Clarification on USA flying?

[MichaelJP59]

I know that the rules are a lot stricter for flying in the US now and you need an M1 visa for flight training.

As a student PPL though, can I take an "experience flight" with an instructor in the USA having entered on just the usual visa waiver?

Presumably there would be no argument about me taking a flight as a passenger in the same light aircraft so where is the line drawn? Is it if I am taught anything?

Thanks for any help.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Pleasure flights are OK, as are flights if you have an FAA license or need a BFR.

Training flights are subject to the visa and TSA regulation.

[B2N2]

To whom TSA rules apply

All aliens/foreigners who apply for training.

Now, what is considered "training"?

What is training? – training that a candidate could use toward a new airman certificate or rating.Especially Instrument rating and Multi engine rating. These rules do not apply for US citizens. Therefore the flight school has to obtain proof of US citizenship (U.S. birth certificate or U.S. passport)



So, NO backgroundcheck is required if you come to the USA for:

* BFR (Biennial Flight Review)
* IPC (Instrument Proficiency Check)
* Rental checkout
* Aircraft rental
* Hour building

Hope this helps..
:ok:

[MichaelJP59]

The reason for asking was that I'm heading to Las Vegas for a few days and quite fancied doing a bit of sightseeing from the air.

Anyone know any schools in the area I could contact?

Thanks...

[englishal]

Difficult one....!

I would say that YES in theory visa / tsa would be required. My reasoning is that as a non PPL holder, the instructor would have to log the time as Dual given, as he would probably be operating outside of his or her licence privileges by taking you as a fare paying passenger. As he must log it as dual given, you are in theory receiving training towards a licence or rating......

If you're there in July / Aug I'll take you for free if you want

;)

[QTS]

My understanding is that there is an exemption for air experience flights - I've had an hour in a Stearman and an hour at Jack Brown's in Florida without a visa. If that wasn't the case I'm sure companies like Warbird Adventures wouldn't be advertising in the UK magazines.

[david viewing]

I asked Phil Boyer (AOPA US) recently if there could be any simplification in the requirements for foreign nationals stemming from his discussions with the new head of homeland security.

Here's the reply, from Woody Cahall, VP Aviation Services, AOPA which they have kindly given me permission to copy here:

Dear David

Phil has asked that I respond to your questions and concerns since I have been working with this issue for some time and often hear from members like yourself. I can clear up some confusion by being definitive in what the new rules are and how they affect your situation. Regrettably, much of the information concerning the current state of confusion between INS and TSA rules is correct.

The recently added requirements of the TSA Alien Flight Training Rule, combined with the requirements of the INS are in some cases redundant, burdensome, and even intimidating, as you mentioned. To clarify whether or not a student visa is required, the INS implemented new rules in August of 2002 that require an academic student visa (F-1) or a vocational or nonacademic visa (M-1) before pursuing a course of study, this includes aviation courses of study. In addition, the INS rule further stipulates that any alien entering the United States on a B-1 or B-2 visitor's status visa is prohibited from enrolling in a course of study.

The lack of correct or complete information available from FSDOs and flight schools is largely caused by several iterations of changes to the definition of exactly what constitutes "flight training" that would fall under the "course of study" definition, along with the TSA's inability to effectively communicate the information. This is especially true for members that are based in other countries. We have discovered that, even though the INS rules have been in place for nearly three years, it wasn't known by many pilots until the Alien Pilot Rule was issued. And, flight schools were previously not required to check an airmen's INS status.

With regards to consequences if the new, or previous, requirements are not met - we have not heard of any violations being issued. To help alleviate any misinformation, AOPA has stepped in to educate pilots by developing an online resource in the form of AOPA's Guide to the TSA Alien Flight Training / Citizenship Validation Rule. You can view this, in plain language, at http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/. AOPA also understands the burdens this rule places upon foreign pilots, particularly those who hold current FAA certifications and wish to upgrade their credentials during the course of their visit to the US.

Although we have successfully persuaded TSA to make some changes and clarifications that help alleviate some of these burdens, we have not yet been able to develop remedies for all of our foreign member's concerns. We continue to pursue all opportunities but it is unlikely that we will return to a pre-911 environment in the foreseeable future. It is also unlikely that we will be able to gain special TSA/INS consideration for US certificated foreign pilots in the near future.

As you might already know, because of AOPA's efforts, the new TSA rule does not require vetting for all flight training. It only applies to an alien candidate who is seeking a sport, recreational, private pilot certificate, instrument rating, or multiengine rating.

TSA has taken the position that these types of training substantially enhance a pilot's skill, and therefore they have become a focal point for the agency's threat assessment. Further, we have no indication from the INS that their "course of study" definition requiring an M1 or F1 visa would be applied to flight training in categories other than those listed above.

Please be assured that all TSA and Homeland Security activities targeting general aviation are high on AOPA's agenda and, although the continual changes in leadership of those agencies create challenges, we will continue to pursue changes that are important to members like yourself. We should see improved momentum as we again go through the steps of developing working relationships with new Chairman Cox and others.

I hope you find this information helpful. Please feel free to forward any questions or comments you may have in the future.
http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/

[SR20flyDoc]

Clear,

Yesterday, the embassy advised me to come over for a B1-2 VISA ( 130 Euro ) with info about the flightschool ( one of the largest multi engine training ops ) and a B1-2 might be allright :confused:

This large training school doesn't want anything with I-20's etc.....
:{ So, because this school is TSA approved it cost me already $ 130 for a TSA screening I canb not use. That's the burden AOPA is talking about.....

S.

p.s. Thinking about SA, flight to U.S. already booked

[MichaelJP59]

The whole process has become amazingly bureaucratic now. Even the "plain language" guide referred to above is over 10,000 words.

And it all seems so misdirected. Surely now, anyone even 1% as suspicious as the 911 hijackers would be spotted straight away by any flight school, visa or no visa.

It must be an incredible burden for the flight schools.

BTW thanks for the offer, englishal, but I've already been to Vegas and come back. Hoover Dam looks spectacular from the air:)

[S-Works]

So someone wanting to get an FAA licence on the back of there JAR licence to go and do some private flying would need all the visa and TSA stuff?

[2Donkeys]

No Bose-x

No Visa is required in order to have an FAA certificate issued on the basis of an existing ICAO PPL.

However, should you wish to train to add, for example, an instrument rating on your "based on" licence, then you would need to go through the M1 process.

2D

[MLS-12D]

The whole process has become amazingly bureaucratic now.Yes, I agree. Personally, I don't know why anyone would put up with it ... America is far from the only game in town. It has great weather, facilities and prices; but so do Australia, Canada, N.Z., and South Africa. And all of the latter can provide instruction that, on average, is arguably superior to that available in the USA.

Support the Commonwealth! Remember, we came to Britain's aid, voluntarily, in two world wars ... that's a lot more than the Yanks can say. :ugh:

And it all seems so misdirected. Surely now, anyone even 1% as suspicious as the 911 hijackers would be spotted straight away by any flight school, visa or no visa.A few other points worth noting:

(1) as mentioned above, there are many places in the world where one can obtain pilot training. Preventing a would-be hijacker from pursuing a PPL in the USA does nothing to stop him from training elsewhere;

(2) the skills learned to obtain a PPL(A), or an IR, or a helicopter rating, etc., are not really necessary to take control of a 767 and fly it into an office tower;

(3) the petty restrictions do nothing whatever to screen out the native-born American psychos (e.g., Charles Bishop (http://reports.tbo.com/reports/bishop/)).

It must be an incredible burden for the flight schools.
I'm sure that it is, but the politicians don't really care about that. It is much more important that they be seen to be "doing something".

[MichaelJP59]

the skills learned to obtain a PPL(A), or an IR, or a helicopter rating, etc., are not really necessary to take control of a 767 and fly it into an office tower

Very true - 9/11 was more about a failing of imagination i.e. no one who was in a position to do anything about it had imagined it possible that a group of people had both the will and the ability to do such a thing.

The excuse trotted out now for the many draconian restrictions in freedom since 9/11 is that anything is justifiable if it can prevent a terrorist event.

[MLS-12D]

The excuse trotted out now for the many draconian restrictions in freedom since 9/11 is that anything is justifiable if it can prevent a terrorist event.Agreed, with one small correction: the excuse trotted out now for the many draconian restrictions in freedom since 9/11 is that anything is justifiable if it
might, maybe, in the remotest possible circumstances, prevent a terrorist event

[Bluebeard777]

It only applies to an alien candidate who is seeking a sport, recreational, private pilot certificate, instrument rating, or multiengine rating.


Would adding a glider rating to my FAA ppl require a visa? It's not mentioned.

Or a seaplane rating likewise?

The added skill is hardly likely to make me a bigger risk.

[2Donkeys]

Sadly, the answer is yes. Any course of training with the objective of adding a certificate or rating to an existing licence comes under the M1 requirement.

2D

[MLS-12D]

Bluebeard777, here is my unsolicited opinion:

(1) Canada is a much better place to to learn float flying; and

(2) Europe or Australia are better places to learn gliding.

[Bluebeard777]

MLS, adding a FAA rating outside the USA is subject to the same security requirements, as far as I know ......

Only the visa is avoided.

[OVC002]

Why is a candidate for a Multi-engine Land rating - 10-12hrs flying and 3-4 hrs ground instruction - entitled to an M1 visa? The basis of which is seemingly enrollment on a full time course of vocational training.

The INS define full time as a minimum of 18 hrs per week and 1 semester (whatever that is).

[MLS-12D]

Bluebeard777,

I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that you have a non-FAA pilot license. If you add ratings to that license, it is a relatively simple process to have the added privileges added to your FAR §61.75 certificate.

[Bluebeard777]

No MLS, I just have an FAA certificate. Seems quite enough hassle just to keep one licence up to date, BFR'd, medicalled, etc.

And I spent a lot of time in the USA on work-related matters.

But now, if I get a visa to do some rating or other, I wonder whether I can also do, on the same trip, other activities such as business meetings etc that I would otherwise be able to do legally on a trip within the visa waiver scheme. Or must I make a dedicated trip where my only activity is flight training for which the relevant visa has been issued?