Unreported Incidents

[nginear]

About 10 months ago a serious incident occurred with two jets on final approach to a regional airport in the UK. This incident was reported to the Air Traffic Manager who failed to report further. and it was never investigated. My question is, how many other people are doing this?

[Lon More]

Recent discussion here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174009)

[nginear]

Sorry should have said "how many units are hiding this?". In todays society the reports should be made if they are not then the bullit should hit them.

[ferris]

In today's 'benchmarking' environments, often a manager's remuneration is linked to his KPI's, and incidents/movement is a common KPI.

So, do you think this fosters an open and honest safety culture? Yeah right. From the top down. Safety and commerce make interesting bedfellows.

[ILS 119.5]

In the interests of safety all incidents should be reported. Failure to do so shows a lack of professional conduct and should be treated as gross misconduct. I'm sure that the fare paying passengers would not be happy if they knew that incidents were not being reported. All accidents are a chain of events, this could be the start.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

nginear provides no information in his profile about what aspect of aviation he is involved in - I'd like to know. I'd also like to hear more about the alleged "incident". Plenty of members of the public see "terrifying" incidents which turn out to be quite normal, safe operations.

In the UK I've only worked at one other airport apart from Heathrow and at the latter every incident was fully investigated.

[PPRuNe Radar]

About 10 months ago a serious incident occurred with two jets on final approach to a regional airport in the UK. This incident was reported to the Air Traffic Manager who failed to report further.

Reported by whom ??

The pilots and controllers involved have a Mandatory Occurrence Scheme which they can (and indeed on occasion are legally obliged to) use to make the necessary reports themselves. They can make the report direct to the CAA and be independent of any management chain.

If it was a member of the public who made their concerned 'report', then the professionals involved obviously had no concerns and there was no 'MOR' incident. End of story.

More detail required if you want the real answer to your query.

[nginear]

It was reported by one of the ATCO's to the Air Traffic Manager. Please read the link provided by Lon More for more info.

[PPRuNe Radar]

And the ATCO didn't insist it was sent or sent it direct themselves to SRG when the MATS did nothing about it ??

Guess who's breaking the law ?? (Both of them it seems !!)

6 Reporting Procedure

6.1 Submission of Reports

6.1.1 The ANO places the primary responsibility for reporting with individuals. However, the interests of flight safety are best served by full participation, in the investigation and follow-up, by the organisation involved. Therefore, wherever possible, the CAA encourages the use of company reporting systems, with a responsible person(s) within the organisation being nominated to receive all reports and to establish which reports from individuals within the organisation meet the desired criteria for an occurrence report to the CAA. Correlation of operational and technical aspects and the provision of any relevant supplementary information, e.g. the reporter’s assessment and immediate action to control the problem, is an important part of such activity. With such systems the reporting level within the organisation can be, and often is, set at a lower level than the CAA requirement in order to provide a wider monitoring of the organisation’s activities. However, when the employee making such a report is a person having a duty to report to the CAA in accordance with the ANO, the company must tell him if his report has been passed on to the CAA or not. If not, and the employee is convinced that it should, he must have the right to insist that the report be passed to the CAA or to report it directly to the CAA himself. Procedures to ensure that this right of the individual reporter is maintained must be incorporated into the organisation’s reporting procedures and be clearly stated in the relevant instructions to staff.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

If it was a scary incident how come the pilots didn't file a report?

[qcode]

What a great lack of professionalism. When I look at the associated thread I cannot believe it, not because I do not think it is untrue but the whole scenario. Members of the UK Airprox board failing to report incidents. Unit Managers failing to report incidents. ATCO's failing to report incidents. SRG failing to do anything about it. What is going on? This is not a small matter but a major one, failure to act on people who are breaking the law is inexcusable. The aviation profession is supposed to be the safest and most highly regulated one in the world. Obviousely not.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

qcode - someone else who prefers to remain totally anonymous. Why don't you publish some details in your profile??

[nginear]

HD

I figured out what you used to do for a living by your user name. I realise you were only an ATCO so if you cannot figure what I do then I will explain. I am an ENGINEER. If you need further clarification the please look in the dictionary, I cannot find one for you.

