Doncaster Sheffield Airport GA Conflicts

[Whoooooop Whoooooop]

I had to see if there's any "official" reaction to some concerns being muted on the DSA enthusiast Forum.

There are lots of comments concerning the close proximity of Sandtoft, a GA strip with busy light aircraft activity (and a Provost) to the new Doncaster Sheffield Robinhood, call it what you will airport.

Aparently DSA do not yet have their own Radar & are effectively blind to non transponder equipped A/C.

The ILS of DSA's runway 20 runs right through the GA activity of Sandtoft & many of the light A/C are not Transponder equipped.

Local concern is that the whole thing is currently not fail safe as it assumes that ALL GA traffic will call up DSA to advise they are in the region.

One comment even went as far as to say that the landing passenger jets are infact on occasions flying over the top of these light A/C

Is this information new to Pprune & more importantly are the guy's flying these jets aware that allthough "cleared" to the ILS, the DSA controllers have no way of knowing what may "pop up" into the path of the ILS.

Would be good to hear some confident dismissal of these rumours, but I have a feeling they will be more likely reinforced?

[Charley]

Hi Whooop,

There's not much I can say about this specific case other than to clarify a couple of points for you. The problem with enthusiast sites is that (bless their cotton socks) they don't always fully understand the technical issues.

Firstly, if Doncaster has no radar, then it is irrelevant whether the local aircraft have transponders or not. Transponders respond to SSR (secondary surveillance radar) and therefore it is no consequence to the DSA controllers specifically as to whether aircraft have them fitted or not.

In that respect, Doncaster can only provide traffic information to any aircraft against 'known' traffic, i.e. traffic which is talking to Doncaster on their radio frequency.

One comment even went as far as to say that the landing passenger jets are infact on occasions flying over the top of these light A/C

Yes, and when you come back from your hols in Tenerife or wherever, how many aircraft do you think you fly over? Flying over other aircraft is not a problem in itself, as long as the seperation is adequate. Are the people on this other site you mentioned suggesting that seperation has been eroded?

('Seperation' is the prescribed horizontal and vertical distances between aircraft, the 'safety zone', if you like).

At present, Doncaster is not shrouded in airspace and, as a result, any aircraft (airliners, light aircraft, gliders, microlights, hot air balloons etc) has a legal right to be in the area surroundng it. The airlines don't own the skies... yet. Doncaster only has a small amount of airspace (2.5 nm radius, 2000 feet high) to which entry would require their permission.

Incidentally, this won't be changed when Doncaster does gain a radar service, as the surrounding area will still be open-access (called the Open FIR). However the radar service should be able to provide warnings against possible conflicts with transponding traffic which might not be on-frequency.

Hopefully those operating GA aircraft in the area will display good airmanship and give Doncaster a call and allow them to provide appropriate information to commercial traffic. Similarly, though, the commercial crews will hopefully display good airmanship by appreciating that they're operating in the Open FIR and by being particularly vigiliant in the area.

These issues are not unique to Doncaster, there are now a number of airfields in the UK open FIR where commercial operations take place, although the Doncaster area has often been a area of reasonably frequent air activity.

[Whoooooop Whoooooop]

Charley,

Thank's for the info.

I think that the general reason for such nervousness is that Doncaster are using Waddington as "their" Radar control. ie. arriving & departing traffic are immediately handed over to Waddington control upon departure & from their control once over the arifield beacon.

I understand your comment regarding the no transponder comment, but the point I was trying to make is that if the good Airmanship is not taking place, there's another link in the chain due to Waddington Radar control.

For example, if Waddington "see" a blip of a non transponding A/C heading towards the ILS for Runway 20. Could there not be an increased risk that it will take longer to communicate this information to the Landing A/C who are themselves now talking to Donny & no longer Waddington?

Also, I think there's some truth in the comment that Waddington can't see right down to the circuit height on their Radar. So what happens in this below 2000ft region as the arriving & departing A/C are close to the airport?

