Flying For Fun - Vintage Visitors wanted

[Mike Cross]

The PFA's re-vamped rally, now named Flying For Fun is at Kemble on 1-3 July. They would greatly like vintage (Pre 1939) aircraft to visit. P1 gets in free and there are of course no landing fees.

The FFF website is still a bit ropey but can be found here. (http://www.flyingforfun.net/index.html) From where you can also download the AIC.

There are major changes to the event. BMAA, BGA, The British Rotorcraft Association and The British Model Flying Association are all participating. There will be a small flying display on Saturday afternoon and helicopter joyrides will also be available. Prices have been reduced and there will be more emphasis on making it a family day out for all of the family. Children under 16 get free admission. A major change is that your admission ticket is valid for the whole three days so you can come and go as you please.

On-site camping is available for those wanting to stay overnight.

All aircraft types, including flexwings are welcome to fly in.

This is the best opportunity to bring together many different facets of aviation and deserves our support. If you're worried about the traffic don't be. Just make sure you read and understand the AIC thoroughly, keep a good lookout, and only transmit when required to by the AIC. (Oh and don't land at Aston Down by mistake!):uhoh:


MODS - Sticky?

Mike

[stiknruda]

I am unable to attend for the first time in 10 years! The wedding of the century is in Barcelona and I'll be there unfortunately.

However, in my opinion the PFA is doing itself a dis-service.

Every year the Rally has lost money and the shortfall has come out of corporate PFA, which is primarily funded by membership and permit renewal charges.

I'd far prefer a far smaller rally that didn't cost so much to administrate, was not so reliant on hired in equipment and was restricted to those that are building, those that have built, those that are interested in knowing more about homebuilding and aircraft that are PFA types, be they plans built, kit built or factory orphans.

Basically a fly in to a large farm strip, if you want to stay bring a tent!

The PFA is the PFA it isn't GA-UK PLC. I have no more interest in seeing rows of flying school Warriors and 152s than most of those flying in have in visiting any of the technical forums or browsing through Ken B's stall of broken secondhand bits looking for a Mk14-6B/s2 widget to fit on their current build project.

I just don't believe that the rebranding will make an event so heavily dependant upon wx to be any more successful. Naturally, as a keen PFA-er, I'd like to be proved wrong - but something nagging inside (the resignation earlier this season of Steve Pettit?) suggests that I won't be!

Oh and every PFA project aircraft should get a medal upon its first appearance at a Rally.

Stik

[Laundryman]

"stiknruda" , I award you the order of the "Wooden Spoon" for outstanding efforts to inspire debate through controversial statements.

I am one of those Warrior type drivers (well cherokee actually) I have aspirations of being a plane builder but recognise that I am unlikely to achieve this. The PFA enables me to actively persue my dream through other peoples efforts. My main desire is to fly and the quickest way for me to achieve that was to buy into a group ownership. I think its unfair of you to adopt a superior position just because you are interested in the building side of aviation. The PFA membership is made up of the widest spectrum of aviation related interests and whilst the emphasis may be on construction all other aspects are important.
As far as the rebranding of the FFF is concerned I for one think its important to have a showcase event (a bit more than another "fly-in") my feeling from the mood at the AGM was that by broadening the interest to include family orientated events we could attract more visitors, more visitors means more people getting interested in general aviation which in turn may result in more people building their own planes.

[Mike Cross]

Stik

GA is fragmented and factionalised, as your post demonstrates.
I totally agree with you that corporate PFA should not be subsidising the Rally, it should stand on its own two feet. Expanding it to include BMAA and BGA and the efforts to widen its appeal are there to make it more commercially viable. Making it exclusive will not do that.

I am however totally in favour of gatherings of the type you describe, as witness the pictures at a recent barbecue here. (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=188266)

Mike

[stiknruda]

Laundryman

Is that for coming last or for stirring up debate? If the latter then it has clearly worked as both you and Mike have responded!

The PFA should not risk members funds to offset the cost of an air extravaganza. Plain and simple - should we have money to spare then hire more staff or pay the existing ones more!

The Rally is never going to please everyone and I must admit that I've always had a pretty good time there although last year felt a little flat AND still lost money!

That you are interested in and one day aspire to building qualifies you entry, IMHO.

At Cranfield some years ago Bob Crowe was there with his Cessna Grand Caravan. This is definetely not the face of the PFA; affordable aviation. Nice aircraft the Caravan, I know I've flown one - but not exactly affordable for the masses! Another year we saw the Constellation - great but yet again not exactly a PFA type!

Make the rally simpler, make the outlay less but don't try and turn it into a mini-Oshkosh. This year there will be kitcars, paragliders, hang-gliders and events for the wife and kids, not exactly a members event then, eh? By virtue of the size of the membership, the variance between the FAA and the CAA and because the EAA makes hundreds of thousands through publishing, the PFA will never be a European EAA.

I do hope that it will be a success - I pay the PFA £348 a year to administrate permits for my PFA types. I don't want the value that this could give the association diluted with picking up bills because we've lost sight of our core values and are trying to be something we are not!

