How do YOU do it?

[shortcut_approved]

Hi all,

Just a question for all you pilots out there. I'm an FO with a UK-based regional outfit, and was wondering how our Non-Handling Pilot Duties compared with those of other airlines. The main thing I'm interested in is the keeping of the Nav-Log, etc. We have to write down every ATC Clearance and Frequency Change. Having just flown with a Captain who was an FO with a European operator, he says that their NHPs never had to do this.

So my question is, is this just a UK thing, or is indeed my company stuck in the dark ages with stuff like this?

Cheers,
Shortcut

[Say again s l o w l y]

It's a sensible thing writing clearances and frequencies down. You have a written record of what happened and what you were asked to do.

It can help if you get memory problems or press the wrong buttons/twist the wrong knobs.

As far as I'm aware writing this stuff down is mandatory as well as sensible.

[Miserlou]

I work for a Scandinavian company. We don't have any rules governing those details.
However, on the ground when the paperwork is on your lap anyway, I don't know anyone who doesn't write down SID clearances and so on and other instructions (taxi, routing, levels and headings) are to be repeated by the handling pilot after being read back to ATC by the NFP.
Regarding frequency changes, it is a good technique that the frequency is first read back after having been set in the display. It is often the handling pilot who sets this, or whoever's hand comes first, but the frequency which is read back is the frequency which is set.

One of my pet hates is a taxi clearance all the way to the runway but then having to hold before half way. "Taxi A, B, C, D, hold before C."
In these cases I only write and read back as far as we are actually cleared. "Taxi A, B, hold before C."

[The Greaser]

I thought I worked for an anal company, but to write down every frequency change seems a bit like overload to me.

[airshowpilot]

It would seem to be good practice, but is not mandatory where I am. In addition to the usual clearances and weather, I will typically write down frequencies, transponder codes and usually make one fuel check...we only do short hops.

[cavortingcheetah]

:) shortcut_approved. Hello there. Sometimes short cuts are not approved!
If you are required to write down every clearance and frequency change then such a requirement on the part of your company presumably forms part of its SOPs.
It matters neither a whit nor a jot what anyone else thinks or did with another operator.
An SOP is not necessarily the only way to do things and it can often deviate from common sense and even from a manufacturer's aircraft Flight Manual. That's not the point. It is part of your company's modus operandi. You are stuck with it and the day you're nipping along nicely into somewhere like Paris and have to ask them to: 'Say again frequency' you'll have a lot of egg on your face-if you have even been able to break in to ask for that which control will have assumed you would write down anyway. Now I must QSY. Bye. ;)

[alexban]

cheetah..the reason for asking 'say again freq' may be that you confirmed it,noted down,changed it and got no reply ...because you've received a wrong freq or you missunderstood it and the atc failed to correct your readback....so please forget the egg-on-face argument.
The only reason to write down the freq is that it can happen to change by itself or by mistake.I've seen once the freq changing by itself,due to some quartz :confused: problem (i've been told)..so you better have it written somewhere.
But even so,you have 121.5...no shame in asking there for some help. :)
QSM also... :D
Brgds.
Alex

[BOAC]

sca - cc has it it a nutshell - if your ops manual requires it, it SHOULD be done. Whether it is or not........................

The 'other captains/operators don't do/make me do that' is ONLY an interesting observation and conversation piece and does not, as such, justify ignoring the 'rules'.

[shortcut_approved]

Guys,

Just to set the record straight, I have got absolutely no problem with adhering to my company's SOPs. And yes, I do write down everything because that's what I've been taught, during both CPL/IR and Line Training. I can clearly see the benefits and safe-guards of it all, the query was simply from an "interested to see how others are doing it" viewpoint.

This is my first and, as yet, only airline experience, I have no other background knowledge to compare it to, hence my reason for asking about it here.

Cheers,
Shortcut

[er82]

Can't really see the problem with it........ What else are you doing?!?! I constantly do 25min sectors. As well as going through the checklist, I get the weather, and on our PLOGS write down headings, freq changes, cleared levels etc. It really doesn't take much effort to do that. You'll find it's most probably a CAA requirement to have properly completed plogs, with fuel checks and all sorts on. I wonder if the CAA like the pictures I draw??!

Having said that, because I get to do the same route day in day out, I can actually write all the frequencies on the PLOG before we've even left the crewroom. Saves me about 20seconds total time during flight!

