Buying a share - G or N reg?

[TangoZulu]

I am thinking of (well have actually decided to!) buy a share - just need to now choose which one!

Of a couple of options which I am considering (ignoring type for the moment) one is N-reg and the other G-reg. Whilst I think I am familar with the relative pros and cons of these, I am concerned by the apparent upsurge recently in suggestions that N-reg may not be permitted in the (near?) future.

I know this has probably been a suggestion for a long time, but would be interested any views on whether this should affect my choice now.

Also, I am led to believe that the aircraft currently on the N-reg, whilst fully compliant with FAA rules, may not have all the paperwork required to transfer to the CAA in the future?

Any comments / thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

TZ

[Confabulous]

Depends what you want the A/c to do and what your licences allow you to do.

If you want to go IFR, probably an N-reg. Problem is that the N-reg route could be taken away at any time (doubtful but possible).

Personally while I used to consider N-reg a high priority, my choice is whether I'll go for C of A or PFA.

I'm in Ireland but it makes no difference, it's pased on the UK system. PFA is cheaper in terms of maintenance, paperwork and building/buying the a/c. I doubt N-reg could compete with the maintanence costs of a PFA a/c.

My 2c worth
Confab

[fishtits]

I'm in Ireland but it makes no difference, it's pased on the UK system. PFA is cheaper in terms of maintenance, paperwork and building/buying the a/c. I doubt N-reg could compete with the maintanence costs of a PFA a/c.

Con,

Am I right in thinking that you cannot use these aircraft in IMC conditions - even if you have an IR?

[Confabulous]

fishtits :ok:


Am I right in thinking that you cannot use these aircraft in IMC conditions - even if you have an IR?

You're absolutely correct, but there aren't that many PPL/IR holders around so it makes very little difference - unless TZ says differently. Besides, how many are going to fly SEP IFR?

That said, most new PFA designs have better avionics then an IFR capable C of A design - no doubt certifying them at least 'IMC capable' (my own phrase) is coming.

Anyhow, back to the debate - N or G?

Also, I am led to believe that the aircraft currently on the N-reg, whilst fully compliant with FAA rules, may not have all the paperwork required to transfer to the CAA in the future?

So what happens if the FAA/CAA revoke say, foreign SEP N-reg privileges? Personally, I'd have my suspicions if insufficent paperwork was even hinted at.

[turniphead]

two related points:
1. You had better believe that the DoT (via the CAA) will come down heavily on N reg.
2.That will mean heavy metal barons, mooneys currently flown airways on US I/R having to scud run like the rest of us around London at 2400ft as US I/R u/s on G reg and UK PPL/IR almost impossible to obtain.

Big safety implications i think.

[stuartforrest]

In my opinion and after some research I am sure it is likely that the N reg option become difficult or impossible and I am currently spending many thousands of pounds putting my N reg Bonanza of just one year back onto the G Reg. Oh dear that was a serious waste of money for me!

I would guess it would be potentially dodgy to go N reg while it is currently openly under review by the DOT.

[Flyboy-F33]

Stuart,

I really suspect you have jumped the gun and switched back too early. Why didnt you wait until the legislation is enforced? The feeling is that it will take years to put it into practice if ever, and many aircraft would not be capable of going onto the Greg, so may have been give grandfather rights.

I see no reason for you to have made the move back yet....maybe you enjoy wasting money?

[IO540]

There is absolutely zero point in going back to G now just because one is afraid. A huge waste of time and money.

The minimum they would need to do is amend the ANO and that will take a year or more even if this was a high priority item with zero repercussions - which it certainly isn't!

A workable scheme is very hard to do, while permitting (as they must) people visiting the UK.

What they have done is clamped down on commercial work, which was always an option (ANO Article 115). A lot of people were taking the p155.

What "everybody" has succeeded in doing is to scare everybody, which is one very good objective. Spread a lot of uncertainty and doubt; easily done in places like here and elsewhere. A lot of anti-N posts here are from G-reg flying schools, G-reg maintenance shops, JAA instructors... all sorts of people who are suffering from the constantly shrinking UK GA scene and who would like to make more money.

