Delta 777 vs Jetty at LGW 20/5/05

[Bumblebee]

Understand a Delta 777 took out the jetty on stand 50M this morning....fair bit of damage to the No1 engine apparently.

Don't like to speculate, but...Is this another case of not realising the stand guidance and stop marker boards are seperate? I believe it's not the first time it has happened at LGW.

Secondly - given the AAIB recommendations in the recent report about a 747 vs a jetty at LHR - the emergency stop button issue seems to be relevant here too??:uhoh:

[Bearcat]

I dont mind 35kt crosswinds, cat 3 approaches etc, my biggest fear is doing a good job and then crackin a wing off a jet way. I am paranoid coming into stand....my F/O's think what the f is up with this guy....with good reason on my behalf!

[bafanguy]

Bearcat,

The most dangerous time to operate an airplane is from the time the main gear touches the ground until the main gear leaves the ground again.

Your concerns are very well founded.

[Out Of Trim]

Hmmm, a good question; if the dispatcher meeting the flight was on the Jetway; they could and should have activated the STOP button. Which would have alerted the Flt Deck by means of Bright Flashing Stop signs that can't be missed.

However, sometimes the Dispatcher does not arrive until the aircraft is already on stand if things are busy!

Mind you, the view from the Jetway is not that good; indeed the Stop Button and Jetway controls are on the terminal side of the Jetway so, the view is quite limited until it gets noisy!

Apparently the Jetway had to be lifted off the aircraft by a crane and is now U/S.:ugh:

[Jet II]

I had a similar incident the other year with an American operator at LGW - apparently some crew who haven't operated to LGW before expect the red 'STOP' sign to come on when they are correctly parked. In my incident an accident was only averted by the quick response of the ground engineer pushing the emergency tit by the guidance controls.

Pity the authorities cannot get together and come up with ome international standard for positioning lights on aprons.

[longstay]

just another example of how we in the UK are more interested in selling crap in the terminal than investing in the infastructure of the airports.
These type of docking stands are a national disgrace and airport owners / managers should be ashamed of themselves, they should all get out to ehhhhh, turkey to see how the latest systems work.

:mad:

[speed freek]

Quite like the ones in Dubai, foolproof........famous last words!! :}

[NigelOnDraft]

Hmmm, a good question; if the dispatcher meeting the flight was on the Jetway; they could and should have activated the STOP button. Which would have alerted the Flt Deck by means of Bright Flashing Stop signs that can't be missed. This assumes the British Shopping Authority bothered to install a STOP button in the Jetty.... as the B744 v Stand 127 at LHR showed, they didn't in that case... or rather had a program to install them that ran over the next X years (X being a large number).

Even after the accident at LHR, when the AAIB went back to see the "professional" modification BAA / HAL had made, they found a random button installed, confusion over which button did what, and the sign for the button "propped up" on the button - not even installed.

The AAIB report makes sorry reading, especially if you were the (presumably now ex-) Safety manager for HAL :(

[KiloMIke]

At LHR there is an emergency stop button next to the AGNIS lights at the head of every stand. My previous company made us wait there until the aircraft was safely on stand.

[Quickie]

Why oh why are they still using this system?

So far UK and Australia are the only places (in my company's vast network) that uses it. Surely Airlines would insist on the upgraded systems...cost of incidences (agnis-papa) on a global incident survey would be high.

biggest fear is doing a good job and then crackin a wing off a jet way. I am paranoid coming into stand!

Bearcat, I'm with you here.

[brakedwell]

Factors other than poor design can cause problems when docking. I was blinded several times by the late afternoon sun sitting slap bang behind the guidance system when taxying on to the LH stand a LAX.

[Flying Mech]

Anybody got pictures yet?

[MrBernoulli]

Quickie
I think you meant 'instances', not 'incidences'? Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[barit1]

brakedwell:

A properly designed system should take into account such contingencies. Thus, this IS a design problem.

[Joetom]

Many ground staff and some pilots think its ok for an aircraft to arrive on a stand with objects inside the box.

The lines were painted for a good reason, if items inside the box, stop the aircraft, I find items get moved quick, even quicker if aircraft blocking a taxi-way.???

[KiloMIke]

Joetom I am with you there.

I am also suprised at the number of pilots who jsut drive onto the stand wether there are lights on or not.

There are some stands at LHR with new style guidance systems that count down the distance for the pilots and then display 'STOP' when the aircraft has reached the appropriate mark.

[Rollingthunder]

There is a new landing system for VTOLs or helos landing on ships that uses GPS and some very complicated maths. Just push a red button and the aircraft will land itself on a pitching and rolling ship.

You'd think that for all the time aircraft have been pulling up to gates that a foolproof method for stopping, not dependant on human beings other than the pilot stepping on the brakes, would have been developed.

[apaddyinuk]

Well I saw the damage myself on Friday morning as I was being bussed to my aircraft! Two cranes had been brought in to life the airbridge away from the engine by the looks of things!!!
Something similiar happened to me a number of years ago when I was driving an airbridge in DUB and an Aer Lingus A330 came right for me!!!

