Disagreement in the Air

[Kanu]

I was recently flying towards a CTA at about 1500ft tracking a VOR radial. I was spot on this radial and totally sure of my position. I was then asked to verify my height and the radial I was tracking. Once the ATCO had this info she told me that my track took me into controlled airspace, which it did not. It took me under her airspace by a good 1000'.

My question is - Should I have argued the toss with the controller or just bit my tongue (as I did)?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I'd probably have asked for clarification. Maybe the base of the airspace had been lowered since my map had been printed, or something.

[S-Works]

I had the same problem with Luton recently. After investigation it turned out they were wrong. I got an apology. Controllers make mistakes.

[bookworm]

It would make it easier if you told us what the VOR, radial and airspace was.

[Kanu]

Compton VOR 000 deg M and the Solent CTA. Routing Bembridge to CPT.

It left me :mad: for the rest of the trip. May still be wrong though. Thoughts?

[ShyTorque]

Don't get drawn into an argument in the air; chances are you will end up not concentrating on your flying for some time afterwards which is a bad flight safety hazard.

Politely tell the controller that you thought not and say you will ring them to discuss it once safely on the ground. You can then blow each other's gaskets to your heart's content on the phone. ;)

[High Wing Drifter]

Kanu,

I think she may have had a point in being concerned. It seems to me that 360 radial inbound to CPT would have taken you through the extreme edge of the CTR. Also the CTA steps down to 2000' on your track. Your track would have only left you 1000' below the CTA if you were flying at 1000' which would break Rule 5 at at leat one location.

In addition you must take into account the fact that the VOR tolerance is +/-5 deg. With that variance you could have been the CTR.

[Flap40]

Sorry, but I'm with HWD on this.

The NE corner is just over 30 miles from CPT and is smack on the 180 radial (not 000 as you put) so using the 1:60 rule and the allowed tolerance for a VOR, you could have been 2.5NM inside without knowing it.

However..... congratulations on not relying on a GPS ;) ;) ;)

[IO540]

Flap40 has got it right - get a decent GPS. One can't rely on a VOR from that far away for the accuracy required to miss a corner of controlled airspace nearly 30 miles away. Especially with VOR receivers in "VFR" trainers, if this was a self fly hire plane. However, one gets a lot more press coverage if one busts CAS with a GPS ;)

Having a DME and making sure one was at least say 10D to SAM would have been far better. If the airport in question has no VOR/DME but has an ILS, the ILS usually has a DME on the same frequency setting as the ILS.

Not sure of HWD's Rule 5 point though, relative to the ATCO's comment. It isn't up to ATC to query one's glide performance - even if they might be right.

However, I do know that occassionally ATC do claim a pilot is infringing when in fact he isn't YET - it's just his extended radar track happens to look like he might be soon.

[Flap40]

I knew I'd get a bite :)

...just didn't expect it to be so soon!

[Flybywyre]

Just wondering why you were relying on a VOR 20 -30 miles away when SAM was just a few miles away and would have given you a much more accurate fix ?
Anyway you did the right thing by not arguing on the air. If you do have a problem regarding ATC they will always be happy to chat to you on the phone when you land.
Regards
FBW

[Maxflyer]

I experienced the very same thing on the same route recently. My track from the CPT VOR took me into the Farnborough MATZ. I then freecalled Solent APP who told me I had infringed Controlled Airspace. I felt reasonably sure I hadn't, but I am still relatively low timed and didn't feel confident enough to debate the point.

I did exactly as Shy Torque suggested, apologised and said I would make contact on reaching Bembridge. I duly contacted the Controller and he was certain I had entered his airspace, but would not make it official. It spoilt what had, up until then been a really good flight.

On reflection I still believe I was not in CA as I was at 1900' when told I was at fault (this takes me under the zone and my QNH was not questioned). However, I had the opportunity to visit Swanwick last year and having seen how busy the airspace is in the solent area, I guess it doesn't make things easy for controlloers when we are close to their area of operation.

As a point of interest I was not using GPS. (Wish I had!)

