BA rosters: down to earth

[flyA380]

(I edited the title of this topic from BA Rosters to BA B777 junior FO, since quite some different issues about the junior FO life on B777 are explained here)

Hey guys,

There are bits and pieces of info about BA's working regime all over this forum, but never a clearcut, up-to-date resume.

I have been accepted recently on the B777, a start date is staring me in the face.:cool:

I read some positive things and a lot of ultranegative stuff on the BA rosters, so please come out now: how is life for a bottom-of-the-list FO on the B777?:confused:

- Can you commute?
- How many days in a row are you on and then off duty? How many days in total is one at home per month on average? Could a BA FO 777 maybe post some roster examples?
- Is it possible to get requests granted (e.g. if you need to be at a wedding or for a weekend...)
- Do you have any weekends off at all?
- Can you plan your vacation days, or do you just get what is left?
- And how much vacation will one have per year at BA?
- How much destinations does the 777 fly to - is there a list somewhere?

BA is hiring at top speed: any answer on this post will be useful to a lot of newcomers.:ok:

Thanks a lot!

[Moe Syzlak]

How bad can it be? Take the job! -they don't bond and how many more offers do you have? - BA are unlikely to go down the pan.

[jerrystinger]

Don't be too disappointed, but the BA 777s don't do the better longhaul routes to say the least! Furthermore, the crew slips on the 777 fleet are by and large 24 hr nightstop stateside and middle east. LGW has some beach destinations, but they're snapped up quickly! Good luck anyway.

[The Greaser]

A380

I am also starting on the 777 (in August) and it didn't take me too much trouble to come up with the following list of destinations (of course we will get the minimum rest Newarks, Philadelphias and Washingtons!)

From LHR :

MONTREAL
TORONTO
BALTIMORE
BOSTON
CHICAGO
DENVER
DETROIT
JFK
EWR
PHILADELPHIA
WASHINGTON

LUANDA
CAIRO
ABUJA
HARARE

BAHRAIN
KUWAIT
MUSCAT
DOHA
ABU DHABI
DUBAI

DHAKA
CALCUTTA
ISLAMABAD

BEIJING
SHANGHAI

From LGW :

BERMUDA
ATLANTA
DALLAS
HOUSTON
ORLANDO
TAMPA

ANTIGUA
BRIDGETOWN
GRENADA
KINGSTON
ST LUCIA
TOBAGO


Best Regards

[Human Factor]

Some of the above are shuttle destinations (there and back from somewhere else, ie. DOH from BAH).

Anyway....

- Can you commute?
Certainly. Many people do. As you get more senior you'll have more control over your life so you'll be able to get longer blocks of days off.

- How many days in a row are you on and then off duty?
Typically, three or four on, two off. You can volunteer to reduce the days off to get more days in a block.

How many days in total is one at home per month on average?
Typically without leave, expect about 12-14 days at home per month.

Could a BA FO 777 maybe post some roster examples?
You'll be lucky. Expect 5 trips per month, mainly Eastern Seaboard with two days off in between. Expect to work most weekends. It's rare for 3-crew trips to get as far as the Blind Lines (ie. rostered lines) but not unknown.

- Is it possible to get requests granted (e.g. if you need to be at a wedding or for a weekend...)
If it's something important (wedding, funeral, Cup Final), a quiet word in the office helps if you aren't senior enough to achieve an appropriate Trip Line. Just for a weekend? Well, you can ask....:ouch:

- Do you have any weekends off at all?
Not many initially (expect zero, be pleased if you get more). You'll get more as your seniority increases.

- Can you plan your vacation days, or do you just get what is left?
Leave is allocated on a points system (not seniority) based on the last eight seasons. If you go for unpopular weeks over the first few seasons (ie. not Christmas or the school holidays), you get most points which gives you more choice in subsequent seasons - if you see what I mean...:confused:

- And how much vacation will one have per year at BA?
Four weeks leave (which you cannot work over), two Duty Free Weeks (which you can choose to work over but cannot be forced), so six weeks in total.

- How much destinations does the 777 fly to - is there a list somewhere?
Plenty (the previous post has a full list). Needless to say, the list can change at any time. Shanghai is a new route and in the past it's been to BKK, CPT, KL, Havana, Saudi and all over South America among others. You never know, it may go back.....

