (not plan B recoveries) and is an inherrent risk associated with flying. It isn't an inherrent risk, it's negligence. How do we get that message across without policing?

[ShyTorque]

I think the accident reports speak loudly enough and Darwin's theory seems to hold true enough.

[hihover]

Well, Darwin's theory may well tidy up some loose ends, however, if the accident reports spoke loudly enough, we would not be having this discussion.

I seem to remember that, as a military pilot, even with an instrument rating, I was not allowed within 200 feet of the cloudbase unless I had a good reason. Now, I can't remember if that was a guideline from the old and bold or if it was a rule. Either way, it sounds like good sense to me.