[Miserlou]

I would be inclined to submit to the ATC in this case but only due to the fact that my chart would probably be way out of date (as a matter of principle).

However, I wouldn't be talking to any-one as is my right. It is also your right to fly right up to and along the boundary of the airspace. I'm guessing you were flying VFR so you were of course looking out of the window and identifying the ground features which run along the boundary. To be conservative you could fly up the radial with a half scale fly left indication.

Some controllers don't like people getting close to their airspace. Do not tolerate incompetance.
A friend of mine got a phone call from a controller once for doing aerobatics 'close' to his ATZ including threat of reporting. Said friend promptly took off and returned to area and called up on frequency and asked to have his position confirmed on radar. Turns out he was where he said he was and having established this was outside of controlled airspace he asked why, then, he would be reported for it. When asked to call when he landed he pointed out that he wanted the situation on tape and for the tapes to be pulled. Never had a problem again.

But you've got to be sure you're right to do this.

[S-Works]

MaxFlyer....And when you landed at Bembridge you had a face like a hang dog!! Better not mention special branch at this point...... :p

I have had the same problem with Solent controllers on a number of occassions and with more navigation gear than the space shuttle I HAVE been certain of my position. I think they extrapolate the radar trace and then use a potential bust as grounds to send people around the edge rather than deal with them.

The problem with Solent is they think they are Heathrow and dont want any of us "mere" hobby jockeys in there airpspace. "stay clear of controlled airpspace we have a jet leaving in a few minutes" is the common one, then 10 mins later you hear it go. Heathrow are just far enough apart for wake turbulance!

Conversly I have never been refused a transit by Heathrow and recently from Redhill got an overflight of the runways on a SVFR clearance in the twin. Does bring home just how busy Heathrow is!

Solent need to talk a long hard look at themselves and the service they provide as in mine and many other peoples view they are probably the most unhelpfull and rude of the controllers out there most of the time. Not to say it is all bad, somedays the service is very pleasant.

What I dont understand is how Bournemouth who I think are the same controllers are so much more cooperative (or seem to be)......

[IO540]

SAM wouldn't have been any good for that (keeping clear of Southampton's CTR) unless the man had a DME.

I agree that extrapolation of radar tracks seems to be a problem. It happens especially when switching the autopilot from HDG mode to NAV mode, when the track changes for a while while the AP is sorting out the wind correction. A radar controller could see some weird extrapolations...

[almost professional]

just out of interest you did not say whether or not the ATCO had identified you on radar, if not then how could they be certain-personally I need to make very sure the aircraft I am about to admonish is the correct one !

[Flybywyre]

SAM wouldn't have been any good for that (keeping clear of Southampton's CTR) unless the man had a DME

Neither would CPT without a DME........
But I think we can safely assume the AC was fitted with a DME. If it wasn't then SAM would still have been the preffered VOR for establishing your position using cross cuts

[Kanu]

My position was never in doubt. I didn't need the SAM VOR for position fix and I was tracking to the CPT then DTY VORs . Looking back at other posts I can appreciate the controllers position. She was incredibly busy and imo just needed an excuse to get rid of me to ease workload. My track would indeed have taken me very close to her CTA/R and it would have taken time out of her day to make sure I didn't deviate from my heading.

I refuse to use GPS for the time being. I've spent so long learning 1940's technology, I thought I'd make the most of it first :D

[Circuit Basher]

Similar one when routing from Glenrothes (sorry, Fife International!) to Cumbernauld direct (around 1500 ft QNH). Was on Glenrothes frequency until abeam Kelty, around 1 mile N of Kelty (with DME to EDI showing around 11.5 nm), and transferred to Scottish Info.

Scottish Info said that EDI were trying to call me, who said that I was in their airspace - I expressed surprise, as I was at least 1.5 miles outside the zone, but didn't make a fight of it and took their clearance / squawk to the flare stack at Grangetown / Kincardine Bridge. I may have been approaching their TMA, which is Class E, but was not planning to enter it.

