Flying In Class A Airspace

[smithgd]

A friend and I were discussing whether flying in class A was allowed if you were IFR and non airways and/or not following a STAR/SID?

Is it?


I know Airways are class A and also London/Manchester TMA's and Jersey CTR are. I know VFR is not allowed, only IFR. However since class A is usually "associated" with Airways we were unsure if you could fly inside the TMA's and Jersey class A non airways??

For example could I fly IFR to Jersey non airways, what would happen at the CTR boundary would I have to follow STAR or can I just position for the IAP or get RVILS? How about outbound would I have to follow SID or can I just route as I require it?

cheers
smithgd

[AlanM]

Yep - you can fly IFR non airways or not on a SID/STAR. Most units will simply put you on a heading.

A lot of the London unit will try and get IFR aircraft into CAS to offer some protection asap.

We even get light aircraft up into the LTMA if we can sometimes. Generally we will ask if you can accept an IFR clearance first, and then you must have Mode A/C on and working.

[smithgd]

Thanks AlanM

So from a flight planning point of view is it possible to plan a flight into Class A IFR non airways? Or does it depend on the controller at the time I call up?

smithgd

[AlanM]

Just freecalling for airways/LTMA entry is not likely to be allowed.

I was reffering to you flying an approach into somewhere like Biggin Hill/City/Luton etc etc (even LHR!), where from DET I could climb you up to 4000 feet in the LTMA.

Just freeecalling asking to route DET-BIG-BPK at 4000' might get a different reply...!:)

There is probably something in the AIP saying that you must submit a flight plan. (This is how the "Flight Progress Strips" are produced for the relevant sectors for controllers to write on)

[smithgd]

Yep sorry I was talking about calling up for an approach into a field inside the class A.

So flying into Jersey a flight plan would contain something along the lines of:

DCT - SAM - ORTAC - JERSEY1G (for a STAR approach)
DCT - SAM - ORTAC - DCT (for a non STAR appraoch)
DCT - SAM - ORTAC - JSY (for a procedure approach)

smithgd

[Chilli Monster]

Having seen the revised question - what makes you think you're going to get a choice?

Standard flight planning for any airport in class 'A' is to flight plan to the first point of the STAR. What happens after that is, to a certain extent, completely outside of your control. You will be handled by ATC the way they want to handle you, subject to traffic at the time. You may get the STAR, you may get direct, you may get vectors.

When you submit your Flight Plan to IFPS the acknowledgement will come back (in the UK anyway) with the routeing as DCT from the STAR commencement to the destination (even if you put "STAR" in the Flight Plan). This is different from European Flight Plan Acknowledgements which will include the SID / STAR in the acknowledgement.

So - SAM DCT ORTAC (if below N866) DCT will be the required plan submission.

Of course - this is all dependant on your having a valid IR I take it? (in which case why aren't you flying airways?).

[smithgd]

The choices were there coz I couldn't remember if you had to specify STAR or not. I realise you end up doing what ever ATC want you to do.

As for a valid IR... I don't but the pilot does ;)
As for airways...I believe it costs (more) money to fly an airway?

smithgd

[Chilli Monster]

ALL IFR flight's further than 50km, landing at an airfield other than point of departure, for aircraft 2000kg or more are subject to route charges, whether you fly airways or not. It doesn't matter if you conduct the entire flight in Class 'G' and talk to no-one, you still get charged.

If the aircraft is less than that - it doesn't cost a penny.

[Sky Wave]

On a similar vein to the original posting, could I plan the following for an IFR flight from Southampton to Stapleford?

DCT MID DCT BIG DCT LAM altitude 6000ft? (I think I'm correct in saying Quadrantals do not apply within CAS)


This has the obvious advantage that I remain in controlled airspace throughout the entire flight with the exception of the arrival into Stapleford. However I have flight planned to be going through a very busy sector of LTMA (at 100kts in my PA28!). Would the flight plan get accepted and would ATC be happy to vector me around the commercial traffic?

Thanks SW

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I think the originator misunderstands airspace nomenclature.. "Airways" is much the same as "TMA" because the TMA airspace is a large piece of Class A airspace, often at the junction of many airways in the vicinity of a major airfield. The rules are the same but the TMA is much busier.

As for filing 6000 ft MID-BIG-LAM.. it would almost certainly be impossible due to confliction with so many routes in the area. ATC would not find much fun in a 100kt Cherokee doing 100kts in the middle of the London TMA - I know; I've seen it and it is not a pleasant sight!

