Help with a routing please ...

[ABO944]

Hello All !

Just after a bit of advise please.

I am planning a flight between Fairoaks (EGTF) and Bristol (EGGD) IFR in a twin.

I have flown out of Fairoaks a few times before, but not IFR, and always to the South!

Here's my question ...

I want to route to the North-West of Fairoaks to join airway L9 by Compton. Which way is best to route? Obviously I need to stay out of the way of Heathrow being so close to the North.

With Compton being quite close to Heathrow, would I have problems joining the airway at FL80 or FL100 with those big boys on Compton departures climbing slowly?

Any advise would be very welcome!:ok:

[bletchleytugie]

Phone the Flight Briefing Unit at Heathrow (020 8745 3111), they are the parent unit and will able to offer you some advice.

Regards


Bletchleytugie

[Not Long Now]

When you're ready for the off, the boys or girls at F oaks will call TC for a joining clearance, presuming you've filed a flight plan along the lines of TF-CPT-L9-GD, requesting say FL80.
TC will issue a 'standard' non clearance of remain outside CAS call 134.12 or whatever and release subject Farnborough.
TF then call Fborough who will probably elect to give you a service after departure and get you pointing in the right direction before you call TC for your joining clearance (probably on track CPT climbing 6000/80) Fborough may have nothing in the way in which case call TC after departure.
In that case probably best to perhaps position yourself a little to the north of Fboro and well south of WOD tracking west to start with as direct track CPT will indeed put you nicely into the heathrow departures or indeed approach if it's easterlies.
Alll you then have to do is watch all those big whizzy things shooting past every window as they overtake you going west.

[ABO944]

Thanks Not Long Now:ok:

Thats great!

Now I know what to expect!

Thanks a lot!

ABO

[Flyin'Dutch']

Don't necessarily expect to fly the planned and accepted route!

[Chilli Monster]

Do you need to join airways?

Why not TF - BLK 3000ft initially (obviously remaining below the TMA), followed by BLK - BRI climbing beneath the TMA eventually to FL60.

Less miles, less hassle, continuous radar provided by Farnborough, Lyneham and Bristol.

Got to be easier :)

[ABO944]

Flyin'Dutch'

By how much could it differ then?

Could I be given radar headings most of the way, rather than the airway?

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Also, what about the routing on the way back?

Would it be best to take the same airway back to CPT, but then what happens after CPT ? Would I get radar vectors towards Fairoaks, or have to route in from the south due to Farnborough, Lasham, Blackbushe etc etc ?

Thanks in advance!

:ok:

[Chilli Monster]

Routeing on the way back is actually easier, as you'd be GD - WOTAN - CPT then no doubt descended and passed to Farnborough for the inbound leg to Fairoaks,

However - what are you flying? Standard joining level at WOTAN is level at FL90 (not climbing to, due to Bristol/Filton inbounds being at FL80 by WOTAN) and if you're a slow climber (and in these circumstances 1000fpm is slow) then you're going to get in the way of other, faster traffic unless you get vectored a long way out of the way to gain the height.

[Flyin'Dutch']

By how much could it differ then?

Never flown that particular route but in my limited experience (which is mainly towards the continent from the midlands) I find that I am doing well if I reach the first waypoint on the flightplan.

Anyway saves time not having to stick the entire flightplan into the GPS.

[ABO944]

I'll be flying a PA34 (wow!) So, perhaps I would need to do a bit of a "round the houses" before joining the airway at WOTAN ?!

So coming back into Fairoaks sounds a little easier than the outbound leg!:D

Thanks a lot for the replies !


ABO

[DFC]

ABO944,

Just a small related query. When you were doing your IR training routes, did you do any routes similar to this i.e. join from an airfield in class G or was everything done inside controlled airspace?

The reason I ask is that it seems that an important part of the IR sylabus could be missing especially considdering that for many, the first post IR rating flight could one such as this.

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Chilli,

Less miles, less hassle, continuous radar provided by Farnborough, Lyneham and Bristol.