Rgds

[qcode]

The whole point is, regardless of being anonymous (which is the point of this forum), is the lack of professional people complying with the rules that they are supposed to comply with. The issue of worldwide aviation safety issues which have to be complied with is very important. People are breaking the law and getting away with it. Wait for the results of the next major aviation catastrophe, lack of reporting could be part of the cause. It has been aired here, if nothing is done about it then it will have at least been recorded.
I hope you aviation professionals have got the balls to sort it out, I'm going on holiday in two weeks and if my plane crashes due to anything concerned with this then my lawyer is ready.

[5milesbaby]

Having filed against myself for something that was entirely my fault I cannot see why others cannot do the same. We are all human and will make the occasional mistake. I found out some things about myself by following my investigation and it only makes me a better controller having been there. I will never file an incident thats not related directly to me, but would hope the controllers concerned do themselves. I will mention things to my managers, but its up to them where they take that.

[Lon More]

From the original thread:I heard of an incident where two jets on final approach got so close that the 2nd one had to be broken off by the watch manager who was working the approach radar position but transmitted on the tower frequency to give the instructions. The incident was reported to the Air Traffic Manager who then failed to report to the CAA or pursue any further action. The watch manager then reported to the air traffic manager that the initial reporter of the incident had attended work under the influence of alchohol. The reporting person was then suspended and subsequently resigned.

The key word being "heard"

If you are looking for serious comment post something more authorative than that.

Despite being "only an ATCO" HD has probably been in aviation a lot longer than you and although that does not automatically qualify him for respect I would consider his posts carefully before jumping in with both feet.

BTW Didn't engineers build the Titanic? :8

qcode the lack of professional people complying with the rules that they are supposed to comply with. Maybe you would like to insert the word "allegedly" in there somewhere?

[PPRuNe Radar]

The whole point is, regardless of being anonymous (which is the point of this forum),

Actually that's NOT the point of this Forum, it is merely one of the operating conditions for it. The point of the Forum is to discuss ATC topics.

I hope you aviation professionals have got the balls to sort it out, I'm going on holiday in two weeks and if my plane crashes due to anything concerned with this then my lawyer is ready.

Pretty slim odds, but no doubt compensation is covered in law (Warsaw Convention, etc). Hopefully your lawyer will be bigger and better than those which get the big bucks from airlines, ATC, manufacturers, etc. Does he practice in aviation compensation as his main job ?


119.5

I heard about the incident. It also appears that the Air Traffic Manager is on the UK Joint Airprox Board. So it looks to me that the Investigators of incidents are not reporting such events at their own units. Sounds to me like a case of "I better not report that one as it affects me and my position and status in the community". Not like "I'd better report this one as I am a professional and it would not look good that a member of the airprox board was not reporting incidents as we are supposed to do".

The most unprofessional action here lies with the ATCO involved who did NOT ensure that he complied with the MOR scheme. If the ATS Manager said he was not submitting the report , and told the ATCO filing it he was not doing so, then he is complying with the Scheme. Responsibility for submitting the report then lies with the Reporting ATCO. It seems to me like some folk are trying to make **** stick to the Manager ATS, which kind of backfires when you read the MOR Scheme requirements. Whilst it is desireable that an employer has open reporting and will forward everything to the CAA, they are not legally mandated to do so. Provided they have the facility for staff to be told that their report is not being submitted and a right for them either to insist the company do send it or a right to send it themselves, then the law is being adhered to.

[Tower Ranger]

nginear

I`m not normally given to comments of a personal nature as I don`t see the point unless there`s a bit of humour involved but in this case I`m prepared to make an exception.

Having previously read your posts on "slot abuse" it appears from your tone that you have some serious issues particularly with regard to the Satco at your unit.

Perhaps it may be more prudent to have a word with him face to face rather than just use this forum to have a dig in disguise about things that from your point of view are only hearsay and as for having a pop at HD even an engineer should no better!!

Kind Regards TR

[Scott Voigt]

Over here it is much easier. You report the incident to your supervisor who is supposed to report it up the chain. The good news is that if someone higher up sits on it and gets caught, that is one of our firing offenses <G>...

regards

Scott

[PPRuNe Radar]

Sounds like an excellent scheme Scott :ok:

Do ATCOs also have the 'get out of jail free' card if they file a NASA Air Safety Report instead ??

