Aircrew Hmmmmmmmmm!

[Stax]

Noticed during some of these threads that many of the Aircrew have an opinion that they are "Pilots first and Officers second"

So the topic today is "Aircrew, do they need to be commisioned"?

Lets see:

You need A levels to be an Officer/Pilot, many SAC Techncians have A levels.

Officers/Pilots train at Cranwell, NCO Aircrew also train at Cranwell.

Groundcrew technicians have been used as rear crew (Sentry, Herc etc)

The Army have SNCO and JNCO Pilots and aircrew.

Ergo: Make all pilots SNCO's and all rear crew (inc Navs) SAC crewmen. Therefore even with flying pay we save the defence budget a small fortune! Hoorah.

(Currently donning Kevlar and ECBA)

[500days2do]

Pray tell...when did grd trades become crew in the real sense of the word....ie a/c unable to get airborne due to lack of............?

Less than 500days2do...thankgod !!!

[maxburner]

500etc,

That was a pretty dumb comment. Jets don't fly for long without the help of the groundCREW. Great bunch, if my memory serves me well.

[KENNYR]

Who gives a "flying f**k" what rank the aircrew are or what rank the groundcrew are!!!!!!!!! As long as the job gets done, whatever that job is. Teamwork will always get the desired results without all this willy-waving. There are good and bad in all organizations, and thankfully the good overshadows the bad in most cases.

[Hugh Been'ad]

"when did grd trades become crew"
surely they beacme "crew" when they became ground crew. I don't think the aim of this thread is to discuss the airCREW and groundCREW divide, but its also not to widen it. GroundCREW are a huge and pivotal part of flying and without them we wouldn't be able to fly our aircraft. Comments like "when did grd trades become crew", I feel, are not appropriate.

[truckiebloke]

think the topic that stax should be starting is ' is stax bitter and twisted and too long in the job!? '

ground crew are an essential part of the 'team' and everyone has their part to play - starting the rank argument is not wise really, and as for saving money... have you thought that the politicians who cut the budget, swan around in their flash cars getting paid stupid amounts and getting thousands in expenses... stax,there is the money for your cba...

[Stax]

Sorry Truckie bloke

No jeously intended, re read my opening. Its the Aircrew in these forums that mention "Pilot first Officer second". If thats the case then pi55 off to civvy street where you won't have to be an officer at all, leaving you to be a pilot all the time!

PS: 27 years in and have worked with some superb crews of all services and airframes both at home and on ops, so don't assume anything!

[rivetjoint]

Ok...back to basics here....what's the difference between an Officer and airman which originally made it necessary for pilots to have a commission?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Pray tell...when did grd trades become crew in the real sense of the word...

Air Loadmasters were originally drawn from the Supply trade.

[Flobadob]

If flying were difficult, RAF Air Traffic Controllers would have to do it.

..........I'll get my coat;)

[Stax]

OK Rivet joint, I'll fall for it ...................... What is the difference?

[rivetjoint]

I don't know, that's why I'm asking. What is it about being a pilot that means you must have a commission?

[PileUp Officer]

I’ve heard it stems from having to be commissioned in order to be able to drop nukes.

But that maybe a load of rubbish?

[airborne_artist]

What is it about being a pilot that means you must have a commission?

Do really think that the Airships would be happy letting an NCO go off on his/her own with such a hugely expensive bit of kit? Who would supervise them? What if they had to make a diversionary landing - how could they possibly be trusted to make a good first impression and shake everyone firmly by the hand?

[rivetjoint]

Ok soooo...

Required Property 1, an officer knows how to shake a hand firmly, an NCO doesn't.

RP 2, When in the air an aircraft increases in value, by so much that you must've read The Times before you joined the Service to operate it.



:D

[The Helpful Stacker]

Do really think that the Airships would be happy letting an NCO go off on his/her own with such a hugely expensive bit of kit? Who would supervise them? What if they had to make a diversionary landing - how could they possibly be trusted to make a good first impression and shake everyone firmly by the hand?

Or worse still, what if they did it better than one of the Cranwell's comissioned finest?

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Most pilots I know don't give 2 hoots if they are an officer or an NCO.

Pay me enough, treat me well, give me the authority to do my job, and you can give me any rank you choose.

I joined to be a pilot. The RAF told me I had to be an officer. I don't know of anybody who applied to be an officer, and were told they had to be a pilot.

Rank and authority are often confused on a flightdeck.

[raytofclimb]

I was told on IOT that NCOs were prevented from being pilots and navs when we first had the nuclear capability, as mentioned before.

They apparently only wanted Commissioned Officers to have the responsibility to drop buckets of sunshine.

No reason now why it can't change back.

Ray

[airborne_artist]

Or worse still, what if they did it better than one of the Cranwell's comissioned finest?

How was this handled in WWII, I wonder? I suppose that the simple solution was to commission all those who a) survived and b)"fitted in".

[mgdaviso]

If we changed it to allow anyone to fly then we wouldn't be the only one of the three services to send our officers into battle before our men/women. :hmm:

[Flobadob]

Exactly why I joined.

Any force that sends its officers out to die first gets my vote. That's why they get flying pay and I don't.

[Tonkenna]

Who cares as long as the right people are in the job. Of course, there in lies the problem:hmm:

As for what rank I would do the job as... don't care (my rank hasn't changed for many, many years anyway), just let me fly, and pay me enough to keep the CSA off my back and enough that I don't have to leave to join an airline.

Tonks

[cazatou]

We still had NCO Pilots and Navigators in the late 60's, some of whom were still in their 20's.

The original decision that aircrew should be at least of SNCO status was made on the grounds that they would operate over enemy territory and were liable to be captured if shot down.

Those prisoners of JNCO rank or lower can be put to work under the Geneva Convention. SNCO's can only be made to supervise.

[MaroonMan4]

Oh dear gentlemen/ladies,

I fear that you are forgetting a few very important aspects of the officer Corps.

Leadership - I hope that Cranditz, Sandhurst and Dartmouth all still require, expect and develop leadership. As we all know any monkey can fly in CAVOK in peacetime. At war, transition to war, in attrocius weather conditions, in far from ideal environmental conditions, and with no hotel in sight - then this is when the officer earns his money.

A cockpit, a formation a flight will all require leadership.

I am not saying for one moment that the NCO community cannot lead, but officer selection identifies those at an earlier age that have the potential to lead (hence young officers get a platoon, flight or Division).

The NCO's rely on experience to obtain/develop their leadership potential which may take extra time, hence the LE, SD, upper yardy ex-ranker career path.

And I hope that just having A Levels isn't the only quality to become an officer, or being able to read the Times - I hope that the selection process is far more mature and well rounded than that (I for one was on an intake with a Cambridge Grad and a genuine extremely intelligent bloke, but absolutely no common sense or flexible approach to problem solving)

So before it de-generates into an Officer/NCO thing - not worth it. We all know we need the young officers, selected at an early age to lead, and we all know we need the NCOs that bring measured experience and guidance to the young officers. In today's Services there is so much scope for NCOs to hop across onto the officer line (if they have the proven ability) and officers to step off the career line and become the senior mentors in flying suits.

I dares say that when we run out of officers, we will just either employ NCOs or promote them (look at the number of ex-AAC NCOs now holding down important jobs and Staff posts in JHC HQ and key positions in the AAC because it farms all of its Direct Entry officers off to 'career' jobs outside of the flying environment and there are not enough AAC officers to go around.

But the age old question....do we all need to be officers? For example in a formation of 4 aircraft, can the lead and deputy lead be officers, the other 2 NCOs? It seems to have served the Air Corps well, but about the only thing the AAC has got right in its entire short history! :D

[airborne_artist]

At war, transition to war, in attrocius weather conditions, in far from ideal environmental conditions, and with no hotel in sight - then this is when the officer earns his money.

