BBMF today

[tmmorris]

Fabulous to see the BBMF in formation go underneath me northbound between Cranfield and Wyton at 4.15 this afternoon. As I'm cr@p at recognition, anyone able to tell me what the three aircraft were (1 bomber + 2 fighters)?

Tim

[Guern]

I would imagine

Lancaster
Spitfire
Hurricane

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I'd guess:

Spitfire (photo recon, Griffon-engined).
Hurricane
Dakota

Why? Because yesterday in another place I posted this:

Out and about in the Red Chippy today - what a fantastic flying day. If I hadn't had stuff to do this morning, I'd have gone down to Duxford to see the studes.

However, soon after I joined for Scousport at Oulton Park VRP, the Spitfire, Hurricane, and Dakota of the BBMF called for join. I kept the speed up (all of 100 knts!) and managed to land just before they did. I stopped on the taxiway to watch them land, and pirouetted around to follow their crackiling, popping (OK, not the DAK) roll out . The Spit was even popping and missing on the taxi back towards the apron.

The Dak went to the main apron, but the two fighters came to the GA apron right next to where I was parked so we got 'up close and persomal' with these wonderful machines. The Spit was a Griffon-engined PR machine, and it looked like one needed to be an acrobat to get into it - being pressurised (originally - not now) the drop-down cockpit door is omitted and it looks like a big stride/climb from the wing to get in (I looked in from atop the wing). The Hurricane has steps and handholds. Both are big aeroplanes close up.

They'd been displaying at Llandudno, and will be again tomorrow, hence the overnight at Scouseport.

Super end to a lovely day.

So what you saw today may well have been these guys going home.

SSD

[tmmorris]

When I saw them they were at low level; and five minutes later they called Cranfield App to say they had just finished a flypast and were returning to base. So I'd say they had an appointment today, too...

Tim

[MLS-12D]

Hi Tim,

If you look here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/aircraft.html), you will find photos of all of the aircraft in the BBMF; perhaps you may be able to recognize those that you saw earlier today. Hint: a Dakota has two engines, a Lancaster has four ... and the Lanc's empennage is fairly distinct, too. ;)

Few of us are familiar with obscure aircraft types or marks, but it is a rather sad world when a pilot cannot recognize such classics as a Hurricane, Spit, Lanc or Dakota! :sad: Still, I'll cut you some slack, as it sounds like you only caught a fleeting glimpse.

P.S. I wonder why the BBMF only has Chippies for trainers. Of course that is an excellent (Canadian!) design, but I would have thought that a Harvard would provide a better lead-in for the Spitfire.

[Red Four]

I think you'll find on this occasion they were two spits accompanying the Lancaster.:ok:

[AlexL]

I was priveleged enough to watch them take off from Southend this afternoon, a lancaster and 2 spits - one with the eliptical wings, one with the 'cropped' wingtips. A glorious site and sound indeed.

edit - just looked at my pics on my camera and the two spits where 'AB910' the Mk 5b and 'MK356' the M9 with cropped wingtips.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

P.S. I wonder why the BBMF only has Chippies for trainers. Of course that is an excellent (Canadian!) design, but I would have thought that a Harvard would provide a better lead-in for the Spitfire.

The Chippy was indeed a dH Canada design (the DHC1, in fact). But it was designed by a Pole - Jackimuik? (sp)? And the poles know how to design well-handling aeroplanes.

As to the point MLS-12D raises, I'd suppose that guys who go to BBMF are serving RAF pilots, so they are well used to heavy and fast aeroplanes. What they don't know about is piston engine and - most of all - tailwheel. The Chippy teaches those very well, with no need for the expensive-to-operate Harvard as a stepping stone.

I'm told by those who've flown both that the Spitfire handles very much like a big, and enormously powerful, Chipmunk. But then I might be biased ;)

SSD

[tmmorris]

AlexL - yes, I guess that's where they'd come from.