[Scott Voigt]

Yes under the provisions of the report, however, we don't really use it as we have other protections that pretty much keep the agency at bay, but they are getting nastier by the day it seems. Our wonderful administrator seems to be bowing up even more than the past and is blaming we controllers for all of her woes. We've been trying to keep up with her in the press to ensure that the facts come out. But she is gearing up for contract negotiations so as to make us look like a bunch of greedy buggers. Might be a bit harder this time around since I bet we aren't going to be asking for much of anything in gains <G>...

regards

Scott

[Widger]

Nginear,

I thought you had stopped throwing muck about some weeks ago. What is it between you and this individual that you feel the need to keep slagging him off.

With regard to anonymity, this individual was "outed" quite publicly in a previous forum about slot abuse as already mentioned.

So what is it? Turn down your aplication for a job or something?

Give it a rest!

[stillin1]

Nginear,
Can't help but agree with the previous post. Read yourself, you come over as a whinging rumour peddlar. Put up or shut up! AND that should not be on this forum.

If you have the facts and a valid complaint tell the powers that be and pack in the childish rant here. You are like a kid who did'nt get picked for the team. ILS should give this a thought too!:mad:

[qcode]

Serious problems here:-

Members of the UK Airprox Board not reporting incidents.

UK Aviation safety being in doubt due to this.

SAFETY doesn't look good to me if these people are in charge.

[Widger]

qcode,

I am sorry but you are just stirring it. There are no facts to back up these ludicrous suggestions

[stillin1]

qcode,

What facts do you have to support your "statement / or as W aptly puts it - stirring"?

Are there any facts?

and
Why not contact the relevant authorities with them instead of wittering on this forum?


If this is a "serious problem" - get serious.

I just get the feeling that you find the slander more fun than the facts!

Maybe I'm just too sensitive a chap:yuk:

[qcode]

I have no evidence, and as if the thread suggests because of the non reporting of the incident , then there will not be any. My point is that in a safety concious professional environment, these things should not happen. If nobody says anything then the industry becomes unsafe due to lack of professionalism. If it is true that a member of the UK Airprox Board is not reporting incidents then they should be severely reprimanded. This is not a personal vendetta against any one individual but a statement to keep the aviation industry as safe as possible. Come on guys, if you professionals are not willing to make the industry safe then who is?

[Jerricho]

I have no evidence

For someone who has no evidence and who has based comments questioning the professionalism of my ATC brothers and sisters, you're very lucky I don't tell you to go and get stuffed.

It is outrageous that you feel you can use comments that cast even the slightest dispersion on ANY aviation professional based on the loose premise this thread has begun with. Let alone contine to spread your totally unfounded and quite inflammatory jibes regarding what appears to be an ill informed opinion regarding ATCO's attitude to saftey in our business. I for one am insulted.

I openly challenge you to reveal what you profession is, in an attempt to glean what authority you have to base your accusations on.

And before you decide to come out with "Oh, big words from somebody hiding on an internet forum", quite a few people here do know me, and know I would say that quite happily to your face.

[stillin1]

So if I have got this right - you have joined in stirring up sh#t based upon hearsay and little else - certainly NO fact.


"If nobody says anything then the industry becomes unsafe due to lack of professionalism".


Could it just be possible that there is nothing to report?
Could it just be possible that the "professionals" know / knew thier job?
Could it just be possible that you have joined in with pushing unsubstantiated crap?

"I have no evidence, and as if the thread suggests because of the non reporting of the incident , then there will not be any".

= cos nothing wos done it proves there is a cover-up.

Nice logic ace!:\

[Gonzo]

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean you're not all out to get me!:}

[qcode]

For your information, I am a 30 year old student writing a thesis on "Human Factors In Aviation" for my PHD. I have an ATPL and have 2000 hrs flying experience. I have also studied all the ATC manuals. I have studied and know more of the the Human Factor side of things than many of you. My aim is to become a consultant in Aviation Human Factors in the UK or for ICAO. If you guys and gals cannot see fundamental problems within your business then there is a severe problem. If the thread is true then there is a fundamental problem, which could lead to major accidents. It is up to you to sort it out, not me. If you cannot sort it then there is another major problem. At least I will not be the one in the dock.

[Behindblooeyes]

Ah, you've read all the books..... I tried that once, read a book on how to play chess, seemed simple enough to me but strangely it didn't make me an expert!

If I were you I'd dip out now before the flack really starts!

[Jerricho]

I have no evidence

You're quite obviously dodging the biggest statement you have made so far, aren't you. You mention you're writing a thesis. One would hope you're not just basing it on conjecture, hearsay and rumour.
"I have no evidence for my thesis, but I overheard this guy who was telling this other guy he heard.........." :rolleyes:

Booksmarts you say. I know more than operational controllers.......give me a break.

