Why this forum is not for experienced pilots! - Discussion [Archive]

scroggs

31st Mar 2005, 13:43

How is the forum supposed to be of any use, unless the occasional 'insider' posts something?

The stated policy is effectively saying that once you've made it to an airline, you're not welcome to come back and post advice to those who would like to follow. That's a bit harsh isn't it?

This forum is for those pilots brand new to the industry to discuss the issues given in its title. Of course the advice and experience of those in the industry is welcome, and is often given - and not just by me and WWW. It is not that kind of contribution that is inappropriate, it is the discussion by experienced pilots of jobs and interviews not available to newbies which is inappropriate and should (and will) be moved to 'Terms and Endearments'.

Scroggs

flaps to 60

31st Mar 2005, 19:45

Scroggs

When i saw you post this one i thought i was a can of worm just waiting to be opened.

My only surprise was that it took so long for people to bite.

It can be argued that this forum is for all pilots looking for a job both new and experienced as the forum name is Interviews Jobs and Sponsorships. But yes the questions about a particular airline and its T & C's do belong elsewhere.

Im sure the less experienced and those without jobs appreciate the advice both positive and neagtive from those higher up the experience ladder.

Maybe the title of you thread could be modified to make it clearer as the original certainly caught my eye but for the wrong reasons.

scroggs

31st Mar 2005, 20:30

Flaps This forum is within the Wannabes section of Pprune. From the Pprune Forums front page, the Wannabes section description begins: 'The Wannabes forums are for those aspiring to join our fraternity of professional aviators with the best view in the house'. The description of the Interviews, Jobs & Sponsorships forum is as follows: 'Do ya feel lucky, Punk? Well do ya? If so, here's the place to swap the hot gen on who's sponsoring or employing, their selection criteria, and where those oh so elusive first jobs can be spotted in the wild. Watch out for the tumbleweeds...' Which part of these descriptions gives you the impression that either of the Wannabes forums are for experienced pilots?

The section of the site that deals with experienced aircrew and their issues is the Flight Deck Forums. Within that section, the forum Terms and Endearments deals with employment and related issues. I had asked for it to be renamed less equivocally, but that request was refused, which is a shame. That doesn't alter the fact that professional, experienced pilots who post seeking informations about jobs in this forum patently can't read, and thus clutter up this forum with traffic inappropriate to its purpose.

Scroggs

flaps to 60

1st Apr 2005, 06:45

Scroggs

I dont disagree with your points.

But the tittle of your thread was bound to court some controversy.

I looked at the title and thought thats a bit cheeky when many experienced pilots have contributed to the wannabes section dishing out much appreciated advice on how to get that "elusive first job" or the next job up the evolutionary scale. And yes i do understand what your saying about gathering information on a particular airline from the other forums.

Take Localiser's excellent post on the BA interview process, for all the wannabe BA pilots or getting that elusive First jet job it was invalauble.

As i said on the last post its the tone of the thread title. I dont expect you to change it but as you can see it has raised a few eyebrows.

VC10 Rib22

2nd Apr 2005, 15:50

Scroggs,

I fully agree with you that it should be fairly obvious to all who actually bother to read the text within the yellow band (as pilots we are expected to read what things do before utilising them), that 'wannabee' infers someone with no experience as a professional pilot, hence any interview and job information within this forum should be solely for the attention of the non-professionals, and that any information on jobs and interviews exclusively for the attention of fellow professional pilots should be posted in Terms and Endearments.

However, can you please confirm that you do not mind any professional pilots - who have jumped all the fences (some more recently than others) and, due to their position within the airlines, may have information pertaining to the wannabee - posting on this forum, or otherwise, as this is an area where confusion may arise, I believe?

Thanks

VC10 Rib22

:ok:

scroggs

2nd Apr 2005, 16:03

We have always welcomed contributions intended to help Wannabes in their career and training choices, whatever the source.

Scroggs

VC10 Rib22

3rd Apr 2005, 09:23

Scroggs,

Thank you for your confirmation, hopefully the situation is clear to all now.

Regards

VC10 Rib22

:ok:

Luke SkyToddler

30th Apr 2005, 14:07

Hrumph

Of course ... how could I have been so inconsiderate ... it seems so obvious to me now that if I was a total stranger stumbling across PPRUNE in search of gen for some upcoming interview, the first place I would search would be "Terms and Endearment" because, after all, that's the place that's clearly signposted on the front page as "news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations"!! :rolleyes:

And another thing, perhaps somebody could just elaborate on what makes a 'first job' seeker so different from a second or third job seeker, and why they deserve to have the forum all to themselves?

The sad truth is, that whenever most of us 'experienced' airline types log on here, we find that some highly desirable jet airline that's been rejecting our multiple-thousand hour CVs for the last 5 years, has just hired another couple dozen freshly minted OATS / CTC whippersnappers :rolleyes:

In the face of the current employment climate / a.k.a. the onslaught of the 200 hour buy-a-type-rating brigade snapping up every decent jet job that's going in Britain these days anyway, perhaps before we start telling people who's allowed to stay in the forum and who has to go, we should first have a bit of a grown up debate as to who exactly constitutes a 'wannabe' and who doesn't?

When it comes to jet airlines, I certainly consider myself to be competing for exactly the same jobs as so many of those searching for their 'first' job and don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to take part in the discussion.

If you wish those of us with a few more hours to banish ourselves elsewhere every time we wish to discuss (for argument's sake) the interview process with some airline that's offering DE turboprop command positions, then cool, we can do that ... but then again, who exactly are we p!ssing off by conducting that conversation in here?

The fresh-out-of-flying-school brigade don't seem to mind, in fact I suspect most of them would rather that we continue to hang around ... or at least, every time I make some post discussing those kind of issues not relevant to first timers, I still seem to get a whole bunch of PM's from total strangers trying to get a CV put on the chief pilot's desk at my airline.

This forum has traditionally been about 1000% more active than 'Terms and Endearment' when it comes to getting the gen on interviews, regardless of what level the interviews are pitched at - most people just don't bother to surf T&E when they are handing out the interview debrief. So why the sudden change, is it just a trying-to-keep-the-forum-neat-and-tidy kind of a thing?

Maybe it's time to subdivide 'wannabes' again, into 'Training', 'Sponsorships' and 'Interviews' or something like that?

scroggs

11th May 2005, 18:02

There will be no further subdivision of Wannabes. I had asked for 'T&E' to be renamed to more accurately reflect its purpose and use, but that request was refused. That does not alter the policy for this forum. It will remain for those who are attempting to acquire their first professional pilot appointment. If a discussion strays into jobs a little further up the food chain, that doesn't mean it will automatically be binned or moved, but don't expect discussions about 747 jobs to remain here for long!

Scroggs

Tonic Please

19th May 2005, 23:23

I'm shaking my head here, and before i began to type, had my palms facing the sky. Why are flaps and luke arguing I thought.

I looked at their profiles. One is an airline pilot, the other just says pilot and J31 type. Nevertheless, can you not just save Scroggs his valuable time and not bother arguing about a point he has made more than 2 times?

This is wanabees. Its not where 'am'ees go. Please take a hike over to the Terms and Endearment.

I find it hard to comprehend why people spend such a long time posting a waste of time thread that will not change anything.

Scroggs...I'm glad you have to deal with this and not me. :zzz:

*ponders as to the length my innocent post will survive*

Dan :)

and on the end...Luke said something about what defines a wanabee...why cant 'we flyers looking for 2nd or 3rd jobs' post here. Well, you just answered your own question!!!!! YOU ARE NOT A WANABEE LOOKING FOR THAT 'ELUSIVE FIRST FLYING JOB WITH THE BEST VIEW IN THE HOUSE'. :rolleyes:

flaps to 60

21st May 2005, 16:14

Tonic

Im sure that in your endeavours to be an airline pilot you have heard the phrase RTFQ and RTFA.

Read my posts again and then think about it then re-post.

I merely pointed out to Scroggs that his post may court some controversy and if you did read my post i agreed with him and that some q's should be in T & C's. Dont be in such a rush to start an argument that isn't there

Do ya feel lucky, Punk? Well do ya? If so, here's the place to swap the hot gen on who's sponsoring or employing, their selection criteria, and where those oh so elusive first jobs can be spotted in the wild. Watch out for the tumbleweeds...

Read this from the banner of the wannabees section.

Note: here's the place to swap the hot gen on who's sponsoring or EMPLOYING..................AND where those oh so elusive first jobs etc etc.

Once and for all TP.
1) My thoughts on this subject will not make scroggs et al change thier stance.

2) I never asked him to change or indeed disagreed with Scroggs.

3) People will still do it whatever you and i thinkas thats the nature of PPRUNE

4) I fly a lovely TP for an airline and im looking for the next job a jet job and find it useful sometimes to look in the wannabes section

ifleeplanes

22nd May 2005, 08:01

Shouldn't this topic now be moved to Terms and Endearment...;):ouch:

Luke SkyToddler

22nd May 2005, 09:10

You know I can remember back in about 1997 when Danny first created 'wannabes', it was the first time that any sub forums were created in here (before that, the entire site consisted of R&N).

Me and Wee Weasley Welshman were pretty p!ssed off about the whole thing (at the time, I was a newly qualified FI and him just going through CPL training), and we protested bitterly at the time, along with a few others like Redsnail as well, because we all thought if they created a forum just for wannabes, we'd just be getting banished to our little corner where we wouldn't be able to chat to real live "airline pilots", ask questions / get answers from people who knew, and network with people who were already employed in the industry.

Funny how times change. When I was a wannabe looking for a job, I was very grateful for whatever interview knowledge I could gain, regardless of whether it was related to an airline I was targetting at that moment or not ... now it seems the wannabes wish to bite any experienced airline hands that wish to feed them, and make them bugger off to another forum.

I have a few good memories of wannabes over the years, the pages of arguments raging against people paying for their own MCCs when that first started happening in the '90s ... then the whole buy-a-type-rating thing in the '00s ... I can even remember the original ronchonner 'yellow dick tattoo' thread :D

I just feel that I have been one of the 'founding members' of wannabes and in my own little way have kind of helped to create the atmosphere in here over much of the last decade, I enjoy the craic (even though as it's turned into a big and less personable forum, it's gone the way of most big internet forums and slowly become over full of arrogant little pseudo patronizing ****s like Tonic who've been here for all of about 10 minutes and think they're mods and they own the place).

I'm sure flaps, redsnail, weasley and most of the other old timers feel the same, a certain sense of community here even though we've now moved a few steps higher up the career ladder.

I guess what I'm saying is that I am going to hang around here regardless of what anyone else says, and if I feel I have something to contribute I'll do so. Tonic if you don't like the inputs that current, knowledgeable airline captains bring to this forum, then feel free to put me on your ignore list and chat to all your other cool mates like spaceman1000.

I do appreciate, scroggs, having been a mod myself once upon a time (on a big non-flying related board) I do appreciate how hard it is at times to try and do your mod job in the face of continual bitching from the rank and file such as myself ... so if it matters to you so much that we don't discuss jobs not suitable for first timers in here, then have it your way, and I will do my best to comply.

However I still think you're making a mistake in asking us to go across to T&E. The fact is, that T&E at present is NOT set up as being a forum suitable for discussion of INTERVIEW processes at big airlines. Just looking around T&E as I write this, every single thread of the 30 or so on the first page is related to working conditions, pay or rostering, reminiescing about the good old days, and one thread seeking contact details for a particular airline. In other words they are discussing in there exactly what they have been told to discuss. There is not a single mention of interview/assessment topics at all.

So I would still appreciate if one or the other of the forums could be clearly marked as a place where interview processes for those kind of jobs could be discussed. Until such time as that, should I find myself in urgent need of interview/assessment gen for a particular airline I'm afraid I'll be posting in here, same as always.

scroggs

22nd May 2005, 11:44

Luke, you and I have both been here a long time (I was on the original e-mail Pprune digest!), and seen a lot of things change. Wannabes is one of the most successful and relevant parts of the whole site, and I think it's pretty well adapted to the needs of its primary users - those guys who have yet to get a licence and find a job.

As I said a little earlier, I am quite happy to apply a bit of leeway in the threads that appear in this forum, but I'm not going to let things stray far from the purpose for which it exists.

T&E is frequently used for discussing interviews, though it may be true there are none on the first page right now. However, the emphasis there is slightly different, in that the conversations are between people who've been through the whole interview process before (maybe several times) and who only need to know fairly brief details about the procedure at a given airline. In Wannabes, on the other hand, people need a far more fundamental explanation of the interview process - right from what to wear (how many times has that come up!).

The fact is that your needs, as a now-employed airline pilot, have moved on from where Wannabes is, and the forum isn't going to change to move with you. This is the kindergarten, and you're now at primary school! I know it feels comfortable to be here, but you need to broaden your horizons now. However, you're welcome back anytime to add to the wealth of knowledge that the Wannabes need!

Scroggs

Tonic Please

23rd May 2005, 01:22

Flaps..hands up from me. No argument intended..but during my pprune prowel, coming across this thread was too much to not post on. It seemed to be all against scroggs' forum rules, and his defense of them.

I do know the infamous RTFQ RTFA abbreviations, and point duly taken. To save digging a hole I'll just cut my case loose. The fact still remains, this is directed to anyone not you flaps, that as scroggs said just above me, this is for those who want the ABCs and 123s of interviews; not really the "ive worked for 10 years, had 4 interviews, know it all, give me some guidance please" types..hence the wanabees. I just dont see how any further discussion is needed...

Maybe I'm wrong, but i have a little feeling this thread might be closed before long :bored:

Good luck to all, however, in the quest for jobs.

P.S. Luke...I've been here for 3 years on this name, and had another for 2 years before that. Theres a little more to me than you know, so Id like at least an appology or take back for you mini bash against me which is very misguided. :ouch:

scroggs

23rd May 2005, 08:16

This thread is getting well away from the purpose of the original sticky thread, which has been edited to clarify its message.

If you wish to continue discussing the purpose of the forum (bearing in mind that its policy will not change (see my post earlier)), you may do so - politely, please - here.

Scroggs

flaps to 60

23rd May 2005, 08:53

Scroggs

Without wishing to deepen this go no where debate. As I remember it, in kindergarten we had teachers and they had been in the job for a long time, highly qualified and dished out their knowledge to a willing pupils.

I think and im sure some will say i dont! that all the experienced chaps gleaned much knowledge from this forum in thier quest for that "elusive" first job and when they have moved up a rung or two they come back to dish out thier knowledge and experiences.

In doing so some may inadvertently traverse that slippery path in to which your original post was intending to avoid.

To some it may seem that you have dug your heels in just a tad and thats fine we all do. But as i said before, I agree with you, mostly, but the tone of your original post has indeed courted some controvery and PPRUNE is just the place for that type of thing.

VC10

I fully agree with you that it should be fairly obvious to all who actually bother to read the text within the yellow band (as pilots we are expected to read what things do before utilising them),

I did and as a Professional Pilot i read the bit below it as well and as i intimated in my previous post the rest of the text may well be read to include those that this very debate is all about.

Tonic Please

I do hope your title is preceeded by "GIN and" and ends with "ice and a slice and be quick about it my good man".

It takes a big man (or girl) to put thier hands a up and say what you did and in the same vein i will appologise for the looking for an argument comment as i was called in off standby for an early and was a little tired and tetchy....not an excuse but a reason!

If your profile is up to date then good luck with your ATPL's it will all be worth it when you get in even when you get called in on a standby day.

Scroggs your right it has moved off the subject and i will try to resist the temptation to post on this again......I hope!

jamestkirk

23rd May 2005, 09:47

What a thread.

Scroggs did clearly state from the outset that the opinion of professional pilots in continued work was welcome.

So why has so many had a thrombo and got really sensitive. Some are more interested in the fine art of one upmanship, obviously.

Personally, i find the feedback of the pilots in work (lucky windsocks) giving employment advice quite useful and the constant threads of how they hate their job a bit depressing.

PPRuNe Towers

23rd May 2005, 10:29

1: The rubrik heading these forums says it all.

2: Over on T+E experienced pros don't generally need the anal minutiae and handholding regarding interviews you guys understandably crave. By definition they've succeeded in previous interviews and discussion concentrates on the unusual, corrupt or baffling. Therefore it is terms, conditions, promotion prospects and quality of life that dominate - they well and truly have the experienced pro pilot t-shirt. This is entirely logical if you think about it and the forum does exactly what it says on the tin - plaintive enquiries from fAtpls usually get a very poor response.

3: Input from experienced folks has always been welcome here. The dearth is your problem not theirs. As a generalisation they cringe with embarrassment at the topics and views you consider to be important. Additionally there are only a patient, generous few who are willing to answer the same questions again and again and again. They are engaged in a 30 or 40 year career and see exactly the same themes from each 18 month or 2 year generation of wannabees rolling through this place. After 7 years of "Integrated V Modular' you do tend to lose the will to live.

4: They are disgusted at the importance and weight you generically give to the views of instructors and marketeers, the vast majority of whom have never done what you aspire to and regard you as fodder and throughput to keep their mortgages paid irrespective of the chances of you ever working professionally in aviation.

5: Finally, many are convinced that your unrealistic expectations and desperate scrabbling at the foot of the industry is a prime reason for what they perceive as the savage erosion in their terms and conditions. They also look around at their colleagues and find your vehement claims regarding the how's, where's and why's regarding best training and resulting career success utterly laughable.

If you consider the foregoing as crap think about this carefully - where are all the avid and regular generations of wannabees who lived ate and drank from this forum now they are, hopefully, experienced working pros?

Roll back the date on the forum 2 or 3 years and look at the names - where are they now when you need them?

Regards
Rob

Lolo737

23rd May 2005, 11:55

My goodness Mr Pprune Towers (Sir!), thats harsh!

Particularly....
5: Finally, many are convinced that your unrealistic expectations and desperate scrabbling at the foot of the industry is a prime reason for what they perceive as the savage erosion in their terms and conditions. They also look around at their colleagues and find your vehement claims regarding the how's, where's and why's regarding best training and resulting career success is utterly laughable.

Naive we may be but thats harsh.

PPRuNe Towers

23rd May 2005, 12:23

err,

Discuss and rebut by all means lolo but why pick up a point that only those with several years and a company or two under their belts could effectively slap down?

Either the point I make in that paragraph is a widely held perception or it isn't. Whatever the case a good and effective drubbing could only possibly come from your peers - those with significant and current experience.

You guys are fed dreams and BS - PPRuNe is the only leavening of reality countering both FTO propaganda and wannabees self delusion. Yep, it can be uncomfortable sometimes but this 'harsh' advice actually comes from folks who do the job you aspire to, are doing it now and, most significantly of all, aren't after any money from you.

Regards to all,
Rob

AIRWAY

23rd May 2005, 13:12

G'day,

Views can be subjective, we may not all agree with it (I personally sympathise with Luke’s view) but they are there to be followed, I might not agree with “some” points but I just have to get on with it, express my view and adapt, and like Scroggs has stated in his previous post, experienced pilots are welcome to a certain extent, their advice is precious and should be welcome by wannabes and others, it would be wrong to exclude them from this section completely, at the end of the day we are (will be) part of the same team.

Kind Regards and Safe Flying,
Airway

:8

haughtney1

23rd May 2005, 14:07

Hey all,

As a comparative newbie on here, a benefactor from PPrune, and someone who has been about a bit in aviation of many kinds....I can sympathise with pretty much all thats been said here. The very fact that there are divergent points of view is both healthy and helpful IMHO.
Scroggs I can see your point of view..even if it was expressed a little too rigidly, as far as Im concerned this whole discussion comes down to a question of balance and relevance.
Luke, as always your not one to sit on the fence mate..but thats why I agree with what you've said...your views are relevant and balanced.
Flaps 60..I can see where your coming from, I actually think you and Scroggs are in agreement, it was just the method of delivery where there is a difference of opinion!!!
Rob...couldnt agree more..yep harsh but true, but isnt anything in life worth persuing.
On the whole, I for one am going to try and continue to contribute to this forum, it is after all the place that has given me a start in UK....long may it continue

Cheers

H
:ok:

Lolo737

23rd May 2005, 14:12

Rob (if I may call you Rob!),

I dont doubt for a minute that this is an area a humble fATPL could not adequately comment on.

I dont want to rebut what you said and agree with you that 'only those with several years and a company or two under their belts could effectively slap down?' (your point) which I can agree with in many ways.

I think your points were made in a harsh manner. Thats all.

Any newly qualified person in any profession hoping to gain an entry level position against much competition has only their perception of that profession built upon the views of their peers and those they have experienced in the training enviroment. Reading websites like these are so useful in presenting a more realistic picture but postings like yours are just disheartening.
We look up to you after all.

But hey, its not your job to worry about our state of mind.
Guess I should get back onto the subject; I welcome the views of anybody lookin for any job within the forum.

PPRuNe Towers

23rd May 2005, 14:44

But it is our job to worry Lolo,

Why else would we bother to put so much time and effort into creating and running this part of the site? We are entirely sympathetic to your dreams and aspirations - we couldn't be anything else. We've been through the system ourselves and with nothing like the support you get here.

However, we have to be the counterpoint to the spin, gloss and, yes, lies you guys face on a daily basis during the couple of years you spend fighting your way through the hoops to a licence. Therefore harsh truths do get told every few months and we derive no pleasure from it. Many of you will join us for 30 years or more on the flight deck and only then will you know whether we are right or not with certainty. You will all also find out in your own time whether revisiting this forum makes you feel uncomfortable as you see the next generations' wide eyed, blissful, uninformed enthusiasm.

And so to the substantive part of this thread. It's our judgement on how the forums are defined and steered. It is entirely possible that there is a better way of doing it. It is entirely probable that there is someone out there who, if they got off their arse, could produce something that leaves us in the weeds.

We think we get the overall balance right. We believe that the existance of the wannabees forums genuinely helps you until you get to join us working stiffs. Bolstered by the demonic enthusiasm of the Weasly Welshman we invented all this - it had never been done before. We're in our tenth year now, you're all here by choice and the first generation of PPRuNe Wannabees are in the left seat of jets or getting very close to it.

And that is the only reason why we do this - putting something back.

Regards again,
Rob Lloyd

Lolo737

23rd May 2005, 15:34

Ok, you've convinced me! And I appreciate your input!

As far as I can tell in my position I think you do get the balance right - I just had to take issue with the 'desperate scrabbling at the foot of the industry' comment, knowing that at one time, you too must have been in our position!

Any one of us thats spent more than a few days trying to get a foot on the ladder knows the spin we've been fed is BS but that doesn't mean we set out expecting job offers to be easy to secure, it just means we've all set out with the hope that we will be the lucky one. And while its crucial to be well-informed, surely you can understand this wide-eyed enthusiastic hope!?

So at the risk of sounding trite...Thanks for being 'entirely sympathetic to [our] dreams and aspirations' and please keep up the good work (but maybe in a slightly less harsh tone!;) )

Mister Geezer

23rd May 2005, 21:19

As someone who used to be a 'wannabe' I always used to find it interesting when reading about the latest gossip from the likes of Gulf Air, Emirates, Cathay, Virgin and the rest. Now these airlines are not even an option for the 'wannabe' but I found such posts interesting, informative and some times fascinating. They may well have given me some insight into what I want to get out of my commercial career. As someone who flies commercially I never cringe at the posts I see on wannabes because for some people this is their first point of contact in finding out about what could be a potential career. For someone that knows nothing then you can't expect in depth questions!

I don't think any of us are disgusted at the views that wannabes have towards instructors and marketing people. We have all been there and remember the scams and the con artists that were out to make a quick buck. In general wannabes are aware of the big bad world of FTOs and know that they are a business and their main concern is making money from you! With the large volume of information available on PPRuNe then any wannabe worth his salt should know what lies ahead (broadly speaking) in the long road to getting the blue book.

Having threads on recruitment for experienced bods in this forum could well be a positive thing. The more airline/corporate pilots we can get into this forum will be to the wannabes benefit. I still look at wannabes frequently - still as often as when I was hunting for my first job because I like to know who is recruiting and what the latest gossip is. I am obviously in the minority but by not giving my fellow airline colleagues a reason to enter wannabes is surely a negative thing for those starting off in their careers.

On the topic of the erosion in terms and conditions. I don't really blame those starting out even though they don't help by selling their soul but it is the management in our own companies that are to blame. They call the shots and decide what they can get away with and what we can't get away with!

Rob - I am not having a bash at what you said earlier but I hope I am providing a alternative viewpoint from someone from the other side of the fence. A view that I think could be more widespread than you may think! ;)

The more pros that pass through this forum is bound to be a good thing for those starting out!

PPRuNe Towers

23rd May 2005, 23:28

But MG - you exemplify the glorious few who post consistently and helpfully throughout the site over an extended period.

Anyone can look up your posts and see exactly what I mean. No ego, no aggro - just common sense and a patently deep desire to assist others. This the reason why you, like Luke, have been on our shortlist of poor sods we approach to become mods for a few months now. This dubious honour is, in our twisted minds, a form of compliment although many would regard it more as a threat.

That said we reckon wannabees should get out of this forum at every available opportunity to evesdrop on the workers in their natural habitat elsewhere on the site. They are shy, reserved creatures and startle easily when approached by thrusting young skygods. You'll learn much more where they are talking amongst themselves.

Secondly, all of you should pull up MG's posts and trawl back in time to when he was training. Click on a selection of posts from that period and you will find the Wannabees forum totally familiar yet utterly strange at the same time. All the usual topics being discussed but those names - who the hell are they all?

It's a bit of a twilight zone experience. A parallel universe where, apart from Mister Geezer and a couple of other heros, none of them ever came back.

Here's a sample thread - familiar topic so just look at the names of the contributors: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8112

Do not adjust your sets - it will just be very wierd for a while.

Rob
(Fade to black - roll titles and cue spooky music)

flaps to 60

23rd May 2005, 23:46

Sorry Scroggs

I did try to stay away but hey that's PPRUNE.

Haughtny

I can see where your coming from, I actually think you and Scroggs are in agreement, it was just the method of delivery where there is a difference of opinion!!!

Your right I do mostly but that is not to say that i dont think that there should be some lattitude in this section or another one all together. But as i said earlier Scroggs has dug his heels in and i dont think he's going to change his mind.

As we all know the moderators are busy people and do this for the love of it. Therfore i get the feeling that the resistance to add a new section (which i think personaly is justified) is because they dont want to see their precious time being wasted watching us all bitch slap each other.

Ps Haughtny give Nearly man a slap in the back of the head for me and tell him its from the big fella!!!

Towers

Once again your points were elegantly put and keeping it real but possibly a little harsh on Lolo i can only put that down to an iffy pint in the Sub!!!

The real culprits for the erosion of T & C's is down to bin laden followed very quickly by MOL et al then in there somewhere in there the flying schools with very snappy ads enticing the weak. Not necessarily wannabees "willing to sell thier soul" though this will not help. I was lucky i didn't have to but would have done if pushed.

I remember a colleague who was vehement in his indignation that food was sent to the starving in Africa "Quoting that if you gave them some food to live you'd have to shoot them to keep them away asking for more". Quick as a flash another colleague said (as i was still thinking what a tool) "that's easy for you to say as your not starving". Excellent reposte!

The wannabees are starving where as the likes of me are merely hungry for more and some are Mr Creasote who can no longer see their knob for all the fat. Some who havent seen their Hampton in years have forgotten what its like to starve while a few throw a few scraps that are greatly received by the starving and the hungry.

Once i was starving and now i have more and try to keep a few scraps for the less fortunate and so far its been the wannbees section that appreciates it (I hope). Sometimes the enthusiasm from those higher up the evolutionary scale spills over into "Oi whats it like working for so and so". Its like farting.......only natural though not always well received.

Mister Geezer

Well put!

Management are now driven by share price and not by customer service and therefore a long term stratagy. Share price is mostly based on profits or by the actions of the management and it seem the Porsche driving Red Braces are taken in by this in my mind unsustainable way of running a business.

To all the Mods keep up the good work. We may not always agree with you but we do appreciate the sterling effort you guys put in to keep this unique site lively.

Ps Rob

The rubrik or banner at the beginning of the wannabees section is very clear. Its the small print underneath that may well misunderstood

haughtney1

24th May 2005, 09:22

flaps60..........part of me always suspected nearly man liked a slap or two:}
Allegedly we are meeting up for a beer this afternoon...(or a white-wine spritzer..for girly-boy nearlyman..!!)

cheers

H:ok:

flaps to 60

24th May 2005, 09:29

Haughtney

I thought he was a snowball type of gal or at best a sweet sherry!

Good luck with the 75 from what nearly man has told me it looks like fun.

Luke SkyToddler

24th May 2005, 23:31

Hahaha ... Luke the PPRuNe mod ... oh the glorious power ... I could dish out the crass comments and melodramatic exaggerations and scathing put-downs and slag people off all day, and NO ONE COULD STOP ME *evil villain laugh* It takes a lot to absolutely floor me with surprise Rob but that pretty much takes the biscuit, I just kind of naturally assumed that having spent most of a decade sh!t stirring and running my mouth off in here, that I would be about as popular in the chateau moderator as a plate of ham sandwiches at a Jewish wedding.

Apologies proffered to you anyway Tonic, seems strange that we don't know each other since we've both been around for a while, but it is undoubtedly best that we learn to get on with each other, especially since everyone else in this thread appears to be handing out the group hugs and forgive-and-forgets :ok:

FWIW, I also think you're being a bit harsh on the wannabes Rob, with regard to accusing them of ruining the working conditions for the people at the top. Yeah it's a disgrace what some of these flying school owners and employers are doing to these wannabes and I've vented my frustration on these pages on many occasions, but I've also come to the conclusion that asking unemployed desperate wannabes to make sacrifices and telling them it's to protect the future of their own industry, is kind of like asking starving Brazilian peasants to please not feed their children by cutting down the Amazon rain forest. Noble sentiments but wasted breath. We - the employed, experienced ones - are the people who should be taking a stand to stop the rot, because we are the only ones who have any sort of a lever to wield against the bean counters. It's an issue for ALPA and it's time someone started taking it seriously down there.

Time for a new thread on that subject perhaps?

PPRuNe Towers

25th May 2005, 01:18

ummm, they're not eroding terms at the top - huge shortage Luke - I mean huge. Every one of the agencies is promising to love us long, long time and I know you will have been following the sagas of companies like BA and Emirates getting no shows.

However, it is screwing up to the first ten years or so of peoples' career when they have vast debts to pay off. It's also stopping us getting the previous leavening of experienced turboprop folks. The training load is vast and the system really is maxed out.

You know better than the vast majority here what it's like in a country with a vast oversupply of commercially rated pilots and what it does to the market.

The effect is now significant here as well - wanabees have often voiced what they see as 'decent' starting pay. Let's take 25K as a ball park figure. I've got the slips and tax documents to prove that was jet starting pay in 1989 and a North London 3 bed semi came in at around the mid sixties sterling.

Let's put that together - three years beginners' pay at the time was equal to a London house and the price of a new 3 Series to park in the driveway. If I made the comparison with reference to prices away from the south east of the UK you simply wouldn't believe me.

We have to let people know what they're getting into these days.

Regards again,
Rob

scroggs

25th May 2005, 09:33

I'm sure I wrote a reply on this thread yesterday, but it seems to have disappeared into the ether - and I can't remember what I said. Ho hum - must be my advanced age!

MG there have been many threads in this forum discussing life at airlines wannabes have no chance of joining until later in their careers. They were relevant and remained because the questions were posed by wannabes in the first place - I have no problem with wannabes asking me, for example, what life is like at Virgin Atlantic. That's quite different from a guy with 6000 hours on A320s asking what his chances are at VS; that's a topic for T&E - and, as you will see if you look, I spend a good deal of time in T&E fielding questions about long haul flying in general, and Virgin in particular.

Another example is the BA DEP thread. BA's DEP recruiting isn't yet for ab-initio fATPLs, but it's getting very close, so the thread is relevant and stays.

As for the great Ts&Cs debate for new joiners to the business, it's pretty futile trying to lay the blame at any individual's or group's feet. The fact is that the vast expansion of the locost sector, and its philosophy of stretching every pound to its limit, is driving many of the changes that are particularly affecting wannabes. I doubt there is any action you can take to materially change this; it will have to wait for the market conditions to force change. By that I mean that if demand for pilots exceeds readily available supply, airlines will have to make it more attractive for you to join. What could produce such a situation? A combination of the reduction in Ts&Cs and increase in training costs putting people off from entering training, and a continuing increase in demand for the airlines' products - and thus need for pilots. I think we could get to that situation - I suspect that, once the money generated by the latest property boom has dissipated, there will be far fewer wannabes able to afford the money to go from scratch through to the end of a TR, yet I don't see any levelling off in the demand for flying. You do the maths! We may be a few years from this situation, but it is feasible. Only a change in recruiting policies will avoid a real problem, in my opinion.

As for Ts & Cs higher up the industry, they are generally improving - at least in Europe. My airline alone has seen a huge improvement in pay and benefits in the last 2 years. BA has to some extent gone the other way, but will have to revise its position if it's to attract the pilots it wants. The major charter airlines are also having to bolster their packages, particularly for senior training pilots and, as Rob suggests, the enormous expansion going on in the Middle and Far East will cause a drain elsewhere which will have to be countered - by improvements in Ts & Cs.

Scroggs

JB007

25th May 2005, 11:52

Interesting point Luke made, as a Turboprop F/O myself, is my next jet position going to be in competition with an OATS Grad or CTC Cadet ??!! Mmmm, honestly never thought of that one!

I like to have a browse through this forum, I also checkout Ts & E to read the odd "lifestyle" thread.....and yes, I can be accused of ignoring the modular/intergrated threads, but I also remember contributing to those once too!

I think Rob is correct to be harsh to all wanabees, it needs to be told how it is! It's changed in a frighteningly short space of time. When I started studying for my ATPL writtens, buying type-ratings was just not on the cards. By the time I was looking for my first job, it was in full swing! NYC still had Twin Towers and the low-cost market was just beginning to break but unknown to what extream.