MLS-12D - thanks for the slack... I did only see them for a couple of seconds, as they went under me - I never saw them come out the other side (guess that's what the camo paint is for!) despite looking quite hard. But yes, looking at the Lanc empennage that's definitely what I saw - didn't manage to count the engines...

Tim

[Cessna 210 Heavy]

They were displaying at Southing and night stopped on Sunday night.

There was PA474, Lancaster and 2 Spitfires. This was due to the Hurricane being U/S.

[southender]

They were as immaculate as ever at Southend on Monday.

However, the airshow commentator was raising doubts as to whether they would be able to keep these aircraft flying for much longer.

I think the main reference was to the Lancaster, as I know there are still several Spitfires available at the BBMF.

Shame about the Hurricane missing this year - better luck with it next time.

Cheers

Southender

[MLS-12D]

As to the point MLS-12D raises, I'd suppose that guys who go to BBMF are serving RAF pilots, so they are well used to heavy and fast aeroplanes. What they don't know about is piston engine and - most of all - tailwheel. The Chippy teaches those very well, with no need for the expensive-to-operate Harvard as a stepping stone.Well, maybe. The BBMF seems to agree with you, doesn't it?

But ’twas not always thus. The following passages appear in an chapter entitled "Battle of Britain Memorial Flight", by Squadron Leader K.R. Jackson, AFC (in E.L. Cornwell, ed., Still Flying (1979)):

Due to the fact that very few dual-controlled Spitfires were ever built, most Spitfire pilots have, over the years from 1936 onwards, made their first-ever flight on type solo. The same applies to this day but, to be fair, it is safe to say that a far more thorough grounding is given before a first Spitfire solo flight on the BBMF than was ever possible in the past.

To start with, a selected pilot will be given up to 25 hours on the Chipmunk aircraft. This will not only re-educate him on piston-engined aircraft techniques, but will also give him invaluable experience in the control of ‘swing’ in cross-winds, which is a feature of all tail-wheel aircraft as opposed to the modern nose-wheel types where swing tends to be self-correcting.

Towards the end of the 25 hours most of the flying will be carried out from the back seat of the Chipmunk, which increases the amount of nose in front of the pilot and reduces the amount of forward vision. In fact, flying the Chipmunk from the rear seat is very similar to flying the small (Merlin-powered) Spitfires as far as what can be seen during landing and take-off is concerned.

Having successfully completed the Chipmunk phase to the satisfaction of the BBMF Training Officer, who is usually the senior Spitfire pilot of the Flight, the budding Spitfire pilot will be detached to the A&AEE at Boscombe Down for a short course on one of the three remaining Harvard aircraft still in RAF colours. The Harvard has always been well known, perhaps even notorious, for its hefty swing during landings, even in very moderate cross-winds. It has often been said that if you can master the Harvard you have very little to fear from other single-engined aircraft.

Be that as it may, the very first flight in a historic aircraft on return to Coningsby will be in one of the two Hurricanes and not a Spitfire. The Hurricane sits higher off the ground than a Spitfire and, of even more importance, the main undercarriage wheels are set further apart, making the Hurricane far less likely to swing, and easier to correct if it should.

After two or three hours on the Hurricane the big day arrives for the first solo on the Spitfire, the most famous British fighter of all time, although it is worth noting that the Hurricane shot down more enemy aircraft than any other type during the Battle of Britain. The first solo will be flown on one of the Merlin-powered Spitfires as the engine develops far less power than the Griffon and there is therefore less potential swing, especially during take-offs.

The reader will no doubt have gathered by now that the biggest problem in operating single-engined tailwheeled aircraft is swing on take-off and landing. In nil wind conditions the swing will be predictable; always in the opposite direction to the rotation of the propeller. However, in any cross-wind the swing will be either accentuated, reduced, cancelled out completely or in the opposite direction to that normally induced, depending on the direction and strength of the cross-wind. To safeguard against ground-loops on landing, a strict limit of 10 knots maximum cross-wind component is imposed for all Spitfires and 15 knots for the Lancaster.I suspect that the Harvard phase was eliminated not because it was considered unnecessary, but because suitable aircraft were no longer available at Boscombe Down. But I don’t really know.

