737 rated dct entry Ryanair [Archive]

coolfalcon

27th May 2005, 09:59

Dear PPRUNERS.

Ryanair has advertised in the latest Flight International issue a rquest for direct entry type rated 737 FO's for quick command upgrade within 6 months.
Has anyone undergone that training?
if so how was it?
did they have to pay anything since he was already type rated? What about the pay is it really what it is sais in the ad?
About the Bases: was it possible to negotiate for a specific one during the interview?
All infos would really be appreciated on the matters said above or any other inside info ....

thanks a lot

Mister Geezer

27th May 2005, 10:52

No money is paid up front. No paying for your application to be looked at and you go straight into the right hand seat on full salary and sector pay. Seems as if you can choose which base you want as well. Going to be very short of Captains due to their rapid expansion.

Lolo737

27th May 2005, 16:19

Check out the career section of the Ryanair website.

Every Friday between 11am and 3pm Alan Sweeney, Head of Pilot Recruitment, will be available at London Stansted Airport to meet with Pilots of all experience levels. Alan will be available in Room 705 which is beside ‘Cotton traders’ shop, opposite check in area A.

Do I sniff an air of desperation?

Liftdumper

31st May 2005, 08:36

Really unbelievable,

normally it's "don't call, don't walk in" and now mr head of something is awaiting you every friday to answer questions!

Bokkenrijder

1st Jun 2005, 16:52

Will they pay me 50 quid if I go to the interview? :mad:

10002level

1st Jun 2005, 17:56

Mister Geezer,

I applied to Ryan last summer. I have a type rating on the 737 NG with over 3000 hours on type. I paid £50 to the company. I am a UK citizen.

I am still awaiting a reply.

From the ryanair website today:

"How to apply if you are a B737-RATED pilot?

1. Apply Online
A Stg£50 fee is required, refundable to successful applicants

2. Interview / Assessment
The most suitable applicants will be interviewed by Ryanair. Following a successful interview, you will be required to undergo and pass a simulator assessment for which a non-refundable fee of Stg£200 will be charged.

3. Ryanair Pilot
Successful and suitable candidates will be offered a contract to fly for Ryanair"

Given their total lack of interest from my previous application, why should I show any interest in paying then £50 only to be ignored again? Also, if they really want to attract experienced pilots, is charging £200 for a sim assessment the right way to go about it? I do not know your position within the company, but perhaps you could take this post to Alan Sweeney and ask for his comments.

(edited for spelling)

Craggenmore

3rd Jun 2005, 12:31

he's there every Friday except this Friday! :rolleyes:

RAT 5

4th Jun 2005, 17:39

just to lighten things up:

Is that the notice over his 'office', which sounds something like that in the pub saying "free beer tomorrow."

Slim20

4th Jun 2005, 20:26

This is a total crock of the proverbial. When they thought they could pick and choose their pilots it was "don't call us we'll call you - and it'll cost you £50". Now they are desperate again, losing guys hand over fist to Big Red Airlines and Big Blue Airways, and suddenly its "we'll take anyone with a rating, and promote you to boot oh and here's your £50 back."

Anyone else think this would be a totally sh!te career choice? In a couple of years it'll be compulsory demotions with your seat being filled by some Yuri who will do it for peanuts.

atse

5th Jun 2005, 07:47

Slim20 Of course you are correct in what you say. But you have to face the reality that there are still lots of people out there who do not believe what you say and think it will be "different for them". I even spoke to a potential applicant within the last 24 hours. He told me (a) he knows what they are like, and (b) he is going to "have a chat with them".

That of course means he wants them to tell him things he can believe so that he can justify joining up. All based on the notion that it will be different for him. And there is nothing you can do to help these people, except keep up the warnings. Then, at least, you put them in a position where they can't claim afterwards they "did not know" when they get moved overnight to the far ends of the Ryanair empire with reduced T&Cs.

