? for LGW dep controller

[Togalk]

Hi, on the DVR 8 M (i think) departure the SID altitude is 6000 ft. with 2 restrictions, one at 4000' and one at 5000'. On departure I called "out of 2000 for 6000" and the controller advised me the altitude is 4000. I told him the SID altitude is 6000 with 2 restrictions. What do you want to hear? The first restriction altitude or the actual SID clearance altitude?

[Del Prado]

4000'. there may be traffic climbing out of heathrow, only just out of 4000' and in your vicinity when you call. for you to report climbing to 6000' can be quite a shock.

Looking at it pedantically you could be judged to be correct but you're not climbing to 5000' or 6000' until you have passed the appropriate DME range.

[tigtog]

Bit of a technicality this one as your right when you say cleared atltitude on sid is 6000 (with two stop offs). From a controllers point of view as these are effectively stops rather than "pass not below" we like to hear 4000 as your climbing altitude because the climb to 5 and 6 is a few miles away. This is due to interaction with LL outbound crossing over you who go directty to 6000 so you can understand why we panic when you say climbing 6000.

As I say a bit of a technicality but in short, report climbung to 4
Hope this helps.

TT

[Togalk]

Ok, thanks. I'll pass the word along to the other guys as well.

[bekolblockage]

From a controller's point of view I find the response astounding! If the aircraft is cleared to 6000' on the SID then I would expect the pilot to call climbing to 6000', restriction or no restriction.
If you want to hear the aircraft call climbing to 4000' then why are they not cleared to that initially?

[eyeinthesky]

Simple question: What do you have set in the MCP when you first get airborne? I suspect it is 4000ft, which you will amend to 5000ft and then 6000ft as you pass the various DME points. Or maybe VNAV will do it for you.

Whatever, you are initially climbing to 4000ft and that is what you should report. The reasons for it have already been given.

By the way, you are not "cleared to 6000' on the SID ", bekolblockage. The SID chart explicitly shows mandatory level-offs at 4000ft and 5000 ft, unless (verbally) cleared by ATC.

Your argument would be like saying that just because a STAR shows an expect level of FL80 by HON into EGBB that you should call that as your cleared level even if you are actually still at FL380.

[bekolblockage]

eyeinthesky

I stand corrected if that is the case. I did not have the chart in front of me at the time and took Togalk's statement as correct.
So what level are aircraft actually cleared to on the ground at clearance delivery time?

[Togalk]

Eyeinthesky, Simple answer, 6000' on the FCU. A SID is not like a STAR. If I take off and all the Dep controller says is "continue on the SID" my final altitude will be 6000' without having to hear anything else from him.
And, Yes, I am cleared to 6000' on the SID. The clearance delivery controller doesn't give out alititudes.
From Jeppesen chart EGKK 20-3C "WARNING-STEPPED CLIMB: Due to interaction with other routes pilots must ensure strict compliance with the specified climb profile unless cleared by ATC"

So, like the first two well informed (obviously controllers) guys said, I am technically correct, but after hearing their point of view I can see why they want pilots to call the first restriction.

[bekolblockage]

Whoa!
Now that I've looked at the chart and you say there's no mention of an initial altitude on Clearance Delivery, I'm back with you Togalk. ( word of caution, as my location indicates, I'm not a LGW Dep controller)
Definitley climbing to 6000' in my reading of it. You may have a ROC that means you never level at 4 so that restriction would be obviated.

These are restrictions/requirements not cleared levels in my book. You most definitely ARE climbing to 6000'.

[missy]

Separation assurance, I think NOT!!

[bekolblockage]

Also eyeinthesky, if you're telling me that in the absence of any other instruction airborne, the aircraft will end up at DVR R280/ D33 at 6000', then I would expect the aircraft to call on climb to 6000. That is NOT the same as a STAR expectation level - not around here anyway.

[Right Way Up]

TOGALK,
I suspect you fly a "bus". The problem with setting the higher figure is that if you come out of NAV (many different reason for that), the autopilot will now just see 6000ft.

[Togalk]

Right way up
I was waiting for someone to say that. I do sometimes put the lower altitude in, but I was just making a point about the clearance altitude. But that is a topic for another thread.

[Scott Voigt]

Interesting response from one controller about wanting to hear your first climb altitude and not your actual clearance altitude. Over here we would be questioning if we heard an altitude other than what you are actually cleared too either on a SID or STAR with step ups or downs. We know what your steps are and are also required to ensure that you have the correct clearance limit altitude...

regards

Scott

[Warped Factor]

Could be interesting towards the end of the year when we (TC) start getting your selected level in the MCP downloaded to us via Mode S.

If you come out on a step climb SID with the final level selected expect lots of r/t confirming that you will be stopping at the intermediate level...

WF.

[Northerner]

Hello folks,

I work the LGW deps.

What I want to hear from you is callsign, sid, passing altitude and initial cleared altitude...because that's what my rules tell me I have to know!

From the MATS part 2:

"On first contact with the departure controller, pilots following instrument departures are required to
report their callsign, SID designator (if applicable), current level and initial cleared level.
Where a pilot omits to pass any of the above on first contact, they are to be requested by the departure
controller to provide the missing information before executive instructions are issued to the aircraft."

So on a Lam/Cln/Dvr off westerlies, I want to know that you are initially climbing to 4000, as this ensures you should be separated from the LHR traffic.

However, as correctly pointed out by others, you are cleared to 6000, with the appropriate stop offs on the way.

Clear as Mud?

Great.

Warped Factor, of course we won't be mandated to check the SFL though will we. :E

Cheers,
N

"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."

[missy]

For your CLAMs and STCAs what level is entered in the ATC FDP, by whom and when?