[proplover]

MLS-12D,
Think you'll find that the Harvard phase is still included (including flying it from the rear) although not necessarily at Boscombe. It is correct that the Harvard is a lot heavier in the take off and roll out, any swing generated carries much greater momentum than the Chippy. The other reason for the Harvard is to get the jet jockies re/introduced to variable pitch props.

The Spitfire is an extreamely overpowered Chippy and that the handling and lightness of contols are very similar, hence the Chipfire or Spitmunk names! As Charlie Brown once told me " if you cant fly the Chipmunk accurately and precisely then dont even think about a Spitfire"

Hats off to DH and the design team for a very superb aircraft.

[MLS-12D]

Great; thanks proploverfor the information. :ok:

The Chippy was indeed a dH Canada design (the DHC1, in fact). But it was designed by a Pole SSD: Canada is a nation of immigrants, and most Canadian aircraft have been designed by Canadians originally born elsewhere. Besides Jaki Jakimiuk, a couple of other obvious examples are Jim Floyd (http://collections.ic.gc.ca/heirloom_series/volume5/18-23.htm) (designer of the classic Avro Jetliner and the mythical Avro Arrow) and Bob Noorduyn (designer of the fabulous Norseman (http://www.aviationtrader.com/features/av_retrospect/dec04.html)). A more contemporary foreign-born Canadian is Chris Heintz (http://www.zenithair.com/c-heintz.html) (designer of the CH-601, CH-801, etc.).

It would be inaccurate and petty to deny the Canadian citizenship of these men, or the indigenous nature of their airplanes. I trust that was not your intent.

[BRL]

How can one get a ride in the Lanc? Would that be allowed to have a member of the public go up in it? Also that B17, how can you get a ride in that during a display, anyone know if these things are possible at all?

[Cessna 210 Heavy]

Sally B is now grounded, due to insurance costs.

As for getting a ride in PA474, no chance at all I am afraid. I had a nice trip in her when I was in the RAF but even that cost a fortune in beer tokens. As a civvy you have no hope at all.

Sorry.

[MLS-12D]

It is not especially difficult to obtain a ride in FM213 (the "Mynarski Memorial Lancaster"). It is not inexpensive, though: Ian Allan's 2005 Trans-Canada tour brochure (see generally here (http://www.ianallan.com/travel/aviation/index.htm)) says "a 30-minute flight costs C$1500 (approximately £635) per person, based on 3 persons per flight".

Anyone who is interested in flying in a Lanc, a Fort or a Lib should check out Bomberflight.com (http://www.bomberflight.com/index.htm), which (I think) is not a booking agency (with associated inflated costs), but rather a collection of links and photos.

P.S. For a list of "surviving Lancasters" (the two airworthy ones, plus a bunch on static display), see here (http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/lancs.html#FM213).

[BeauMan]

Apologies for the sidetrack...

SSD - you mention an all red Chippy. It (you?) wouldn't have happened to be flying overhead Little Paxton and St Neots a few days ago would you? Looked very nice from ground level. If it is that one, is she a) local, and b) a club aeroplane?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

SSD - you mention an all red Chippy. It (you?) wouldn't have happened to be flying overhead Little Paxton and St Neots a few days ago would you? Looked very nice from ground level. If it is that one, is she a) local, and b) a club aeroplane?

Not me, but she's a group aeroplane with over 20 members, so it could have been one of quite a few. She's based at Liverpool (was Barton based form 1979 'till last year, and used to be blue many years ago!).

I'm not aware of any other red chippies in UK (ours is G-BCSL), and she is a lovely aeroplane. ;)

SSD