Stik, a passionate PFA-er!

[LowNSlow]

Whilst agreeing that the Rally / FFF should be self supporting I agree with Mike that broadening the scope of the event can only be a good thing. There will still be the key events that the PFAer's want to see plus, hopefully, sufficient additional items of interest to encourage non-PFA aviators to visit and hopefully see that PFA aeroplanes have moved on a long way from the Luton Minor (nice as they are if you're under 15 stone). When the EASA charges start to bite in terms of increased rental costs we may see a major swing to PFA type aeroplanes for the UK VFR majority.

[Laundryman]

Stik,

It was of course the latter, I don't come on here to pillary people or get personal. I agree with lots you say but unless you make this event a little bit special you are not going to attract the variety of aircraft.
Assuming I have the germ of an idea to become a plane builder, I check the list of PFA approved aircraft where would I be most likely to see up close and personal the largest number of different aircraft on that list? I would suggest its not going to be the local fly-in.
I like the idea that youngsters being brought by aviation enthusiastic parents will have that germ of an idea instilled in them thus encouraging future members.
I also don't think we should be holding a "Mini Oshkosh", I think we should holding a "Major Oshkosh". Aviation needs to be raised in the public psyche as something worthwhile to be encouraged.

I too am a passionate PFA er

Brendan

[PPRuNe Towers]

Absolutely no objections from the Towers if BRL would like to make Mike's notice a sticky. The Shuttleworth Collection and the PFA are the two organisations we chose to freely support at PPRuNe in terms of publicity.

I believe the discussion is vitally important as well. Much as we'd like to see the influx of new blood and interest a mini Oshkosh/Sun and Fun should initiate Stik does have the knack of making us think. Many of us date back to the Sywell years and it seems to me the annual RSA gathering is closer to what we grew up with and resonates at many levels. The thought of the money lost on the rally last year being used by the engineering department is also very appealing to many of us.

It's a rotten position for organisers though regarding balancing our very disparate views and in the end I'd be looking at our age demographic and using that as the deciding factor. I think attracting new blood wins and the truly devoted should throw their energies into the fly'in scene to feed both their love of classic PFA aviation and to provide vital, friendly, follow on events to lead new members to.

A bit of seed money from the main rally budget to ensure the formal and enthusiastic 'presence' of inspector and coach at a significant number of fly in's might be interesting for ensuring follow up and capture :E

I'd also argue that there is a promotional case for the excellent monthly mag being used as a lure at other shows which bring out the classic flying school, rented Cessna/Piper contingent.

Regards
Rob Lloyd PFA 031099

[Mike Cross]

It's £20 per head for non-members and last time I went to Kemble it was £10 to land the Luscombe so come on two out of the three days and it's cost you no more than the normal landing fee. And you've had an experience and something to look at as well.

This has the potential to become a great meeting place for UK sport aviation if people are prepared to make the effort.

[Windy Militant]

Another thing to consider chaps. The Youth and Education Strut have already registered 500 School children for a tour of the event on Friday.
If we can spark an interest in flying in just a few of those children then that's a big boost to both aviation in general and the PFA.
The average age of PFA members is apparently heading on for sixty years old, so we need some new blood to keep things going!

And there's nothing to stop you going to local fly-ins the rest of the summer as well is there! ;)

PS The Wiltshire Flyers are Holding a Young Eagles event the Sunday after Triple F so if any of you want to come along and give a hand drop me a PM. :ok:

[Jodelman]

I believe you will find that the Rally did NOT lose money last year!!

[G-KEST]

At last a thread I have really enjoyed reading. Some excellent ideas and a feeling that all who have contributed are passionate about the PFA and their aviation interests.

Lets see how FFF2005 turns out. Given a fair crack of the whip with the weather it should be fabulous.

The PFA is all about encouraging safe flying at the lowest practicable cost however the amount of disposable income among members varies enormously. So does the huge range of different types of aircraft operated through the PFA system. Long may it flourish.

I think it might be an excellent idea to make the thread a "sticky".

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:) :) :) ;) ;) :ok:

[DubTrub]

Mr Towers May I offer a third? G-VFWE (as was at Hullavington 2005 with predecessors , as is to be Colerne 2006)

Sywell years And I'm sure you mean Leicester too.

Windy M quotesThe average age of PFA members is apparently heading on for sixty years old Please advise where that age comes from. Come up to Leicester some time.

Rob

[Windy Militant]

Hello Dub Trub,
Ok I was fibbing a bit when I said sixty, but the trend is definately upwards. A couple of years ago a survey of the membership was done by PFA headquaters. I was helping with the PFA shop at the rally shortly after the results came in and the question was bounced around the volunteers on the stand, as average PFAers, as to how we would get younger people to join the PFA. It seems that home building has a rather staid image, old f@rts pottering in sheds with quaint old flying machines.
Hip and trendy youngsters go Microlighting and Parasending instead.

