Question re base of airways toward ABZ...

[Richard Taylor]

...as good a place as any to ask I suppose.

Perhaps Scottish or ABZ approach controllers could answer.

The base of the airways P600 & P18 heading towards ABZ from the south were recently raised to FL 120.

I've heard(& seen)quite a few aircraft having to either dogleg or orbit to get the height off.

Who decided to raise the bases(NATS,I presume?) & what was the reason for doing so(military movements? safety??)

Nothing to suggest the manoeuvres are in any way dangerous but seems the decision to raise the bases of the airways are resulting in a fair few aircraft struggling to get the excess height off before they lock onto final approach.

[Findo]

Who decided to raise the bases(NATS,I presume?) & what was the reason for doing so(military movements? safety??)

NATS are a service provider not the airspace planners. CAA do that bit for airspace users.

[Ringa-Bel?]

The reason to raise the P600 base was almost certainly military movements, mainly to and from Leuchars.

In order to get more controlled airspace i.e. P18 and a larger fillet where L610 meets the Scottish TMA at HAVEN, the military wanted something back i.e. raising the bases of CAS.

What has resulted is of limited use anyway. The limited hours of P18 from Monday to Friday is ridiculous, so it's only at weekends that CAS exists for a long enough period. (The bases of which are probably too high).

The bases of CAS have gone up on P600, but also in the vicinity of ESKDO and D510 (Spadeadam) which has been a shot in the foot for ScTMA controllers who now have to keep traffic too high inbound to Edinburgh severely limiting any benefits from the changes.

[Richard Taylor]

Many thanks,Ringa-Bel :ok:

[throw a dyce]

One of results of this is that un-pressurised a/c in and out of PD are given no protection of Controlled Airspace outside the Aberdeen CTA as they can't take the base levels of P600 and P18.
The base levels of P18 leave a/c virtually on a continuous descent approach,so slowing them to fit in with helis can leave them needing dog-legs.Also having CAS in the form of P18 when the military are in their beds or the pub,is totally useless.Ok it cuts a lot of track miles but when you need it,it isn't there.Doesn't stop Eastflight who just plough on anyway outside CAS.
Orbits on final seem to be an ocassional EMB 145/135 trick,as seem to be unable to get the profile right.Looks like another possible ''Primus'' problem.I just send them around on a standard missed approach and give them time to sort it out.
The military wanted the base of P600 raised as a trade off for P18,which is used when they don't fly.Result Civil traffic 0,Military 1.

[Data Dad]

Totally agree with The above....

However, it has led to the invention of a new piece of Standard Phraseologyfor use at 0900L every weekday ...

"Eastflight 1234, Controlled Airspace is Leaving You.....!

:O :ok:

[throw a dyce]

Or on the odd hour or Inverurie tattie picking holiday when P18 is there,Eastflight requesting Radar Advisory right on the centreline.Doh !
Must be a new catchphrase:ok: