NQY to lose Ryanair?

[Air Hop]

What a surprise. As soon as Ryanair have to pay for anything they threaten to pull out. They are currently objecting to the potential £5 per pax charge from Newquay to help keep the airport open.

ITV Wescountry prounced them as the main user, doesn't say much for ASW or BMI Baby.

Good to know national airlines actually care about the SW!

I have to say, future of Newquay looks doubtful again:confused:

[MerchantVenturer]

CAA stats show 167,000 used the STN-NQY route in 2004 - a lot of fivers there.

Would be a great shame if NQY did close because it is obviously a great resource for Cornwall and is picking up new airlines and routes quite steadily, albeit modestly at present, with Air Southwest actually having a small base there.

I hope a way can be found to raise the finance to keep NQY open but you will know better than me, I am sure, that it won't be easy.

[Buster the Bear]

Why should Ryanair and its passengers subsidise an airport? This a free market economy so an airport, whilst useful to the locality, needs to stand on its own two feet.

http://static.zsl.org/images/width150/bear-04-web-305.jpg

[One Step Beyond]

Why should Ryanair and its passengers subsidise an airport?

Too true, I object to all subsidies, from now on, I shall demand that FR pay me to fly with them...

[gobfa]

Buster,

Have you been eating the over ripe berries ?

Ryanair have probably been enjoying start up discounts, presumably these are just about to end, and MOL
is once again being invited to rejoin planet earth.

How else does an airport gain revenue to provide services required for an airline to operate?, landing and
parking fees would not be sufficient, therefore like all airports NQY are either implementing a passenger
service charge on FR or increasing it to an economic level.

The real question should be, why do Ryanair expect everyone else to subsidise their operations.

[HOODED]

Believe they did a similar thing at LBA when the cheap start up was pulled. If memory serves me right they were on 2/3 a day and went down to 1 with extra flights at MAN. Then MAN did the same and they moved back to 3 a day at LBA pulling MAN frequency. It's MOL posturing to get the best deal he can, but he does pull flights to make his point to the airports. LBA is currently at 3 a day to DUB and I believe MAN is back to where it was too so if the route is siccessful I wouldn't worry too much.

[Runway 31]

At the end of the day it is the passengers who pay the extra monies not the airlines. The passengers passing through airports use car parks, buy meals, newspapers etc. Why doesn't the airport get itself better organised and ensure that there are facilities available to maximise the potential spending power of the passengers passing through. That way they can make money from the passengers instead of ensuring that it is added to the cost of the tickets.

Better to have 150,00 passengers annually with the airline paying a lesser amount than to have 15,000 passengers paying an additional fiver. The passengers are visiting the area and spending a lot of money while they are there. Additional costs may see them go elsewhere to spend that money taking it from the local economy.

[Daza]

Ryanair are bullies they expect to fly to airports on subsidies and when they have to pay the landing fees that were outlined to them at the commencement of new service they throw the toys out of the pram!! They did exactly the same at BHX and then moved to EMA when they didnt get there own way. Hopefully Newquay will survive with Airsouthwest and BMIBaby dont give in to a bully!!
Daza

[MarkD]

FR are going to have to realise the days when they were the only loco in town with spare aircraft are done.

If bmibaby, ASW or maybe Easy with some of those shiny new 319s issued a release saying they would be happy to pick up FR's service the wardrums would stop pretty abruptly.

FR are having to expand DUB service to counter EI's loco/bucket and spade services despite threatening no new service without a privately run terminal. Meanwhile they are ordering aircraft upon aircraft but are short of crews because of penny pinching the -200 crew.

[Sikpupi]

Buster

Remember that that Airport facilitated FR over the past 3 yrs in keeping costs down in order to grow the route. it is a 2 way egffort and now it is time to get commercial. You can be assured that these pax are not travelling to this airport purely based on price and would be willing to pay an extr £5 if they are not inconvenienced (ie put it on the ticket ..not collected at departure etc). FR thinking is that if there is £5 to be got out of teh pax.... they want it for themselves. (Don't mean to FR BAsh here....just stating facts)

Runway31....to get additional income for car hire, franchusees etc - an airport has to invest in providing better facilities. To do so means spending money... and this money has to come from somewhere. Now if the pax are willing to payto keep the place going .... then why not ask the pax their opinion.

An airport has to protect itself and the best advice I can give is to have all its facts and figures ready in a bigh foplder and present them to other airlines. Ryanair know a good thing when they see it and can be sure that they don't want another airline reapoing the benefits of thir hard work over the past 3 years. There is no point in having Ryanair flying in when you can't pay the staff wages.

Enough rant.....feel better already!!!!

[WOWBOY]

i would like to see the £5 surcharge put into place to show yanair that thry cant get there way all of the time.

Air Southwest could/probaly will take over the NQY-STN route if ryanair abandonned it.

:O :O :D

[Centre cities]

Perhaps Southwest could also maintain Birmingham and Durham as there are no winter flights shown at present. The 737 may be to big for the winter, but alot of the passengers I was chatting to when I used the Birmingham Newquay flight were not seasonal.

Seems a shame to build up regular passengers to loose them again. The DH8 would be ideal.

Centre cities

[Young Paul]

Hello????? The "£5 surcharge" is presumably a passenger handling charge - even if it is an increased one. That's what airports charge for handling airlines ... which is how they make their money ... which is how they stay in business, build terminals, pay for their own staff and so on.

It's probably not dissimilar to what all airlines at LHR had to pay to fund Terminal 5 (despite the fact that the usual way of funding business development is for the business to take the risk, rather than their customers). And what airlines at LHR, STN and LGW will have to pay to fund the new runway at STN when the time comes.

No, come to think of it, it's not like that. It is a legitimate charge. NQY doubtless had to think hard before putting it forward, because whenever a business increases charges, it runs the risk of losing its customers - especially ones like Ryanair who keep costs down by getting people to pay them to come. But it is reasonable to propose an increase - that's what businesses have to do sometimes.

[WATABENCH]

Would be nice to see STN-BRS with FR or EZY then connection with WOW, I think still reckon a BRS-london route would do well, especially now there is a massive chance of being caught speeding on M4, If anyone isn't aware, between Bath and Newbury Police have hidden cameras and ARE nailing people going over 70! !
Just to warn Y'all before you bomb down the moterway to the west!:ok:

[Pierre Argh]

Typical of the Low-costs in my opinion... they are quite happy to add on additional "taxes" and "charges" to mask the real cost of the seat they've just sold you for 99p... but when an airport tries the same ploy, to recover some of their lost income form negotiated reductions in landing fee income... the airlines get pissy.

[essexboy]

Typical of the Low-costs in my opinion... they are quite happy to add on additional "taxes" and "charges"


What planet are you lot from. Ryanair cuts prices and makes everyone else in the business do the same where it can. It has no control over taxes. As for NQY if it can't sort its business plan why not look and see how every other regional airport does it and not just off load the problem onto the passengers. If they can't make a profit from 160000 pax they sack the manager. You Jethros should stick to the tractor business instead of trying to play with the 21st century.

[Runway 31]

Wonder what they will do when the MOD puts the field on care and maintenance from 2007.

[Sikpupi]

Essex....."no control on taxes"..!!!!! I don't remember the Govenment introducing an 'Wheelchair Levy' on all able-bodied passengers. Not just one-way either!!!! Also....when did the Banks start charging £2.50 PER PASSENGER to use you credit card to make travel arrangements ....again each way!!!! Taxes is Ryanair slush-fund and I haven;t got a 99p fare yet less that £50 for my regular route.

If an airport is getting NIL income from 160,000 pax....it won't stay in business long. Ryanair passengers are not know for throwing their money around teh place..... they come with packed lunches and order pot of tea for four!!!! They are in and out of regional airports with the minimum spend........and there is no point in FR saying that the Airport should be making money from these pax.

Ryanair have revolutionised air travel - we all agree on that.....but they must remember that a lot of people helped them along the way. Travel agents, Airports, Governments....., and now that they are earning profits of £20 m a quarter... they turn around and stick the two fingers up. As mentioned earlier..... Ryanair are no longer the only act in town and airports (especially privately run ones) are standing up to them. There is no point ion Ryanair bring in 160,000 pax if the airport is not getting a contribution. Who is going to pay the bills????? Franchisee monies, car parks etc is not enough. Everyone could be a winner if Ryanair was willing to play ball and be reasonable............

