What does this mean then?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Hadn't flown for three months, so today a check ride with an instructor. After landing he asks "well, should I sign you off as fit to hire solo then?". I make vaguely negative noises, being less than satisfied with my performance, not surprisingly I wasn't flying as well as I have done ... and he signs me off.

I wonder, if I'd said totally confidently that yes of course he should sign me off, I'd flown perfectly, would he have failed me on the grounds of ludicrous overconfidence? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Now, the reason I'm posting this in the instructor's forum: Clearly the punter's attitude to how well s/he's flying is something you observe during a check ride and take into account, but would the punter's answer to a "how well do you think you did" question ever actually make the difference between them passing the check and failing the check?

[BEagle]

Personally I think that your FI acted like a bit of a knob. The "How do you think that went?" ploy is one of the biggest cop-outs there is.

The FI should tell you there and then whether your performance was safe enough or whether you need more dual practice.. Nothing else. Then, if necessary, you can discuss aspects of the flight over a cup of tea or something later.

[foxmoth]

Whilst probably not being the deciding factor in a pass or fail this question can show that you know that you had faults and are aware of what they were ( generally aceptable), rather than just thinking that you did OK and have no awareness of your faults (not so acceptable).

[Miserlou]

I have both received and used similar comments.

Your self critique is important; he knows you know what you did wrong and are thereby in a better situation to judge whether you should fly yourself. I think when you use this comment you should back it up with a positive, reassuring debrief.

I have used a similar technique in that two people were wanting checkout to a large tailwheel type. One of them found that the crosswind had increased so much so that he no longer felt comfortable and requested a break until later in the day. This was an excellent decision as I had less visibilty and less controls than he did from where I was sitting but he was actually doing fine: the crosswind was max demonstrated.

By the third landing with the other chap (who alledgedly had more relevant experience than the first) I had to offer him the opportunity to make the same decision as the first, including my support for the other's decision. When he chose to continue we made one final landing, the fourth which had required my intervention, and I made the decision to stop.

One chap completed his check-out a couple of weeks later, the other...didn't.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I can't agree with BEagle about this.

I always like to find out how a student percieved a flight. It gives a good insight into their personality. Asking what their opinion is, is not a cop-out of any kind as long as you make sure that you give out your comments fully.

If I see them doing something daft, but they don't mention it when asked, I want to know why they think something was acceptable when I considered it to be a load of cr*p. I can then hopefully re-educate them and show them the standards that I deem acceptable, not what they think are.

So yes, a student/PPL's attitude is one of the most important things I look for after basic handling skills.

However, in this case if the PPL was a bit unsure then I wouldn't just sign them off, since confidence is an essential tool. Too much can be lethal, but so can not enough. If they feel they need an extra flight, then so be it.

[SKYYACHT]

After a training detail, I always ask my student(s) how they felt the detail went. Most flyers are professional and honest, and normally are more ruthless with their own perceived lack of performance (however ill-founded) than I am. It also leaves the way open for further debate on aspects of the flight. When I am checked out, I always ask "How do you feel that I did" if I am not asked first. I know that if my landing was iffy, or if I screwed up the joining procedure etc, then I say so.... Hopefully he/she will respond by saying "Yes, it wasnt good for the following reasons......"

Once debriefed in this manner most instructors should be able to find some positive things to say, even if the detail was less than perfect.

I would assume that a student/pilot who had recognised his/her faults, and brought them up for debate is likely to work at recovering any shortfalls in performance. It is the student that is unaware of his/her lack of performance is more of a worry.

Hopefully the instructor in this case has no real cause for concern about your performance in terms of your safety, and the safety of others.

Just my two pennorth


Tailwinds

[seat-of-the-pants]

Well BEagle, not at all like you to jump in with both feet first without really knowing the full circumstances or context involved!

I'm sure the FI concerned was only trying to be friendly and not too over-powering. After all, this was only a check flight and the pilot concerned was probably a little nervous.

Gertrude, rest assured - If he signed you off then that speaks for itself. If there was any 'deeper' meaning to what he said you can be sure you would have known all about it in the de-brief!

SOTP

[Onan the Clumsy]

Perhaps a check out is a little different from a training session, but I certainly think it's an appropriate question to ask in a training regime and not inappropriate in a check out. SKYYACHT has said pretty much everything I would say on the subject.

Asking the student/checkoutee how they thought it went might reveal that they did something in a strange but acceptable manner because they were taught that way or might give them the opportunity to at least show that they knew the fundamentals of some maneuver they perfomes, not perfectly, but not dangerously either. It might also let you find out some hiden piece of information like they have no idea speed on final is important, even though they performed the maneuver quite succesfully.

