WestJet and Zoom

[jumpy737]

Heard today that WestJet is kicking the tires over at Zoom looking to buy them. They are looking at shoring up their charter market and looking to feed into the transatlantic stuff. Interesting if it's true....;)

[hibypassratio]

Have you get a link to a news story or press report?

[WJman]

I think the only deal we will see here is ZOOM using WJ's 737-800's for charter work instead of bringing in Excel airways 737-800's as they did last winter. I'm sure WJ can offer a better price since they are Canadian based and have all the infrastructure in place, as opposed to Excel being based in the UK. I would think this is where the talks lie and not buying an ailine that is run exclusively to provide seats for GO travel direct.

[jumpy737]

I would disagree. The contract in place for Transat is just that, a contract. In a couple of years Transat could replace WestJet with their own equipment or contract it out again to another company. A situation with Zoom would ensure that WestJet has a steady and expanding charter business for some time to come. The situation at WestJet would be pretty grim right now without the Transat flying and the income that it provides. The last quater's loss would have been much deeper and future profit share would be diminished. WestJet needs to show growth over the long-term for shareholder growth and employee moral and I would think they would be looking at these kinds of mergers to keep the growth going. There isn't much more growth within Canada and the transborder growth has only been good in select markets. The only way to grow within Canada is if WestJet gets a smaller plane to provide feed from smaller markets. So far Clive has said publicly that this will not happen so the question is how do you grow. You either grow independantly or you aquire other companies and sometimes the latter makes more sense.

[WJman]

Westjet is well on it's way with the ETOPS program. They may have 180 mins by October if all goes well. I think before buying a charter airline, absorbing all it's employees and structure they would first try it on their own, with their own equipment and people. Buying a company like ZOOM would go against all Westjet's corporate philosophy. Like I said, if they've been seen together it's because their discussing charter flying. Don't forget Jet'sGO was doing a lot of flying for Go Travel direct, someone's got to replace them.

[System of a Down]

I heard Westjet is going to dump all of its non-Transat flying. If Westjet's offering its service to all of Canada's tour operators, who's the winner? Westjet. If Westjet offers its exclusive service to its main contract - Transat - not only will Westjet benefit but so will the tour operator. Having Westjet do much of its charter flying will be a huge benefit to Transat from a customer service perspective (leather seats, more legroom than any other charter operator, LiveTV, etc.).

[CGTSN]

WJman,

You may have meant SG was doing a lot of flts on behalf of Sunwings instead of GTD? Or is GTD also used them to operate their flts before Zoom came in?

Transat group renewed its contract with WS and also some flts (from transat tour ops) to Carribean are operated on AC a/c's for this summer.

TS only have 14 a/c's and it can't fullfill the seats that TH and WOV are selling. And ain't a brilliant idea to use a widebody if the a/c is half empty on some canadian departure cities.

TS won't renew their fleet starting in 2008 to get a/c's gradually replaced in 2010 if i am not mistaken.

[Rosbif]

When Westjet gets a pilot's union (and they will one day), I hope that they remember the pilots who were laid off from TS as a direct result of the contract with Westjet.

Fat chance.

Question:

Why would Westjet go to all the trouble and expense of getting ETOPS if they were not going after the Transatlantic work that Transat and Zoom are now doing?

If they do any Europe work, it is with Transat's blessing. They would not risk upsetting their best customer. Are they going to operate 73's to Europe during the off peak seasons? It sure looks like it. Any other reasonable explanation?

Next question:

How secure is a job at Transat if Westjet wants to do all of their flying?

[CGTSN]

...Not stable at all...

Rosbif, you should also includes mechanics, cabin crew, crew skedulers among others who are also laid off with the TRZ/WS agreement. We were told this agreement was done to fly out of smaller cities that a widebody can't fill in, so instead of loosing market, they decided to use WS. And remember TS doesn't have much aircrafts left : only 14 now (compared to 21 back in 2001).
So to fullfill the demand of the transat tour ops they had to find another alternative.

But we had all noticed they also operated out of our main gateways ( YUL YYZ YVR) while on the other hand we had people being laid off...WS is way cheaper to operate than a TS crew+a/c.

The union told me that they don't own the company so there' s nothing much to do except adding clauses into the next collective agreement.

There were still some pilots on lay off in april, i don't know if they have been recalled for this summer. Unfortunately a bunch of them left to get a more stable job in the middle east. Can't blame them for that but we lost good people who were great to work with.

[in limbo]

Kind of funny after you guys got a new contract with more money etc, Transat turned around and laid off employees and reduced flying.
Just goes to show how little power unions seem to have. Well at least in this case.;) :hmm:

[brucelee]

in limbo.

I don't see what's so funny about one company steeling jobs from another. I sense you work for a company that doesn't have a union. If so, that would explain everything.

[CGTSN]

In Limbo,

If you were in our shoes, you will know how it feels to live with uncertainity. Even though we got a little raise on our salary it doesn't pay bills when you are on E.I and seeking for another job in the meantime you're waiting to get recalled....only to work for summer time then lay off again for about 7 mo. in a row if you aren't willing to move temporary to another base if your seniority permits.

As an example, some of my colleagues who were YYZ based, had to go to YVR and YUL so they could work. But what do you think of the ones who have a family, a house? They can't be as flexible as a single person.

So an union can be helpfull in some ways but on the other hand they aren't the ones who decide whether or not to lay us off, it's the company.

Like in any company,profits have to be made.

[jumpy737]

For the people at Transat, it's either going to get much better or much worse. While the contract at WestJet is a contract it could at some point turn into an agreememnt where WestJet does ALL the flying at Transat. Is this stealing? No, it's business. Unless you can bring your cost down to the dreaded non-union level you have to consider the possibility of there not being an Air Transat airline division in the future. WestJet is in a business to show profit and growth to the shareholders just as TransatAT is in business to do the same. In order to do this they have to either grow internally, buy other businesses (as this thread has said), or expand existing agreements. This isn't stealing. When I was at Jazz the writing was on the wall for many years that things would always be fought between Jazz and mainline in fact the company played one side against the other. This is what will happen when it comes time to getting a new contract at Transat. The empoyees aren't in charge of business decisions. The Air Canada unions learned this the hard way. Unions had their peak in the late 90's when they were controlling the business decisions of their companies and look at where we are now. So for the employees at Air Transat who expect the situation to get better I would think you should hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

[brucelee]

Yep. I can see it now. Westjet will do all the flying in Canada. Even Air Canada pilots will have to accept Walmart wages and benefits or succumb to Clive. Westjet pilots will fly widebodies afterall. And the WJ pilots won't feel bad because, they had nothing to do with the deal, Clive conquered it all and they'll just have to live with it.
Jumpy737. I do agree to some extent. Transat's management is partly to blame as well. It just reinforces my thoughts that this industry is changing for the worst. All the while, airline employees are losing what was once a good income, secure job.

[in limbo]

Hey fellas.
I was really just stating the irony about the situation with regards to the contract.
I don't know the exact salary figures but an fo at transat makes close to what a captain makes at westjet (Salary).
I am not saying there is anything wrong with the transat salary BUT look who has the jobs in the end.
It is business guys and gals. Just business.:(

[Sailboat]

Yeah, 11years of commercial flying and two seperate companies with ALPA and all the big wages got me was layoffs and debt. Now WestJet has me with the house paid off by age 31 and money in the bank. With a union, the big dog eats, when he's done, the rest get what's left. I'll take my fantastic schedule, great pay, and excellent vacation at WestJet over any f#%king ALPA driven company. WestJet Pilots Asscoiation has a very democratic process in place for ensuring our future compensation and ensuring the health of our company.
As for considering WestJet pilots 'theives' of Transat Flying... consider the big dogs at Transat, consider what happened at a union meeting union years ago when you were voting for slightly less to keep some of 'your bretheren' employed and what the Big Dogs said.. 'let them be laid off'. I'll bet you didn't return the ALPA protection money to those people did you?

[CGTSN]

jumpy737,

couldn't agree more with what you wrote.I do prepare myself for both scenarios knowing that 2008 will be the renewal of TS fleet... or maybe not... I guess we will have to wait and see. Again ain't the employees who choose...

[in limbo]

Glad to here it is working out for you Sailboat.;)
I hope for a call from WestJet so I too can have some democracy, stability and have fun again.:ok:

[brucelee]

Sailboat. Great success story. I don't mean to diminish it, but is your salary's success not dependant on the success of your stock? I hear that the guys that got in WJ in the early days beacame very wealthy beacause the stock was going up and up. What about now that the stock has levelled off? Is a guy hired now-a-days going to enjoy the same money. I doubt the stock will ever be what it used to be. But you never know I guess.

[System of a Down]

Rosbif, you should also includes mechanics, cabin crew, crew skedulers among others who are also laid off with the TRZ/WS agreement. We were told this agreement was done to fly out of smaller cities that a widebody can't fill in, so instead of loosing market, they decided to use WS. And remember TS doesn't have much aircrafts left : only 14 now (compared to 21 back in 2001). So to fullfill the demand of the transat tour ops they had to find another alternative.

With all due respect CGTSN, your co-workers were not laid off because of the Transat/Westjet agreement. Your co-workers were laid off because of the after-effects of 9/11. Transat was losing millions of dollars and your company didn't know when that would end.

Laying off your co-workers, retiring some older aircrafts, and contracting Westjet was the only way to guarantee the survival of Transat and Air Transat. The current agreement between Transat and Westjet has been extremely beneficial to both companies.

But we had all noticed they also operated out of our main gateways ( YUL YYZ YVR) while on the other hand we had people being laid off...WS is way cheaper to operate than a TS crew+a/c.

Westjet is doing flying that Air Transat either couldn't do profitably or couldn't do with the size of aircraft it operates. It doesn't matter whether Westjet operates out of YYZ or YLW, as long as the route is profitable for your parent company, Transat, that's all that matters.

I would assume that Westjet will be doing some transatlantic flying for Transat to smaller destinations that Air Transat can't serve profitably with its 310/330 fleet. A 737-700/800 is not going to replace an Air Transat 310/330 on YYZ-LGW, so I don't think there's going to be anything to worry about.

If you are so upset with Westjet doing Transat flying, why aren't you asking your company why Air Transat isn't growing internationally? Do you feel that as Transat and Westjet grow closer a possible interline/codeshare agreement could be put in place? Westjet could feed its transborder/domestic flights into Air Transats international network and vise versa.

[CGTSN]

I am not upset at all, i am just tired to be in the unstable part of the job.Don't get me wrong, i love my job and i am pretty dedicated to the company i work with.

I find it amazing that while we have the people and the a/c' s to operate routes from our main gateways, we still found ppl on lay off, this is it....And out of our main spots we can fullfill the a/c's.

Lay offs were part of the 9-11 and the SARS, thank you, i was in both and i heard that speech before too. But TRZ group made profit in 04, they said it was a terrific year while some of us were on lay off statut.... Thank you for the cost savings and for the WS agreement.

( IMHO if we really want cost saving, let's save on paper and introduce e-tkt and reading any memo directly on a pc instead of spending so much $ on paper/ink.:p)


In any case, i just told my thoughts and in no way i am angry towards all of you. I love what i do and only hope for more stability for all of us and actually say : yes i have a job longer than a summer season....

To answer your question, i also thought of an inter-agreement between both companies. i.e : WS bringing pax to our main gateway and TS operating international flts but i doubt it would happen if WS is getting ETOPS to fly overseas. I guess we will have to wait and see.

[gumbi]

As I have posted before, but can't seem to find anymore so I can copy and paste....

To all of you who are worried with the fleet size at AT, all you need to do is to compare the hours flown per year vs when the L1011s were around and you will realize that with 14 planes we fly as many if not more hours than before... the difference is that instead of operating 4 different types, we now have 2 types, hence the need for fewer pilots... so to those who think that the layoffs were due to the WS agreement, think again...

Don't forget that there was a 15% increase in effective stick time since the last contract, so the increase in salary was hugely compensated by that, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if our csm was close to or even lower than WS's considering our stage lengths!