Long Live the Pig

[plane of motion]

What is wrong with the RAAF when we are due to retire the best combat aircraft the world has ever seen in 2010?

The F-111 is clearly the most capable aircraft to operate in our region to date. With the right amount of money and effort in the right places surely we could upgrade the F-111 to have a formidable Air to Air capability.

I give several reasons for this:

1. Thrust to weight ratio. It is clear that an aircraft boasting a top speed of over twice the speed of sound therefore has a thrust to weight ratio well in excess of an aircraft with a top speed on Mach 1.8 (Hornet).

2. Turn performance. I have it on good authority that the variable geometry wings of the F-111 allow it to sweep forward the wings in a turning engagement, and therefore maintain the offensive. An option clearly not available to the Hornet.

3. Cockpit visibility. The second set of eyes in the F-111 is something lacking in the F-18. I think that we should re-engineer the F-111 cockpit to have a large perspex section at the back so the nav can look out the back while the pilot looks forward.

4. Weapon loadout. Because the F-111 is vastly superior to the Hornet in loadout, it could carry many more AMRAAMS than the Hornet. The bomb bay could be used to store the ASRAAM and because they would be internal this would serve as a nasty surprise for anyone silly enough to merge with the pig.

5. Radar. Surely the AESA radar would be relatively cheap and easy to install in the nose of the Pig because there is so much room. I am sure it would be a simple case of basic wiring changes for installation.

6. Pilot capability. I have been reliably informed that spots in the F-111 community are highly sought after and that Hornet pilots rarely admit that the Pig was their aircraft of choice and they see the F/A-18 as a bit of a consolation. Therefore surely we need to be keeping the elite cadre of aviators at both 1 and 6 Sqn intact to ensure we dont suffer an air defence capability gap.

I dont know if people have strong views on this but it would be hard for anyone to change my mind. And I think anyone else who has read Dr Kopps articles would agree.

[OK 3 wire]

In reply to your post, firstly point 2. the B111 has a turn radius of a 747 jumbo, point 6. is absolute bull sh*t.

The B111 is an outstanding strike aircraft and should be kept in th ADF until at least 2020.

[Capn Bloggs]

Sucker Hole! Wind Up!:sad:

[mr hanky]

As regards Point 3: the perspex section would be unnecessary, since the combination of Points 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6 would ensure that the F-111 is always on the offensive with nothing to fear from anything behind it. :D

[Trash Hauler]

So when has this "most capable aircraft" been in combat (for Australia) to prove the claims of this somewhat out of touch with reality new to pprune poster?

[plane of motion]

Trash

Obviously you are an experienced poster, I can tell this from your grammar.

I was unaware that the value of ones post has a direct relationship with how many times one has posted!

But seriously the RAAF needs to start reading some of what Dr Kopp has to say. What other jet out there can carry that many weapons, as far and as fast as the Pig?

[Capn Bloggs]

Plane,

I think what Trash was alluding to was that most of your claims about the pig are utter nonsense, thats' all, which reflects pretty poorly on your credibility. Since you are a newbe, perhaps you didn't realise there are some aces here who can spot the furphies a mile away, even when they are behind them!

Check six!:p

[Runaway Gun]

An old Macchi 326 could turn pretty darn tight at 6G too. I suggest we get them back out there pronto, and glue a bit of carbon fibre onto the wings. They were also nice and warm with the canopy down - especially in Summer !!

[schnauzer]

Jeez?

POM, you seem to actually be suggesting that the pig be used for air to air? Due to it's turn radius and its great cockpit visibility?

Bloggs is right. This has gotta be a wind up. Either that or POM hasn't actually ever seen an F111.

[kmagyoyo]

Thanks for the best laugh I have had in ages :ok:

(love the bit about ASRAAMS in the bomb bay, should be real easy to get tone through 20' odd foot of fuselage).

[Capn Bloggs]

They were also nice and warm with the canopy down - especially in Summer !!
:{ :{ :{ :{

[Sunfish]

Plane of Motion, no truth in any of your post at all period, in addition, the F111 would be easy meat for the Sukhoi's going into service around this area.

I won't even start on the maintenance costs.

[Mr McGoo]

The Pig is very very good at: carry lots of bombs, a long way, at very low altitudes, at high speed, in bad weather, at night. It is a very good BOMBER.

The pig is not very good at dog-fighting, it has poor cockpit visibilty, a large radar cross section, poor air-air radar capability. It is a very bad fighter.

The amount of money required to convert into a decent fighter would be more than than the cost of buying an F-22. Not cost effective.

As for your point 6 - I can reliably tell you that the complete opposite is true. The vast majority of RAAF pilots who what to fly 'Fast Jets' have the F/A-18 as their first choice. To suggest otherwise is unbelievably naive.

[ANZAC]

I note that on the 15th of April, under the title of "Military experience for the Airlines" you gave your military experience as 1000hrs on FA18!! Now let's cross reference your obvious experience (must be at least a B Cat Hornet pilot) with some of the six assertions you have made in your original post :confused:

Now, I only personally know about six FA18 drivers. A quick poll has suggested that none of them harbour any secret desires to fly the Pig. Of my one student that is flying Pigs, his motivation was, as revealed to me, his desire to fly JSF as he thought that Pig drivers would be the first in line.

Therefore, I put it to you Plane of Motion, you must be winding people up! Hey, but then again you got me to respond:O

I apologise in advance for any spelling or grammatical errors. I am but a humblr pilot, not an english teacher :p

[Double Asymmetric]

I can't believe any of you saps took the bait.
Geez POM , you could have tried to be subtle...a little less worm on the hook next time?

[Chimbu chuckles]

I think the powers that be are re working the costs to make the F111 look untenable...it's a common management theme.

I have zero experience flying the thing but can't help but feel that the payload range of the F111 vs the technology available to the most likely recipients of an F111 payload in our region mean the aircraft is just as capable now as it was when it was new.

Indonesia is getting missile technology from the Chinese and Malaysia has Sukhois, which would run rings around our F18s until they ran low on fuel and then shoot them out of the sky as they broke for the tanker...An F111 load of smart bombs on a dark, wet season night would soon turn all that into broken bits and the owners would never know what happened.

Australia doesn't need a new, unproven stealth technology mega toy...it's just what the FJ boys in RAAF upper management want.

The old pulling our weight in a coallition is not a good argument either.

[Trash Hauler]

I'm still trying to get the hook out of my throat..............no wonder the grammer came out rwong!

I'm not an expert on combat aircraft however I have reasonable experience on ageing aircraft. The one thing money does not do is turn the tide on an ageing aircraft. It can slow the advance but not stop it. Not sure what the retirement plan for the F111 is but I read on the weekend that 2012 was the year for JSF. That would put the F111 at 40 years. That is one old aircraft to be maintaining so I can see why they are being retired.

[Di_Vosh]

POM, you wouldn't be related to Cessnadude would you? Very similar posts from him in aircrew notices about 6 months ago?

Very amusing post.

DIVOSH:cool:

[Love Monkey]

I much preferred the cessnadude windups. This punter has tried a little too hard unfortunately.
What is the point of this S***?

Santamymainman!

[scrubed]

Cessnadude rocked.

As for Sukhois, I wouldn't worry about them. Have you seen the way the Malaysians fly their airliners?

Does the RMAF (or whatever) have to employ ex-pat pilots for their knuck-force in order to get insurance, like the airlines around those parts do???

RMAF a threat for a well-trained force??? HAHAHAHAHAAAA.......!!!!

Also, where's their AWACS?

Where's their tanker force? (actually I'm firing from the hip on both of them, I hope they don't have any...)

Do they have AMRAAMs or something else gucci like that?

And as for the gun, they can't shoot straight. Remember when we were selling Steyrs up that way???

From my own experience working with Malaysians, Singaporeans, etc, they tend to wimp out when the going gets hard or too hot.

I like the bit about the heat-seekers in the bay. HAHAAA!!! Maybe strap a gun in there too as this is lacking on the pig but planet motion was too busy to mention it.

I think we should retain the pig as it is big, loud and cool. We need as many types as possible or the RAAF will not be as attractive as it might be to potential pilots.

And why not??? It's tax-payers' money which would only go on some sh!tty state school or an old folks home.

[Deaf]

As for Sukhois, I wouldn't worry about them.

They can get a tanker waiting for an F/A18 or F35 (if they happen) 400 mile off Batavia

Also, where's their AWACS?

Wheres ours

Do they have AMRAAMs

AA73 ?

The issue is - for most of our lifetime we have had the capability to destroy enemy/system/country/effectiveness 1000nm+ out. Even the scumbag who grovelled to them bought more pigs. Little F****wit wants to give it up for a fantasy that might happen or that may be late and degraded in RCS and range to mirage level (thats the way it seems to be going) and pay 300M for starters.

If cost of keeping the pigs going is a problem then the pensions of: RAAF*, Defence SES, Little F****wit would be a start.

[scrubed]

where's oursRight here, (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=840608&size=L&width=1024&height=780&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20YVXR%20%27Obrvat%20737% 25%27%29%20NAQ%20%28pbhagel%20YVXR%20%27Nhfgenyvn%25%27%29%2 0%20beqre%20ol%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=2) my man......

All the toys don't make a good force. Skills do, even without all the toys.

[Deaf]

quote

"Right here, my man......"

Sorry, I wasn't aware of our new serial sequence as per N3788C not even VH

[scrubed]

That's because it's not our new serial.

No need to be sorry.

But you don't make much sense.

[Deaf]

"But you don't make much sense."

So you claim our fully functioning AWACS will carry US civil rego - or aren't they ready with only a few years of bugs.

[scrubed]

Are you pissed? (like me......)

But who said they would carry US or any other civil rego??

The aircraft in those pics was photographed pre-delivery from Boeing. They have to have some sort of rego on it for test flights, they can't exactly use a VH- rego...

But I still don't know what you were on about with this:They can get a tanker waiting for an F/A18 or F35 (if they happen) 400 mile off Batavia

PS there is no such thing as an AA73 missile although the AA-11 Archer is sometimes known as the R-72 and R-73. But it is a heat-seeker and not really comparable to the AMRAAM right?

Hey this link (http://www.sci.fi/~fta/python4.html) will take you to a good article by some flying nerd who seems to know what he's talking about.

[Capn Bloggs]

Scrubed,

You ARE an angry ant, aren't you?

Do a google on "AA-73 Archer".

PS: Nice post edit.

[scrubed]

I did Cap'n Bogs and I came up with this: (http://www.designation-systems.net/non-us/soviet.html#_Listings_AA)

Check it out. The official beta on the AA-11 and R-72/3..... it's okay, no apology necessary!! ;)

The edit was in recogntion of Deaf's status as an old hand. I firgured he deserved more respect even if he IS pissed!!!! (like me...)

[MarkD]

The Wedgetail hasn't been officially delivered yet apparently, to be regoed A30-001 when it is. Thus says the caption from another photo (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/815810/M/) of the bird.

[Sunfish]

As this simple person understands it, the potential bad guys will have the electronics and fighters to see the huge searchlight beam the F111 terrain following radar makes about 2012 or something.

Apart from that, I've heard RAAF officers almost go into orgasms at mess night describing the joys of flying this incredible aircraft.

[Obiwan]

I like the bit about the heat-seekers in the bay. HAHAAA!!! Maybe strap a gun in there too as this is lacking on the pig but planet motion was too busy to mention it.

Doesn't the F-22 carry its heatseekers in bays? Didn't the F-111 have an optional gun in the bay until we put PaveTack there instead?

[GoNorth]

PS there is no such thing as an AA73 missile although the AA-11 Archer is sometimes known as the R-72 and R-73. But it is a heat-seeker and not really comparable to the AMRAAM right?

No but the R-77 is. Then you have R-27R, R-27ER, R-27EM which has a much longer range than the western Aim-7 or Aim-120. Then the IR family R-27ET.

The Pig would be blown out of the sky before it can even release a missile. Maybe Aus should look at the Su-34 for a replacement :}

[mr hanky]

Vulcan was originally fitted in the weapons bay till replaced by Pavetack/recce fit. As for missiles in the bay, it was originally designed with a trapeze arrangement to launch 2 AIM-9s, so it's not as silly as it sounds.


Bloody funny stuff PoM - quiet night in the back bar was it?

[gaunty]

My technical knowledge of these things is zero.

But as a follower of the War game scenario novelists like Brown, Coonts and Tom whatsisname, they still seem to think of the F111 as a formidable weapon when used for what it was intended. I only say this because it seems they have some seriously heavyweight advisors who know about these things.

In the context of our region, the economics and their originally intended role I suspect we need more of them not less.

I'm not sure that I subscribe to the military/industrial complex thingo and that we don't invent new things for the sake of it but it does seem to be a self fulfilling prophecy in so far as Australian defence is concerned.

Having said that, the F111 was nearly as far away in the future when it was ordered by Bob as the JSF or whatever it is called is now and was subject to the same development agonies I'm sure will plague the newie.

BTW what else have we got and my memory is a bit cranky on it that can take a photo of the offending Minister (Can't remember if it was the Prime one) reading his mail and sending it to him shortly/minutes later to make a point.:E

I don't but I'd gladly give up the left one to fly one, just once.:ok:

And I still reckon I would have a full blown :rolleyes: orgasm every time I thought about it afterwards.

I still have the razor sharp movie in my minds eye of a visiting F111 at a Pearce display departing TO to the north, cranked around as the wings folded to full aft, dot foot (feet is plural), flat chat back over the field M0.999 then a gazillion G pull up with wings coming out for a climb to CRZ and return to Williamtown.

That is class.:ok:

It made everything at Avalon look like a pussy cat, and I think it may even have been driven by one. :}

Long Live the Pig.

[tinpis]

Two landed in Darwhine last night and tin stuck his head out of his office to have a decko.
Nice.
Many moons ago was mates with one of the original Navs on the pig.
Lost touch last heard of in Gulf air anyone know where P**l McDon**d is?

[Buster Hyman]

2 things...

If it is still a worthy concept, why not use all those skills earned by building our own Hornets & do some "new build" F111's under license? Whack some updated software (preferably not from the Collins) and Bob's yer Uncle!

Also, what are those "bumps" on the engine cowling of the AWACS B737?:confused:

[Sunfish]

Gaunty, heard the same story about the fly-by of the grey sponge at Canberra to demonstrate the recon capability.