After your first five years (or at BA's discretion), subject to your seniority you'll be able to change fleets if the above doesn't suit you.

Welcome aboard.

[mr ripley]

I have also been given a course date for 777 in August.

Does antbody have anymore details on the training cse, length breakdown etc?

Regards

[flyA380]

Thanks for the quick replies:D
Please keep them coming if you have more.

(And change the seniority based system, to a nice point based system before we newcomers get there if you will;) :ouch: )

I read that after 6 months, you get staff travel.
Does that work in reality?
I mean, if I would want to commute out of Europe, from a regular BA destination, would it work? Do pilots accept their colleagues on the jumpseat if no seats available?

cheerful greetz

[justinzider]

Expect the course length to be a few days of Admin /Welcome /SEP and CRM. Then 2-3 weeks groundschool followed by 3 weeks Sim.
Not sure about longhaul line training as I'm a Shorthaul W#nker!

Commuting is possible, you can ask for a Flight Deck jumpseat and most of us will take you.

Barcelona, Nice and Geneva would be tricky to commute being junior as there are so many commuters and Staff Travel onload is allocated on Seniority.

See you on a jump seat soon, or perhaps on the 777 soon if I can get out of my initial freeze. I gather the triple is desperate for FO's as is the Scarebus fleet.

J.

[er82]

I'm not from BA, so could be completely wrong about this - although I have got quite a few friends at BA who I heard this from....
Although lots of newcomers have been taken onto the 777, there are also now quite a few internal BA pilots who have just got their bids back and have been given the 777 - although they may not get a course till next May.
So all the guys/gals who are joining now and for the next year will effectively be at the bottom of the seniority, therefore getting the worst trips etc, won't they then continue to be at the bottom as all the longer-serving BA lot move onto the 777 with their mugh higher seniority number?? It could be then that those going straight on the 777 will pretty much have a not-so-good roster for a pretty long time??

[justinzider]

That's about right!!!

[mr ripley]

Has anybody else got some more encouraging views? As far as I am concerned its like the pension, I won't get it so why fret about it. Seniority, it can only get better!

[justinzider]

Ripley,

Not sure where you're working now, but I guess BA will be better.
I moved 4 years ago and haven't looked back.

Seniority will improve slowly and the union haven't given up on improving the DEP pension deal to something that really is market leading or market matching (Virgin).

[Airbrake]

The BA DEP pension scheme will not change for a very long time. Any extra cost incurred by improving the company pension contribution would come from the same pot that will be used for future terms and conditions negotiations.
Those DEPs starting on the 'B' scale will be in the minority for a very long time and no final salary pilots are going to rock the boat and accept reduced benefits just so the new boys (and girls) can get an extra percent into their pension fund!
If you want/need a good pension BA may not be the place to go.

[The Greaser]

Still better than easyJet and many others pension schemes.

[Airbrake]

The pension contribution is better than some other companies, but not all their direct competitors. You really have to sit down and do some hard sums to figure out what is best for you, when you factor in time to command and the associated pay rise as well as your age and time to retirement. It's not an easy thing to assess.
In the past many ex-mil guys would leave the service at 38 with a pension, go to BA and leave at 55 with another pension(probably as a junior LH Capt). That will not happen any more as the goal posts have moved considerably - time to command has increased and pension is worse.

[expedite_climb]

Er82;

Not sure where you got your info from, but not so true. From the last run ~100 FO's leaving the fleet for the -400 or commands and only ~10 joining the fleet.

LOTS of new DEP's joining on the 777 over the coming few years.

Me - been in 3 months - 60 places off the bottom company wise, and over 20 on the fleet already! :-)

FlyA380 - look forward to it - its great ;-)

[maxy101]

I also understand that BA are anticipating almost all pilots to stay on at least a year longer than retirement age when the legislation changes next year. As previous posters/threads have mentioned, there wont be much movement in the future. Anticipate being stuck at the bottom of the bidding for a long time. (Until someone takes BA to a tribunal for discrimination)

[flyA380]

Is it likely that the BA bidding system (solely based on seniority) will ever change? (or that someone will fight it our before a tribunal... :suspect:

[ixion17]

OK this is back of a fag packet stuff but it is what I am working on. Please feel free to correct if anyone thinks I am way out.

