Cost of A320 and B737 rating

[EngineOut]

G'day All,

Just wondering what the damage is for a 737 endorsement with VB and the cost of a A320 endorsement with Jetstar?

I am after actual figures from people who have done it recently, not speculation.

Also, is it true the Jetstar are paying for the endo upfront and then deducting from your pre-tax pay over 12 months?

Thanks.

EO

[Laikim Liklik Susu]

I believe the cost of a 737 endorsement is around $25k give or take a little.

Sorry if that was speculative, but that was the price last I heard it.

[MkVIII]

A 737 endorsement at the Ansett Sim Centre (still running):
15 working days groundschool, (includes 12 hours Fixed-base Sim).

2 x 4-hour Fixed-base sessions, followed by 9 x 4-hour Full Flight sessions.

Costs are:

Single pilot - Aus$ 26,000:00
Two pilot - Aus$ 46,000:00 (split between two).

Training is to the Boeing manual, and all manuals are supplied as part of the course.

Contact Jennifer Sheridan, Flt. Sim. Centre, 61-3-93738005.

[ur2]

The A320 endorsement with J* will cost you around $32k, and yes it will be deducted from your pay as salary sacrifice,a much better arangement.
Also I think you would be doing yourself a favour going to J* rather that VB (if you get the choice) as the future of VB is a little shakey were as at least with J* it is still planning massive expansion and your relative seniority would benefit greatly.
Not to mention with the A320 endorsement you will get work anywhere in the world.

[2FarCanard]

"indistry"

My, my hasn't somebody quickly fallen of the spelling high horse.:ok:

[RaTa]

2FarCanard

My, my.........."fallen of the spelling high horse"!

Cheers!!! :p

[Boomerang]

You can now obtain a JAR approved B737 type rating in the States for 14,400 euros (AUD$23,750), including accommodation, breakfast and transfers from hotel to training centre. Add about 5,000 euros for circuits in the aircraft if you need it to validate a JAR licence, which I don't think is required for a conversion to a CASA licence.

[Dehavillanddriver]

ur2,

How do you figure that Virgin's future is "shakey"?

I see no evidence of that - in fact quite the contrary...

[Captain Can't]

DD,
maybe not shakey, but as already put, relative seniority in the future can be the difference... if virgin is going to 'consolidate' under corrigen and j* is planning an expansion, if you get into J* now, you stand a better chance of a faster command... perhaps similiar timeframes of the first few years of vb?? but then again! who knows!!! cheers fellas :ok:

[2FarCanard]

RaTa,

Very true. However never on that horse in the first place. With my spelling a prefer a very low horse to fall offf. :ouch:

[ur2]

Well DD,
Would you call it solid and expansive, I don't think so, as most of VB captains are relatively young, you would be waiting 15 to 20 yrs for a command, particularly if there is any contraction. Which is quite the opposite that is happening at Jet*.
I would imagine that any junior VB FO would be doing them self a favour jumping ship.

[cunninglinguist]

Shakey may be a bit harsh DhD, but the stock exchange does'nt exactly point to them going gangbusters.

Anyway, all you blokes are mad with talk of 73 and 320 endorsements when the bargain of the century can be had at NJS.....only 30k to fly some of the most antiquated clapped out heaps of junk in the jet universe, and then if you are really really good, you can pay another 15k to upgrade onto a decent jet......why would'nt ya ?? :mad: :confused: :} :yuk: :* :sad:

[ur2]

Just a Q about NJS endorsements,
What happens if no one bids to fly the 717 and they then assign you onto it, who pays for it then?

[2FarCanard]

A question that NJS is trying to find an answer for at this very moment.

[ginjockey]

This jet talk is way beyond me but 15 years in the job before a command seems like a ridiculously long time to serve an apprenticeship in the right hand seat. Imean, if you ain't got it sorted after 10 years, would you really wait another 5 to make sure you understand what's required.

Why would anyone even want to sit in the same job for 15 years when there is so much else going on out there?

Can one of you ask that in your upcoming QF interviews and post the response for me please?

Ta muchly

Gin

[Laikim Liklik Susu]

Career FO's certainly aren't common anymore, but I know a few "Career FO's" that could not make command until the '89 debacle, including "Dyslexic at Canberra", but only after swearing their allegiance to the Dark Side. :p

[scrubed]

Nice one 2Far, but you missed the other one..... "eluscidate".

Too late, I'm sober now and erased it as worse than my usual drivel.

Had I not been smashed, my post would've been something like:




Are you referring to the personal financial cost or the cost to the industry as a whole of individuals caving in and paying for their own training?

I'm sure Gardenbug will know what I was trying to say...

[Kaptin M]

The demand for pilots is starting to increase at an increased rate.
Three different airlines in Japan have recently employed foreign pilots who are not type rated, but who will be paying for the training for them.

Read this thread Retired 60 + year olds recalled to airline (http://pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176224) to see further evidence of how the impending severe shortage is being addressed.


It seems that Australia's airlines are going to be the training grounds and suppliers of pilots to overseas operators, unless the fiscal attaraction is improved.

[mmmbop]

Kaptin M

Too true!!

The days of allegiance to the one carrier is long gone. Th e future is probably going to see a huge increase in contract work, and the likes of QF are going to have to realise that the money saving antics of their management is only going to shoot them in the foot in the long run. Trying to map out the future like they r now will only result in a high turnover of pilots who leave for foreign shores!

[Kaptin M]

I believe allegiance to the company still exists within the majority of most employees, mmmbop, however if a dog is kicked and abused often and long enough (then) one day the dog will bight back and/or move on to where it's better treated.

Yes, contract work is going to boom as carriers that previously had sufficient local pilots to meet their needs are now finding their sources have dried up, in addition to fleet expansions creating extra demand.

It will be the airlines that have sufficient pilots to meet their crewing requirements that are going to be the ones that prosper.

The airline I'm with now has indicated that it will probably need to cancel 8 flights next month simply because they don't have the pilots to crew the schedules.
Twelve months ago it wasn't a problem, but since then 8 or so of the "abused dogs" have resigned.

[cunninglinguist]

UR2, unfortunately NJS don't have that problem as there is no shortage ( at the present ) of drivers wanting to get off the gas chamber. If you knock back the 717 they just move onto the next guy on the list, and there are alot more guys on the list than there are 717 seats.
Evidenced by the fact that ( i am led to believe ) most of the 71 effo's so far are very junior.

[amos2]

You may well be on the wrong website here I suspect, Gin!

Perhaps the stables, hay and horsesh*t website is where you should be?

:ok:

[JockHeavy]

You slay me Bob. Very witty

[Alien Sex God]

Kaptin M, do many of the round eye pilots speak Jap and how are they treated by the Japs? Does they respect you more if you can speak the lingo?

[Kaptin M]

"No" to both A S G.
You know the old adage about Respect ("earned, not bestowed"), whereas it is "a" about face if one is spawned (as a local) here.

Back to the main thread of the topic tho' - if Aussie pilots would stop navel gazing, and start treating THEMSELVES the way they've been treated by their employers....as commodities in the WORLD marketplace, and be willing to move globally, we'd ALL be a LOT better off (as pilots), imho.

[Centaurus]

In answer to original post re type rating costs, I understand that providing you are crewed up with another sim partner (mostly arranged via the sim provider) it will cost close to $21,000 AUD each for a 737 (Classic) command type rating with the Ansett Flight Simulator Centre or Endorsement Training Australia (ETA) - both in Melbourne. Both have websites. It is more expensive with Alteon or Qantas.

[ur2]

Do yourself a favour, get the A320 endorsement.

[ITCZ]

To answer the question, I can tell you what I was told when Jetstar recruiting rang me two weeks ago and offered me a job on their A320.

FO starting salary $73,200
Cairns or Hobart bases available.
Do not expect to supplement base salary by much as very few overnights planned.
You have to do the QF Psychometric and Skills testing.
If you pass that, then there is an interview and a short sim ride in the QF 767 sim to check your flying skills.
If they are happy with you, then they will offer you a job on the A320.
You need to have an A320 type rating in your logbook on the day you turn up for your induction course.
If you don't have an Airbus type rating, the Alteon course takes around 5 weeks and will cost you $34,000.
You will have to pay for your own travel and accommodation to and from p+s testing, interviews and whilst training at Alteon.
You are paid the full $73k salary when you commence your induction course.
You can opt to salary sacrifice the $34k over three years once you start with J*.

Two of my colleagues were also contacted and quoted the same figures.

So it is a lot more than other colleagues of mine paid for their B737 at VB.

However you do not have to drop a great big wad of cash in one hit.

Salary sacrifice means also that you pay pre-tax.

There may be an issue with Fringe Benefits Tax as such a salary sacrifice arrangement might be seen by the ATO as a company loan.

The other advantage over a B737 is that after doing the A320 course, you can go to other Airbus types via a differences course instead of a whole new type rating for Boeing to Boeing.

I will refrain from giving my opinion on the offer. Just the facts for today!

[2FarCanard]

If salary sacrifice is pre tax. Does that mean that the endorsement is technically costing around $17k in the long run?

[EngineOut]

ITCZ,

good post, full of the relevant info I was after. Thanks.:ok:

[atyourcervix73]

The Oz..NZ airline industry is now following the way of europe as it was 4 or 5 years ago. A lot of you guys are now looking at paying for a T/R to secure a job because..
A) You have been unsuccessful to date getting further up the ladder, or...
B) The loco's can see how desperate you are to get onto a jet, and they are taking advantage of it.

Airlines in Europe are now reaping the rewards of this policy, these include.. huge retention problems, increased training costs as crews move on to fund their training debt, not to mention very very low levels of experience in certain operators. Once again the airline bean counters see the cost of everything..and the value of nothing.

[Centaurus]

Very low levels of experience is practically the norm in SE Asia and certainly in Europe. There are first officers (locals) flying A330's with Dragonair with 500 hours total time and a significant number of first officers on 737's with Air Asia went on to the type with just 250 hours total time. It is a fact of life and although we don't hear of the frights and hairy landings that no doubt must occur from time to time, the policy seems to be working.

It should be remembered that in Australia back in the Fifties and Sixties, pilots were being employed by various domestic operators with DC3's and F27's with as low as 200 hours and not even an instrument rating.

[ITCZ]

Cunninglinguist, I think your source of info might be a bit suspect.

A large number of existing NJS 146 pilots in Perth are exercising their option to not bid for the 717. Some think a pilot should be getting more money for a bigger aeroplane, others think that a solid three months away from home to get the endorsement and line training is too hard on the family, others don't like the idea of paying for training, and some are simply quite happy to stay on the 146 and do their out-and-back trips to the mines. Sounds fair enough to me.

WRT the other bases which will see all 146's replaced by the 717, all pilots established in those locations have been allocated a training slot in the 717.

As for the implication that some very junior pilots are being upgraded, how does 8,000 hrs total time, 7 renewals, and just under 3,000 hrs on jets for the most 'junior' FO compare to the Asian carriers discussed above?

:confused:

2FarCanard,

The implications of salary sacrifice depend on how much you are earning and how much tax you are paying.

I hear way too many excuses from colleagues about how they are 'only' taking a $100 to $250 per week paycut, after tax.:hmm:

The truth is that the whole of that $34,000 was YOUR money up until this year.

If you are doing nothing with a $73k salary apart from paying a mortgage and pissing the rest into the urinal on overnights, well, good luck to you.

But that $100 per week you gave away without thinking is actually $190 pre tax. That could have you in a nice house overlooking the Reef instead of your neighbour's 600m2 backyard in the 'burbs. It could have you buying one, two or three investment properties, negatively geared, that could see you retiring at 45 and sailing the world in your yacht or flying your T28 to an airshow instead of humping your overnight bag to the same old three star hotel right up to your 60th birthday.

If you don't want YOUR money, don't give it back to the bloody airline, give it to ME!!!;)