As regards the overflying A/C comment, I appreciate that in controlled Airspace A/C over fly each other all the time, however they are usually closely monitored by Radar. Not the case on the Doncaster ILS at the moment.

I would urge anyone who knows how the system at Doncaster is currently configured to speak up if they have any insecurities at the moment.

Rumour, and this is a "rumour network" say's that there are some of the local GA flyers deliberately flying into the Doncaster controlled zone to see if they are going to get recognised & warned off. Seems like a pretty stupid game of "told you so" going on if there's any truth in the rumour.

Anyway, I have a least aired my concerns, let's hope they are unfounded.

Thanks

[MikeeB]

Just to give another side to this, I along with other people that I know used to practice aerobatics over the Thorne Moor's/Swinefleet Common area.

Granted, we could carry on doing so, but it's not something I would personally choose to do anymore without having firm communication with Doncaster. Even then, I'd probably go find somewhere else to play now.

I also noticed a JP doing aerobatics in the Eastrington/Howden area late on Saturday afternoon. Whilst I could not confirm it, I strongly believe it was the black JP from Sandtoft that used to frequent the same area?

I find it beyond belief that local GA flyers, rumour or not, would deliberately fly into the ATZ to see what happens. Why would they start to do this at Doncaster, when Humberside has been open for this "pass time" for years? Maybe we could pop down to Coventry and have a dabble there as well?

I'd be more inclinded to think that a small band of either pro-Humberside (although Humberside could turn out to be an own goal) or LBA supporters are making up and spreading rumours about DSA in the hope that the local media pick up on it and print an article in an attempt to scare off passengers.

At least I hope that's the case.

[Charley]

I'd be more inclinded to think that a small band of either pro-Humberside (although Humberside could turn out to be an own goal) or LBA supporters are making up and spreading rumours about DSA in the hope that the local media pick up on it and print an article in an attempt to scare off passengers.

I have to be completely honest and say that thought crossed my mind as well. Call me cynical.

[Whoooooop Whoooooop]

You Old Cynic Charley !

I agree that there's a chance that some rumour is poor invention but without Radar & with the local level of interest from GA Weekenders it's inevitable I guess.

I do not wish to fuel the rumours further, those who are interested can see for themselves at:-

http://www.doncasterfinningleyairport.com/

by visiting the bulletin board

There's no point in trying now because the board is closed due to a Virus

[glitterbay]

I was down at DSA yesterday and was quite concerned as the daily Ryanair flight was on its approach to runway 02 a helicopter suudenly appeared. The tower controller then had to warn the Ryanair pilot that he was unable to make contact with the intruder and that he was only 500 feet below the aircraft.
Was joined by some fellow spotters who claimed it was the third such incident in the last 7 days.
Also noticed thereafter that the tower controller seemed more vigilent than usual in tracking the position of all traffic in the area and refused some requests from local pilots to do touch and go's, stating that he was expecting incoming aircraft in the next 30 minutes.
Hope they can sort things out soon.

[MikeeB]

I think that I will Post concerns of this on Pprune, couldn't live withmyself if there was a nasty accident & the Pilots were never made aware

That made me laugh. I'm quite sure all the pilots flying in and out of Doncaster are well aware of everything they need to be.

I'm still curious as to why a lot of people think that GA pilots, flying out of Sandtoft for example, would want to become intimate friends with a big jet?

Still, I do take onboard some of the more informed comments made.

Looking forward, a nice block of Class D to take them into the airway (Y70?) wouldn't go a miss. Sandtoft would no doubt benefit from an excellent radar service and Gamston VOR wouldn't remain the honey pot that it is today for GA traffic.

[Mach Jump]

Quote:

'That made me laugh. I'm quite sure all the pilots flying in and out of Doncaster are well aware of everything they need to be'.


Pilots can only be aware of things they are told.

It's no laughing matter!

Interesting reaction from the Spanair crew when they found out they had no radar service and no controled airspace!

[holidaymax]

Mach Jump you can spread that rumour on as many boards as you like (as you have), but it still won't come true.