If you guys and gals cannot see fundamental problems within your business then there is a severe problem

Actually, I have changed my mind.

Get stuffed.

[stillin1]

Oh well that explains it all then.:yuk:
your mind is made up
you have read a book
pootled about in an aircraft
are a personal friend of Ziggy Freud
and display the ego of a true believer

We are just not worthy. All is forgiven - you are the font of all knowledge. You could make a huge difference in aviation safety - stay away from it

One hopes the PHD has a couple of facts in it or all your efforts will be to no avail, - - just like they have been on this thread really:rolleyes: :\

[2 sheds]

In my experience, the problem with most self-appointed Human Factors Experts (and we know the definition of "expert", do we not?), apart from their insufferable holier-than-thou attitude, is that they totally overlook the fact that the rest of us are members of the human race and understand the principles they are expounding perfectly well - when they are not wrapped up, that is, in a liberal coating of b*llsh*t.

What they are experts in most of the time, as with Sybil Fawlty, is the ability to state the bleeding obvious.

[CRR]

qcode, you mention you are writing your thesis on Human Factors in aviation.I would be very interested to know what have you based your discussion on,have you focused more on any one facet be it pilots, ATC, maintence, management or other?
You also mention you have studied all ATC manuals. May I ask what was the point of that?
Perhaps if and when your findings are published you could provide a copy.

[qcode]

pootled about in an aircraft

No, flying a G5 around europe into major international airports, but gladly not the one discussed in this thread.

Get stuffed

Thank you for your true professional comment. I do not hope that any of your attitude affects your new colleagues in Canada.

have you focused more on any one facet be it pilots, ATC, maintence, management or other?

The whole thesis includes all the factors you mention. On completition it will be available at all University libraries. The reason for studying ATC Manuals was to understand ATC regulations and any effect they may have on human performance.

[stillin1]

qcode,

One suspects that if you read the responses to your CV you may learn a basic fact that could become the only one that you get right in the PHD:

A publically exposed arse just rightly begs to be smacked!
:cool:

:}

[qcode]

A publically exposed arse just rightly begs to be smacked!

My point exactly!

[Scott Voigt]

QCode;

If you want to learn a few things about ATC human factors, there is a group at the FAA Tech center that does that sort of thing and they study the heck out of it <G>... I happen to be one of thier studies this week <G>...

But probably one of the most knowledgeable folks is Dr. Kim Cardosi. This lady probably has more experience with controllers than most people on the face of the earth. You would do very good in looking into all that she has published and maybe having a talk with her... She is one of the few Dr's that I have seen that "gets it." from an operational perspective. She looks at it from the eye of reality and not that of purely acadamia...

reagards

Scott

[qcode]

Scott,

Thanks for that information and I will certainly research what she has done. It is nice to see someone trying to support the industry.

Rgds,

Q

[nginear]

Widger,

So what is it? Turn down your aplication for a job or something?

Sorry this person is not qualified to employ me, nor would I work for such an unprofessional person.

[CRR]

qcode,thank you for answering my initial questions. Of course, with out going into major specifics, could you perhaps expand a little on what you have found regarding procedures and their effect on human performance.
I'll try not to be as blunt as some of the others here, but I personally think the reason you have put a few noses out of joint is that you did admit you have no evidence to support any of the claims, yet you do give the impression of believing there is some "conspiracy" or whatever majorly covering up aviation incidents.
You do seem to be talking cross purposes when you say things like "I have no evidence, and as if the thread suggests because of the non reporting of the incident , then there will not be any". Sorry, but that makes no sense what so ever. What sounds like word of mouth, I think you have heard something, maybe even form this board. Several operational ATCers have given you answers and input that you are ignoring for what ever your reason is. I guess that is why there is the warning at the bottom of the pages regarding agendas. Maybe I will have to be blunt, but do you have another agenda, because questioning the saftey of people in the job on this internet forum isn't going to achieve anything.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Sorry this person is not qualified to employ me, nor would I work for such an unprofessional person.

Do you have an opinion on the ATCO, who having found out the SATCO was not filing the report, appears not to have carried out his/her own legal duty to file a Mandatory Occurence Report with the CAA ?? The ultimate responsibility to ensure such a report is made does lie with them as previously explained.