Talking to a friend who was an ATCO at EDI a few months later during a visit to EDI ATC, he said that due to the blurring of primary returns, it was difficult to assess the exact position of GA aircraft in relation to zone boundaries. Established practice if in any doubt was to accuse the pilot of being in controlled airspace and let him / her defend himself!

[Steevee]

I had a similar experience with Luton a few months ago. I was routing round to the East of the zone, flying VFR in excellent visibility and with full sight of ground features. I had another pilot with me who was helping with navigation and we were both 100% certain that we were outside the zone. When asking to leave the frequency some distance further on, I was surprised to be told by the controller that I had infringed the zone. I politely responded that I did not believe that I had done so and was told "Well it doesn't matter, no harm done." I didn't want to make an issue of it, but both I and my co-pilot were puzzled and irritated and wondered if we had been confused with another aircraft.

On an earlier occasion when approaching the Cardiff zone, I was unexpectedly asked by the controller to confirm that I was squawking 7000, and responded "Affirm". His response was "Are you sure?" to which I replied "That's what the instrument says". I heard him then contact another aircraft to ask the same question, at which point it was confirmed that the other aircraft was transmitting 7700. He then became the target of the controller's wrath and I was left alone.

Both experiences made me realise that it may sometimes be difficult for controllers to tell the difference between aircraft, or that, like the rest of us, they occasionally make mistakes.

[FlyingForFun]

I'm sure I posted this story soon after it happened, but it seems relevant, so I'll post it again.

A few months ago, I was flying someone over his house, which happened to be extremely close to the edge of the Manchester zone. I felt that it was polite to give Manchester a call, just so they knew who it was that was hanging around the edge of their zone. When I told them what my detail was, they immediately told me I was "cleared into the zone if you need to, let me know when you're leaving." A very pleasant surprise!

So, from now on, any time my track takes me close to the edge of a zone, I will call up the controller and let them know that I'm going to be close to the edge of their zone. If they happen to have a quiet period, it's quite possible they'll clear you into the zone, which at the very least takes all the pressure of worrying about staying outside the zone away.

FFF
---------------

[Warped Factor]

bose,

Conversly I have never been refused a transit by Heathrow and recently from Redhill got an overflight of the runways on a SVFR clearance in the twin. Does bring home just how busy Heathrow is!

Just curious, what time of day was it?

WF.

[S-Works]

WF, Why did I bust someones airspace!!!!

:O

[Miserlou]

FFF,
I hope you don't call them when they are busy.
There's nothing worse than having to wait for some-one who doesn't need to be talking to finish when there are people who do need to be talking and can't.

If you need or want to use their space then go ahead.

It's just a pet hate of mine, excess radio. I wonder why people can't enjoy flying without telling the world what they're up to.

[dmjw01]

The problem with Solent is they think they are Heathrow and dont want any of us "mere" hobby jockeys in there airpspace. "stay clear of controlled airpspace we have a jet leaving in a few minutes" is the common one, then 10 mins later you hear it go.
I hear people say this a lot about Solent, and it really puzzles me. I've lost count of the number of transits they've given me, and not once have they refused. Yep, that's a 100% success rate!

Most recently was on Sunday (twice). I arrived on frequency at Petersfield wanting an overhead transit at 2000'. The controller was very busy vectoring traffic onto his ILS, but after an initial "remain outside" he called me back with the usual "expect transit Bishops Waltham to Romsey via SAM, I'll call you back to confirm". Sure enough, I was cleared through with traffic sliding down the ILS. Same story on the way home.

Cut Solent some slack! ;)

[Miserlou]

dmjw01,
I think it's about people who are complaining that they are getting interfered with when they are outside of the zone.

Perhaps, my earlier moan is directed more at the pilots who call when they don't need to and get the hump about being offered advice; if they hadn't checked in on the frequency they wouldn't have been offered advice.

[tmmorris]

I've had Solent reply to my request for a transit 'Negative, route via Romsey', to which I replied 'Negative, descending to altitude XXXXft' (can't remember now, but it was just below their airspace). They appeared to think I was under their control in class G airspace... Cutting their nose off to spite their face: they would have been better off granting the transit as I would then have been under positive control. I submitted a report under the CHIRP investigation into class D transits at the time.