I had a rough old ride to the glorious RHS, which actually resulted in a fairly big change of attitude towards this industry, the postion of flight crew within it It's fair to say that I think most Airline Exec's would run an airline without pilots if they could!!!and what I wanted to get out of it and what I think I can do about it as an FOD in 20 years time!!!. Don't get me wrong, I can't get enough of going to work, but wanabees need to be aware of just how it is and what it's really like to get to be in that position.

I got ripped off from a particular flying school, as did many others who were with me at the time, I also had a very tough time due to the standard of instruction, which naturally, resulted in me spendng more money. I keep an eye open for wannabees considering schools in this area and offer them my experience for the simple reason I would not wish anyone to go through what I went through. We actually could have really put the record straight last year with a large thread on this school but the student in question decided to back off when things got a little hot!

About a year ago, I accepted a job on a fantastic bizjet which was just too good to be true - in fact, it was! Very poor management and general bullsh!t mean't I had to be ruthless and move on - thankfully to exactly where I wanted to be and my first choice airline (thats not a pun by the way, I don't work for FCUK!). But doesn't that just show I would have done anything to get on the first job ladder? I'm embarrassed to admit it! But I became aware that a sniff of anything was worth chasing!

And I really don't wanna talk about what i've spent to get there!

Rob is correct, the first 10 years of my career is going to be spent paying back what it's cost me. I'm thankful I own property and in the South-East but if I didn't, god only knows when I would be in a position to gain a mortgage!

I would say you have got to really really really want to do this! It's the best job in the world but keep your eye's open and have a 100% soild idea of where you want your career to go and possibly with whom. Have a solid grounding of this industry, almost be a sad enthusiast. Know what your getting into when joining a company, spend some time reading Ts & E

My Dad, who flies for a living also, asked me a question about 6 months ago, when we found ourselves sat in the local with a few descent pints of Theakston's talking about this flight and that approach and that landing and that cabin crew! "If you know what you know now, would you ever have started"?

Mmm - nice one Dad!

Cheers
JB

Wee Weasley Welshman

26th May 2005, 07:26

Well I'll just shuffle in at this point with some rambling thoughts; if I may.

1.) This is the Wannabes section, anything too esoteric such as, say, direct entry command hours requirements will be moved to Terms and Endearment. There is a grey area for, say, current TP or FI pilots wanting to be Jet pilots. When threads of that nature come up then they may or may not be moved to Terms and Endearment. Its a call made by people with 17 other things to do today, jet lag and a Life that place PPRuNe semantics in a small box under the stairs with spiders in it.

2.) All are welcome. If your post or thread is moved its not an admonishment. Its simply a hastily made editorial judgement made by the people featured in 1. The people most welcome in Wannabes are those like Luke and Geezer who are past the early phases and thus have valuable feedback at their fingertips.

3.) Wannabes has 3 reasons for existing. Fraternity. Reality. Assistance.

We want to provide an imperfect 'place' where you can communicate with people doing and aspiring to what you Want To Be. Just being able to share your aspirtation and frustration is a relief in itself.

We want to provide a rebuttal to the marketing of the flight training and recruitment industry. They would have you believe jobs are plentiful, training is painless and opportunities lucrative. Reality is different and there are very few places where it is allowd to intrude. This is one of them.

We want to provide assistance by relaying the experiences of others who have gone before you. There is nothing a professional pilot likes more before embarking on a new route than to sit down for 10 minutes with another pilot who has flown it before. The tips the traps and the feeling of being forewarned and forearmed gives every professional pilot a very warm feeling.

4.) Thats about it.

The industry has turned a corner. I recall writing in Sept 2001 about how it would take 4 or 5 years for things to recover. Well its happened.

Hiring is going on at a furious pace and there is already a real shortage in the experienced market. A shortage of Captains today is a shortage of FO's tomorrow and that is very good news for Joe Wannabe whether they be 200hrs at OATS or 3,000 Piston hrs at wherever.

Good luck one and all,

WWW

Luke SkyToddler

26th May 2005, 10:50

Without disputing in any way the downward spiral of terms and conditions in the industry and the ludicrous debt load some of these people are taking on just to pursue their dreams, I do think it's kind of bollocks to compare first officer pay to multiples of London house prices, after the property-market madness of the last few years. Talk to most young doctors and lawyers and sharebrokers who have chosen to live in our great capital, and you'll find that they're in the same boat of having just graduated, and finding that their starting income is such that they will have to go renting for 5 or 10 years while they save up just to get the deposit on a mediocre 3-bed in London as well.

(All of which is yet another reason to not live in the $%&£ing Southeast of England. Last year myself and mrs skytoddler purchased ourselves our first house, a very comfortable 7 bedroom, 4 bathroom, 3 storey detached Victorian mansion right next to the seaside, up here in scotland, on the combined income of one turboprop FO and one minimum-wage flight ops assistant :ok: )

What I meant to say Rob, was that the most irritating part of all this incredible debt load being placed on modern wannabes, is that it could be alleviated by a few strokes of a pen in CAA house.

The price of an FATPL-equivalent professional licence in most other western countries outside of Europe is only £15-£20 grand, with a jet type rating maybe an extra £6 to £10 thousand on top of that. I think maybe the UK wannabe fails to realize, that standard practice in the rest of the ICAO world outside Europe is that you can convert your licence from virtually any ICAO state to any other, by the simple procedure of sitting the local law exam and carrying out a proficiency check flight. All your type ratings etc go with you as well.

Allowing the British wannabe to go and buy their licences / type ratings on the global market, instead of the artificially protected and monopolized local one, is not only just and fair, but with the way things have gone with the cost vs benefit analysis of becoming a pilot, right now it's the only solution I can see to maintain this industry even remotely accessible for the wannabes of the future who aren't the children of peers and industrial barons.