So how do you explain the moustache wearing, Herefordshire based Sgt/Corporal who is i/c his 5/6 man patrol out for several weeks in desert/jungle/mountains (delete as appropriate)? Apples and pears in terms of role/skills etc., but the leadership, critical thinking, resiliance, maintenance of aim elements are very similar.

[The Helpful Stacker]

At war, transition to war, in atrocious weather conditions, in far from ideal environmental conditions, and with no hotel in sight - then this is when the officer earns his money.

On Ex Rhino Replen a few years back we had a det commander who would regularly cry her little eyes out if confronted with a 'problem', everything from her sleeping bag being wet to a new site being inappropriate for the task in hand (which she had recce'd). Just the kind of leadership us poor unwashed OR's need from Cranwell's finest and thats on a nice, safe exercise in a friendly nation.

[MaroonMan4]

Here we go ;)

Hooligans have experience (remember the bit about young officers selected with leadership in mind etc etc), most of the guys going for selection have a number of years experience in which their leadership skills have been developed. Rarely do you get an NCO going straight for selection straight after basic trg.

And HS, we all know that any system is not fool proof and there will always be those that slip through the net (just like there are some real knobs of the commissioned types, there are some equal to$$ers in the NCO world) - I would hope that in all cases natural selection weeds them out!!

[KENNYR]

maroonman4, Your point about young officers running Flts etc is not very accurate. On PAPER they are the flight commander, but in my experience it was the senior NCO pilot or Sqn. QHI that actually mentored and provided direction to the young Lt or Capt..

[Stan Bydike]

As far as I remember the absolute requirement for commissioned personnel as aircrew came about as a result of the decision to have the British nuclear deterrent with the V-Force.

Anyone who joins and believes "I want to be an officer first" etc is an idiot who does not deserve to be commissioned in the first place.

Stands back, incoming flack, but in reality we all have to have skills which can be transferrable. Gone are the days when the forces were a way of life. Unless I have missed something it's just a job but the government will take full advantage of your commitment.

[Centre_Expand]

MaroonMan4,

Earlier in the post you stated:

"Leadership - I hope that Cranditz, Sandhurst and Dartmouth all still require, expect and develop leadership. As we all know any monkey can fly in CAVOK in peacetime. At war, transition to war, in attrocius weather conditions, in far from ideal environmental conditions, and with no hotel in sight - then this is when the officer earns his money.

A cockpit, a formation a flight will all require leadership.

I am not saying for one moment that the NCO community cannot lead, but officer selection identifies those at an earlier age that have the potential to lead (hence young officers get a platoon, flight or Division).

The NCO's rely on experience to obtain/develop their leadership potential which may take extra time, hence the LE, SD, upper yardy ex-ranker career path."

You have forgotten that NCO aircrew are also selected for their leadership potential and abilities and go through much the same training regime. It may not be as long, it may not have the pomp and circumstance, but the system works and regularly outputs SNCO's with much greater leadership abilities than those graduating with a commision.

As for the officers earning their money when the going gets tough; please dont insult me, you should hear the whinging that comes from the officer 1/2 of a certain 4jet MPA....

I don't wish to generalise but I'm afraid that in todays RAF there are too many officers who forget that having a rank on their shoulder is not enough to automatically make them a leader.

C_E

:ok:

[The Helpful Stacker]

I don't wish to generalise but I'm afraid that in todays RAF there are too many officers who forget that having a rank on their shoulder is not enough to automatically make them a leader.

Agreed and I'll add;

Respect is earned, not issued by Cranwell Clothing Stores.

[rafloo]

"You need A levels to be an Officer/Pilot"

No ya don't. 6 O levels is wot ya kneed.....and at least won in inglish

[500days2do]

Rewind required...or should that be rewind-up....

According to my aircrew manual...healthy bedtime reading...the crew consists of Pilot...Co-pilot...Navigator...Air eng(top bloke)...Air Loadmaster( another top bloke). I am willing to be corrected for other a/c types...but...there is no mention of any...suppliers,admin clerks,plods,nurses etc .
Have i lost an AL or is there a wannabe culture out there..????

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Lets see:

You need A levels to be an Officer/Pilot, many SAC Techncians have A levels.

Absolutely. So they're qualified to do my job, and I'm qualified to do theirs. However, I chose mine, and they chose theirs; what exactly are we going to start arguing about here for 10 pages?

Why are you actually worried about whether pilots should be officers or NCOs? If, as has been said, there are plenty of adequately qualified people around who are currently NCOs, why don't they cross over?

This strikes me as the sort of thread that will degenerate into pathetic mud-slinging. I wanted to be a pilot, and I'm very happy being an officer. If there're SAC Techs out there with degrees, I'm sure they're very happy with their job; and if they're not, I'm sure they're taking steps to change it.

Just because someone in a "lower" job has the qualifications to do another one doesn't instantly mean the system's screwed. I'm sure I'm qualified to be Prime Minister, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to sit here being a pilot :ok:

[L1011GE]

According to my aircrew manual...healthy bedtime reading...the crew consists of Pilot...Co-pilot...Navigator...Air eng(top bloke)...Air Loadmaster( another top bloke).

Navigator?? 3 black boxes on our shiney aircraft!!!

Ever seen an Air eng doing a t/r properly??

Thats why big aircraft have GE/ Crew Chiefs..


YOU CAN TEACH A MONKEY HOW TO RIDE A BIKE......BUT HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A MONKEY FIX ONE???

[500days2do]

Ever seen a crew chief(americanism)/GE awake in the cruise...the best are always asleep just in case they are needed cease flying..!!! Cant remember last time GE turned down a helping hand on a snag/AF/BF/TR....!!!!

[L1011GE]

And I can't remember the last time the drivers stayed behind more than 15 mins after shutdown!

[rafloo]

5 GCSEs/SCEs and 2 A-levels or 3 Highers or equivalent. GCSEs/SCEs at Grade C/3 minimum to include English language and maths....... or equivalent. So you could join with 5 o levels, a degree in Botany...but no A levels.

How do I know this???? cos I is this..? Actually I got 6 o levels but the GS one shouldnt count as I cheated.

[C130 Techie]

Totally agree!

Come on guys there must be a topic for discussion that doesn't have to involve a w1lly waving contest.:ugh:

[Snapdragon]

Helpful Stacker quote:
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I don't wish to generalise but I'm afraid that in todays RAF there are too many officers who forget that having a rank on their shoulder is not enough to automatically make them a leader.
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Agreed and I'll add;

Respect is earned, not issued by Cranwell Clothing Stores.

Yes you are right, but it goes both ways. The number of times I have been ...through the gate/at stores/anywhere etc on an RAF Station, I have been treated with the utmost disrespect on many occasions, just because I are a pilot. Not too good at inglish, I were a swimming pool lifeguard before becoming a pilot. However I have never been the cause of friction anywhere because I deem myself better than anyone else. If provoked I will retaliate, however I am always polite and cordial until provoked. I even saluted a Fg Off because I was in his office ( Me Flt Lt at the time) as a mark of respect to his appointment/status. A mate who went through IOT with me said he was instructed as an SAC to hate all officers on sight and give them the run around whenever possible. I rest my case. If the hatb fits and you are a C**T you deserve what you get, however it pisses me off when officers get tarred with one brush. Sorry Rant over!

[Uncle Ginsters]

Hmmmm?!? Save money by making all aircrew non-commisioned and paying less.

Lose a fortune on the PR/Recruitment req'd to cover those(all) that run to a higher-paid civvy job. (Remember why we had FRIs?)

It's as simple as that.
Sadly, with so many fringe-benefits already cut out by the beancounters, money does matter to most.