[Julian]

Dont see any problems with being asked it at all.

I have been asked what I though of my efforts after both training sessions and checkouts. Its not only usful for throwing up areas where the instructor thinks you could have done better but also where you think you done something wrong, it may be that you had not.

I just treat it now as part of the debrief. At the end of the day you are paying for the instructor so anything thats constructive in the process should be used. I dare say it gives the instructor an insight into you as well on how you answer compared to how he thinks you flew, after all he is the one who has you sign you off in one of his clubs aircraft.

Julian.

[homeguard]

I'm with BEagle on this one.

Our job is not to patronize but to make a reasoned assessment and a decision.

Having made a decision then any points that need to be made should form the basis of a debrief. If we were judging 'Come Dancing' then we could give marks out of ten and maybe ask the recipient what they thought of the result!

Having spent 30 years being tested and assessed I am resolved in knowing that my opinion of my own performance, means nothing.

[Onan the Clumsy]

I am resolved in knowing that my opinion of my own performance, means nothingWhat an odd thing to say. I used to fly a 182, then I did some twin flying. Now I'm back in the 182 again and I'm having to re-adjust to a few different characteristics. It's obvious I used to be able to fly the 182 somewhat better than I do at the moment. Should I ignore my opinion?

Nobody is saying anything about patronising here, I think the instructor is just asking for useful input, as I believe he should. After all, if you asked a student what he thought of his landing and he said "It was pretty good up until the flare" but he was all over the sky and didn't control the airspeed at all, it would be reasonable to assume that the problem was not the inability to exactly control the aircraft, but the much more serious absolute lack of awareness of the need to.

[CFD]

Beagle-not sure I completely agree.
Yes, one should be told the result straight away.
Asking "how did you think that went " is not a cop out.We have been doing it for some time in the airlines. It is called "facilitation",and it is used to obtain diagnosis and remedy, but not to reach the verdict.We have to be tested in it before being allowed to train.

[homeguard]

Yes of course ask the opinion of the candidate. But to first ask their opinion is pointless and facile. Ask most who are worth their metal and they will say "awful" but it dosn't mean that those who judge themselves OK are self deluding.

The point is, do you as an objective observer have comment or critizism. If you do then make the observations clear and then discuss the points you have made. Having done so then ask for their input and discuss that. Come to a conclusion at the end of it.

To put the poor sod on the spot from which they may have to climb down is distructive and sometimes awkward.

[BEagle]

"Asking "how did you think that went " is not a cop out. We have been doing it for some time in the airlines. It is called "facilitation" and it is used to obtain diagnosis and remedy, but not to reach the verdict."

Sorry, but that's typical huggy-fluffy 'no-one is allowed to be told they've failed' psychobabble. You tell the candidate "That was OK, a few points to chat about when we get in", or "Sorry, you need to do a little more training before having another check". But this group cuddle "Well, let's all have a cosy chat. Now how did you think you did today?" business is facile - and nothing whatsoever to do with CRM before anyone leaps onto that particular bandwagon.

I've been teaching (or is that 'facilitating learning' in Newspeak psychobabble?) and examining for quite a while. Never have I once asked the candidate "How do you think that went?" after the flight.

[CFD]

Well maybe I didnt express myself very well.
I agreed that they should be told pass or fail.Where we obviously disagree is the debrief.I cant say that I have ever had a group cuddle however instruction and facilitation are different and both have their uses.
Instruction is primarily a telling activity.Facilitation can be described as a technique that helps trainee's discover for themselves what is appropriate and effective, in the context of their own experience and circumstances (psychobable)!
And it has everything to do with CRM- if you read CAP737 "Crew Resource Management (CRM) Training, you will see.
I too, have been instructing for some time,(not as long as you), but I cant agree that it all a load of "huggy-fluffy".
There is always something new that all of us can learn.

"Safe flying."

[hugh flung_dung]

To my mind there are 3 outcomes from any check or test:
[list=a]
the bod has done well: both you and they will realise and it should be celebrated.
the bod has done badly: you will realise and you hope that they will too; they certainly will when you tell them that they haven't met the standard (plus why and what to do about it)
the bod's performance is in the (all to common) grey band: you will be weighing the various parts of the flight in order to decide the outcome; one of the considerations is their attitude and another is their knowledge.
[/list=a]
I think any of these outcomes benefit from getting the bod to debrief the flight first and a "how do you think it went?" is one way of doing it.

[Onan the Clumsy]

I think you should dispense with fluffines in instruction. Any failed check ride should mean the student is immediately taken out behind the crewroom and shot.