If you chaps in Leicester have found a way to get groovy young dudes and dudettes to join, then you'll have to tell head office how you do it and I'll have to pop along and visit you some time! :ok:

[stiknruda]

Jodelman, you are obviously better informed than I am! If the Rally 2004 didn't lose money, how much did it contribute to PFA corporate coffers?

Oh, love the new monthly magazine - very well done!

Stik

[DubTrub]

WMIf you chaps in Leicester have found a way to get groovy young dudes and dudettes
No big secret..Buy an aeroplane on a permit, offer it for non-capital shares, share the monthlies, everyone pays their check-out, fuel and oil, the aircraft gets the utilisation, reduce the costs for all.

I guess our average age is about 40. (in my group anyway...and there are many here).

Come along any time as my guest, Windy ...you tailwheel checked?

I miss the 1939 date...our 'plane is 1941, so I guess we'll go elsewhere.:ugh:

WM I forgot to add:
old f@rts pottering in sheds with quaint old flying machines Well perhaps at Forty, I\'m an old f@rt, for I am restoring a 1940\'s aeroplane in my "shed". Don\'t like the "pottering" word, though, sounds like gardening.
Hip and trendy youngsters go Microlighting and Parasending instead Well perhaps I\'m a Hip and Trendy youngster, since at Forty, I also microlight. Not sure on the parascending bit, I confess.

home building has a rather staid image Glad you mentioned homebuilding, the only poster to mention it previously was Stik...and he is hardly a "staid" homebuilder.

Seriously, I would be interested in further detail of the membership survey...was this formally conducted, and if so, subsequently formally published? With a great number of "modern" ali-riveted and GRP designs, I\'m surprised.

If this is the accepted perception, then it needs addressing...and the first thing is to find out who has that perception? I would suggest it is a selection of the GA community who perceive their home-building and vintage-flying fellow pilots as shed-pottering old fogies in carpet slippers. It is not therefore our un-slippered duty to educate them that this is not the full story?

The PFA is more than that, and I would venture to suggest that the more homebuilders than your sources suggest are actually younger than they think.

Rob

[stiknruda]

DT,

I think that the profile of the average homebuilder has changed a lot in the last 20 years.

With the plethora of kit aircraft available now, the image of "Fred in his shed" dissapearing for hours on end over a twenty year period to emerge with a hand-crafted aeroplane is rapidly dissapearing.

Younger, more affluent builders seem to go for fast-build kits as acheivement is visible from very early on.

When I plans-built my first aircraft, I'd beaver away for months and would have nothing but a cardboard box full of bits to show for it.

There were crowd-pleasing days:

fuselage on the gear

empennage on the fuse

emp and fuse covered

wings on

aircraft fully rigged

wings off and covered

wings back on

engine in

cowls completed

canopy on

then lots of regression as everything came off again for painting!


Laborious, time-consuming and very much a "labour of love".

Stik

[LowNSlow]

Stik,

After all that how can you put the Purple pitts up for sale :{ :{ Surely you haven't fallen out of love.....

Reading through the PF Monthly (well done) magazine, the upsurge in "modern" aircraft types (Vans, Europa etc) does seem to be dominating the "traditional" PFA types (Luton Minor, Pietenpol etc). The cost of these kits does however limit their appeal to over 30's who have the disposable income to buy them in the first place. A fairly sweeping generalisation I know but I'd guess that under 30 year old aircraft builders are a tiny minority.

[Windy Militant]

Hello Dub,
I can't remember whether the results were ever circulated or not.
I'm currently in two struts one has a fairly venerable membership the other I'd say has a mid to late forties average. Curently there's only one member below thirty between the two!

In response to the point about younger more affluent types. Most of these people don't have time/can't be bothered with kits. They want to have something to fly immediatly.
I suspect that's why a lot of them go for microlights, they come ready made at a price they can afford.

Anyway I'm off to potter about in my shed. (Our aeroplane is a mere whippersnapper born in 1946)That way I might just get round to finally getting my tail dragger rating this year. ;)

[MikeSamuel]

No big secret..Buy an aeroplane on a permit, offer it for non-capital shares, share the monthlies, everyone pays their check-out, fuel and oil, the aircraft gets the utilisation, reduce the costs for all.

I'd agree that this is definitely the way to get younger people interested in the PFA. In my experience of flying and building with the organisation I'd say the average age is somewhere in the mid 50s. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing or a surprise! Younger pilots simply don't have the money or free time to build a kit (of course, a generalisation).

I'm certainly one of the younger member of the organisation (20 y.o.) but I've been lucky to have been "adopted" by a group who were building an RV-9A near where I live and I've put lots of hours in on the build, learnt new things, worked at the rally and now am working with the Youth/Education Strut. It's looking like me getting my PPL and the kit being finished will coincide so I will have the pleasure of flying it!

I think a great idea for FFF would be to set up a stand where builders who could do with help can post their details and younger visitors to the show could contact them and get involved in their build project. If they enjoy it and put in a decent number of hours help, why not reward them with a non-capital share? More utilisation, friendship, and fun is the way to go...

Mike