[6_DoF]

Please Guys read your Jepp plates it state very clearly in the procedures. Unlesless C/o decided to hand over to F/o in which case distance might could expain. Dare I say it.

[abra]

Why do we always have to have high tech range finders;AGNIS lights which can't,for some reason,be left switched on all the time and are therefore dependant on the dispatcher's arrival;or two markers that are suposed to be read simultaneously even though they are miles apart etc....The whole mess is the result of design by committee meeting in bright neon lit rooms.
How about a low tech system..useful to the pilot for much more than just coming onto stand... something that would let you could see the centre line..see what's around the plane for efficient push backs ..see the cargo doors closing..see the engines are clear/still there/on fire etc..get a feel for the traffic behind you.WHY DON'T WE HAVE A CONVEX MIRROR nailed to the terminal.
'Corse you'd have to have someone with an oily rag to give them a wipe over every now and again.(but the committee would probably have a fan blowing a piece of old towelling a la the truckie's mirrors...then the fan would not be left switched on all the time,or the towelling would break off and be ingested as FOD..no forget I mentioned it..AGNIS is wonderful!)

[TheOddOne]

AGNIS lights which can't,for some reason,be left switched on all the time

We used to leave ours switched on all the time and the reason that we spent a fortune making them switchable is SOME pilots took the presence of a green light as an assurance that the stand was safe to come in on, even when it was the WRONG CENTRELINE and there was a GPU in the way!

One particular a/c did this on a left line instead of the centreline, struck the GPU with the No 1 engine and ingested the chocks that were resting on top of the GPU. Very messy, thankfully no-one hurt.

Now, the dispatcher must check the stand is free of obstructions, check that the correct centreline is going to be switched on for the a/c approaching the stand, only then activate the guidance. That's why you have to wait on the taxiway for the person with all that knowledge. I know it's a pain when there aren't enough dispatchers to go round, but it's safer that way, believe me.

We have a number of stands with mirrors, but they only really work for smaller a/c sizes and stands, not for the big ships.

We've trialled some of the laser/radar ranging stand guidance systems in the past but weren't satisfied that the then technology made for a safer system than AGNIS & PAPA board, even with their admitted limitations. Now the more modern systems are coming up to an acceptable standard, we will in the course of time be adopting them. It's not something that can be done overnight. In order for the system to be reasonably fail-safe and resilient, each unit needs to be linked to a central control with an overview of all aircraft arriving and ensure only the aircraft that has been assigned for that centreline is given guidance. This has got to work every time, not only on a nice day, but when it's snowing, low vis, raining hard, in the middle of the night. Not easy.

BTW, AGNIS & PAPA will ONLY work from the left seat. Many a/c only have a tiller on the left side, anyway.

The only system that we provide that will work from either seat is the mirror, if it can be seen from the right seat. Some large a/c are now being fitted with cameras so that the nosewheel position can be seen. The A340-600 was the first I saw with this, but I think some newer B777 have it, also. If you want paint marks put down to see with a camera, just let us know!

Cheers,
The Odd One

[Desert Dingo]

Lasers, radar, cameras and mirrors ??
Technology overkill !!
I remember going someplace years ago where the docking system was the lead-in line painted on the ground and a horizontal flag pole thingy with a length of hose hanging off the end. You drove down the line and stopped when your windscreen touched the dangling hose.
Seemed to work OK, and no batteries required.
:ok:

[Few Cloudy]

Some very true comments here. There but for the grace of God etc.

I have always been irritated by the myriad of methods for parking at different airports - different taxyway nomenclature (inners - outers / A1 A2 / New Scenic / Bravo / Follow the greens etc) - different docking systems (Bolds / Mirror / Hanging pole / ground lines / marshaller / you name it)...

You even get different parking methods at the same airfield.

Just imagine if every airport (motto - " we know better") had a different approach system and different runway lighting system - it took ages to agree on a standard approach slope indicator.

You arrive at a field after a tiring flight and then have to rummage through sheafs of non standard ground procedures. Even well prepared pilots (and we all are aren't we) have problems in this phase.

For God´s sake let's get it standardised - a worthwhile job for the unions.

[PeePeerune]

hey, just a thought but this was a 777-200.what if the pic was looking at the parrallex stop board and lining up on the 777-300 mark!!!.

now this would mean the nose gear coming up further on to stand but because of the reduced length of the -200 between nose gear and intake cowl compared to a -300 then this would allow the intake cowl to hit the jetway.

just a thought .......................

[bvcu]

this aircraft went past the position for a 777-300. the bridge was parked in the proper position which gives adequate clearance for all types using that stand,personally think that the previous threads on unfamiliarity with the system might be valid as apparently he wasnt slowing down at the time of impact so was probably waiting for a stop signal !

[Jet2]

Well said Joetom. Agree totally.