Devils advocate mode[/off]

[Jerricho]

I do not hope that any of your attitude affects your new colleagues

Actually, I have changed my mind again (I can be so fickle at times, just ask Gonzo). Best of luck in you endeavours in achieveing the consultant position you seek.

I would also strongly suggest and encourage you to maintain your ability to make decisions without the slightest bit of factual evidence and purely base it on hearsay.........it will earn you the respect you deserve.

[qcode]

I do not just give my opinion on "hearsay". I am only making a comment on this thread. My future career and the aviation industry will depend on my comments regarding (alledged) incidents such as this. What some of the more blunter replies show to me that there is a certain protection of colleagues. It is not the protection of fellow workmates which is the problem, it is the necessisity to ensure safe aviation practice worldwide. Fortunate or unfortunate my expertise (or lack of, as some of you believe) will be in the Human Factors side. I have flown for 13 years now and studied Aviation for 10 years. I am enthusiastic about the industry and want to contribute more. Human Factors is the side I am mainly interested in. If you want to continue slagging me off then that is up to you, you can't beat professional equality and respect.
Rgds

[Jerricho]

I do not just give my opinion on "hearsay"

You've done a bloody good job here :rolleyes:

And "professional equality and respect" is something that has to be earned, and is so easily quashed when you anonymously accuse anyone of being anything other than professional.

[Gonzo]

Fickle? Well, something like that, Jer! :}

qcode, with all respect, for someone who has self proclaimed expertise in Human Factors (an area in which I am no more than a very interested amateur, I freely admit), you seem to be lacking some understanding of how your comments come across.

Just think for a moment, if I commented on a thread in a G5 pilots' forum, flinging accusations around that G5 pilots are unsafe; that they fail to log air safety reports; that their bosses, who might be on the airprox board, fail to file reports; that there's a big cover up and all round lack of professionalism, what would be the reaction from you and your colleagues? Perhaps then I might back up my accusations with phrases such as: "I have no evidence" and "I'm not a pilot, but I've read all the G5 flight manuals...." What would be the response then?

An interesting HF question, isn't it?

[qcode]

Gonzo,

Good points and thank you, I accept your points with constructive criticism. Another good thing to arise out of this thread is different peoples attitudes towards safety issues.
Regarding the flying, I can assure you that all our reports are filed on our particular a/c and any continuing crews are advised. We only have one boss and he is even more concerned with safety than I, as he is mostly one of the few passengers.

Jerricho,

Again I say to you I am only commenting on this thread. It is only from what I percieve and what I believe to be correct.

[GrumpyOldFart]

My future career and the aviation industry will depend on my comments regarding (alledged [sic]) incidents such as this.
Today - the aviation industry will depend on his comments. Tomorrow - the world?

Sheesh. A legend in his own mind.

[qcode]

If you do not have a goal in life then you will never go anywhere. My goal is as stated earlier and I will attain it.

[CRR]

Please qcode, if you have a second would you mind answering my questions.

[Gonzo]

Qcode,

I'm not sure how many ATCOs you've had the chance to talk to, but the first thing we're all taught on day one, and roughly about every hour on the hour after that is 'safety first'. There is a very obvious safety culture amongst UK ATCOs (I mention UK ATCOs as I only have experience of the training and operational culture in this country) at 'the coal face'. It has to be said that this is sometimes 'despite' rather than 'because of' our management/non-operational/Airport authority support.

No one segment of aviation/industry/life is perfect, and we do have our fair share of those who might not have the same enthusiasm, or order of priorities for safety as do most of us. I myself have sent reports direct to the CAA SRG and CHIRP as well as to my management, rather than just to my superiors.

[qcode]

CRR,

I'm sorry not to have answered your questions. As you are aware a thesis is a very complicated and researched process. Your questions cannot be answered on an individual basis. There are many procedures that effect performance for both pilots and controllers, not forgetting mangement and ground staff. I cannot expand any further. Please send me a PM if you want to discuss.
Let me point out to you all a recent incident which I have benn looking at.
AIRTRANSAT fuel leak, was nearly ditched into the pond. Thank God it never happenned. What was the cause? Failure to fit the wrong part in the engine, what follwed from this? Bad crew management. Luckily they were diverted 60 miles south of the original track which meant that they could, or were enable to, glide enough to reach the Azores and land.
This "incident" was a near catastrophe. It all boils down to human factors, which started at the beginning.