Pension is money purchase - equates to 9% of basic pay (£44k x 9%=approx £4200 pa at the outset)

This will accrue in a pension pot over, lets say 22 years (ages 38-60), at a compound interest of 5% to a princely sum of around £150k to £200k by retirement. With this sum you should be able to take 25% as a tax free lump sum and use the remainder to purchase an annuity. Presently £100k will buy you a £6k pa pension(ish) til the day you croak.

Of course none of this is guaranteed, your pension pot may be worth zilch or a lot more. And of course the risk is all on the individual not the company pension fund.

In summary I've no idea how much the gold plated BA pension is after 22 years , but I bet it is a lot better than £10k (ish) pa, hence the debate!

Hope this helps - I'm no expert, this is just my guesstimate of the situation.

[ixion17]

It's a combination - roughly one third employee, two thirds company.

[expedite_climb]

ixion17,

Where do you get 44K from ? This is not the starting "pensionable" pay, it is lower. However, the pensionable pay goes up every year, and assuming you are under 31 (or more likely 36), you will retire on a "pensionable" of almost £120K (todays figures).........

[ixion17]

Uh oh - I knew this would get complicated!
I have used the simple 'formula' of 9% of basic pay (£44kish for starters) . The reality is that pensionable pay at the start is around £32k and for which you get a contribution of 12%. The company pays in 7% and the individual pays in 5%. Still equates to 9% of basic pay but makes the sums easier.

You are correct that the pension contribution will go up with your basic salary, ending up at around £10k after a couple of decades (for a basic salary of £120k). However, in my opinion this doesn't really alter the end game sums over 20 years as compound interest is a bigger factor and makes the early years contibutions as important, if not more. However, for those looking at more than 20 years in the company then higher payments and compound interest both start to work in your favour, and MAY even be better than a final salary scheme!

The new pension scheme is probably average for a large company these days. At least it is 'your' money and can't be touched if the company goes broke in the interim, as some of our American colleagues are discovering to their cost. IMO it should be improved by the company making a larger contribution to the pot to bring it into line with the offerings from the competition.

As ever I am no expert and am more than happy to be corrected on any of this.

[Scottie]

expedite_climb wrote:

you will retire on a "pensionable" of almost £120K (todays figures).........

The problem with that is that that high pensionable salary at the end is of naff all use to you. You have no years left to let compound interest work it's magic.

Different when under final salary it's your two best years that determine your pension.

That's not to say £120k is not good, it's very good but for a money purchase pension to be any good you need shed loads to be going in from the beginning.

[FlyingTom]

Figures worked out today. Current age 35. Retire 55/60.

No AVC = £6540/ £9030.

Max AVC = £11800/16300.


The only way this scheme can work is if a) you are very young which most DEP's are not or b) you already have a decent pension to import.

Makes the state pension look reasonable!

[flyA380]

This sounds indeed exactly like a pension scheme you could find in most European airlines. A percentage of your basic salary goes into a fund on your own name, and starts building a nice capital. Anything in there is yours to grab at retirement, the well being of the company is no factor.;)
Question: normally, you can get the whole sum in one payment, if you wish or choose for monthly sums. Is this possible at BA too?

And to get back on the thread: thanks for all the replies guys. There is stuff about:

Rosters, payment, pension, social life, destinations,...
Keep it coming on these topics!:ok:

Now: what is left? What does one need to know about BA, if you're deciding to join or not?

For example: how bad are you taxed? And on what - basic salary/flight pay/check-in clear allowances - ?:confused:
How about reserve duties?

The period to captaincy had been covered on another thread: let's not start that one again. I live on hope anyways: it won't be that bad.:\

Optimistic greetz

[Spearing Britney]

Remember how fast they are recruiting, those already in this year or joining in the near future will climb the seniority list on their fleet very fast to begin with. The first to join this year are already getting trip lines with some decent stuff on them!

[MrBernoulli]

..............and I am looking forward to starting next month!

[Human Factor]

Right, pay attention you lot!! ;)

Your pension is based upon 12% of your PENSIONABLE PAY. This is not the same as your basic pay. It equates to 9% of that, near as dammit.

For example, if you join on the 777, your basic in year 1 will be £42841. Your pensionable (which BAMPS is based upon) is £32130 so your 12% contribution rate comes from that. If you join on shorthaul (A320), your basic pay will be a little less but your pensionable pay will be the same.

Edited 'cos I've been up all night and lost the ability to count.... :zzz: :zzz:

[Lost For Words]

Just going back to the 777 lifestyle thread...

What you have heard about seniority vs quality of life at BA is all true. On the 777 being junior isn't the end of the world but the more people below you, the more choices you'll have.

Here's the good news: There are between 300 and 330 F/O's on the fleet depending on training and recruitment. If you start tomorrow, of course you'll be at the bottom, but not for long. As mentioned, there are about 90 DEP's starting on the 777 in the next 12 months. That means that you'll be 30% of the way up the list before you even get to go to the same place twice.

So after your first year, you'll be in quite an enviable position. Some guys take 8 years to get to the same level on the '400. The other nice thing is that everyone is frozen on type for the first 5 years after training. That means that you are guaranteed to maintain that buffer below you until you have a bit of seniority within the company as a whole.

Come on in, the water's lovely.

LFW

[You Gimboid]

I'm one of the 90 mentioned in LFW's post above & I'm being painted a pretty naff picture of the working pattern on the 777. Will new starters on the 777 just be doing East Coast bullets for the first 6/12/18 months?

Roughly how many days off a month are we likely to get in the first few months - I've been told by by my AME that one guy he treats just left the 777 fleet after spending a grand total of 6 days at home in Feb. (Bearing in mind he does commute from Manch area).

I must admit I was well excited to be moving to BA on the 777 after several years of EZY but I have to say I'm rather less enthusiastic now I've got to know a bit more. I was hoping to be less knackered in the long run but it seems not to be the case. Can anyone enlighten me?

[grunt]

Do not panic, I have spent nearly 6 years on the 777 and it is not that bad. I was near the bottom of the p1 list for over a year. If you go for a blindline, ie pre-ops allocate your work, you must have a minimum of 3 local nights off after every trip unless you agree to do back to backs which suits commuters. You should get a minimum of 10 days off and sometimes more if the work reduces as it does in the winter. It is a fab jet and ba is a good company to work for. Anybody who joins from outside, like wot I did, are glad they did..

777 Driver

[Scottie]

Grunt, quick question, do you commute from NI?

[Flying Fiona]

I was offered the 777 but decided to stay where I am. If you are a skipper on a jet stay where you are. If you fly a turboprop and are less than 27 take it. The first five years you will have a life from hell.

Lets have a look

1. No weekends

2. Wage drop

3. Holidays when you don't want them.

4. LGW or LHR.

5. Away from your family.

6. Night stopping with people you don't want to be with.

7. Hours and hours of boredom. (Think about a LGW-AGP)!

8. 20 years to command.

9. A pension calculated on a reduced salary.

10. Un-confirmed staff travel.

I could go on but I'm off to the Cup Final. Enjoy your day in Washington again!!!

[Tandemrotor]

Flying Fiona

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. But if you've not worked for BA, nor flown the B777, you may not be in a very strong position to comment.

For example: Do you even know how holidays are allocated?

I suspect those looking for information, may be more persuaded by people who actually know!

[The Greaser]

Fiona : Lets compare that to life in a low cost -

1. Maybe 1 weekend in 4 (will be knackered anyway)

2. First year BA take home pay will be around 500pounds more per month than SFO at easyJet. About 12 years Captains salary at low cost will equal first 12 years salary as FO with BA cumulatively.

3. Ditto, however I think BA's holiday system is fairer where if one year you don't get what you want, then next year you are more likely to.

4. LGW/LHR - some hassle I agree but commuting available if Long Haul

5. Not everyone has family, many have family abroad which may be more accessible through staff travel and lifestyle.

6. Night stopping with potentially 12 young females

7. Cant get away from the boredom I agree, at least at the end of a 10 hour shift you dont have to worry about coming back to work in 12 hours for another 4 sectors.

8. Command time is a disadvantage I agree, however salary makes up for it.

9. Pension pot at the end of a career significantly higher than staying with a low-cost.

10. Staff travel - I dont think anyone at a low cost would argue that BA's could be worse.

I am 30 and close to command at easyJet, but for me it is a no-brainer to join BA on the 777.

[Hand Solo]

Pretty good post from The Greaser, apart from point 6. No chance of that happening on long haul. Not ever.:(

[flyA380]

So what is it then: can you expect to fly only east coast and middle east in your first year on the B777, or does the blank bidding system offer some special treats now and then?

I am starting on the B777 in September: how may more shiny fresh FO's will join AFTER me? (I am getting a grip on this seniority thing :} )

I know, one shouldn't ask more than one question at a time to be efficient, but I can't help myself: what does reserve duty mean at BA - is that surviveable for a commuter?

Cheerful greetz:D

[Tandemrotor]

Don't knock the East coast or the Gulf. When it comes down to it, you'll have 12 - 18 months 'honeymoon period' where everything is new and interesting. After which, you may well have moved someway up the seniority list. For example, Newark is not highly regarded (for many reasons) but it's only 45 mins on the train to Manhattan! Every destination is what YOU make of it.

On the B777 a block of reserve is 28 days! However:

The first 7 days are a week of FDOs (Fixed Days Off) Think of them as an extra weeks leave! Because even the most junior can bid for (and get) pretty well any stby block, the ability to select these extra weeks 'leave' can be really useful!

The following 21 days you need to be able to reach the car park (note - 'the car park'!) in 2 hours. Quite often, when there is work to be covered it will be allocated the day before, by around 1800. So you have plenty of notice. It is unusual, though not unheard of, to be asked to come to work 'immediately' from home standby.

If you fly a trip from stby, you are guaranteed (I believe) one local day off, before being liable once again for stby. At least once in your block, you will be allocated a long break (minimum 2 days off) Can't recall if this could happen down route!

All in all, it's probably not quite as bad as it sounds. Just as well really since I imagine you might be required to do 3 or so of these per annum in your early years.

Some senior trips also, fall down to reserve, so you can go to places you might not otherwise see.

Enjoy

[Human Factor]

If you fly a trip from stby, you are guaranteed (I believe) one local day off, before being liable once again for stby. At least once in your block, you will be allocated a long break (minimum 2 days off) Can't recall if this could happen down route!

He's right. After a trip, you get one local day (night) off before you can be allocated another trip. You can volunteer to reduce this (for which you will receive a payment) in order to do a back to back trip. The 'long break' must be notified in advance and must be taken at home. However, the company can take into account days off down route for their planning, although this is not usually of great significance on the 777 as the trips are generally pretty short.

Tandemrotor,

Are you coming back down south or staying up north?

[exvicar]

Flying Fiona

BA are not exclusive in your list of ten gripes. In fact, I would say that you could complain about the same gripes in virtually any long haul lifestyle. Most people do not end up flying long haul unless they want to be there, there are plenty of short haul jobs for those with experience. Therefore, go with your eyes wide open. Plenty of shorthaul people fly weekends; have a wage drop; are not based where they want to be (consequently are away from their families); have a pension calculated on a reduced salary, which after all is now the norm & have unconfirmed staff travel. To say these are the evils of long haul is misleading, there is plenty going on in short haul! You may get an earlier command in Easy, but it will probably not be at your base of choice, oh time away from home again, will involve commuting & few weekends off. I could also go on, but I too have enjoyed the Cup Final (as much as you could with a somewhat mediocre performance), and I fly long haul which leads me to the positives.

1. Average of 3 to 4 trips per month
2. Live where you like, even if it is in France!
3. Experience the delights of commuting 3 times a month rather than 5 times a week
4. Spend time off where you fly & yes with the right attitude see a bit of the world
5. Some people you meet on trips you may actually enjoy spending time with. Oh & have time to enjoy a legal beer
6. LGW or LHR, who cares, live where you want
7. Time with your family when you are off
8. Staff travel that works 9 times out of 10 at vastly reduced rates
9. Boredom with a fantastic view & after all you are being paid for it

At the end of the day if you want time at home, weekends off & time with your family I would suggest to anyone that a career in aviation is not where you should look. As far as I am concerned I have friends who have a far worse lifestyle. Commuting to a windowless office in a big city to spend time with the same people that you know you don't like whilst earning a vastly reduced salary with a boss that resembles David Brent is far from fun.

Long haul........yeah!

All spelling mistakes Cup Final Vodka induced.