[Runway 31]

If there is so much money to be made why isn't there competition to destinations such as Newquay. 160,000 passengers are an opportunity but a profit won't be made out of them if you don't try. Ryanair passengers spend their money at airports just the same as anyone elses passengers but if the facilities are not available they are not able to spend their money. Not making a penny out of them should not be an option.

I don't notice Ryanair or other low cost airline passengers walking past all the shops and restaurants at Stansted, Luton etc. If that was the case these airports would have died years ago. If the airport don't want airlines they are not forced to take them but I havn't noticed to many airlines queing up to get into Newquay.

[Sikpupi]

Runway.... I can see where you are coming from here. But remember Newquay is a regional airport and will not have the facilities of a Stansted or Luton. No.1 it probably does not have the room to expand, No.2 cannot afford to expand and No. 3 would not have enough pax to attract large franchisees who could then be charged huge rents to be there. There are not tranatlantic pax passing thru killing 6 hours and needing all sorts of food and drink. I don't know much about Newquay but there couldn't be no more than a handful of flights. Passengers are probably arriving from within 20-30 mile and so arrive with friend / relatives and with minimum connection time - enough to checkin and walk to departures with a paper. I can't see NQY sfifting many Digital Cameras or sets of Raybans....especially as they woundnt have the buying power of a BAA airport.

I am all in favour in having Ryanair but there has to come a time when Ryanair realise that if an airport is struggling - it would make sense to talk to them and at least be helpful. I agree that there may not be a queue of airlines coming into Newquay but if the airport can't make money - Ryanair won't be coming in soon as the place will be closed for good!!!! Is that the right motto..."Milk 'em til they drop"!!! Losing Ryanair maybe a blessing in disguise.....no one will go up against FR while they are there!!

[Exasperated]

R31

I suggest you look closely at this

Infratil revenues and costs at Pik (http://www.infratil.com/downloads/pdf/gpia_os_may2005.xls)

Just shows how little your local makes, and I would put money on the fact that the little profit it does make comes from the freight operations and not Ryanair.

The reason that airlines don't queue up is due to predatory pricing regime operated by Ryanair when another loco competitor pops up e.g. BOH-PIK, DUB-EDI.

Comments please

Ex

[phil_2405]

I have no source or anything for this info, but I have heard airport employees and airport retailers saying how little Ryanair passengers spend when travelling through terminals, compared to other airline's passengers.

[Runway 31]

Exasperated,

That is probably why the management at Prestwick described the airport facilities as a shambles and why they have just spent £3mil in doing the place up and putting in new retail units. They realised (belatedly) that they have passengers caught at the airport for a couple of hours waiting for their flights with nothing better to do than spend money.

I know that there are differences in scale here just as there is a difference in passenger throughput between Prestwick and Glasgow but if you don't try and realise that potential you are not doing yourself any favours.

I would also add that if Ryanair or anyother airline into Newquay or any other airport got additional costs added on to there operation they would not absorb it, they would add it on to the cost of the ticket. The passenger still pays, the airport gains, the airline and the passengers both pay out more.

[Jetset320]

Does anyone have a link to newspaper report on this issue (FR/NQY)?

[essexboy]

80 other destinations throughout europe, many no bigger than NQY make it work. Don't hear any violins coming from Blackpool or Rodez or Lubec or Graz... need I go on.

[Young Paul]

Essexboy: Uh, huh. I think it's you that needs a lesson in economics. Who, pray, owns those airports that are happy to accommodate FR gratis? I suspect it will be the local authorities - who are happy to sacrifice £5 per passenger because they know they will recoup it in the £250 per passenger that they will be spending in the local area in the time they are there. Even if they only have a couple of meals out, the restaurant owners pay the local chamber of commerce, who pays ... well, you get the idea.

What is different is that most airports in the UK are privately owned. Perhaps you might argue that NQY ought to try and recoup the money from Cornwall/Devon county councils, who benefit from the airport being there. Realistically, in a free-market rather than managed economy, I somehow doubt that the councils won't recognise the value added.

Of course, I may be wrong - perhaps NQY is owned by Cornwall etc. But that's generally how it is in the UK.