I think you guys are missing the point. As i understand it, If F111's continue to use the terrain following radar for low level flight, they will eventually get nailed because it is the equivalent of a huge spotlight in EW terms. the bad guys are getting more sophisticated EW stuff that can spot them.

I have a feeling there may be more to it than this, but i'm not going to speculate.

[mr hanky]

Being able to 'spot' the TFR is nothing new and hardly requires the latest in EW technology - although the TFR does have a very narrow beamwidth, so it's not exactly a giant spotlight getting flashed all over the sky. (There are also passive ways to fly low level IMC, if you're prepared to integrate the technology.) Anyway, it's been recognised for quite a while that low level is no longer the be-all and end-all, although there is still a place for it. Remember that when the Pig was conceived, no-one much had look-down shoot-down missiles or AWACS, so things have changed a lot.

The Canberra incident Sunfish and Gaunty refer to was in response to a particular element in the Defence Department pushing to get rid of the Pig. The boys found out which office in the Sponge was occupied by the offending party, did a bit of target study from a photo on the front of the Canberra phone book (or so legend would have it), and ran a simulated attack. The Sponge residents duly received a nice IR video with a set of crosshairs over their window and a countdown to impact of the simulated LGB...and the Pig stayed on.

[Obiwan]

The Canberra incident Sunfish and Gaunty refer to was in response to a particular element in the Defence Department pushing to get rid of the Pig. The boys found out which office in the Sponge was occupied by the offending party, did a bit of target study from a photo on the front of the Canberra phone book (or so legend would have it), and ran a simulated attack. The Sponge residents duly received a nice IR video with a set of crosshairs over their window and a countdown to impact of the simulated LGB...and the Pig stayed on.

A mate is a member of the Royal Aeronautical Society and invited me to a lecture on the Pig many moons ago. Couple of pilots flew a Pig down to YSSY for a squizz over and nice presentation. One of the highlights was the video from the 'Canberra attack' - they were quite proud :)

Other cool stuff was a photo of Brissie from many miles out - you could see the time on a clock tower, and IR video of aerial refuelling - you could see the tank filling up via its heat signature :ok:

Nice read for the proponents of the Pig here http://www.ausairpower.net/pig.html , I'm not clever enough to comment either way - I'll leave that to those here in the know ;)

[gaunty]

So if these graphs are accurate, why are we not refurbing those extra airframes we recently bought, I'm sure there are more airframes to to be had for a zillionth of what the JSF is eventually going to cost.:*

http://www.ausairpower.net/F-111-Payload-Radius-GD.gif
http://www.ausairpower.net/000-JSF-vs-F-111-1A.png
http://www.ausairpower.net/ALCM-F-111-vs-FA-18A-2A.png

[Wine Glass]

Goodness! What a convincing argument.

Because of course airpower projection is all about laughably simplistic, pretty bar graphs and sweeping platitudes based on a one-eyed take of open source material, as we all know. :rolleyes:

[Milt]

Buster Hyman

Under the bumps on the AWAC's nacelles are much enlarged alternators to supply the huge demand for 400 Hz stuff.

Incidently I found the F-111 delightfully easy to handle, goes like a rocket, has very long legs and could readily be re-engined to achieve supersonic cruise. One gets hot in the office around 2.5 Mach but you can't keep it going for long at that speed as the fuel flow is about the rate of the leak out of the parliamen house contemplation pool.

The recce piggies have near state of the art photo and IR sensors which should not be forsaken until we replace with something like the Global Hawk.

All told - still a superb irreplaceble high performance platform which could readily be retrofitted with the latest avionics to retain and enhance its potency. May yet have to do just that.

[Trash Hauler]

Re-engine or avionics upgrade can never be performed in a manner described as readily.. It is highly complex, costs a lot of dollars and ultimately the (F111) airframe is still 30+ years old. Maintainability and reliability are issues that are never quite addressed with upgrades. These are issues that are designed into new systems at the concept stage. They cannot be fully incorporated into upgrades due to latent design issues.

From memory the Navy are having significant difficulties with the Seasprite. A 30+ year old airframe being upgraded with engines and avionics. I don't think readily quite describes this upgrade. I suspect the same kind of scenario applies to an F111 upgrade of the same magnitude.

Really, it's like cramming BA Falcon GT systems into a GTHO. While technically it can be done, the benifits are only fully realised in the modern car. But just as the purists would not swap a GTHO for a BA Falcon GT it is the same with the F111. (GTHO is still faster over the quarter mile but the BA has a lot of other advantages).........................give me the GTHO any day.

(how's the grammer POM?)

[scrubed]

Doesn't the F-22 carry its heatseekers in baysYeah all the missile armament is carried internally but the missile requires guidance prior to being launched. Since the seeker head is inside the bay with the rest of the missile on the F-22, the boffins have obviously figured a new way for it to get a 'growl'. Aircraft mounted sensors I guess....

As for the gun in the bay, the bulk of the weapon is housed inside the bay but the barrel bubble is external and the eyelid opens when required for firing. So the "gun," itself, is really external which makes sense - no sense having your @rse torn out when you "get some"...

By the way, Buster, "building our own" Hornets was a matter of assembing model kits but I support getting more of them. Point em north.

Flying on TFR obviously requires a radar. Turning on a radio emission of any kind risks detection, even a RADALT. This is nothing new. That's why the RAAF pays the nav so much... to plot a track via places where no one is going to be looking for them.

And anyway Stunfish, you of all people should know the answer, at your level of aviation: How about using stick, rudder, mark I eyeball and airmanship instead of relying on all the fancy technology??? (Day VMC only....)

New systems on old aircraft.

Bad example: Seapsrite.

Good example: This one. (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=840608&size=L&width=1024&height=780&%20sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20YVXR%20%27Obr<br%20/>%20vat%20737%25%27%29%20NAQ%20%28pbhagel%20YVXR%20%27<br%20/>%20Nhfgenyvn%25%27%29%20%20beqre%20ol%20cubgb_vq%20QR<br%20/>FP&photo_nr=2)

Alternators = generators in airplane-speak. Same relative position on each engine is a giveaway.

Also note the RWRs sensors, heat-sensors, and 10000 other aerials including ball-frying surfboard.

Wonder if the crew will all start falling over after a while like the SeaHawk guys after having their nuts warmed for a few years or did "they" think of that this time......

Dale Brown\'s books bite. A clapped-out nav who can\'t let go of his "Nav\'s wet-dream" hotted-up B-52 which can out-do EVERYthing else in the sky at EVERY role.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:......

Stephen Coonts had the goods... until he got all weird and brought Jake Grafton back to life. Maybe he had a new ex-wife he had to pay for with another book.

[plane of motion]

Gaunty,

Nice to see the graphs getting a run!!!
Disregard the opinions of the operators and guys who actually know what they are talking about, take from a monash academic! Those graphs are awesome!!

Apaaaaaarently the 2 x F/A-22 option is significantly cheaper than the 4 x F/A-18 option.......lets just do a gross error check here............................hmmmmm

Can anyone actually swallow this shiiiite???

Considering the F-111 currently consumes in the order of 1/3 of the RAAF budget, it is interesting to think about where the RAAF COULD be now if we had not thrown so much money down the hole.

Do people know that Aussie Av magazine is refusing to publish any more articles written by the person responsible for those graphs.

[Trash Hauler]

AEW&C in a 737-800 Airframe, new build aircraft solves the structural life problems that are inherrant with an upgrade and certainly Boeing have done a good job of upgrading the 737 design throughout it's long life.

The Seasprite - not a good example? Sorry but it is the most comparable example (to the F111) of what happens when you upgrade a 30+ year old aircraft. Wasn't this the basis of the thread?

[scrubed]

Yes the Seasprite is a JOKE. Therefore it is not a good example of a success of this concept. I thought that was obvious....????Do people know that Aussie Av magazine is refusing to publish any more articles written by the person responsible for those graphs.I don't know. Ask them....

I wish they would refuse to publish most of the articles written by their own staff.

Especially "...from the airwaves". God that part makes me sick.. but I always go back for more. Why is this.. do I have an obsession like that ex Qwantas pilot who wanted to shut down all 4 in-flight??F-111 currently consumes in the order of 1/3 of the RAAF budgetYou just commissioned your own independent study, hey planet??? :rolleyes:

Anyway so what if it did??? Just tax the blue collar world a little more and choke off the bludgers. Also shut down the concentration camps and send 'em all back. This will fund at least another 2 aircraft.

We need more aircraft in the fleet and more types.

[Cessnadude]

First of all a big hello to my fans.

You'll be happy to know that I am now (in my humble opinion) a pretty awesome pilot, I can fly aeros within plus or minus about 20 kts and I never get sick... anyway enough about me.

POM, sounds like the megaleer needs a run???

What ever happened to my earlier suggestion (6 months ago) about turning the F111 into a tactical tanker - 5 external tanks plus all of that internal gas.......................

Anyway time to get back to my aeros endorsement, anyone know how to do a barrell roll??

[scrubed]

"plus or minus 20kts" of WHAT???

I would like to see you perform a loop within "plus or minus 20kts" or whatever TF you mean by that.

Have you learnt how to fly what some people believe to be a constant 1G barrel roll yet?


How about a sausage roll (a good one for you) - it's where you roll it over whilst hangin ya wang out of yr fly at same time.


Good to see you back Cessnatool. Funny how you turned up so quickly after being mentioned.......

[Buster Hyman]

Cheers milt!:ok:

scrubed I guess that explains the "Some assembly required" message on the boxes huh? Politics. Doncha love it!?!?

[plane of motion]

Hey there Cessnadude!!

You are my inspiration, how much fun is it seeing these dudes bite!

The megaleer was a work of art. Would love to get a copy, love those graphs!

[Milt]

scrubed

Did you choose that name because of something that happened?

Anyway abject apologies for the lax use of airplane-speak. I like to reserve generator for the DC types.

AWAC's nacelle bulges house 180 Kva Integrated Drive Generators.

The height of the radar antenna is enough to prevent the crew from being fried but that very height upset stability and control feel sensors somewhat and had to be compensated with a variety of fixes.

Now back to the pig whose unit flyaway cost way back in the 70s was only US$6.5 M. What a bargain. And do you think that 75 JSF will be any less costly than the F-111s to maintain?

[plane of motion]

Yes, I do think they will be less costly to maintain

[scrubed]

Milt.... Hahaha!! How'd you guess??

Hey I've been a capt for a while though so I guess it was bad judgement??? Maybe.....????

Anyway the JSF looks like a fagot airplane, compared to the pig which has manly lines and is probably louder.

Not to be confused with the old MiG-15 Fagot.

Hey maybe we can buy lots of old Fagots and kit them out with new donks and a glass cockpit. Buy about 500 of them, then overwhelm our enemies with sheer force of numbers. Like to see the ****s with their fancy helmet-mounted whatevers cope with that.


PS POM he means 75 JSFs vs 24 (or whatever) pigs.

[kmagyoyo]

Lets fcuk it all off and buy a bunch of P-51's and do doggers all day :ok:

ps have Hornet QFI's got nothing better to do than try and wind up their hard working Pig brethren?

[Trash Hauler]

scrubed - so the seasprite is a bad example because it is not successful and B737 is a good example because it is successful?

take the blinkers off.........seasprite is a good example of the difficulties of upgrading old airframes. The case for upgrading F111 must address all the issues, not just range and speed. Fast and far is no good if the plane is broke or the integration not reliable. BTW anyone have any idea how many F111's they actually get flying?

On looks alone f111 win's hands down!

[gaunty]

POM
Take it easy mate, I think I made it pretty clear a cuppla posts ago that my operational knowledge of these things is zero.

I put the graphs up because they represented a point of view and in the hope that someone would be able to educate me/us lesser mortals on the real goss.

I might not have been a military aircraft salesman but I was a pretty fair commercial one made easy for me by having the best product in the world:}

Contrary to a common belief unfortunately the life of an aircraft salesman is not spent totally on gladhanding, backslapping and generally having a good time in the expensive bars of the world.:{

It is mostly spent deep in the oppositions manuals and economics looking for the strengths and weaknesses and tabulating this against that for the whole picture. Personal prejudices, looks and noise or lack of don't cut it. :(

Several hundred moons ago another Govt Dept bought a civil type because a personal fetish for the particular type prevailed and then had to do a unique Australian rewrite of the POF charts and increase GW to get it to do what they needed.:confused:

I'm sure you have seen similar evidence in your world. :sad:

My question is why and on what evidence we changed tack and from out here apparently midstream when we (the Government and the people) had already been sold on, bought and were apparently embarked on refurb of the pig for service into 2020 as the most appropriate answer to our war arena.

The graphs seem to suggest that we (OZ defence establishment generally) were correct in the assessment of bang for bucks.

Again and contrary to a common belief, we in the commercial sales world were very careful to recommend no less but certainly no more than what the client actually required on the study rather than what they thought which was usually what their pilots wanted. Show me a pilot who doesn't want fancier faster and further, then show me a pilot who has to write the cheques for it. PS we used to call it "technical wine tasting" :)

In a perfect world with unlimited bucks we could all go and play with our dreams, (mine would be a corporate pig, howzat for bragging rights at the Yacht Club, in fact you've just given me an idea for all those pigs in the desert :hmm: ) but at the end of the day its bang for bucks and that includes the infrastructure support or lack of it and the total of the tape that comes with it.

http://www.islandnet.com/~pacific/pigs_in.jpg thats me on the left. :p

[Sunfish]

I wonder what the poor old RAAF are doing about turbine blade root fretting on those F111 engines these days?

In fact, I wonder how many spares they even have?

[Cessnadude]

Gaunty,

During the quiet hours at Bankstown when I didn't have any tail numbers to record into my Diary and the airbands were all quiet, I found 2 minutes to plot the B52 onto those graphs you so kindly posted! It's amazing, it is better than all of the other planes. I guess all you have to do now is put an AESA radar on it, give it some thrust vectoring and a bit of stealth.

Sorry I have to go, I can hear a 182 entering the circuit.......wow how cool is that!

:8

[aeros champ]

Hey scrubbed

What were you scrubbed from?

Can anyone answer this one for me..

If you get scrubbed of Navs course can you then apply to be a pilot? Is there a rule against this.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Anyone who quotes Carlo Kopp as an authoritative source is gotta be angling for a bite:yuk:
Does this count as one?

[aeros champ]

Most of those who doubt Carlo's knowledge and recommendations usually have their head buried so far into the operational world that they fail to see the broader picture.

Carlo's opinions should be heeded by those in Defence as his arguments are well contructed and well informed.