[Widger]

Failure to fit the wrong part in the engine,


Does that mean they fitted the correct part? I hope your thesis is a bit more accurate than that. Joking aside, Qcode your posts come across as very "holier than though" and give the impression that no-one else on this forum is entitled to a professional opinion. What is this role you will be taking on? Secretary of State? If so then you can expect a whole lot of extra abuse.

The whole story to this forum was Nginear, yet again slurring the good name of someone that I have personally known for over 10 years. I had worked with him in the past and continue to do so. As a friend I felt the need to defend this person.
I totally refute the scurrilous accusations made against him. If there is an issue about personalities, then the people concerned should take the matter up with him direct. He was publically identified by Nginear in a previous forum and there were some other posts, kindly deleted by the Moderator, that directly attacked the individual concerned. I was with him when he received the news of the latter attack on his character and he was understandably hurt and mortified that someone thought of him in this way. By the way..inmate of HMP West Drayton,....we know who you are!

All the previous comments about the controllers concerned filing reports are equally valid. I do not accept that there is a conspiracy to cover up incidents. I feel that there is a very healthy safety culture in the UK, despite commercial pressures that have built up over many years. Many agencies promote this safety culture, from DASC in the military, to GATCO, BALPA, the Unions and even companies like NATS itself.

have a pleasant week!




:ok: :ok:

[stillin1]

qcode

There you go -

Widger, a chap / lass (sorry Widger, didn't want to guess) who DOES have a fact or two has bestowed them upon you.

Read, Digest and do us all a favour by stopping your attempts to justify an attack upon a profession, and specifically an individual, which you have no basis in FACT to support.

How, as a self professed "expert", can you justify spouting cr#p and expect not to be challenged? The Aviation profession deals in fact, not supposition!! - its a safety thing! Page one of the book - not the book that starts "Once upon a time.....":mad:

[qcode]

"holier than though"

What?

Don't you mean "holier than thou"?

[nginear]

If certain professionals want to go around and make themselves appear as idiots then it is not my problem. If they do not wish to conform to the rules then that is up to them. Fortunately, my initial post is true. I know the names of the controllers involved and even the names of some of the passengers on the second aircraft. My initial question was regarding aviation safety and whether this practice happens elsewhere, and if it does it should be stopped. Do you think that the police pick on criminals and publicly humiliate them by sending them to court for breaking the law?

[qcode]

The Aviation profession deals in fact, not supposition!! - its a safety thing!

"not supposition", what a load of bol*o*ks. Of course supposition comes into the equation.

Don't talk sh1te!!

[ILS 119.5]

Rumour on the street indicates that confidential reports are waiting to be written if there are any more occurences. People are watching and listening.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Once again nginear avoids the answer about what those actually involved in the 'incident' did.

I heard of an incident where two jets on final approach got so close that the 2nd one had to be broken off by the watch manager who was working the approach radar position but transmitted on the tower frequency to give the instructions. The incident was reported to the Air Traffic Manager who then failed to report to the CAA or pursue any further action. The watch manager then reported to the air traffic manager that the initial reporter of the incident had attended work under the influence of alchohol. The reporting person was then suspended and subsequently resigned. So to me it is be carefull who reports what.

Your story doesn't make sense. First of all we have the Watch Manager taking control and sorting out the incident. In which case, why didn't he/she file a report direct with the CAA as per the law ?? Then we have the incident being reported to the ATS Manager. Was this by the Tower Controller ?? Someone else ?? Did they file direct with the CAA as per the law ??

No good these people blaming non reporting on the ATS Manager when the legality is that the responsibility for doing so ultimately lies with them. Did you 'hear' why they didn't report things to the CAA then ??

Or is it simply some attempt to sling mud at the ATS Manager ?? Time to put up or shut up on this issue.

[stillin1]

ILS 119.5, nginear, qcode

If the 3 of you get together you should be able to write the next blockbuster fiction novel, buy an aiport and then be able to afford to fly safely world-wide whilst making babies.
It is a luvverly thought. Poor old gene pool gets diminished a tad though!!!!!

Go on - just for a laugh - come up with a FACT,
ANY FACT that supports any of this boll#x :yuk:

Feel free to be as abusive to me as you wish - just start off with 1 FACT. Not "I heard", "rumour has it", "my mate said". Go on, 1, just 1 fact, please...............