[WHBM]

Well let Ryanair give it up. Then Easy can come along and take advantage of all the goodwill built up in the route at Ryanair's expense rather than having to start a route from scratch. Newquay wouldn't justify competition but probably justifies a replacement airline. They might even be able to cut a "new operator" deal for the first year or so. :)

[ALLMCC]

.... the same could apply at City of Derry - with talk of Easy being interested, Ryanair could walk away, no runway extension would be required and the residents who were going to lose their homes could breath easy - problem solved!

[essexboy]

Young Paul, old chap the lesson in economics you are missing is that it is the local ELECTED authorities and the local ELECTED chamber of commerce that are responsible for this planning cock up. You could recover £5/pax on the taxi fare from the airport. Open an ice cream or coffee bar and you would make more. Get the idea... Up the entry fee into the Eden Project. I know nothing about the local economy but I sure as hell could make more than £5 a head on 160k extra visitors without busking at the ramp.

[onion]

Essexboy how can you compare Newquay with Graz? Graz is the second largest city in Autria with a population of 250,00+ and thats only the city doesent include other smaller towns around. Newquay is only a small place yes the population swells in the summer but even so. I'm not sure of the population of Rodez but I think Lubec is around the 80,000-100,000 mark nor am I sure of the population of Newquay but im preety sure it is less than both Graz and Lubec!!!
In terms of money making airports actually make very little on landing fees, the aviation related revenue really comes from the up take of fuel, parking fees and rent of aviation related buildings ie hangers.

[Exasperated]

R31

EBITDA and profits are going backwards. That is a recipe for long term problems.

As has been stated before a typical Ryanair passenger does not spend large sums of money in the airport as they are price conscious (this is even encouraged by Ryanair). How often have you seen quotes "I only paid £x.xx for my flights, a bargain". You don't say that and then waste the saving you made in the airport. Perversely, Ryanair's outstanding timekeeping does not encourage additional spending that occurs when flights are delayed and the coffee shop invaded !!

Just how much extra are you expecting departing passengers to spend (arriving pax spend very little on impulse as they just walk through the terminal and out the door)?

Now think of how many will spend nothing (based on the above)

Now calculate how much of that the airport make as a concession fee.

Come back to me with the figures and I will tell you how long it will take Pik to recover the £3m expenditure.

Then you can think about how much they need to spend on facilities to bring them up to scratch and you may find the figures do not stack up very well.

Essexboy

How do you intend to differentiate between those tourists who visit the Eden project and have flown by Ryanair in order to only chare those visitors the £5.00 extra or are you planning to charge everyone?

Cross subsidies like this are illegal and, anyway, why should visitors to the Eden project subsidise Ryanair (who claim to be one of the most profitable airlines in the world)?

Remember that a significant number of the travellers will be locals outbound rather than tourists inbound and they add nothing to the economy in terms of additional revenue.

And just how much coffee and ice cream to you expect the visitors to buy at NQY.

The way that Ryanair trump their profits to anyone that will listen may backfire when airports start to wonder why they are making a loss when their main user is raking in the dough.

How do you expect anyone to run a concession based on a couple of flights a day at NQY?

You can't pi$$ off every supplier you have without some comeback.

Ex

[Runway 31]

Exesperated.

Agree about the EBITDA but that is Stephen Fitzgeralds job to sort now and while the £3mil is not a lot compared to what the likes of BAA can spend it is a start.

Just because the majority of passangers are flying with Ryanair this does not mean they don't have 2 pennies to rub together. Just because they like to get from A to B as cheaply as possible does not mean they are eternally skint. May be they use Prestwick / Ryanair for example because nobody else flies to where they want to go or because it is their local airport etc. Getting a good deal is not only looked for by "typical Ryanair passengers" whatever they are. Having a few bob in your pocket does not mean that you like to pay what you consider to be a cost that is over the odds. If I can get somewhere at a cost that is a lot cheaper than I can get elsewhere I will use it. The money I save can be spent elsewhere on what I choose to spend it on.

Concession contribution for the last couple of years are as follows

2001 £2.23mil 2002 £3.45mil 2003 £3.88mil 2004 £4.96mil.

More passengers=more profit. Now up to 2.25 mil passengers annually and this will rise again this year with the new Ryanair flights which commenced last month. Its not just the existing passengers spending more it is also about getting more passengers who can do some spending.