[Captain Stable]

Pilots can only be aware of things they are told.Not true. They can ensure they have adequately briefed themselves on facilities and services of their airports of destination and alternates. Availability of radar, proximity and extent of controlled airspace, etc., are all matters of regulation, and are publicised where necessary. To anyone to whom such details come as a surprise, I would say "More fool you for not planning your trip and ensuring you were adequately briefed." Anyone who wants to be called a professional pilot needs to behave in a professional manner and apply common rules of airmanship.

[Whoooooop Whoooooop]

That's all very well intentioned comment Captatain Stable, but what about those poor pople in the back who are blissfully unaware of how clued up or otherwise their Flight Crew may or may not be regarding the potential issues.

It may be "more fool you" for those in the drivers seat if they don't do the homework but for the 120 in the back it's a bit tough?

Is that the point you are making?

[PPRuNe Radar]

That's all very well intentioned comment Captatin Stable, but what about those poor pople in the back who are blissfully unaware of how clued up or otherwise their Flight Crew may or may not be regarding the potential issues.

In which case, no passenger should ever travel by air ...... I'll tell Danny to start closing PPRuNe down as there will be no airlines left ;)

If you think the situation at Doncaster is anything new, then you need to look further afield. This scenario happens at many airfields up and down the UK, as well as all over the globe. People live with it and adapt. They have no other choice.

Aircraft in uncontrolled airspace are legtimately allowed to be there. There is NO separation mandated, except 'see and be seen'. The responsibility for that separation is just as much that of the commercial pilots as the guy in his helicopter or aerobatic steed, regardless of the phase of flight. If that means a commercial jet breaking off the ILS in accordance with the Rules of The Air to avoid a GA aircraft who has the right of way according to the ANO, then that is what the pilot is obliged to do.

As Captain Stable said, the rules for different kinds of airspace, for avoiding collisions, for Air Traffic Service provision, are all laid down in documents which pilots must legally take account of. Thus there should be no surprises to anyone.

As Doncaster is now the new kid on the block, the moral obligation to liaise with other well established aviation activities must lie with them. However, without controlled airspace, they cannot have any hard and fast guarantee that every airspace user will abide by any local agreements. And quite rightly so. The freedom GA pilots have is enshrined in law. Airmanship on the part of both parties has served relatively well over the years in avoiding mid air collisions, I don't see why the opening of a small commercial operation should suddenly erode that and make pilots 'forget' what they already know.

[melissab]

Having flown in and out of the new DSA for Thomson Fly I can reassuringly say that everyone is accutely aware of the risk of flying in the open IFR and is following the rules of airmanship of see and be seen. Where possible the tower and Waddington radar, and to a certain extent Manchester help out but in the long run the pilots must take responsibility for flying in a busy uncontrolled area. This is nothing new after flying out of Coventry where there is also a mixture of traffic that the tower cannot necessarily see. If all pilots follow the same procedures of keeping a good look out, keeping the lines of communication open and in our case keeping the speed low with the automatics in asap so as to have 2 sets of eyes hopefully a near miss will be averted. All we can do is rely on the basics at the moment but there's a lot to be said for forcing pilots to concentrate!
Good luck to all who venture into DSA, it's actually quite a nice airport!

[Mach Jump]

Holidaymax
If the Spanair thing is not true then I apologise for misleading people. I just repeated something I saw on another forum.

CaptainStable
Thankyou, you are quite right of course.

[helicopter-redeye]

Same argument was applied at Sheffield City (EGSY) when it opened and was carrying scheduled commercial traffic from KLM, SN and BA C.

Nobody hit anything.

In the area generally, there is far less traffic than in the SE around the London area for Farnboro', Blackbush, etc where there are big biz jets around.

There may be more GA crossing class D space at EGNX (East Mids) North to South because of the bottleneck caused by the class D space there.

I recall Finningley was going to get (sorry, Doncaster) a radar service piped from the Claxby radar head and into John Lennon for approach control. Did this not happen?

(Waddington hrs are reduced but Doncaster is H24??)

h-r