:ok:

[maxy101]

Quick example of junior guys rosters on the 777........JFK-LHR OFF OFF OFF YUL-LHR OFF OFF OFF OFF JFK-LHR OFF OFF DXB-LHR OFF OFF TA OFF OFF SIM SIM SEP IAD-Carry Out (Thats one month) Another would be DXB-LHR OFF JFK-LHR OFF OFF DXB-LHR OFF OFF CAI-LHR OFF BOS-LHR OFF SIM SIM ABV-LHR OFF OFF OFF . Another one is LAD LHR - OFF OFF TPA-LGW- OFF OFF IAHLGW- OFF OFF DTWLHR- OFF OFF JFK-LHR OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF PHL-carry out. ( All these are from several months ago)

[flyA380]

2. Live where you like, even if it is in France!

How is that compatibel with being reserve and having to be at LHR in 02 hrs if called?
I am European, please tell me I don't have to go sit out reserve duties at LHR airport:{ :{ :{ .

1. Average of 3 to 4 trips per month

I read on this failsafe site more people stating averages of 5 - 6 trips a month. As a true optimist and maybe for ever in denial, I will nevertheless believe you!:ok:

And thanks maxy, roster examples like that are highly appreciated!

Cheerful greetz,

[Shuttleworth]

going off thread for a moment; TR wrote .........

The first 7 days are a week of FDOs (Fixed Days Off) Think of them as an extra weeks leave! Because even the most junior can bid for (and get) pretty well any stby block, the ability to select these extra weeks 'leave' can be really useful!

I agree - BUT beware . The company don't like this . Combined with their desire to get part timers to do reserve...the intention is to drop this 7 day FDO block. Grrrr!
Balpa have seemingly already rolled over and agreed!

[Tandemrotor]

How is that compatibel with being reserve and having to be at LHR in 02 hrs if called?
I am European, please tell me I don't have to go sit out reserve duties at LHR airport.

You can sit out reserve on the dark side of the moon for all the company care. But if the Company call you, and you fail to get to the car park in 2 hours, you may find you have some explaining to do.

[expedite_climb]

Bit of confusion, between Reserve, and Home Standby here.

If you are on reserve, the company will call you in the evening to tell you if you are flying the next day. Alternatively, they may say; "Do a Home Standby tomorrow". If this is the case, then you need to be able to get to the car park in 2 hrs during the Standby period.......

[flyA380]

Aha! Most of the time, they will thus give you a duty or the day off, right? Is it common to get a home standby? Any commuters over there with feedback on the problem?
(how long is a reserve period by the way - hope it's not all day)

maxy101,

When I look at these roster examples you posted, I have the feeling that you have at least some Saturdays or Sundays off each month. Maybe it\'s because I don\'t know how much time 1 trip takes, but still...:)
If that would be the case, I really can\'t see anymore what so many people complain about.;)

[TopBunk]

flya380

A Reserve Period lasts 28 consecutive days. Within that you will get 7 Fixed Days Off (FDO) notified before you start the Reserve Period. They may be a continuous block of 7 days (in LH, I think) or the first 5 days and last 2 days (usually) of the Reserve Period (Shorthaul).

The duties for the other 21 days are notified the evening beforehand and may be:[list=1]
A trip
A Home Standby (HSB) with 2-hour report commitment. The duration of the HSB is wither 8 or 12 hours. Where you do the Standby from is up to you - the golf course works for me, it is the 2-hour to car park that is important.
An Airport Standby (ASB). Shorthaul only, usually from 0600-1200 at LHR.
Short Break (1 day off) or Long Break (2 days off). In the 21 day span you will get a minimum of 1 short and 1 long break.
A miscellaneous day off if they more than enough cover. Unless they tell you it is a Short Break in advance it doesn't count as one
[/list=1]

You can express a preference with Ops for work/no work, short/long trips and they will try to help usually. One trick for Reserve Periods is to get your Sim Checks allocated in them, the day before your check cannot have work assigned on it by Ops, and in effect reduces the 21 available days by 3 (or possibly 4 if recurrent SEP training is also required).

[wiggy]

FlyA380

I fly Long Haul for BA and live on the continent so I have a little experience of the "commuting" problem vs Reserve.

Your 28 days of reserve start with 7 fixed days off, after that you are in the hands of the Company for 21 days. You are now "contactable" by telephone for a couple of hours every evening ( I don't have the rules to hand but 1800 UK time to 2000 UK time rings a bell - pun intended) and you can be assigned a duty the next morning - early, either a trip or Home standby ( the "2 hours to report" sketch).....

Practical problems for the long distance commuter should be obvious - if you are assigned a duty early in the AM ( perhaps being told at 8pm you have an 8 AM report), can you get to LHR in time? Home standbys can run from 6AM - can you be in position to report in 2 hours by that time?

On the subject of the 2 hours to Report sceanario - you can and will get called on the dot of two hours, it's happened to me on several occasions and a lot of the BA guys who commute decent distances by road even have been known to sit in their car, at a motorway services, mobile phone in hand so that they are "legal"...

SO.......somebody asked "please tell me I don't have to sit out reserve duties at LHR" well, if your commuting airline doesn't have any late night flights the answer I'm afraid is, in extremis, "yes".

When I do reserve I usually talk to our ops people and ask to be worked to death, ask to do trips if possible rather than standby, volunteer to do "back to back" trips, so you spend just one night at LHR between trips. I aim to work flat out, as far as legally possible, so that I discharge my obligation to do 80 hours of credit in the 21 days ASAP......

[flyA380]

Thanks Wiggy;) .

I will get in touch with you again, when my search for easy lodging close to or at LHR starts in case of standby or back to back trips.

From where I live, there are daily BA flights to LHR. Can one with a BA badge simply hop on (like at Lufthansa/Alitalia/...)? Or is it not that simple:confused: .
I hope to be adopting BA as my commuting airline...

And just a thought: I checked the BA B777 destinations. By the time I will have been at all US and Gulf destinations - where I have NEVER set foor before - we'll be probably more than a year further. And by then, my seniority should be just high enough to get someting else from time to time:D . Who said life is terrible for a fresh B777 FO? I am looking forward to it:cool:

[Human Factor]

From where I live, there are daily BA flights to LHR. Can one with a BA badge simply hop on (like at Lufthansa/Alitalia/...)? Or is it not that simple.

Sadly not. You don't get staff travel for your first six months.

You can "Interline" up to a point, although I'll leave that to a commuter to explain in detail.

[flyA380]

and AFTER those six months?

[ETOPS]

You can buy unlimited ID90 tickets - all handled via the BA intranet. Access from home if you have a PC/laptop. You get all the login details when you join. Some locost airlines fares are about the same price. I recently flew LGW MAN with JET2 for £9 plus tax!

[Hotel Mode]

Dont think anyones mentioned seeded blind lines that are juist coming in where One trip is bid for at first roster bidding and then rest of roster allocated around at second stage, Its a great way to get days off because they cant give you trips 2 days before or after. I'm bottom of the 74 list and still get more control over my lifestyle than at any previous airline. It also looks like the 777 work will improve as the euro 76's go longhaul and look likely to go to the Gulf and E coast. And in 5 years (which will whizz by) you can change to something different, not many airlines give you that choice.

[flyA380]

HM, the blind lines really do seem interesting. I may want to get me some of those when I actually make it on the line.;)


Something else: I heard somebody say that at BA (the guy did NOT fly there by the way), you cannot handfly unless completely established on final.:uhoh:
I am having a hard time believing that: there must be conditions under which you are allowed to switch AP, AUTO THRUST and FD off early in descent or approach, right?

[ETOPS]

you cannot handfly unless completely established on final.

You will be pleased to hear thats total rubbish. I regularly hand fly the 777 and thoroughly enjoy keeping my handling skills up to date. Visual approaches are allowed and I encourage co-pilots to do the same. The only restriction I place on myself is to maximise use of the autopilot for "busy" departures such as LHR with weather avoidance requirements and approaches under similar conditions (especially if feeling tired).

Flying with a brand new DEP tomorrow - nice to meet some of the new intake....................

[Human Factor]

....you cannot handfly unless completely established on final.

The recommendation is to use common sense. i.e. If it's excessively busy, poor weather, etc. maybe best not to. There are some fleet specific restrictions on use of the autothrottle whilst manual handling (not that I necessarily agree with them) but I would advocate handflying at every opportunity.

[Human Factor]

Believe it or not, it's not permitted to take out the autothrottle on the Airbus or the 777. Mind you, neither have a pitch-power couple (in theory!). :rolleyes:

[flyA380]

You will be pleased to hear thats total rubbish. I regularly hand fly the 777 and thoroughly enjoy keeping my handling skills up to date.

I will go along (and probably fly along one day too) with ETOPS on this ;) .

I fly the Airbus A320 for 5 years (B737 before that) now, and nearly always - weather and cirmustances permitting - with everything switched off during descent/approach to keep my handling abilities as high as possible. (and for the FUN of course!)