Of course it is "under review"; it always has been and always will be. Nobody will ever guarantee anything in this business.

Your local airfield is far more likely to sell out to a developer one day, possibly tomorrow and stuff like THAT (plus the decrepit planes and decrepit old fashioned attitudes) is what is likely to kill off GA in the UK in the long term.

In this business, there is always a cloud on the horizon. £3000 on Mode S, en route charges, SEP bans into some airports, and then on an individual level one has constant fear of prosecution by the CAA for some infringement, eyesight worries, other medical worries, hangarage worries, quality/cost of maintenance worries (yes lots and lots of those). For those who want to worry there is always something to moan about.

I am not talking about anyone in this thread but it's no wonder GA is so full of moaners and whingers. Just pick up any of the aviation mags: moans moans moans starting on page 1 and going all the way to the start of the adverts.

A lot of the concerns are justified because there is always somebody trying to restrict privileges or to do you out of something but a lot of it isn't ever going to happen.

I seriously doubt my kids will be flying, not in the UK anyway. But I will fly for as long as I can because it is a great privilege and great fun.

A prudent policy for someone on the N register now is to avoid modifications that will make a return to G expensive or even impossible.

As for someone asking how many people fly single pilot IFR, the answer is LOTS. One needs a well equipped aircraft, not at all the sort one sees in PPL training.

[stuartforrest]

Flyboy-F33

No I dont enjoy wasting money but perhaps you would consider my reasons before you pretty much suggest I am a fool.

I was just about to commence training on an FAA IR in the UK but all the schools appear not to be doing any training coupled with the fact that I dont want to train for a licence I wont use in the near future. I will never get to the USA to do the licence.

Further I have a very well equipped £200,000 Bonanza that currently flies VFR while I wait for the DOT to make up their mind and finally I have personally spoken to the man who has been tasked to carry out the review by the government minister and he made a very good case that this would be stopped. He did point out that it would take a while.

Whilst I would not for one minute suggest that someone who currently has an N Reg (perhaps you) and an FAA licence should change it back immediately, I dont so there is good reason to do it for me.

Finally the guy who started this post asked which way to go and I gave him my opinion. In my opinion you would be foolish to go N reg right now given the current active review by the DOT as you may be exposing yourself to future costs like I have.

You and many others may be happy to post that it is not going to happen etc. but I for one am convinced it will. I am not scare mongering and spreading doom and gloom. Unlike most of the posters I have actually spoken to the government department at length. That is not to say that what they told me will definately happen its just it looks a lot more likely than not at this point.

I would think I had very good reason to change back and that is why I have "wasted my money".

[Flyboy-F33]

Maybe I'm the fool.......

I have now committed to the switch to the N reg, being half way through my FAA IR training, I will sit the writtens here in the UK and return to the US for the flight test...Its no big deal, I dont see why you would never go to the states to do it?

My bet is, that nothing much will happen in the short term. DfT have not received the answers they expected from The CAA and I think this is someones personal soap box issue.

At least I have put my money where my mouth is

Should be an interesting one to watch.

[stuartforrest]

I didnt say I wouldnt go to the USA, in fact I went a month ago to pick up my PPL from them but what I said was I could never get to the USA meaning that my 4 young children wouldnt be happy about me leaving them for 2-3 weeks. Also I cant see the point of me doing it at my stage in the program.

For me it was easier to change the plane reg than change the pilots licence so I went that way. The final nail in the efforts to get an FAA licence was when I spoke to the DfT.

I am pretty confident that all private pilots in Europe will be regulated by Europe in the next few years as I am sure the beauracrats will see to it.

[IO540]

There are actually very few people involved with GA in the agencies, and everybody that phones them up will get through to the same people, and will of course get the same atory. They are hardly going to encourage somebody to go N.