Aircraft seems to be in the hangers to the south of the terminals as there was a Delta 777 tail poking out of the doors yesterday. Ironically, the guidance system on our stand was broken when we arrived :rolleyes:

[Airbubba]

>>I remember going someplace years ago where the docking system was the lead-in line painted on the ground and a horizontal flag pole thingy with a length of hose hanging off the end. You drove down the line and stopped when your windscreen touched the dangling hose.<<

Yep, Cairo had something like that a few years ago, worked fine and compared to more 'modern' systems, easy to intepret.

A few fatal ground accidents have prompted much better taxiway signage in recent years, how many jetway crashes will it take to get better guidance to the stand?

The pictoral 'laser' system in Dubai is actually pretty user friendly for me.

Was it Stansted that had the flourescent tubes that you had to somehow align with one of several aircraft types? Seems like you had to look one way for left and right, another to see where to stop.

Mirrors are OK but always seem to get dirty or misaligned after a while. Also, you have to be sure to find the right mark for your aircraft, if the paint is still there.

[EGAC_Ramper]

Interesting reading and shocking to find out that this is quite regular ocurrance.

I do know at Belfast City they have an AGNIS that fires a laser out to the aircraft and then counts down the distance til the stop bars,this being visually seen by the crew.Also has to be said however on a few occasions even then pilots have gone past this and had to then be pushed back so as the air bridge could fit properly onto the aircraft.


Regards:ok:

[FullWings]

I had a bit of a wakeup parking at LGW a few months ago.

Long, overnight flight from the USA; rain at the airport and just getting light. Must have been thinking about the drive home because I correctly identified the stand (5?M) but proceeded to follow the wrong set of yellow lines. Half way round the turn we all realised this at once and I was able to jink back onto the correct centreline.

It would have been quite easy to stick a wing into the aircraft next door as I was driving a 777 at the time and there was one in the next bay. Not a lot of clearance to play with.

I agree with the previous posters that getting from the end of the landing roll to putting the brakes on at the stand is becoming one of the most incident-prone parts of aviation, even at airports you are a frequent visitor to. EWR or ORD in the snow, eeek!

[Right Way Up]

Good points made earlier in the thread. Is it not about time that the BAA wake up at Lgw and standardise the parking guidance. And at the same time can you get rid of those bl00dy speedbumps!

[Leezyjet]

Funny that just this week in Skyport, there is an article in which the BAA claimed that there wasn't a problem with a/c hitting buildings or any problems with parking airside !!!.

I would say that over 50% of the stands in T3 at LHR have incorrect stop markings, if any at all and despite numerous calls to the BAA they do nothing about it. The poor tug drivers have to guess where to park the a/c on some stands. The APIS system is also usless in the snow and is forever breaking down the rest of the time. Alot of stands now have no clearway between them so the Dispatcher has to take a guess as to whether the parked equipment is in the way or not.

Can't understand those E/stop buttons on the jetty tho. Waste of time as you cannot see what is happening at the other side. Time it takes to walk up from ramp to jetty isn't exactly long but it's much safer being able to see everything. Only safe place for the E/stop is at head of stand as in T3 - although some of them could be better placed.

Kilo Mike,

I know what you mean about a/c pulling on with no lights on. Had one who decided to pull on and park with lights off and STOP sign clearly flashing whilst 3 guys trying to push a broken down vehicle out of the way - just missed them and the vehicle with the No.1. Had another sail past the allocated stand and found themselves in a cul-de-sac with only one Dual use stand free (not compatible with their a/c type) so swung onto it anyway just missing the wingtip of a 737 by inches and the other wing was in the stand clearway.

:)

[frangatang]

You can see the love and care the BAA give to their
jetties at lhr.Have a look at the rubbish strewn along the jetty at your next arrival/departure.Thats because the lazy ba''''''ds only clean them twice a week at most. Perhaps they are just getting the newly arrived tourist acclimatised to the litter strewn highways they are about to encounter when they leave the terminal!

[Who'stheDaddy]

LHR / LGW are both dumps.
Their is FOD / equipment and all sorts of s**t of every stand, most jetties are old, camera's dont work, windows dirty and some emrgency stop signs consist of a perspex slide behind that dirty window.

I also thought that A/C should not enter the stand until it is safe to do so.

Handling agents should train dispatchers to do a proper FOD check, ensure the stand is clear of equipment and make sure the airbridge is correctly parked in its proper position. So many staff mistakes have caused accidents.
If stand is blocked call airfield ops
More importantly they should have enough staff to ensure that the Dispatcher is out on the stand before the A/C arrives to make sure this is done (only exceptions - last minute stand changes).

The airport authority should:
1 - invest in the right technology or at least what they do have installed is operational

Provide adequate parking for all ULD's and equipment.
Fine Airport users for parking incorrectly. However that is a catch 22 as the building site that is LHR has no space.

Another case of a company to interested in saving / making money than spending it on safety and customer needs!

WTD

[Nopax,thanx]

This'll be the same BAA that has yet again just announced record profits.....:rolleyes:

[ATIS]

Yep, and its the same BAA that proudly opened up the new pier at LGW. Did you know that its got a bridge and everything!!! + + brand new SHOPS.

Hurry up and refurbish LGW south terminal cos its a DUMP