It is an absolute outrage and I am continually gobsmacked that wannabes continue to roll over and accept it so meekly. It is hardly in the best interests of the flying schools who are busy taking £70,000 quid wodges of cash off you, to apprise you of the facts that you could have had your licence for a third the price if it wasn't for some bureaucrat in Gatwick. That is where wannabes should be venting their frustration and targeting their protests, because experienced-pilot shortage or no, the lo-cos are a permanent feature of the airline world now and I don't think they are ever going to change their spots with regard to attempting to get their newly qualified FOs to pay for everything themselves and work for peanuts.

PPRuNe Towers

26th May 2005, 11:25

So you are saying drop the price to further increase the oversupply in a low interest zone where folks can take on greater debt and with the money they've saved offer to do the first couple of years as a paying guest in the right seat?

How many unemployed CPL's in Spain where the industry is a fraction of the size here. A thousand? Still it's sunny a lot of the time.

How many Australian unused commercial licences? Over 10, 000? The hoops serve a market function here and for much of the time have actually protected the chances of determined wannabees succeeding. Low interest rates and high equity has knocked it out of kilter recently. How many more loan defaulters before HSBC and other institutions call it a day?

Now that is a market correction that really will hurt the talented and determined.

Regards
Rob

Wee Weasley Welshman

26th May 2005, 13:00

Sure its cheaper in Oz/US et al. But then they don't ever ever ever get the chance to go from 200hrs to RHS Boeing/Airbus like happens here.

A great deal of self funded training for the last half decade has been funded through house price equity. Be it their own or their parents.

Thats probably drawing to a distinct close right now and this may have repurcussions. There is rarely a shortage of people wanting to train for a fATPL. Usually the financial barriers have stopped many. Spiralling houses prices have allowed mant to train. As this funding ends so might to enrolement of new students at flying schools. The desire will remain but the means will have gone.

Quite rightly so.

I've seen quite a few people wasting their own and usually their parents mortgages on flying training. At one point 3 out of my 4 IR students were all financed from house price rises..

Cheers

WWW

Luke SkyToddler

26th May 2005, 13:09

... or perhaps America, where for just about all of the last century the cost of training has been the lowest in the world, the flying schools are so massive that they're listed on the sharemarket, every man and his dog has a pilot's licence, and yet American airline pilots have historically had the best terms and conditions on the planet??

All right Osama bin Laden has done some real short/medium term damage to that situation, but they'll bounce back like they always do and leave European airline pilots looking on in envy yet again.

I do completely agree that the price of UK training is a huge barrier to entry that has helped to keep things here in the situation of only having mild pilot oversupply - say, twice the number of CPLs as there are entry level jobs. As opposed to some of those other places you mentioned, where the figure in a place like Australia/NZ is something closer to 10 or 12 licenced pilots for every job going.

But I guess you're right in one aspect of what you're saying mate, in that it hadn't occurred to me that if flying training was cheaper in Europe, people would only be queueing up to spend the money they've hypothetically saved, to go and offer to work for free at Ryanair for even longer - which is of course what they would do. Lemmings that they are :rolleyes: When it comes down to the day to day battles of new CPL holders trying to get jobs, and how much they are prepared to outdo each other in the work-for-free stakes and how much they are prepared to prostitute themselves to get a foot in the airline door, the British wannabe already leaves the rest of the world for dust :(

For example you'll find the occasional airline that requires you to buy a type rating down in NZ (at previously mentioned few-thousand-US-dollar kind of prices) but you won't find an industry like the European one that is riddled with buy-line-training or work-for-6-months-before-we-pay-you outrageous schemes like that.

What you WILL find, is the sad fact that the vast majority of people who take on a debt to buy pilot training down under, are going to end up paying off that debt by working in some other profession, because once they finished flying school that was it - they just never got the chance to start because they never got that phone call, their number simply didn't come up in the big pilot job lottery.

That is the harsh-but-true way of the industry all round the world and it's the way things are going here in the UK as well, just at higher prices. It just seems morally wrong to me that the price of buying that lottery ticket here in Europe is twice or three times what it needs to be, because some people in authority have determined that that is the way it is. Young people in their twenties who don't make it, despite their best efforts, are going to be saddled with paying for that lottery ticket until they're old enough to be grandparents.

At least if they only had to write off £20 grand down to bitter experience, that's only the price of that 3 series BMW you were referring to earlier, they might still have a hope of being debt free again in a few years. Whereas a £70 or £80 thousand debt accruing interest, is the kind of thing that's with you for life :{

scroggs

27th May 2005, 09:24

or perhaps America, where for just about all of the last century the cost of training has been the lowest in the world, the flying schools are so massive that they're listed on the sharemarket, every man and his dog has a pilot's licence, and yet American airline pilots have historically had the best terms and conditions on the planet??

Not sure that's really true, Luke. In the heady deays pre-9/11, a very few pilots at the top of the widebody tree in Delta, United and a couple of other airlines, attracted salaries in excess of $250,000 a year. For the average jock, a salary of around $100,000 was a more realistic figure. That's only around 55k stg (sorry, not on a UK computer!). In my airline, and a good few others in UK, $250k (120k stg) is a quite reasonable expectation if you have the time and inclination to make the dizzy heights of training captain - and that's not dependent on aircraft type, unlike US practise. A new captain in Virgin will make $160k (85k stg) basic. A seven-year FO, like myself, is on $100k (54k stg) basic. These are figures that are now just a fond dream for many US pilots - even the ones that are still in work! With most of the US majors in Chapter 11 protection, and with little prospect of that changing anytime soon - and with pensions not being funded in some - Ts & Cs in US airlines are likely to stay pretty poor for some time.

Despite the cost of living here, the returns in the higher echelons of the UK industry are still pretty good.