Or better still pass the fact to the people who should be dealing with the matter :mad:

Sits back and waits, tis only a matter of time............... :E

[nginear]

Stillin1

If you want facts then please read the original post. I would never post anything which is untrue. You seem to have something against certain members of this forum and take any posts personally.
Why don't you tell us all what your so called qualifications are rather than being anonymous. Are you a you sptty faced kid with nothing better to do or (which is more likely) do you actually work at the unit and involved in the cover up.
Please tell us.

[Jerricho]

Ok, cut the bull**** nginear.

Tell us the unit involved, if you have the balls to.

Not the names of those whom you think were involved.......just the unit.

The challenge is down AGAIN. Stop trying to dodge the question.

Put up or shut up. :mad:

[stillin1]

Broke rule 1 - NO FACTS
Nothing personal

This is too easy:cool:

Oh! - Answer to your Qs - my choice. No. No

Next!:mad:

[nginear]

Happened at LBA with one of ours. Obviousely logged in the a/c log book. The incident was reported to the Air Traffic Manager by another controller who was not there at the time and therefore could not report himself not knowing the true facts. However it did happen and not reported by the ATCO concerned.

The intercom between tower and approach was something along the lines of:
Approach: My mum and Dad were on that one.
Tower: Yeah, and you nearly fu***ng killed them.

You asked me, so I have told you.

Myself and my colleagues discussed this post before it was originally aired. We all felt strongly, in the interests of aviation safety, that it should be posted.

Rgds.

[Jerricho]

Playing the game here:

Why didn't the operator report it?

Still smells of bullsh*t and rumour.

not there at the time and therefore could not report himself not knowing the true facts

There's those word again. And tell me, just what is being achieved, in the interests of saftey, by posting it here??

LBA controllers out there?

[ILS 119.5]

I've flown into LBA many times and maybe the pilot had the first one visual and did not realise how close due to it being night and all the other lights around. Maybe the tcas was not working at such close proximity to the ground. Maybe they were IMC. Regardless of what anyone says if true cannot be allowed to happen again. I'll ask around some of my mates who the skipper was involved and what exactly happenned.

[qcode]

From my point of view the point of posting here indicates that there is a "human factors" element. Either there is a problem with the reporting scheme, there is a problem with the unit management or there is a problem with the people involved. In any case human factors are involved and need to be examined to stop any future problems. This is why reports have to be submitted and examined to stop future incidents and to improve any flaws in the system.

[Jerricho]

OR

There is the human element of "the boy who cried wolf" :rolleyes:

Still waiting for actual facts, which are glaringly inadequate. You guys could write for the Sun.

[Gary Lager]

Hi, names's Gary; long time listener, first time caller:

Obviousely logged in the a/c log book

What a/c have log books which require entry of ATC incidents? If the aircraft had actually hit each other, then there'd be something to put in the (technical?) log!

The incident was reported to the Air Traffic Manager by another controller who was not there at the time

Huh?

From my point of view the point of posting here indicates that there is a "human factors" element

I would suggest (include it in your thesis if you like) that until aviation is run by robots, who are programmed by robots, then every single thing that ever happens in aviation has a 'human factors element'. You seem quick to forget that every day, every thing that goes right has a 'human factors element' as well. But wannabe human factors 'experts' don't very often point out when things go right, do they? I'll save my respect for the real HF boys in the AAIB, who have operational experience as well as a few books under their belt.

Either there is a problem with the reporting scheme, there is a problem with the unit management or there is a problem with the people involved

Or: there isn't a problem at all (as people have attempted to suggest) and therefore your ominscent input is not required. What a shame that would be!

For anyone with lots of free time to devote to 'non-reporting of incidents', and how they affect public safety, why don't you take a good look at the medical profession in the UK - lots of subject matter there for your thesis! You might even make a difference - but then, doctors and nurses aren't as exciting as aeroplanes, are they? ;)

[rodan]

nurses aren't as exciting as aeroplanes, are they?
I would have to respectfully disagree with you there :D

[av8boy]

Wow! Energy, insight, compound sentences, even punctuation! Gary, you sound like Jerricho did before he got all bitter and stuff… :ok:

Just kidding buddy… I know it’s the weight of the world what done this to you…

[qcode]

But wannabe human factors 'experts' don't very often point out when things go right, do they?

Correct, they do not, but it is all in the equation. The whole idea is to make all the rights outweigh the wrongs and to ensure any of the wrongs (as we are all Human) are supressed to ensure they do not happen again. I know it all sounds like a load of cr*p, but thats the way it is. At the end of the day it is to ensure Aviation Safety.

[Jerricho]

ensure any of the wrongs (as we are all Human) are supressed to ensure they do not happen again

Like making an assumption about something that you have no factual information on?:rolleyes:

[Tower Ranger]

I`m with Jerricho on this one, we`ve had very little in the way of factual information.

nginear, if all you`ve got to go on is hearsay and a bit of banter between Tower and Approach you and your colleagues should maybe have " discussed this post " for a little longer " before it was originally aired ".
Excuse my cynicism but it is obvious from previous postings that you have a problem with the Satco at your unit as this is the second time you`ve tried to drop him in it

[BDiONU]

Having bitten my tongue long enough I have a question for nginear . Do you understand the difference between fact and hearsay?

Definition
hearsay [Show phonetics]
noun [U]
information you have heard, although you do not know whether it is true or not:

Obviousely logged in the a/c log book. The incident was reported to the Air Traffic Manager by another controller who was not there at the time and therefore could not report himself not knowing the true facts. However it did happen and not reported by the ATCO concerned.

No facts there just:

Myself and my colleagues discussed this post

And for qcode I assume that you're aware that ATC has its own HF organisation, there are at least 10 HF experts which work for my company, 2 of whom I have worked closely with. They deal in facts not supposition and rumour. I can never recall either of them saying that they'd heard from their mate Bill down the pub that his mate Chalkie had heard about this problem with the ATC screens and you need to get it fixed. :bored: :bored: :bored:

BD

[Jerricho]

Folks, as we have come to page six of this one, our elustrious Human Factors "expert" and his sh*t stirring mate aren't interested in facts........they have achieved their goal of casting dispersions on LBA staff. And I think it's just going to keep going round and round, with our little friends ignoring anything that fall outside of their agenda (guess that's whay there's a warning at the bottom of the page here)

I've read back through and every time they are challeneged to provide facts, we receive a piss weak "I have heard" or "I have no evidence, but........." (I still love that on). Yet we keep seeing the "I'm the champion of saftey and justice" nappy being waved.

I honestly hope our little HF friend here changes his "investigation style" if he truely wants to get anywhere in the industry. As BDiONU very rightly states

there are at least 10 HF experts which work for my company, 2 of whom I have worked closely with. They deal in facts not supposition and rumour

I'm betting $10 now that if there is a reply, I know what it's going to be :E

[stillin1]

Jerricho
£20, and
I know who!:E

[Jerricho]

If it's that much of a concern, have you CHIRPed it?

[stillin1]

Ah!

Peace and quiet since the 16th, Heaven! still no facts, just Heaven mmmmmmmmmm!

The sweet sound of silence:E

and then...................................................:ok:

[ILS 119.5]

You guys/gals would not last in the sea. "hook line and sinker" would be the phrase. Stillin1 go and do your job as the LBA ATM, let your little Widger follow you around. What goes around comes around.

[Jerricho]

You guys/gals would not last in the sea. "hook line and sinker" would be the phrase

Ok, what you on about this time?

[stillin1]

Dear ILS 119.5,

Bugger, it was just too good to be true, you came back!

I almost hate to do this since you attempted to come up with a fact. But:

a. You assumed Widger is little! He may be a huge bald bird with only one leg and bad breath :E (I assume)

b. I am not the LBA ATM! (I state a FACT)

c. In fact I have never been a Automated Cash-dispensing Machine at LBA.:p

d. Jerricho, you owe me £20:sad:

e. "You guys/gals would not last in the sea. "hook line and sinker" would be the phrase" - As the nice Polish man said during the Battle o Britain movie: Err, repeate pleeese". What are you on about? Don't drink&type, it is always a mistake.

f. "What goes around comes around" - have you got a roundabout fetish?

g. 2 / 10 Could try harder:8

[nginear]

stillin 1

a) widger is one of your cronies, who will do anything to keep up your bum.
B) you are the LBA ATM, and widger is one of your traffic wardens.
c)the rest I cannot answer.
f) you will find that what you have done in the past will bite you back hard in the future.

[Jerricho]

So, we go from no supporting evidence to plain insults :rolleyes:

I think this is well and truely done.

[PPRuNe Radar]

I concur.

ngingear

Don't let the door slam on your ass on the way out ......