Got to be easier

Not to mention no slot times.

Regards,

DFC

[2Donkeys]

It never ceases to surprise me that people routinely emerge from what is, by common consent, one of the tougher IR training processes, lacking the ability to file basic airways flightplans and to determine routings. Similarly, the lack of familiarity with basic IFR procedures when operating to and from non-IFR fields is widespread.

This is not intended as a criticism of the original poster - but this kind of fragile knowledge seems to be widespread, particularly amongst schools who do little more than coach people through their IRT by flying and reflying the 2 or 3 common test routes.

2D

[Spitoon]

ABO, you do have an IR don't you? ;)

[ABO944]

Yes I do have an IR ! (Got my licence last week through the post and want to fly some new routes to stop the rust setting in!)


I agree about the training process. When training for the IR, you only fly the routes which you may take during your IRT. Good in a way, but of course this limits your experience a tad !

I thought by doing a fairly busy / complex route such as near to EGLL, would give me a boost of confidence and keep those skills sharper than flying out of Exeter or the likes.

DFC - I flew out of controlled airspace during my IR.


;)

[FlyingForFun]

It never ceases to surprise me that people routinely emerge from what is, by common consent, one of the tougher IR training processes, lacking the ability to file basic airways flightplans and to determine routingsAh yes, but we are taught to fly a near-perfect hold so that ATC can't tell from the radar trace that it's not being done by the auto-pilot, which is far more important.....! :rolleyes: ;) :D

I have to agree... I've just finished my IR, and I'm following this thread with interest. My IR did take me outside controlled airspace to Blackpool, but since Blackpool itself has ATC they provided a RIS and arranged our joining clearance for us as we left them. We never went into a field which didn't have ATC. No criticism of my instructors, who were excellent, but maybe of the syllabus itself?

In fact, I suggested to my IR instructor that the syllabus could be changed so that the test is split into two parts. The first part is flown in the aircraft, at the home airfield, and consists of the upper airwork including engine failures, a hold, a non-precision approach and a precision approach, and that's all. The rest of the test, I reckon, should be flown in a simulator. Candidates should be presented with an airways chart for somewhere in the world, and given a route to plan. Doing it in the sim means it can, quite literally, be anywhere in the world, so it would not be possible to learn the routes as we currently do. IR candidates would have to be taught how to plan a route from scratch, how to fly a SID from the plate rather than from memory, how to handle ATC sending you to a reporting point you've never heard of, etc.... all those things which are likely to happen in the real world.

Any thoughts???

FFF
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[cavortingcheetah]

:) I have to agree with the comments about the training syllabus.
You probably are unprepared for the real world and that is not your fault.
I would suggest that you relax. ATC will probably pick up on the fact that you are somewhat inexperienced and should be kind to you.
You could always file for a lower cruise speed than normal. This would give you more time for reflection. Fly the route beforehand from an armchair with a cold beer for amusement and work out the sort of curved balls that could come your way. Especially, make a mental note of the possible radio and navigation frequency changes which may bombard you. If you are still worried, then find someone with a degree of experience to come along and do the radio work for you. That is apt to be the hardest or most labour consuming aspect of the entire flight.
Good luck. If all else fails, just ask for a steer. On a route like that, if you are not busy then...you've forgotten something but that's nothing that FREDA won't take care of.
:O

[ABO944]

cavortingcheetah...

Thanks for that.

I was planning to take a friend with me, who also has an IR.

Although i'm expecting it to be a busy little route, it will be good experience and I will then plan another one, perhaps up to Northern England or Scotland.

I hope to fly at least once a month, twice if I can afford to, but rather than just doing a couple of ILS's somewhere, I would like to fly a route, followed by a R.V ILS or NDB - a proper flight!:D

[bookworm]

It never ceases to surprise me that people routinely emerge from what is, by common consent, one of the tougher IR training processes, lacking the ability to file basic airways flightplans and to determine routings. Similarly, the lack of familiarity with basic IFR procedures when operating to and from non-IFR fields is widespread.