[Piltdown Man]

It's an anal company thing, not UK, not international. You also probably have to tie your tie in a certain way and copy the weather for the entire planet and do fuel (or is that fool) checks every 10 seconds. Under confident training/fleet/ops/management if you ask me.

[Miles Magister]

It is sensible to write down clearances and as much information as you can. We do not inspect the flight logs but 1st officers are expected to write down all information so we can use it and refer to it.

JAR OPS 1.1055 does require you to write down initial and subsequent flight clearances concurrent and permanaent in nature.

Whether a frequency change is a clearance is a debate to which I am sure there is no end.

MM

[er82]

ummmmmmmm, why would doing a fuel check be an indication of "Under confident training/fleet/ops/management"??????

[cavortingcheetah]

;) Not quite sure about that myself er82.
I console myself with the knowledge that Piltdown Man was an anthropological fraud.:)

[Conan The Barber]

Well er82, perhaps Piltdown Man was a bit too subtle for you.

But if you read his post one more time, you might notice something like "every 10 seconds". Sort of changes the whole thing. No?

[Piltdown Man]

Thank you Conan. The point I was making, obviously missed by others, is that when you operate very short sectors, say 10 to 20 minutes - your attention should really be on operating the aircraft and missing the ground etc. The ancient advice of "Aviate, Navigate and Communicate" still applies. When this has been done, then do your paperwork, if time. Onerous and pointless paperwork is a detriment to flight saftey.

So, short-cut_approved, if your company absolutely insist that paperwork is completed on the spot, in flight, at critical times I'd suggest a Chirp report when things are safe and and you make an error (which you will) or a (Confidential - if it has to be) MOR when an unsafe error occurs (which will happen). Your words will be listened to by those who matter.

Good luck.

[er82]

Aren't we talking about what paperwork the PNF does? In which case, it'll be the PF's job to be "operating the aircraft and missing the ground etc". However long a sector is, a fuel check should be done.
On a 25min sector we do one fuel check. Takes all of 10 seconds. It tells us how much 'excess' fuel we have, so that when looking at the destination weather, if it's crappy, we can straight away do a rough calculation of how long we can hold for.
I wouldn't really say that a fuel check is pointless and a detriment to the safety of the flight....

[Piltdown Man]

I too think we are talking about the PNF's duties. Fuel checks - yes, I do them all the time - roughly, in my head. I do the official one just after start, on the ramp (or at the Hold). And that will do me for the next 30 minutes or so. In flight I'll only get destination ATIS and maybe speak to handling. The rest of my time is monitoring the other guy. And when matey boy (or girl) is flying, they do the opposite. It takes two to operate a public transport aircraft for good reasons - there are far too many smoking holes in the ground where only one person was flying. And don't try and sell me the WX bunkum. When operating short sectors it is generally unchanged from when you got the briefing pack in the first place. And I also know how long I can hold for BEFORE I depart in crappy weather.

I'll say again - pointless paperwork has no place in aviation. And finally, IMHO, Operations Manuals should have written in them (in big letters) that no paperwork should be performed below FL100 or Sector Safe plus 5,000', whichever is the higher.

[Nil further]

er82

i am familiar with the practices of your employer and others ! all i would say to you is that there is another world out there , in view of the current situation at your employer i would urge all of you to vote with your feet .

At the big easy there is no requirement to complete any PLOG at all for short flights you describe , the PLOGS that we use are dumped in a crate in the crew room for a month and then shredded by the admin staff .

p.s. im not saying its perfect at easy , but its a whole lot better than the working for your famous and rightly much maligned on this board t***er of an ex jet fleet man' and all his cronies and place men.

NF

[BA299]

In the airline where I work all the paper work at the end of the flight go to the waste. For my preference I write just the departure clearance (SID initial climb altitude if not published and the squawk), ATIS, Metars and taxi route.
I use a very short and fast way to write: the SID KPT9E for me are just 9E.
Our OM doesn't put any rules about this subject.

[ifleeplanes]

The paper work goes in the bin at the end of a flight? There are certain items tht need to be kept for serveral months...not quite sure how long , among them the flight plan and the voyage report.
In my company we have to do a fuel check every 30 mins and log departure clearances taxi instructions and all comms above FL100. Its a good idea since you have a record of the flight come any disciplinary action for any reason..ie alt busts etc etc.