Hårek den Hardbalne

5th Jun 2005, 08:11

10002level,

I cannot agree more. If an airline is in need of qualified staff, why should people pay to be assessed. It is ok that some operators have made low cost operation to a science. But paying to deliever your CV and to do a sim check? My advice to my fellow 737 colleagues is to straighten your backbone, put your foot down and say NO THANK YOU.

Slim20,

In a couple of years it'll be compulsory demotions with your seat being filled by some Yuri who will do it for peanuts.
Probably true. It makes me sad to see colleagues from certain parts of the world accept jobs and contracts with a package below what I like to see as market standard. This is about sticking together for a better future for all of us. But I know how difficult it is to achieve that. Different culture and background dictate our behaviour. When it comes to pilot contracts it is unfortunate.

Sheikh Your Bootie

5th Jun 2005, 09:04

Hell will freeze over before i ever apply to a company that charges you applying for a job or sim assessment. Tossers.... http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sauer/angry-smiley-002.gif

Market forces will change things i hope/believe. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sauer/angry-smiley-014.gif

SyB :zzz:

Soft Altitude

6th Jun 2005, 05:44

Gentlmen please, do not be fooled, Yuris are not flying for peanuts anymore since they tasted the caviar, low houred EU guys are now taking their place big time :*

springboksoffice

6th Jun 2005, 07:49

Dont be fooled in thinking that if you have 3K hours you will be a captain in short time. You do not know the SOPs, the winter ops etc for the company. 13 out of 15 failed the last command assessment many were long term fos.

bentover

6th Jun 2005, 13:41

You made up that statistic. It's not true.

Grease Weasel

6th Jun 2005, 13:54

OK then.

To current Ryanair Pilots:

If we cannot believe the advertised numbers from Ryanair in terms of salary etc what is realistic? What are you taking home per month and what do you reckon to gross per year and how does that compare to positions abroad ie. Ciampino?
How many people are being kicked out of their prefered base having already been established there?

Clearly there are pleanty of peeved people out there, and I'm sure many for good reason, however nothing is perfect and there are many things about Ryanair that are attractive - not all their pilots are pissed off.

Any info on pensions, staff travel, recurrent training, small print much appreciated.........

Thanks all.......................................:ok:

ecj

6th Jun 2005, 17:18

You just wonder how many more pilots would apply if they behaved like other airlines and made no charge.

The time will come where supply and demand is likely to force them to think again, and that includes proper old fashioned bonding deal for their training.

No doubt some face saving formula will be adopted.

:sad:

GGV

9th Jun 2005, 19:28

The really interesting thing will be what will happen come September when the deal to delay the arrival of the new aircraft comes to an end. Given the dramatic tightening of the pilot market and the general unpopularity of Ryanair ... ahem ... "personnel management methods" things might change a lot.

The payment for the type rating might even go and good old-fashioned "basic pay" might mean what it means in most airlines. We might finally see the "half sector pay for as long we think we can get away with it" game coming to an end.

What then? Well of course there will be resentment towards new pilots on the part of those who paid big money for their ratings .... followed by the retorts of those who will say "silly you for paying" ... a little bit of "deja vu" here again for the older hands!? Is aviation not just the most peculiar game in town!!

BBT

10th Jun 2005, 06:11

“At Ryanair there are no seniority lists” and " No complicated salary scales " I had a look at the Ryanair ad here on prune and the above two quotes come from what it says on the link they provide.

So very Ryanair ... an immediate appeal to your selfishness, with the implication that seniority is of no significance to your advancement (but what of your future security ... of base, of promotion, of whatever...). Nothing complicated about payscales that they will never publish because they don't exist in the conventional sense. I think most pilots would be happy to read "complicated pay scales" in Ryanair if they could get their hands on anything other than propaganda. I can't speak about U.K. scales, but I have yet to meet a captain of any seniority in Ryanair that earns the €130,000 they keep talking about ad nauseum (sp?) in this ad and elsewhere.

The usual "Ryanair Health Warning" will apply until you get a published salary scale and some guidance as to how your future will be protected. This does not mean "don't join" but it does mean "understand what you are joining".

atse

10th Jun 2005, 07:20

BBT, I don't know where you are based, but even getting your leave entitlement when and when you want it makes the abuse of seniority clear. If seniority is "bad" a "popularity contest" for entitlements is even worse. I in no way mean to be insulting, but to have a clerk - possibly one that has received a friendly bottle of wine - as the final arbiter of how and when I receive my entitlements is just wrong. In the absence of rules and answerability all you get is exploitation. And no, eager Ryanair joiners, it does not always work if you go to your pilot manager and explain - because while he may sort it out for you, it will be because he is able and willing to get involved in the politics, not because there are rules that are properly and fairly applied to all. What muppetry one gets used to!! I really must stop reading this stuff, all I get is cross.

ifleeplanes

10th Jun 2005, 08:57

Here is a quote from WonderBoy in Terms and Endearment....its pretty accurate !! :(

I am a First Officer in Ryanair and here is exactly how I am being payed in the first 12 months:

Type rating (4-6 WEEKS):

No pay

You then wait 2-4 weeks for base training without pay. After base training you are on the training contract basic rate for 6 months. This is an annual rate of 8700 pounds. However, you do not start getting payed this until after line training. Line training takes 2-3 months so you are therefore only payed on this rate for 3-4 months. Sounds complicated? It is purposely so.Not only that, but the company reduces this initial rate by 1000 pounds every year or so without notice. Next year you might therefore expect the rate to be 7700 pounds.

So, from the start of type rating until conclusion of line training you will only have earned about 750 pounds (half sector pay after safety pilot release and no basic salary yet).

About 3.5 months now remain until you finish your training contract. On the annual rate of 8700 (remember this will reduce eventually) you will earn 2530 basic in this time. Also, you will earn 2800 sector pay.

To sum up so far:

Day 1 to completion of line check ( 4 months) = 750 pounds

Line check to end of training contract (3.5 months) = 5330 pounds

Total after 7.5 months with the company = 6080 pounds.

It will now have been 6 months since base check. You will now go on the basic second officer terms. This amounts to a basic annual rate of 14000 pounds and half sector pay for a further 6 months.

In these 6 months you will therefore earn 7000 pounds basic and about 4800 pounds sector pay. This basic rate is also being reduced annually without notice.

Ok, here are the final figures (before tax) for the first 12 months after the base check:

Basic pay: 9530 pounds

Sector pay: 8350 pounds

Total: 17880 Pounds.

You can expect to remain on second officer pay scale for 18 months after line check. This will probably increase to a greater time period as time goes by.

chockstarfish

10th Jun 2005, 15:49

Ok couple of things i have heard to keep the facts straight....the F/O in question that put up his T/C for the first year was a cadet with 250 hours, he was not hired as an fo, so what does he expect for his first job if you guys with 250 dont like the terms go be a flight instructor to get some experience...the above post was for F/O with experience!!!!

Second of all the guys that are said to be making 130 000 are through brookfield and work for ryan air that way.............(tre tri)

and as far as upgrades at ryan air, 3000 jar 25 experiece no senority list for upgrades because anyone with that experience will be offered a command course no matter what and if they do not make the grade they are considered senior f/os

you all need to get your facts straight....go down to stanstead on a friday instead of venting on here

jeez i dont even work for them but at least my posts come from fact instead of rumours

csf

ifleeplanes

10th Jun 2005, 20:03

jeez i dont even work for them but at least my posts come from fact instead of rumours

Well I do work for them and it was pretty factual to me! And the guy who wrote the post did too....who has their facts straight I wonder?

atse

10th Jun 2005, 20:12

chockstarfish

If this is what you call getting your facts right, you are in need of divine help. You have produced tittle-tattle with a particular twist as "fact". You have also told us a few things about your attitudes to junior co-pilots, seniority and what you consider to be proper treatment of people who join on one basis and end up being treated differently from the pre-employment promises (which is what makes it relevant to this thread).

Here's an example:the guys that are said to be making 130 000 ... You yourself use the words "are said to be". In fact, by way of example, it is all over the press in Dublin that this is what the captains there earn. But they don't. You purport to correct ifleeplanes but his post contains important and correct information that you wish to either ignore or disparage. Whatever that may be, it is not "keeping the facts straight".

Bengerman

11th Jun 2005, 13:29

If one puts together the sum total of posts on this forum abour Ryanair it appears clear that they are a complete bunch of Mill Owning Tossers! Why anyone would want to work for such a bunch of people amazes me.

Do Ryanair employees have to pay for the wire brush that gets stuffed up 'em?

chockstarfish

11th Jun 2005, 13:45

well then tell us how you started at ryan with how many hours, and your background and exactly what happened first year, what was promised and what was not given......

that would be of some interest......

csf

applies to any one that works for them that went in not as a CADET

vfenext

11th Jun 2005, 17:34

Amazed that some of you want to drag this thread out as long as possible as if in the hope that somewhere FR will suddenly become a great place to work. It's a GASH airline, not the real world of aviation and not worth crossing the road to work for. It can't be made clearer than that. The only thing not mentioned before about this shower of lying cheating so and so's is the strong back you need for their medical. You will spend so much time bent over taking it up the rear that you need one! Believe NOTHING they tell you and expect multiple changes to your terms. The training is wham bam get on the line quick stuff and the CRM is non existent. Even their head of training on the 200 in Dublin has failed his sim ride more than once! If you really want to go loco go to Easy.

RAT 5

11th Jun 2005, 19:36

vfenext:

Now there's an interesting quote.

" Even their head of training on the 200 in Dublin has failed his sim ride more than once!"

Given what has been alleged in the John Goss case about a certain captain, and is hear-say about many others in the history of RYR, this would be a case for dismissal. I wonder if this is quite true; and I wonder if the bold TRE, (more than one ) is still around? If so, what a tale he would have to tell!?

Whippersnapper

14th Jun 2005, 14:13

In answer to Grease weasle's question, as a London based captain I am clearing £5000-5300 per month. That means I can afford Bengerman's wire brush, though I haven't needed it yet.;) Additional benefits are scarce, but there are a few bits about. With that take home though, and the decent rosters, it's a fairly good package. It's the cadets on the training salaries who are suffering, but at least they're not unemployed or working as PPL instructors.

Rocket Ron

14th Jun 2005, 14:54

... thats only about £400 more than an easyJet skipper, plus we get crew food/hot drinks, some other bits - and more importantly we can actually book leave! (but not necessarily when we want it... :hmm: )

Mark Noble

14th Jun 2005, 15:01

Whippersnapper - how many days a month would you by flying to earn that money? If that's after tax it's pretty good but how long is it going to take to be a captain once you get into an airline?

ifleeplanes

14th Jun 2005, 15:20

We work 5 on 3 off ad-infinitum...and we WILL do 900 hours a year. That quote was after tax and it will take an ab initio new joiner (250hrs joiner) about 3-4 years to get a look at captaincy.

Mark Noble

14th Jun 2005, 15:25

Damn hard work!

I know people who work in what I do (radio) who are in management and scratch their you know whats in a Mon-Fri 9-5 and earn the same money.

Anyway don't mean to intrude just wanted to find out!

Thanks...

Whippersnapper

14th Jun 2005, 20:16

Re the pay, I'm on year 1, so am getting less than the older hands. As for crew food, getting it is one thing, eating it another!

I'm doing 90-100 hrs in 13 or14 days work. Typically do 4 days flying and 1 sby, or 3 fly and 2 sby. It is VERY rare that I getted called out. With the roster structure, I don't get very tired, and all 3 days of the weekend are productive. I'll run out of hours in Jan/Feb, so will have a month or two with little flying, but woth 0 flying the nett pay is just over £3000pm, so it's still enough not to feel the pinch.

And all the leave I have requested is booked on the dates I wanted.

Overall, I'm pretty happy.

Grease Weasel

15th Jun 2005, 11:57

Finally some answers from people in the know who don't have to take another opportunity to slag everything off - although the wire brush comment was brilliant!!!!! :D

From what I've heard......:

No pension?
5/3 often becomes 4/4
Staff travel is cheapish but stand-by
Pay your own medical, hotac for recurrent sim, food/drink, loss of license, travel in general? (eg to sim), uniform etc etc

If you join with the magic 3000 (decent) hrs how long to command - 6 months?????
And what I'd really like to know - pay abroad. Capt pay abroad = FO pay UK????? Anything you hear about tax free salaries in Europe imho steer well clear of.........

Ciao tutti........
:ok:

Norman Stanley Fletcher

15th Jun 2005, 11:59

To get a sense of perspective here, I am an easyJet captain and I earnt £4300 last month based on 84 hours flying. We get a 7% pension contribution (I put in 5%), loss of licence cover and no private health insurance. It seems to me that a Ryanair captain earns substantially more than an easyJet one. Despite that I would much prefer to work for easyJet (apart from anything else, the Airbus is just great to fly)!

vfenext

15th Jun 2005, 13:07

NSF Sounds like better times than flying in and out of Bens Khazi eh!!

Whippersnapper

16th Jun 2005, 17:54

There are as amny similarities as there are differences between EZY and RYR, and having worked for both, I am in a position to know (before anyone starts casting apertions).

The standards of crew and trg are similar, as is the type of flying. Rostering at RYR is far superior, but EZY have a better system for leave. Pay is better at RYR, though there are less benefits (RYR pilots still come out reasonably well ahead of their counterparts after paying all their own pensions and insurances though).

I, and my fellow defectors, have also found the working environment far less political and hypocritcal than our previous employer, though there is an unneccessary level of corporate agression. It really is swings and roundabouts, but most of us that have worked for both have a strong preference for yellow and blue.

I do take strong exception to Vfenext's "gash" remark. The stories he bases that remark on are mostly exageraed or fabricated, mostly (I suspect) by EZY mgmt. It's a dirty side to corporate tactics that all companies get involved with, but with PR being less of a priority in RYR than cost base, the mud sticks better and gets washed off less often than in the spin obsessed EZY.

We are all professionals, and I view it as a personal insult that I would work for a gash operator. I did have concerns on joining RYR, as there is often fire behind so much smoke, but I was suprised at just how unfounded the compan'y reputation is - it is actually very well controlled and has operational standards very similar to EZY, with a similarly healthy level of professionalism by the crews. Maybe if Vref had ever been to RYR, or spoken with anyone who works there, he wouldn't have posted such a daft remark.

EZY certainly can be a good place if it wants to, and many bases have a fair standard of morale, but it's patchy, with terrible conditions and morale in LTN. RYR seems generally more level, and is generally on par with the best of the EZY bases. It's good, even if it's not to everyones' taste.

captplaystation

16th Jun 2005, 21:10

Whippersnapper pretty much has it right,it isn't all bad ,it isn't all good, but in the current state of the industry what is worth doing these days?Hope my kids find another plan for looking after their Dad in his old age! Grease Weasel, you can expect 5500-6000 euro take home from a European base if married and paying Irish tax/social charges on a permanent Captain contract ;for this princely sum you will fly as close to 900hrs a year(a RYR year that is /1april-1april!)as humanly(not humanely)possible and average 4 days flying and one standby in your 5 day block at most bases;99%of the time 5 early 3 off 5 late 3 off and they seem to dick around with the roster less than any company I have experienced before, except in that magical time leading up to 1april,and when they are short i.e. now!Their man-management skills are pretty well documented on other threads/either join with a thick skin,or grow one fast if you choose to stay.

jedy

17th Jun 2005, 07:24

Blimey!!
5500 to 6000 euros (+ - 3900 pounds) for a captain in a European base. No food, no water, no uniform, no pension, no medicals, no loss of license no nothing; and all of that to fly 900 hours a year.
Man and I thougth that you guys were one of the best paid pilots in Europe.

Copied from Ryanair web page:

What’s on offer – 5 reasons to become a Ryanair Pilot.

1. Outstanding Earnings Potential
Ryanair Pilots are recognised as the best paid short haul pilots in Europe. Senior pilots in Ryanair have excellent remuneration packages as follows:
Captains UK Up to £100,000 / EU Up to €130,000
First Officers (1,500 hrs) UK Up to £70,000 / EU Up to €80,000

At Ryanair there are no seniority lists and there are no complicated salary scales, you can expect to reach these amounts in 3 – 5 years, with more if you take on a line training role.

I don´t understand because those numbers don´t add up and seems to me that you guys in EU are getting shafted. If that is true I think Ryanair pilots have one of the crappiest T&C in Europe.

OneWorld22

17th Jun 2005, 07:46

Well, well, well, actual FR pilots post the truth here and low and behold, it conflicts with the usual crew of FR bashers and their decrepit fantasies about the Evil Airline!!

Ryanair pilots like this are not welcome to post here! How dare they ruin the deranged illusions of so many!

vfenext

17th Jun 2005, 08:03

I do take strong exception to Vfenext's "gash" remark. The stories he bases that remark on are mostly exageraed or fabricated, mostly (I suspect) by EZY mgmt. It's a dirty side to corporate tactics that all companies get involved with, but with PR being less of a priority in RYR than cost base, the mud sticks better and gets washed off less often than in the spin obsessed EZY.
None so blind as those who will not see, FR is a gash airline and I speak from first hand experience. The things I witnessed during my time there scared me enough to report it to the IAA. The training is second rate and the quality of line managers is a lot less than required. The Air Corp all looking after each other and covering up left right and center. Their health and safety record speaks for itself, how many time have they been in trouble with the HSA? John Goss's story can be repeated many times but money talks and others are too afraid to speak up. It sounds like you are of limited experience if you think otherwise and have never worked for a real airline. Get some self respect, and a real job!!

vfenext

17th Jun 2005, 09:19

Quoting my previous posts out of context will not make FR a good airline.

Whippersnapper

17th Jun 2005, 17:32

My God, how pompous you are! I gave a measured and polite reply to your remark, and you make arrogant, aggressive, incorrect insults in reply.

I have worked for 4 Uk based 737 operators already. Not as many as some, but enough to have an idea of what is good and what is bad. Maybe you have been at RYR, and maybe your experiences were bad, but things are very different on the 800 fleet. Trg in EZY is well respected within the industry, and I can assure you that the stds of trg and crew competence on the RYR 800 fleet is every bit as good. You base you views on exagerations of conditions that have long since passed.

Jetdriver

17th Jun 2005, 17:51

Please try and stick to the topic folks. Personal insults and much hurling of personal abuse will result in censure and or topic closure.

This thread has already caused some complaints.

Whippersnapper

17th Jun 2005, 18:20

Thanks Jetdriver, I agree with your position, but I do not like to sit by while a biggot attacks the professionalism of every pilot within his airline's prime competitor.

captplaystation

17th Jun 2005, 20:21

I second that Whippersnapper,on the one hand I can offer no defence to some of management's tactics,on the other I refuse to allow someone to slag us(as a pilot body)off with no justifiable reason;for those still confused with the 130 000 euro carrot our masters always dangle,to arrive at this figure remember it is A -gross salary B -seems to equate to what a TRI/TRE could theoretically earn in C-probably the best month any one ever achieved in RYR multiplied by 12(which is of course unachievable due 900hr limit/annual leave etc)or D-it relates to UK contract converted back to euros;it is certainly in the realms of fantasy on a European permanent contract,if you don't mind living out of a suitcase however much more loot was/is/will be avail?on a Brookfields contract, but you have to ask them to give you the latest because that is a whole different ball game, take lots of care ,it seems there are as many different contracts out there as pilots.