Getting the required training, and the required logbook entries in the UK isn't a problem. It is the checkride that might be, because the worst case scenario is that you have to get an examiner to visit. This is easy to arrange but is very expensive unless you can share the costs with others.

If somebody REALLY cannot go to the USA for even the checkride then I would agree that this could become a trap. It could more likely become a trap if one did one's training while relying on a training firm to arrange an examiner; they might not be able to.

There is also no doubt that doing all thetraining in the USA, just like everybody has been doing for years, is going to be far cheaper and quicker than doing iot here even if you have your own plane.

But there is no likely clampdown on N in the next few years. Far too many fish to fry and most of them are far bigger than GA.

[stuartforrest]

Sorry io540 I disagree. IMO they will make it more difficult to be on the N reg here. I felt so strongly about it I am spending the money to change my plane back.

I do understand though that there are many people who are strongly disagreeing with me because it affects them financially and IMO they dont want to believe that it will happen.

Clearly you have no better idea than I do about this. It is just as likely to happen as to not happen and the DfT are trying to make it happen but that is balanced against the fact that it is no doubt difficult for them to because of all the reasons you mention. I am happy that for me it was right to change my plane back so I will of course argue that I am making the right decision. You obviously have your FAA licence so will of course wish to believe that it wont I guess.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Stuart,

It is obviously your prerogative to do with the registration of your mount what you want to do but given that you have an FAA PPL I can not really understand why you made the move back.

After all with your FAA PPL you can fly N reg all over the world and if you want to do the IR you can do the JAR one (which is what I assume you will do if you want to fly IFR in the future in the G reg) and once you have that you only need to do the FAA Instrument Foreign Pilot exam (60 multiple choice questions - can be done in States or over here in Europe) and nip over to an FSDO of your choice and have the IR added to your FAA PPL.

Total time needed for that in the States; 1 day!

[IO540]

I agree with FD. Going back to G now rather than if/when required, doesn't add up.

The exceptions might be

1. The owner (an FAA PPL but not yet an FAA IR) absolutely cannot enter U.S. territory for some reason (I can think of a few, not suggesting of course anyone here has such reasons!). Thus, if FAA checkrides were to become impossible outside the USA, he has no way to obtain an FAA license/rating. BUT remember that the CAA/DfT has no means to prevent FAA licenses being obtained elsewhere outside the UK, nor can they ever prevent remunerated training taking place outside the UK FIR. So this paragraph really applies to the FAA banning checkrides outside the USA. I've seen no sign of this as yet.

2. The owner will be unable to revert to G in the future but can do so now. I can't think of a plausible scenario for this. Maybe there is a lifed item (hourly-based), perhaps an airframe hours issue, which enables a G CofA to be issued now but will prevent it being issued after X hours have been reached, without a lot of expensive work.

3. One's maintenance situation makes FAA work much harder to get done. For example one might have hangarage with a JAR maintenance shop which doesn't have an FAA approval (and refuses to get an FAA IA to visit and sign off the work) and which absolutely insists on maintenance work as a condition of the hangarage otherwise they will kick you out of the hangar.

Otherwise, staying on N now and going to G if necessary sometime in the future is the least cost option.

As I've said before, there is no such thing as peace of mind in GA.

[2Donkeys]

There are indeed many hurdles for the DfT to jump before they take any action against the UK-resident N-reg fleet. Presumably, any rules changes would not just affect N-reg aircraft, but would be a general move against either non-G or, more likely, non-JAR aircraft, even if the N-reg fleet was the intended "victim".

None of this makes it impossible for the DfT to get a consultation and rule-change through the system relatively quickly. Perhaps by as early as the end of this calendar year.

It is no secret that they wish to bring an end to the N-reg fleet, they have said as much quite openly. Whether they will succeed in the face of probable pressure from private owners is another matter.

2D

[TangoZulu]

Thanks for all the comments.

Now need to try and make sense of it all and also decide which aircraft - another thread maybe!!

TZ