[kmagyoyo]

Aeros champ

Are you saying that the Guys and Girls who operate at the sharp end of the ADF aren't qualified to comment on the very machinery they operate :confused:

[gaunty]

Cessnadude

Last I heard they were doing something just like that with the B52.

My question is why and on what evidence we changed tack and from out here apparently midstream when we (the Government and the people) had already been sold on, bought and were apparently embarked on refurb of the pig for service into 2020 as the most appropriate answer to our war arena.

The graphs seem to suggest that we (OZ defence establishment generally) were correct in the assessment of bang for bucks.


Was a question not a criticism.:rolleyes:

I don't suppose you have anything constructive to add or is the Phoenix permanently stuck in the ashes.?

[aeros champ]

kmaygoyoyoyo (whatever)

you guys are more than qualified to comment on the operations and tactical employment of your aircraft. But all too often you lack the big picture viewpoint in terms of strategic direction and aquisitions.

We have recently aquired a new airframe type here in the west which was originally opposed by most of the aircrew, it has however turned out to be a more profitable and wiser decision.

[Gnadenburg]

The F111 certainly appeases all the Menzies like Indo-phobes!

Was having a whiskey with an Indon Air Force bar owner recently and he told me their handful of Flankers are radarless & weaponless except for a cannon and grease pencil targeting system drawn on the canopy. Evidently their American made fighters have had unservicable radar for a while too.

I think a little bit of their procurment budget ends up funding unofficial Indonesian Officers' Messes in profitable locations like Bali.

Perhaps it is timely to dump the F111, reinforce our battalions and make the Orion the long range strike platform.

Army/Orion combo may not be glamourous, but a more efficient means of killing terrorists than F111's.

[scrubed]

I keep telling you: Cash isn't a problem. Just plug some of the leaks to the multitude of bludgers in our society and funding will not be a problem.

Take a few pollies for a ride. Even the left-wing, peace-nik, pot-smoking, appeasist Dermocrat f***s will wet their pants if taken for a hack/flick/zoom in a Pig. Then cash will flow.

Somebody mentioned Global Hawks a while back. In my frenzy to issue smartarsisms as fast as possible, I forgot to say:

As far as I'm aware, Australia has committed to purchase at least one, possibly 2 or 3 of these machines.

Gnads, don't forget Air Warfare Destroyers and possibly a Helo Carrier on the horizon for the pussers. The carrier will supplement the Manura and Kanimbla nicely as a platform for armed intervention (bullying) amongst the islands up north. Got to keep these feral JI-style fanatic mo********ers from grabbing a toe-hold in the impoverished lands they normally target.

AerosChamp - 133 Pilots. If you get scrubbed from Nav Course and you started out as a Nav, you could apply for Pilots Course but since most Navs have already been scrubbed from Pilots Course, this is unlikely to succeed.

[OhForSure]

I was under the assumption that the 2x Aircraft Carrier order was a forgone conclusion??? The RAN essentially saying they WILL get them... With the USAF keen on the VSTOL F-35, I reckon the RAN stand at least a good chance of 25 odd VSTOL F-35s if the carriers come... I read that the carriers would fit size wise between the UK carriers and the US (non-super) carriers. Anyone know what the go is here???



miltz (or whatever it was)... thanks for that info on the Wedgetail engine bulge... been wondering what those were for quite a while!

[scrubed]

Yr jerkin ya gherkin, mate, those carriers (I thought it was only one) will be K-Mart style - probably old flat-tops re-floated from the shallows of Guadalcanal, and fitted by the lowest bidder. They will be the size of the James Cook ferry but they will be better than the ones our "friends" to the north have.

That's IF the leftists and commies in the Senate don't block the funds. (Do they have enough pull these days????) I don't think it's a foregone conclusion, by any means, but welcome the acquisition if it happens.... anything to keep the pox-ridden pussers from molesting each other.

I can't see F-35 VSTOLs being part of the deal, no matter how hard the pussers beat their meat. Too pricey. And anyway the pussers have forgotten how to fly properly. They can only do swing-wing these days. They lost the abillity to think fast enough for real jets.

Anyway even with the Harrier Junk Jet getting an autoland system for Vertical landings, these new machines will be a button pressing exercise that will have even the A320 pilots feeling like master pioneer aviators. No more Maverick-style face-splatting landings.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Whats the latest official Initial Operational Capability date being touted in Defence circles for the JSF? Note, thats not when you get the first one, its when they're operational. Given the schedule blowout in the program so far, and mooted rises in project costs, any wagers on the accuracy of current projections? (and why am I not surprised by any of this?)

[scrubed]

I don't know. All I know is:

I'm pissed and

You're using big dowrds like:

Initial Operational Capability date

WTF..............