There are three groups of pilots:

1) Those with ops departments

2) Those without ops departments who fly routes

3) Those without ops departments who fly locally or only on routes that are so well established that they don't need to know how to make new ones

I think group 2 is small. The training issue might well be that the IR instructors move from group 1 directly to group 3. They have little practical experience with real-life routing.

[IO540]

It's the same problem with the IMC Rating. One is taught certain things but not the real issues in going places.

One could say the same about the PPL for that matter. For some curious reason, this is rarely questioned.

It is possible to get these ratings and come out knowing how to do a real flight from A to B, but it will cost a lot more money because it will involve more flying and a lot of the extra flying will be relatively uneventful. It will be a lot more fun though - just like real flying!

I know pilots who have paid for that sort of IR training but it's rare and I've seen it done only in cases where the pilot was the aircraft owner, the IR was an FAA one, and the instructor was freelancing (probably paid cash; also I don't think one can easily do a JAA IR whole with a freelance instructor). If one is paying school rates, one can easily double the budget if one wants to come out with the ability to fly to real places.

And no flight training outfit wants to double their price list all the way down.

I have no experience of UK airways but I gather that a lot of IR pilots don't bother with them while in UK airspace. It is too much trouble and one often gets shunted around all over the place. So they file IFR flight plans (say going into Europe) which get accepted even though the UK portions are in Class G or D.

Statistically, flying around IMCR-style, below Class A, is just as safe. I've done about 400nm today, 90% under RIS and all outside CAS. Zero hassle; just sitting there with the autopilot and turning the course pointer to the next track at each waypoint.

[ATCO1987]

Chilli Monster- EGTG INBOUNDS FL80 WOTAN? Confused. I was aware that WOTAN was for outbounds, and inbounds came in via ABDAL as they do at EGGD???

So as for the Fairoaks one, joining at CPT, should it not be CPT DCT ABDAL DCT BRI? Unless of course you prefer to take the BLK idea ;). But standard routings to EGGD from the east are CPT ABDAL BRI :).

Dan.

[Chilli Monster]

Chilli Monster- EGTG INBOUNDS FL80 WOTAN? Confused. I was aware that WOTAN was for outbounds, and inbounds came in via ABDAL as they do at EGGD???

Part slip of the keyboard, part tired, but all common sense in a way.

Not all arrivals arrive via ABDAL. It's possible to have the aircraft routed tactically along the airway centreline towards MALBY/WOTAN/BADIM etc etc as it's cleaner technique to put the aircraft on the centreline from the north rather than taking it through and then bringing it back on from the south, especially if Bristol have stuff inbound from the north (you have to see it on radar for that to make sense ;) )

Anyway - it doesn't matter where on the airway that is. That traffic still has to be 80 or below, so the 90 "level at" is because of this to ensure separation in case you can't get further descent through Lyneham.

The end result is still the same - light aircraft trying to join at WOTAN can still struggle and so cause the odd problem.

[Flyin'Dutch']

FFF,

Although the FAA test is one piece only and flown in an aeroplane (as opposed to your suggestion for a 2 part exam; one on a sim) the rest of the format is very much as you suggest.

Examiner can dish out anything he or she likes, including route, approaches, sequence etc.

[FlyingForFun]

FD,

In theory, it's the same here. There are no set routes. It's just that there are so few airfields with instrument approaches which have enough spare capacity to do practice approaches that there aren't very many options of places to go that are within a reasonable flying distance. Even more so when you consider that somewhere either on the way there or the way back you've got to leave controlled airspace to do the general handling (not sure how you'd explain to ATC that you're going to do some unusual attitude recoveries in the middle of the airway.....)

Towards the end of my IR course, when I'd done all the "common" routes enough that I pretty much knew them by heart, my instructor had me fly to Liverpool in the sim. Apparently, one student had been taken to Liverpool for his test a couple of years previously when the examiner fancied a change. The problem is the airspace, though - the detour to get out of controlled airspace after following the SID makes the test extremely long, which is why Liverpool is so rarely used.

FFF
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