I think your pilot friend needs to brief himself thoroughly before even thinking of doing what you propose. For example, why go at 6000 ft (which is the SID outbound altitude for Heathrow traffic routeing south)? If you are in a light aircraft flying Southampton-Stapleford you'd be far better at 1500 ft SVFR through the London Zone working Heathrow SVR then Thames Radar.

[ukatco_535]

By Chilli Monster

If the aircraft is less than that - it doesn't cost a penny.

I am off the opinion that they should be charged - the amount of hassle a slow overflight in mid TMA levels causes is almost always much greater than the airlines because he is there for so much longer, is in the way of descents and climbs etc etc etc. The flight certainly causes the controller greater workload.

A bit like the parachute aircraft that do not pay charges to enter and drop, yet because of them and slow overflights, we often have to draft in another ATCO to split an otherwise manageable sector!!

Grumble grumble grumble!!

[chevvron]

On that route he'd probably end up being sent CPT - BNN - BPK anyway.

[Sky Wave]

Confused, What friend?? I was talking hypothetically for myself.

1500ft SVFR can't be done in IMC, besides even it was VMC would you not be on very dodgy ground with regard to rule 5 when flying a single?

I'm looking for an IFR solution which preferably keeps you in CAS up until the let down when you clearly have to leave CAS.

6000ft was just a figure off the top of my head and I would assume if that altitude was difficult ATC would climb or descend me, would they not?

As for briefing myself thoroughly, I've searched all the literature I cannot find anything which prohibits me from doing it, so I thought I would pose the question to ATCO's on PPruNe and see if it is possible or if I've missed a document that prohibits it.

Perhaps you can suggest other alternatives either in routing or altitudes. If you prefer it could be Stanstead rather than Stapleford in which case both departure and destination airfields are within CAS.

Thanks for your help. O and thanks for the comments regarding charging, most helpful, from what I can tell that’s the way things are going anyway.

SW

[ukatco_535]

Sky Wave

I hope you do not think I was having a go at pilots of these types of A/C for using the airspace - they are entitled to be there.

I personally just think they should incur a charge. The workload they create is phenomenal compared to the airliners.

This has nothing to do with pilot competence or otherwise,it is merely because these flights are usually at difficult levels for us to climb or descend through and tend to be in the sector for a while. :)

[foghorn]

If you want to fly in the London TMA under IFR "off-airways", one of the few places where it is regularly done is in the area between BIG and DET for traffic inbound to Biggin. In my experience a climb into the Class A to 3,000ft is sometimes offered by Thames if they can accomodate this to keep you clear of the EGTO circuit and VFR stuff at low level. Sometime between Saturday noon and Sunday noon would be the best bet due to the lack of EGLC traffic.

[AlanM]

The first routeing then:

MID-BIG would take you through the climb out/final at Gatwick.

OCK-BIG line is not separated form Heathrow departures. 3A, 4A, 5A, 6A are all out. FL70-120 are use by Heathrow inbounds.

BIG-LAM has City/Biggin traffic at 3A and 4A - and Gatwick SIDs and City departures at 5A. Heathrow SIDs go there at 6000ft. FLs mean in the stacks again.

CPT - BNN - BPK as suggested soesn't work if there are BPK SIDs off City, or CLN SIDs off Luton (and some Northolt SIDs) 3A,4-5A are blocked.... and then the Heathrow departures again climb to 6A in that area. Above that are FLs for Heathrow.

So - what normally happens is that traffic into Elstree/Stapleford/Denham arriving from the North East - South East end up working Thames via DET or SPEAR at 4000ft. However, they are normally given descent out of CAS if there are Biggin/City traffic around.

Most biz-jets positioning within LTMA airfields have company procedures that do not allow transits outside CAS. In the last week I have seen a Northolt to City go on a CPT SID - route South of Gatwick to come in at DET! (FL160 I have seen!) - I have also seen the same operator go City - Farnborough on a CPT SID.

The best way is to file a SID that gets near to a STAR near your arrival airfield. (Unless of course you were planning to do this at 0300hrs!!!)

[Sky Wave]

I personally just think they should incur a charge. The workload they create is phenomenal compared to the airliners.

I think the whole game is outrageously expensive anyway!

But anyway I was just trying to avoid the thread turning into an argument over cost.

So cost aside, is there a solution that keeps me within CAS and is more manageable from an ATCO's point of view.

It obviously pays not to upset the controllers straight away by filing a horrendous flight plan.