[A I]

Hi missy,

Don't know what a CLAM is (apart from a particularly tasty shellfish) but as far as STCA is concerned there is no relationship to FDP. This function is based on RDP information.

A I

[bekolblockage]

A I

I think missy is referring to Cleared Level Adherence Monitoring. In other words, do you get a warning if the aircraft busts 4000, 6000 or not at all?

[Northerner]

Only warning we would get in TC is if the alt 'bust' caused a possible confliction with something else, activating STCA.

Other than that, we just have to look!!!

Cheers,
N

"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."

[zkdli]

Working in the part of the TMA where this happens, I would say that although you are cleared eventually to 6,000ft you have to make mandatory level offs at specific altitudes.
If you call me and say that you are climbing to 6,000ft i and almost every person that I work with will assume that you have missed the stop off (and that you are using Jeppeson plates:O ). I would then tell you to stop climb at the initial altitude and if you were very close to another aircraft, I would probably write a safety observation about it!

The number of level busts in the LTMA caused by this very type of SID and the fact that pilots miss the initial cleared are too numerous to mention. :O

[Hobo]

I'm retired now but I would hope that all you controllers are telling this to chirp.

As for the bus pilots, I think this is an accident waiting to happen if you really do set 6000 in the MCP when the initial cutoff is 4000.

[missy]

Oh dear, what is happening here?

I would probably write a safety observation about it!

The number of level busts in the LTMA caused by this very type of SID and the fact that pilots miss the initial cleared are too numerous to mention.

Normalised deviation!

How much is the train from Europe to London?

[Barry Cuda]

Missy

It doesn't happen all of the time, and not normally on the scheduled stuff, but it does happen quite often (maybe once a week) with the biz jets etc that fly out of Luton.

The SID restrictions in this area are very specific because in the Brookmans Park area you have LHR outbounds at 6A, Luton outs at 4-5A, City outs at 3A and closeby Stansted outs climbing to 5A. Once you get your head around it it makes sense, but can be quite unnerving if the pilot reports his cleared alt as 6A, especially when the Virgin A340 is crawling through 4.5A....!

[Blue heaven]

This is very interesting, and definitely a safety hazard.

When I am issued a SID by clearance delivery, I am given 6000. I readback 6000 to clearance delivery. When I get airborne, I readback 6000 to departures as it is my cleared altitude, even though the SID has stop off points. These form part of my clearance which I read back to clearance delivery, and I am required to comply.

Now you say I must read back the stop off points as well? Do I also advise when I have left them after maintaining for a short time. Where does it stop?

I think the problem here is with the SID design. SIDs are supposedly designed to reduce workload/RTF etc. Seems to me that the SID in question should be issued with 4000 or 5000 or whatever is required for separation assurance, not develop a local procedure regarding read back requirements.

Fly safe now.:eek:

[A I]

I really don't see what all the fuss is about. If you contact departure radar flying the SID and are climbing to say 4000ft in accordance with the SID then you are climbing to 4000ft not 6000ft. Why not say "climbing initially to 4000ft requesting higher"

A I

[av8boy]

How much is the train from Europe to London?

Oh stop it.

The train is £219.

[eyeinthesky]

How much is the train from Europe to London?

Err: £0.00 (as we are already 'an integral part of Europe', aren't we??)

If you mean, how much is the train from CONTINENTAL Europe to London, then the figure already given may well be right...

[Slaphead]

The UK AIC 73/2001 (Yellow 58) RTF Discipline-Initial Calls On Frequency addresses the specific question and provides the answer refered to by Northener etc.

'The UK AIP states 'The pilots of all aircraft flying Instrument Departures should include at least the following items of information on first contact with Approach Control/Departure Radar;

a) Callsign
b) SID Designator where appropriate
c) Current or passing ALT/FL: plus,
d) cleared Alt/FL. For SIDs involving stepped climb profiles, state the INITIAL Alt/Fl to which the aircraft is climbing' (My capitals)

An example of the issue is a Lambourne departure from Gatwick. From 26L the SID has the following altitude restrictions;

Cross
DET D29 at 4000' or below
DET D15 (ACORN) at 5000'
LAM D15 at 5000'
LAM D10 at 6000'
LAM VOR at 6000'

On departure your INITIAL cleared altitude is 4000 feet and this is the level we want to hear along with the other details stated above. If your intitial call is somewhere between DET D28 and D15 your initial cleared altitude is 5000 feet, this is the level we want to hear. The final SID altitude is 6000 feet but you only climb to it, and you should only report climbing to it, once you have passed the DME restrictions or are instructed to climb by ATC.

The SID plate in the UK AIP also includes the information to be included on first contact;

4 Callsign for RTF frequency used when instructed after take-off 'London Control'. Report callsign, SID designator, current altitude and initial cleared altitude on first contact with 'London Control'.

There were 64 reported level busts in 2003 and 2004 combined where aircraft have failed to follow the SID correctly, at least 50 of those involve a step climb SID.

[Mister Geezer]

Why not make the SID easier and just have a block restriction at 4000 feet? No cause for confusion.

[Barry Cuda]

Why not make the SID easier and just have a block restriction at 4000 feet? No cause for confusion.

Because if the a/c went R/T fail after take off it would run out of controlled airspace within about 10 miles. At least the stepped climb gives it a chance to stay "safe" for about 60 miles.

[Warped Factor]

The steps also take the traffic above other SIDs that are climbing underneath with their own steps.

Heathrow gets the best deal, everything to 6,000ft with the other airfields all fitting in underneath.

Worst case scenario doing away with steps altogether...LCY deps might have to go via the Blackwall Tunnel and the M25 :)

WF.