[Captain Sand Dune]

We have recently aquired a new airframe type here in the west which was originally opposed by most of the aircrew, it has however turned out to be a more profitable and wiser decision

Really..........do tell! And I assume the new type was a Carlo Kopp approved aquisition.:hmm:

[kmagyoyo]

I was unaware there was a world renowned Air Warfare centre in Jandakot (no the 'Tom Clancy' section of the public library doesn't count) :yuk:

[Cougar]

I am with Captain Sand dune. CK rears his head again... and the crowd bows down before him. What the?

[Trash Hauler]

Maybe it was an upgrade to the C182.................you know new engines and avionics.......................even a new build airframe!

Must be abject terror for the indons facing new equipment like that!

[kmagyoyo]

Nah, heard it was re-build C152 areobats. Going to dazzle the Indos with his Aeros sequence :E

[Sunfish]

There will be no rebuilding of the F111 for one overriding and very important reason.......

Who wants to be posted to Bankstown, Newcastle or Melbourne when you can be posted to the U.S.? All those lovely allowances and foriegn holidays! :O

[Whizzwheel]

Why doesn't the RAAF buy some of those rear-firing aerial mines that I read about a while back - the US must have a few old ones lying around that could be fitted pretty easily? I hear they were very effective on the B-52.

Wouldn't that increase the pig's throw weight? Or does the fact that they go backwards mean that the TW is decreased?:confused:

[Fox3snapshot]

Statistically the most successful strike fighter in Desert Storm was the F111, with no loss to enemy fire in the highest density of air defence outside of central Europe. The F111F was the backbone of the coalition precision bombing fleet, outnumbering all other types equipped with laser designating equipment. This success is attributed to its combination of range, payload and speed.

:ok:

Yippee Ki Yi Yay!

[scrubed]

Yawn.............. :zzz:


That's old news.

What's it done for us lately? I say use them before the things run out of warranty. Someone's been making noise up to the north lately and needs a kicking to remind them who's boss.

This is why we bought them.

[Fox3snapshot]

You surprise me....the whole object of projecting airpower is for it to act as a deterrent, we shouldn't be promoting hostility :E

....and whilst the statistics on the Pig are old news, the B52's that trucked on through our airspace on a daily basis bombing to points east and west (and still do I might add) would be highly offended at the concept that the oldies cannot keep it up.

Respect your elders....
:p

[PPRuNe Radar]

Statistically the most successful strike fighter in Desert Storm was the F111, with no loss to enemy fire in the highest density of air defence outside of central Europe. The F111F was the backbone of the coalition precision bombing fleet, outnumbering all other types equipped with laser designating equipment. This success is attributed to its combination of range, payload and speed.

Statistics can tell so many things depending on your slant. 'Most successful' can be pitched many ways.

If it's total unit cost per aircraft, then the F111F loses - the F16 with LANTIRN Pod comes out at $22.6M compared to $68.3M for the F111.

If it's cost per sortie ... yep, it loses. $24.9K against $5.9K for the F16.

Average sorties per day per aircraft ? 0.7 for the F111, 1.2 for the F16.

Rate of lost or damaged aircraft per sortie - not the winner I'm afraid. F111F sits at 0.0011 whilst the winner is the F117 with 0.

It's a close second on the number of guided weapons launched though. 2,935 versus the 4,801 launched by A10s.

Number of unguided weapons launched, it isn't even on the radar. The Buff has the honour with 71,885. The F111F has 586.

Total tonnage dropped .. it's our old friend the Buff again. 25,422 tonnes whilst the F111F dropped 2,004, putting it in third last place (ahead of the GR1 and the F117).

Average tonnage dropped per day per aircraft record is held by the F15E with 2.71 tonnes against the F111Fs 0.71 tonnes.

And then at last we come to its winning category. The ratio of targets succesfully destroyed to those only partially destroyed or missed. The F111F wins this hands down with 3.2:1 - the nearest rival is the F117 on 1.7:1


The full figures appear in the NAO Report which can be found here

NAO Report Desert Storm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/gao/nsiad97134/app_04.htm)

Their conclusions show there is no one aircraft which stuck out as more succesful than any other. All performed well in some areas and not so well in others. So claiming the F111F was the most successful is stretching it unless you narrow it down to a single category.

The following appear to be the major points that can be drawn with regard to the issue of Desert Storm aircraft cost and performance. Comparatively, none of the air-to-ground aircraft examined demonstrated overall consistently superior performance across the measurable performance indicators. Similarly, no aircraft performed consistently poorly on all or most of these dimensions.

Neither single-role bombers, nor multirole fighter-bombers demonstrated obvious superiority compared to others in the air-to-ground role.

The data (in table IV.1) reveals no clear link between the cost of either aircraft or weapon system and their performance in Desert Storm. Neither relatively high-cost nor low-cost air-to-ground aircraft demonstrated consistently superior performance across a range of measures such as sortie rate, survivability, amount of munitions delivered, and participation in successful target outcomes.

The Ardvaark is still an evocative aircraft however :ok:

[Buster Hyman]

Not to mention the fact of complete air superiority in that conflict.