Cheers

[AlanM]

As said - depart Southampton on a published SID. Have a look at the EGHI textual data in the online AIP:

L9/L10 GWC - SFD - R803 - DVR

You can then pick up the ALKIN3F from WAFFU into DET and then direct LAM. (They may let you go SFD-BONDY-DET if you are lucky)

HOWEVER - you may descended out of CAS if there are City/Biggin inbounds and outbounds to conflict as you get to DET.

As I said, you have to fly the SID to meet the STAR - nippy bizjets do it and can be hard work - just imagine it in a PA28.

Unfortunately for you, some inconsiderate berk put Gatwick/Heathrow/City/Biggin Hill in the way.

[Send Clowns]

ALL IFR flight's further than 50km, landing at an airfield other than point of departure, for aircraft 2000kg or more are subject to route charges, whether you fly airways or not. It doesn't matter if you conduct the entire flight in Class 'G' and talk to no-one, you still get charged.Interesting - how do they know? I could fly out of an airfield with A/G or AFIS VFR, fly the rest IFR not telling anyone, then make a visual approach to land. OK so I am 1999 kg, so it makes no odds to me, but what about when I start on the Navajo? I am off the opinion that they should be charged - the amount of hassle a slow overflight in mid TMA levels causes is almost always much greater than the airlinesBut it is the airlines that require the controlled airspace. Most of the light users (including me on most flights) would be perfectly happy if it wasn't there, in fact their flying would be easier. The airline operations, and occasionally the operations of small commercial flights like mine, make the airway system a necessity. Therefore they pay for it.

[Spitoon]

Send Clowns, to answer your first question, It's because the UK Rules of the Air Regulations (Rule 20 to be specific) saysWithout prejudice to the provisions of rules 27 and 31, before taking off on any flight from an aerodrome in the United Kingdom, being a flight whose intended destination is more than 40 km from the aerodrome of departure, the commander of an aircraft of which the maximum total weight authorised exceeds 5700 kg shall cause a flight plan containing such particulars of the intended flight as may be necessary for search and rescue purposes to be communicated to the air traffic control unit notified for the purpose of this rule.

Unless I am mistaken Chilli's usually good gen appears to be in error in its detail this time although the principle is correct.

[Warped Factor]

Sky Wave,

Take a look at the UK Standard Route Document, which Jeppesen have kindly made available here (http://www.jeppesen.com/wlcs/index.jsp?section=resources&content=special_pubs.html), to see a likely route.

Find EGHI as your dep point and look for an aerodrome close to Stapleford to get an idea of the routeing you'd likely need to file.

Don't expect any FPL to be accepted at a level lower than FL90 either.

Enjoy ;)

WF.

[Chilli Monster]

No Spitoon old friend - the details are correct.

Yes - you're right, aircraft over 5700kg have to file a plan (nominally for charging purposes). Aircraft over 1999kg, even if no plan is filed, are subject to IFR charges. However - Send Clowns raises the valid point about A/G / FISO airfields. If they don't submit their movement logs to the authority then the chances are a charge will not be raised. Bear in mind though that technically speaking A/G / FISO airfields aren't actually available for IFR flights (UK AIP GEN section gives a table of aerodromes v types of flight allowed to use them). If you arrive at a unit which does though, as an IFR arrival, then expect a bill. Charge will be based on distance between separture and destination airfields.

It pays to keep a note of which flights were IFR and which were VFR, as it's not been unheard of for a bill to be issued for a VFR flight if you're above the 1999kg limit.

[TATC]

It pays to keep a note of which flights were IFR and which were VFR, as it's not been unheard of for a bill to be issued for a VFR flight if you're above the 1999kg limit.

Probably down to someone inputting the wrong flight rules into the movement log

[Send Clowns]

Spittoon - but the Navajo is less than 5,700 kg, yet above 2,000 kg so still subject to charges. I occasionally fly the PA-34 on positioning legs without a flight plan under IFR, although good airmanship means I always flight plan public-transport flights. I assume I will do the same with the PA-31.

I agree that (in the UK) A/G and FISO airfields are not available to IFR traffic, although they are in France, but there is nothing preventing a pilot from changing to IFR as soon as he hits MSA, and flying as such until he is below MSA at the other end. Certainly shall remember now to keep track of any VFR flights in a larger aircraft.

[DFC]

To go back to the Channel Islands question again - the Arrival Charts for the 3 Airports have clear instructions as to routing to be expected when joining at 50N.

Regards,

DFC