More retail outlets=more spending opportunities=more passengers spending more.

One of the reasons BAA airports including Stansted, where there a great numbers of low cost airline, are more like shopping malls than airport. There is not a lot else to do at the airport while waiting the couple of hours for your flight than to by a paper, a book or magazine to read on the flight, have a couple of drinks, buy a meal etc i.e. spend some money.

Anyway this thread is about Newquay. Time to get it back on thread.

[GROUNDHOG]

Essex Boy you crack me up, thanks for the laugh, anytime you are passing us Jethro's down here in Cornwall please feel free to keep going.

Back to Air Hop's question, here are the FACTS.

Cornwall County Council own Newquay Airport, the civil bit, terminal, car parks etc, it is managed for them by Serco and the good old RAF run the rest of the show and provide operational controls. Therefore the airport is funded from within the budget allocated to the Council by Central Government and if it doesn't cover its cost they either have to up the charges/ revenues earned or subsidies it in some other way. The only way to make the airport economically viable is for the airlines using it to pay the going rate for its services as they would with any other variable cost item.

If Ryanair, Air Southwest, BMI Baby or any other carrier are not paying the commercial rate then they can always be replaced by others that will. If the Council did not negotiate the deal properly under normal commercial terms when they first arrived then is that why the chickens are now coming home to roost?

What will happen... no tellings it is in the lap of the Council but Ryanair staying or going will make very little difference as things stand, those 160,000 passengere are mostly second home owners, VFR traffic and business people with a handful of tourists or people going outbound. Holidaymakers who spend on local entertainment tend to arrive by car usually with a plastic box in tow or a grocklebox on the roof or if they are beyond driving down here by coach!

One bright hope for the airport though is that if the night sleeper train is axed there will be considerable political pressure that the airport must remain operational after the RAf leave.

[MerchantVenturer]

Ryanair published a news release last week saying it is 'reviewing' its twice daily STN-NQY route because of the council's proposed £5 pax surcharge.

In a typically forthright retort the airline suggests Cornwall will be the loser as pax from London will fly elsewhere.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=05&month=aug&story=gen-en-100805

[GROUNDHOG]

I am suprised the Council hasn't charged a fee before, dress it up as what you will, development, security there is nothing particularly new about it. If Ryanair don't want to pay then they must go away and there will be others on what is known to be a lucrative route that I am sure will be prepared to do so.

An airline that contributes nothing is worth .... er... nothing?

[The_Bean_Counter]

Ryanair will announce reduction of services from 2 a day to just a daily service today

[GROUNDHOG]

Perhaps they would consider cancelling the other half of the service then we could get another airline on the route that does make a contribution.

Cancelling because of the new charges - -I think not!

[Pierre Argh]

Sabre rattling nothing more... the big statement by RYR that they are cutting 50% of their flights should/could be considered against the fact that when they started in early 2003 (I think my facts are correct) they flew just one flight a day, over the winter they used the smaller B737-200 aircraft and cut back on weekend flights...

Protest over taxes I don't think so, just cutting their costs over the somewhat "quieter" winter period... but making whatever capital they can out of it, whilst keeping the competition out.

[hapzim]

With Monarch ( www.flymonarch.com ) starting a malaga scheduled route there may be more for newquay than ryanair posturing. :ok:

[Sikpupi]

THis is the time for Management to be strong and consider their options. Get a good lawyer to look over the contract (if there is one) and see if there is an option to put them on notice. They have to realise that having even some Ryanair presence will affect their chances of getting in an alternative carrier.

Otherwise....I can see Ryanair going for Injunctions and tying the airport in legal argument for the next number of years and they have unlimited money when it comes to legal fees. They will try and make an example of Newquay. If they win an injunction - it will be No FEE collected until resolution and Newquay are back where they started....short of funds!!!!

Also...other pax will not appreciate having to pay while the FR pax along side them do not!!!!

Mangement...be tough and take the hard decisions.

[kala87]

Isn't this just typical Ryanair tantrums? I seem to remember a couple of years back FR cut back their LTN-DUB service from 5 to 2 flights per day for a winter season due to some dispute over fees with Luton Airport. Now they have 4 based aircraft there.

I disagree with some previous comments about the type of pax that use the Newquay FR route. In my experience of using the route and meeting friends from the flight, the pax are a very mixed bunch, and include a lot of Cornish who use the flights to visit relatives/friends in the London area. There is also good patronage from local business people on day trips to London and other places such as Norwich and Cambridge. I've also met locals who connect with other FR flights via Stansted.

What a load of nonsense about lack of spend by loco pax in the terminal. If there's a cafe selling expensive cappucinos and buns,and a well-stocked newsagent, the pax will use it. I don't think Luton or Stansted suffer from lack of spending by their predominantly low-cost airline pax. All it takes is a bit of imaginative planning and marketing.

Newquay does have a problem with lack of terminal space, and also with lack of apron parking. The place is still basically a military field with RAF-type dispersal areas for civilian aircraft parking and an absurdly small tin shed for a terminal. I recently met an incoming FR flight and the aircraft had to park on the military side of the airfield due to a lack of "apron" space on the civilian side of the airport. The pax were bussed about a mile to the terminal in a ramshackle collection of old buses, and the outgoing flight departed late. In its present state, Newquay is just playing at being an airport. Not much chance of improvements until the future of the airfield is decided by the MOD though.

[GROUNDHOG]

Kala 87 you are quite right and from my discussions with the Council I do not see a lot changing. It seems to be jobs for the boys and any help from those that just might have some experience in these matters is ignored or rejected? Even free help!

[Wycombe]

Bit of interesting posturing from Flybe....Flybe.com news item (http://www2.flybe.com/news/0508/31a.htm)

[ALLMCC]

An announcment on Flybe's website states they are evaluating a Newquay service to one of the London airports following Ryanair's decision - presumably Gatwick is the airport to which they refer - could this herald other Flybe routes out of Newquay?

[no, no, no]

maybe this could be a good time to get a flight back in to Heathrow???? Get all the connecting traffic whilst it's there?

with bmibaby flying to NQY fro Teesside and Birmingham, and them having seats on bmi, could this be a viable option??

[Air Hop]

If Flybe do start operating a London service, does anyone think that there would be potential for it to be a shared flight with Exeter?

It would be good to have this link:D

[FLYboh]

Don't Air Southwest already do NQY-LGW?

[WOWBOY]

Yes AirSouthwest do NQY-LGW 4XDAILY!!!

I have heard that flybe would like to FILL THE GAP of the STN route so i thinkstansted is the airport they are planning on flying to! NOT SURE!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/4202520.stm

[jabird]

Can anyone complete the maths:

STN to NYQ return 4th Oct:

Morning out - 0.29.
Evening out - 19.99.

Seem like the demand is for out in the morning, back in the evening, therefore implying more inbound to London than outbound to Cornwall. Less of a concern for the local council then, if everyone's leaving town to spend money in London. Most other FR domestic flights looking one month ahead are in the 99p-£2.99 range, so looks like there is some margin to protect here, not to mention the considerably higher prices booking closer to the day of travel.

Remove one flight and see prices tend towards the higher yields, especially over winter as previously mentioned.

STN handling charges & taxes - £14.68
NQY charges & taxes - £10.98.

Compared to other FR UK domestic airports:

BLK, PIK,LDY - £11.98


Now Gordon & Chums are taking £5 each way, and then there is the £2.98 "insurance and wheelchair levy", leaving £6.70 and £3 respectively.

Jumping from £3 to £8 is a 167% rise, but other airlines seem prepared to pay it, so far play to NQY if they can stand their ground until the summer, by which time FR will have found another airport to pick on (BLK has to be next then), and they will quietly accept that the extra £5, which they can pass straight onto their passengers anyway, is justified against the high yields these flights must generate in the summer peaks. I would expect NQY pax to be worth more than those going to PIK, LDY or BLK, whichever airline takes them there.

Can anyone confirm that the £5 is in addition to the current £3 PFC, not instead of it? News articles are calling it a tax, but presumably no local authority has such powers, and this is really just an increased PFC, labelled as a tax because the local authority owns the airport?

Also, how come FR have kept this wheelchair levy? Wasn't that only supposed to be over the handling charges at STN? It seems to apply to all their flights, and to both sectors, irrespective of whether STN is used or not (eg PIK to GRO has the charge in both directions).