If you take the CPT180 route, you do need to check visual features too- I used New Alresford to check I was not inside the zone, which I wasn't. If I was IMC I'd have routed further east.

On the way home, on the other hand, I was granted a transit without question.

Tim

[Evil J]

And to clarify an earlier post-Solent controllers and Bournemouth controllers are not the same people- Solent are employed by National Air Traffic Services and Bournemouth by the Manchecter Airports Group.

And I would have to agree that as a controller, it really gets my goat when I hear other controllers telling pilots outside CAS what to do (unless they want it ofcourse)- I find you get a far better response if it is made in the form of a polite request:-

" To keep you clear of inbound jet traffic request you fly not above 2000 feet on QNH xxxx" works quite nicely.

I have been known (as discussed on an ealier thread about a certain Scottish Mil unit) to refuse altitude restrictions because they were phrased as if I didin't have a choice.

As a wise Chilli Monster once said "dont bull sh*t a bull Shi**er!!"

And when did Farnborough get a MATZ???????

[eyeinthesky]

Another example of over-controlling:

The other day I wanted to do a few orbits of a place underneath the ILS for Cambridge. I was at 900ft QNH (700 AGL) at about 5.5 DME. This put me well underneath the glideslope, in good VMC conditions in Class G airspace. Out of politeness, I called Cambridge Approach and informed them of my presence. They called a C150 on a procedural approach as traffic and I had it visual whilst I carried on with my business. Imagine my suprise when I was instructed by Cambridge Approach, who were using primary radar only and had not identified me on radar, to fly a northerly heading because I was 'in the way of the C150'. This was despite being at least 700ft below the traffic, visual with it, and in open FIR. In the interests of good relations I complied, but in retrospect thought it a bit much!

Generally I have had good service from Cambridge, but I think on this occasion they were overstepping the mark somewhat.

By the way, I agree with those who say give Solent some slack. I have generally had no trouble with them, but must confess it is often the same voice which refuses the transits...

They do also need to teach some of their Tower controllers that to clear someone to land on 02 when they report 6 miles with two light aircraft at the holding point is not particularly expeditious!

[almost professional]

never a truer word EJ-and your typing is getting worse

[Warped Factor]

bose,

WF, Why did I bust someones airspace!!!!

I trust not :)

Just that if it was between say, 6am and 11pm, then in 16 years of doing ATC at Heathrow I've never known fixed wing traffic to be given a S to N (or vice versa) SVFR clearance over the airfield as described. At least not on purpose but then that's a different story ;)

I'm surprised they managed to get all the co-ordination that would have been required done without holding you somewhere well south of the airfield for around 10 minutes. I assume there were no arrivals, unusual in itself, unless it was very early or very late.

Or was it a twin heli? :)

WF.

[S-Works]

we got lucky then as we did not hold, mind you I did call them on the climb out o Redhill so they knew well in advacen we were coming.

i have to say I am still very impressed with the way they accomodated the request.

[Circuit Basher]

djmw01 - my personal experience with Solent has been mixed - I've finished up having to orbit at the Bournemouth / Solent boundary just waiting for Solent to talk to me after taking off from Bournemouth on 08 to head eastbound, then Solent keeping me waiting, saying they were too busy to talk to me for around 20 mins. As others have said, I don't escalate the situation whilst in the air (I don't know what other freqs / telephones that Solent are talking on at the time, although the Solent Radar freq was pretty quiet), but would usually plan my route around the Solent zone due to the perceived low level of service I've received in the past. This has happened several times - only once or twice have I actually received the crossing I wanted (and that's when I was on an IMC course, headed inbound for SOU).

Not a dig at Solent per se, who are all VERY nice people :D, just a statement of past experiences.

[Warped Factor]

bose,

i have to say I am still very impressed with the way they accomodated the request.

I'm more amazed than impressed.

:)

WF.

[eastern wiseguy]

miserlou

my chart would probably be way out of date (as a matter of principle).


Now there is a responsible way to conduct a flight! :confused: :rolleyes: