Trans Atlantic - Single Eng. - A question

[Ni Thomas]

A question to the Air Law Gurus:-
Background:-
Our planned X-Atlantic trip (Stornoway / Iceland / Greenland / Canada/USA) this month, in a Mooney with extended tanks + all the kit + attendance at Ed Calson's lectures etc etc has just hit a glitch!!
Owner - USA CPL + IFR + CFII etc ratings
Me - UK & USA PPL (A measley but nice IMC!)

Problem:-
Owners just lost his medical!!! At this ruddy late stage ... I ask you!!! :yuk:

Question:
Can we still fly across with me as PIC (trainee IFR) pilot using his IFR & CFII ratings?
Some learned guru speak & pointers would be nice. Thanks

[airborne_artist]

Let's put it the other way round - if you didn't know the guy before, and he offered you the trip on that basis, would you take it?

How do you think the insurance company would take it?

[Ni Thomas]

Thanks for your thoughts....

But I've known him for years - we've flown all over together - including Greece and other exotic places.... I'll gladly fly with him.

We've been planning this for a year or so.

He's checking on the insurance aspects. That's a separate issue.

We've had one "It's OK " response from a well respected source ... I'm just double checking the LEGALITY.

[Fuji Abound]

I dont know the answer but .. .. ..

logically I would think it to be no - unfortunately .. .. ..

because if he has lost his medically presumably they feel he could have a medical "event" in flight which could incapacitate him. If this happened you would no longer be PIC under training.

Not wishing to be pedantic but presumably you mean he has an FAA IR not an IFR. Presumably the aircraft is on the N reg?

[topcat450]

Probably not what you want to hear however if he's lost his medical surely all his privalages are revoked too until he regains his medical. I'd have thought it's a no-no.

[Ni Thomas]

>Not wishing to be pedantic but presumably you mean he has an FAA IR not an IFR. Presumably the aircraft is on the N reg?<

I just love pedantics!
Presumptions correct: He has FAA IR + A/C is N registered.
Don't suppose it changes anything though - Or does it?

My understanding was that FAA licensed chap/chapettes DO cross as trainees with FAA IR rated 'instructors' who don't have a valid medical (I've only heard of this being undertaken on USA licensed Registered a/c's)
You can see perhaps my quandry! Some say 'yes', some say 'no'!.
I'm having difficulty tracking down the extact (easily understood!) bit of legislation.

[Justiciar]

To exercise the privileges of any licence or rating you have to have a valid medical. That is, as far as I know, an ICAO standard.

So, the most you could do is VFR all the way to the US. It would be illegal to fly IFR in the circumstances you describe. If you do get away with that, what will you say to the Canadians when they check that one of you has a valid IR for the return trip?

You cannot be a student of a pilot who cannot himself exercise the privileges of his licence, which includes his Instructor Rating. I haven't the time to check FAR/AIM but I am sure you will find the rules in the licensing section. It is fairly fundamental to all countries.

[OVC002]

I think you might be able to act as a safety pilot. As long as you are rated in the category and class of aircraft, in this case SEL, he can rely on your medical whilst exercising the privileges of his certificate. This assumes that you have a valid FAA ticket.

[Flyin'Dutch']

You have to find out whether you can fly (from an insurance and regulation point) with just your PPL.

Your mate is to all intents and purposes just a passenger if he has not got his medical.

I believe (but would have to check) that FIs with lapsed medicals can still train you for say an IR as long as you can fly the aeroplane on your privileges (as in for your case simulated IMC with foggles) and that is then likely only to be in US airspace. You would have to check the FAR/AIM for that; electronic copy of that online just google it.

[flyingfemme]

No medical - no licence or rating. No PIC.

It is possible to do that route VFR, keeping under 5,500ft. I wouldn't recommend it from a safety point of view and you may have some problems with radio reception............

The insurance company would, of course, need to be notified of these changes before you depart.

As for "instructors" without medicals.........not on my ops, mate.

[Ni Thomas]

Thanks for all your thoughts and considered opinions.
To answer one or two points raised ... ...
1) He won't be PIC (not now anyway!)
2) He won't be serving as a required flight crew member.
3) It's not a heart thing or a sudden fall off perch and keel over problem ... my pal is ...errr..errrrummm ... how can I put this delicately ? ..... urinally challenged.

Someone has kindly pointed me in the direction of the US FARs which might raise a few eyebrows or bring a smile back - it depends on your point of view ....... I think #61.23 (b)(5) might fit the bill (see below)....
What do you reckon?
In the meantime I'm investing in some emergency buckets and a Transair/Sporty's 'Little John' thingy (or three) to go with everything else.

QUOTE:
§ 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.
(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a valid medical certificate—
........
(4) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate with—
(i) A sport pilot rating in a glider or balloon; or
(ii) A glider category rating;

(5) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as pilot in command or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember;
..............
UNQUOTE

[Fuji Abound]

"When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as pilot in command or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember"

I think you have it - the purpose of the wording is presumably to enable a FI with a lost medical to train a pilot who is acting within the privileges of his licence.

As you know if you are flying an N reg aircraft you have no IR priviliges even with an IMC in UK airspace. Therefore outside UK airspace you would not be entitled to operate within class A airspace at all or in any other class other than in VMC.

[Ni Thomas]

Just in case anyone was foolish enough to think I was correct!
It WOULD be illegal to conduct the flight as previously espoused.

From the gist of what the FARs state:-

If the trainee is hooded, the instructor DOES become a required pilot crewmember per 91.109(b)(1), and must have a medical per 61.23(a)(3)(i) unless there is a third pilot (with PPL or better and a current medical) aboard acting as safety pilot from a "control seat" (i.e., one with flight controls) while the instructor instructs from the back seat. This will be impossible for us due to the a) shortage of safety pilot & b) no seat for the instructor (because of the ferrry tank!). If we are operating under IFR (and we will be), the PIC must have an instrument rating or an ATP ticket per 61.3(e), and the PIC must per 61.23 have a current medical and per 91.105(a) be in a control seat.

It just wouldn't work:{
I have therefore had to postpone the crossing until the aircraft owner stops taking the pills or drops dead (whereupon I'll cancel it!!)
Iceland is safe for yet another year!.
Thanks to all for their input.

[cortilla]

Why don't you call an FAA FISO in the states and get it straight from the proverbial horses mouth??

[2Donkeys]

Your friend's IR will not be valid for flight since he has no medical.

You don't have a valid instrument qualification.

Therefore the flight will be VFR.

The chances of making it across the Atlantic in VMC are pretty much nil. Since you will be forced low level by class A airspace for much of the run, you will lack VHF contact for hundreds of miles and you will lack the ability to climb above the weather - a tactic which can occasionally save your bacon.

Finally, and this is the real killer. Transport Canada requires pilots flying the Atlantic to hold a valid instrument rating. In truth, you are unlikely to be checked, but it is worthwhile knowing that your plans REQUIRE you to break the law before setting off.

Finally. Your chances of getting insurance with one Supernumary pilot (no medical) and one unqualified pilot are slim-to-zero.

This is a no-hoper and you need to do some replanning - as I think you have worked out.

2D

PS: I trust the previous poster has US FSDO in mind since FISOs are in short supply in the land of the free.

[cortilla]

FSDO yup that's what i meant, but havn't been to the states since 1998