NYC Longranger crashes into river

[rotornut]

CNBC just reported that a helicopter crashed into the water near Wall Street in New York. Apparently all 7 people aboard survived and were taken to hospital.

[SASless]

Fox News is showing live video of a crashed Long Ranger down in the river in NYC.

No word on injuries, deaths, causes yet.

Aircraft is secured to a barge....lots of emergency assistance on site. Airframe inverted in the water, floats inflated. EMS seen placing one man onto a stretcher....after seen walking around....second man seen being hugged by a couple of folks...him also wet.

No sense of urgency seen in divers in view on the video.

Just heard no serious injuries resulting from the event. No word yet on possible causes. Let the guessing begin.

[Ranger One]

Yep - it's right outside Mrs. Ranger's office at Old Slip. One of her colleagues saw it - described as a tail rotor strike, finished up upside down in the river. Bloody lucky they all got out, if reports are correct.

R1

[rotornut]

They just showed a live shot of it being recovered. It was floating upside down next to the pier and they were getting ready to hoist it out of the water.

[thefunky1]

pics and some video here along with story.

http://www.wnbc.com/news/4607311/detail.html

[Heliport]

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/050614/n_helicopter_crash_050614.275w.jpg

[Flying Lawyer]

Reports say the accident occurred around 1:30 p.m. near South Street.
Some say 6 POB, some 7.

South Street is on the East River - near the Wall St heliport.
Reports don't yet say if the helicopter was approaching/departing the heliport.

[octavo]

Reports say there were 7 POB, none seriously injured.
The accident occured shortly after takeoff.

[Onan the Clumsy]

I heard all pax resued safely, but then again on the same broadcast, they just announced DFW had opened up a new Terminal B :ugh:

[av8rbpm]

DFW just opened Terminal "D". You were close.....!!

[Heliport]

http://www.nynewsday.com/media/photo/2005-06/18021091.jpg Australians in US helicopter crash

A tourist helicopter, carrying a group of six Australian and French tourists, crashed into New York's East River, flipping over as it hit the water.

The pilot and all passengers on board were safely rescued in a joint operation by police and coast guard.

There were no serious injuries.

"They seemed in decent shape but were taken to hospital as a precaution," police spokesman Sergeant Walter Burnes said.

The helicopter made what Mr Burnes described as a "hard landing" near a pier at the foot of Wall Street in lower Manhattan.

Police sources said the helicopter was operated by a company called Helicopter Flight Services and had been rented out by the passengers for an aerial tour of New York.

The precise cause of the crash was not immediately known.

Antonio Dajer, associate medical director at New York University Downtown Medical Centre, said the passengers and paramedics on the spot had recounted how the helicopter got in trouble as it was lifting off.

"It clipped something that damaged the rotor and immediately the pilot lost control and pitched into the water," Dr Dajer told CNN.

Dr Dajer said two patients had been treated for mild exposure to gasoline fumes.

The helicopter, still inverted in the water, was secured by ropes and flotation devices, as the emergency services discussed the best way to lift it from the river.

Further report here (http://www.wnbc.com/news/4607311/detail.html#)

[Ian Corrigible]

An eyewitness account from Ranger One's missus reported in the other thread (over in R&N) seems to confirm a tail-strike. That looks like a fairly old LongRanger.

:(

I/C

[John Eacott]

206L (C20) on pop outs, six pax: not a lot of power on take off, methinks :confused: :rolleyes:

Even with the water/meth injection going, it would be a bit of a handful. Amazing they all got out; it's receiving lots of airtime down here with the Australian passenger involvement.

[Aesir]

Hmm.. temperatures in New York today about 85°F (ca 30°C) yes not a lot of power to spare although of course there could very well be a entirely different reason for the crash, I´m just saying.

For those that don´t know the way to tell it has a C20B engine is because it has dual exhaust stacks and not the one wide that the C28 & C30 have!

What always bugs me is when the press brings up the age of the aircraft, like in this case the airframe was 28 yrs old. It does not matter at all. Probably about 75% of the parts that total up the value of this aircraft were less than 10 years old. A data plate, some windows and doors and sheetmetal usually will not cause the aircraft to crash.

[Ranger One]

Slight correction, it wasn't my missus saw it, it was one of her colleagues - their office is on Old Slip, overlooking the area - just a few yards North of the heliport.

Third-hand eyewitness etc. etc. but I don't see any reason to disbelieve a tailstrike at this stage. Yes it was hot enough to grow doughnuts in New York today - record high for June at JFK - believe the pax were not American, so weight issue may not have been quite so critical but still, in these temps...

On a more unhappy note it's now reported that one of the survivors is in a coma...

R1

[Heliport]

"How it happened" - according to Newsday.com anyway


http://www.nynewsday.com/media/graphic/2005-06/18025956.gif

[The Nr Fairy]

I note the bottom of that article has "Other recent crashes".

Is 12 or 8 years ago "recent" ?

[RobboRider]

Nothing like dragging out those "recent" figures. We had a similar one just in the last couple of days, saying how Queensland was leading the country in aircraft crash fatalities and then padding out the story with details of crashes going back to the early 1990s.

Nothing like a beat up to get the readers in.:mad:

[VectorLine]

According to the video link:

six people and the pilot were on board when the helicopter crashed...

Could you imagine how bad it would have been if the pilot hadn't been on board when it crashed? :}

Oh and "Colin Mckenzie from Ireland" interviewed near the end has a very distinctive Glasgwegian accent. :hmm:

Great reporting as usual.

The written report says;
The helicopter did a 360-degree roll before the pilot put the six-passenger helicopter down in the water.

Is that possible in a helicopter?

[on21]

BBC report of the accident


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/4094564.stm

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

I was just thinking that NRfairy - If you think of all the hundreds of weekly movements from the Manhattan heliports then 3 accidents since the early 90's in the vicinity doesn't seem worth dragging out to me - but we're not the egg shell treading public are we?

[thefunky1]

Reports now of two passengers being Brits including the one in a coma.

[Bellthorpe]

Speaking of press accuracy, I notice that this particular Bell runs on diesel (http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,15623032%255E954,00.html) !

[teeteringhead]

And the BBC last night were talking about a Bell Long Range helicopter......

....... not with that many pax methinks;)

[diethelm]

Jet A and diesel are pretty close to being the same. You can run Diesel in a Model 250 engine.

[alouette]

Everybody was lucky and walked away... I think the news channels make too much a deal of it. I have seen the news cast on one of those channels where one lady couldn't even spell out the words...Just a bad day that ended lucky...So actually it was a good day. What you all think? A good landing is whereby everyone walks away. Comments please. :ok:

[SASless]

Does that rule out "swims away"?

[IHL]

Aesir & John it could also be a C20R , it uses the same exhaust stacks as a C20B.

[belly tank]

Talking of the press...i had a tour group the other day ring and ask if our helicopter was going to crash like the one in new york did! :eek: ...they were clearly distressed about it...i calmly gave them some facts about flying and the jetranger :cool:

they ended up going on the flight and absolutely loved it!....but it goes to show you how much the press affects our industry perception..

[Heliport]

Journos are only interested in selling newspapers.

eg None of the reports I saw mentioned that Helicopter Flight Service had been operating tours in the Manhattan area for 20 years without a single incident or accident until this - even though that declaration appeared on the company's website. (It's been removed now, but it was there at the time journos were doing their 'research'.)

They whip up fear for the sake of a 'Shock! Horror! story without any regard to the consequences. Journos made a major contribution to the eventual demise of Concorde. Ironically, British newspapers were the worst offenders, even though Concorde was a significant success story for BA.

[flyer43]

The same could be said about somebody falling from the top of the Empire State building. He was alright until he hit the ground!
Journalists always do look for sensationalism, but an operator is not necessarily safe because it hasn't experienced a fatal accident in however many years. It is the way in which an operator manages its operations that should be the milestone of safety.
Having said that, I have no knowledge of this particular operator.

[Bronx]

Suppose it could but if nobody's fallen off the Empire State building for 20 years I guess their safety management ain't bad.

Funny how some folk in the industry just have to argue when something positive is said here.

:rolleyes:

[flyer43]

Bronx

At the risk of continuing to appear argumentative, there is a substantial difference between a good safety record and good safety management. Some companies manage to work for umpteen years without anything going wrong, but this is often down to the comittment and dilligence of the people working for it, rather than due to good safety management. Change some of the people and hey presto.....

I wasn't arguing with Heliport, I was just expressing my thoughts, something which I believe we are encouraged to do on PPRUNE.

If you re-read the start of my second paragraph, I think that you will find that I was agreeing with Heliport's statement. I myself have suffered at the hands of a rather zealous reporter who managed to concentrate all the little negatives into one big one. Once the wrong message has been expressed to the masses, it takes ages to right the wrongdoing, and it is often virtually impossible to do so. "It has to be true, it was in the Daily Wotsit!"

Heliport does a magnificent job of tempering the threads on this site, and long may it continue.

[SASless]

NTSB Identification: NYC05FA099.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division

14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, June 14, 2005 in New York, NY

Probable Cause Approval Date: 2/28/2006
Aircraft: Bell 206L, registration: N78TD
Injuries: 1 Serious, 6 Minor.

The helicopter landed at the heliport with approximately 220 lbs. of fuel on board. At that time, the helicopter was oriented to north, with a light westerly wind. The helicopter was on the ground for 2 to 3 minutes while ground personnel boarded passengers for a sightseeing flight. The helicopter lifted up to a hover and initially turned left 90 degrees toward west, but the wind was from the northeast at approximately 5 knots. When the pilot realized the wind was from the other direction, he then turned right about 270 degrees.

The pilot initiated a southeasterly takeoff run, oriented about a 160-degree heading. During the approximate 275-foot takeoff run, the skids contacted the ground at least once as the pilot attempted to increase forward speed. The pilot felt like the helicopter did not have full power during the takeoff run; however, the pilot and passengers did not recall any cockpit warnings or anomalies.

The helicopter did not gain altitude as it neared the end of the heliport, and the tailrotor struck the edge of the pier as the helicopter descended towards the water. The helicopter subsequently impacted the water and rolled inverted.

Examination of the helicopter did not reveal any pre-impact mechanical malfunctions. The pilot did not ask passengers their weight, and did not have a scale at the heliport. Rather, he estimated the weight and balance. For the accident flight, he estimated 150 lbs. per person, as there were three male passengers, and three female passengers. However, the average weight of the passengers was approximately 188 lbs. The weight of the occupants and the weight of the fuel revealed that the helicopter was about 222 lbs. overweight at the time of the accident; not including the weight of clothing, personal effects, and baggage. In addition to being over the maximum gross weight, the helicopter was at or beyond its performance limits for the environmental conditions, and the takeoff was attempted with a light left crosswind or quartering tailwind.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

The pilot's inadequate preflight planning, which resulted in an attempted takeoff with an overweight helicopter, and subsequent impact with a pier and water. Factors were a high ambient temperature and unfavorable winds.


They ping him for not having a set of scales at the heliport.....well gosh, darn!

[PPRuNe Radar]

Having taken just such a trip in November, the guys in the 'terminal' asked us all our weight (approx) and assigned us seats accordingly.

Maybe lessons have been learned, or maybe different operators have different standards ??

[B Sousa]

asked us all our weight (approx) and assigned us seats accordingly.

Nice that they asked you, but if they want the truth they put you and your backpack etc on the scale.. No need to ask and a bit more accurate........
It makes a difference in the helicopter world. Some Carrriers, thankfully, are making folks pay to block a seat if they are obviously the size of a baby elephant.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Sure makes me appreciate the scales on the floor at the passenger check in counter at work. :) (not to mention the computerized w&b program etc...)

[alouette]

I wonder if there is a hand-held electronic device available to determine the CG of an aircraft.:ok:

[rotorspeed]

Scales or no scales, you've got to be pretty stupid (or turning a blind eye to the likely facts) to misjudge weights of pax by an average of 38 lb (17kg), especially when you know you're operating near MTOW.

Surely most of us can eyeball estimate 95% of pax's weight within 20lb/10kg even if we don't want to ask - which is often not preferable. And if we can't - well a set of scales had better be used then!

In fact I do keep a set for occasional use either when getting near MTOW and need helipad performance, or just to cross-check against estimations from time to time.

[Heliport]

Likely causes of the event are tail rotor strike and/or loss of adequate power for take off. Just guessing!

:confused:


SASless has posted the NTSB report published 28 Feb.

[Hiro Protagonist]

I wonder if there is a hand-held electronic device available to determine the CG of an aircraft.:ok:
Sure, you can make a spreadsheet in Excell and then run it on a pocket pc, or palm device, and it'll do all the math, and if you use the right program (spreadCE) even display any graph you built into your spreadsheet. The problem then becomes guessing weights. (I suppose you could get an electronic scale and connect it to your pocket device :cool: )
I've got a spreadsheet like this I developed for the r22, and seen 'em for as350 etc...
Now that I look at the winking emoticon in your post I'm thinking you might have meant a calculator!:ok:

[SASless]

Heliport,

I am sure the aircraft felt a sinking sensation along with the pilots stomach when it passed off the end of the wharf without ETL or the power to accelerate and climb away. One would have gone from in ground effect to a situation much less conducive to flight at that point. If it was not flying at that point....it sure wasn't going to fly after that point. Throw in the possiblity of being a bit downwind on the takeoff and the situation gets more depressing.

Maybe we need to start calculating rejected takeoff distances, balanced field lengths, and CDP's for single engine helicopters as well as multi-engine aircraft.

Is this another case of commercial pressure....show up to pick up a load of executives and find you are too heavy....how does one say..."One of you must get down!" and keep your customer/job? Did the customer have that infamous..."extra passenger that has to go"?

[GLSNightPilot]

There are numerous handheld devices that will determine CG. I use a Palm Tungsten T3, with Copilot as the software. It will do detailed flight planning, including flight time, fuel, cost, and anything else you need, including CG with a graphical display of CG at ramp, takeoff, landing, and zero fuel. It's free, and better than the commercial program for PC the boss provides. It's not certified for Part 135 use, but it's accurate and quick, and will at least tell you if you're overgross or out of CG without needing a PC or EFB.