A new company, new rules: that is clear and understood, but I am very glad that at BA, this will still be possible. (Though I understand that after 10hrs flight, I will not always be up for it:\ ) Imagine only flying 5 or 6 times a month, and only from 300ft down to the runway. It wouldn't take long to lose your skills that way I think.

I am more and more looking forward to my 777 course.:cool:

Anything else I should know?

[Human Factor]

Take the lunchtime management chats with a pinch of salt! :suspect: :suspect: :suspect: :E

[normal_nigel]

Join BALPA or if already a member get the forms to transfer deatils at your induction.

Don't take any **** from CSD's either.

[maxy101]

That's good advice from N.N.....If you're not careful, you'll get walked over.

[FullWings]

I am more and more looking forward to my 777 course.Good to see it.Anything else I should know?Don't take everything one person says as gospel. We are a very broad church in BA (to continue the ecclesiastical parallel). The job will be as exciting/boring/fulfilling/empty as you make it.

The destinations on the 777 are not as bad as are made out sometimes. OK, if you are very junior you might get more of the East Coast trips but if you are determined to have a good time, you will. There are plenty of amusing/intellectual/fun things to do in YUL, BOS, YYZ, EWR, JFK, etc., especially if you have never been there before. The 'triple' is a very friendly fleet so you can have great times in the most unlikely of places.

When you are junior, a reserve month can be quite exciting as you may be called out to a new destination or to ferry an empty a/c. (The RR powered -LR goes up pretty well in those circumstances!) There is no such thing as an 'average' month: they are all different in some way.

You will meet ex-cadets, ex-RAF, ex-stockbrokers, ex-doctors, etc. In fact, just like any other airline.

You're joining at the bottom but remember it gets better from here on in...

Enjoy.

[Big Kahuna Burger]

"It gets better from here on in..."


Not strictly true.

It will until the retirement legislation comes into effect in Oct 06 and then progression and therefore lifestyle improvement will completely stagnate

[Scottie]

BKB, but it's not as if your 2 ic of a garbage truck is it? :rolleyes:

Life is what you make it :}

[flyA380]

Ok guys, thanks for all the info.
My cautiously posted topic has drawn so many nice answers and examples from you all, that I do seem to have a good idea of the life a junior FO in BA on longhaul might have.:ok:

Just for the record: I am on the believers side. For any given job, it will be possible to find negative stuff, but come on: ain't there so much more positive things about being a pilot, and certainly at an airline like BA? The future will not be perfect, but definitely bright and I plan to be in the light with a smile on my face.

:D ;) :cool: flyA380

PS: Aircrafts are full, a pilot shortage is glooming at the horizon and the industry is gearing up to a great 2006. Good!
And in aviation it is impossible to say intelligent things about this bussiness 10 years from now. Is captaincy something you won't get before another 20 years? Will you be stuck on your aircraft forever at the same place? Will BA buy A380's sometime? NOBODY KNOWS!
So let's not be bothered with it and enjoy our great profession.

[The Greaser]

Nice to hear an optimistic view of the profession for a change, one which I share. See you on the 777 soon.

[normal_nigel]

The trouble with a lot of the BA moaning that goes on is that a sizeable number of BA pilots have never worked for any other airline. Therefore they have a very strange attitude as to what they think BA owes them.

A reality check into the real world not wrapped up in cotton wool would do some good. The others that wind me up are the ones who moan about time away from home. We are pilots for Christ sake.If you want to be at home every night change jobs.

That's not to say BA doesn't have its issues but compared to most outfits its the dogs ********. Its just that from the inside and with nothing to compare it to people can get a bit precious.

Good luck to all those joining. If you have come from Charter/LoCo/cowboy outfit you will think you will love it because lets be honest chaps....

Its still the place to be ahead, still of Virgin, who I would say come in a comfortable second.

Anyone who says they don't want to work for either of them has either failed selection or doesn't quite get it

[ATIS]

Normal Nigel,

I don't wanna work for either of them!!!!!

And if I had to choose it would defin be Virgin. Sorry but they are in a different class to BA. I have paxed in both many times, Virgin makes the experience enjoyable rather than a drag.

I'm at a charter outfit. I targeted the charters so I can have the best of both worlds, short and long haul. (Prob like the good old days at BA with 757/767 ops. Prob not long to go before they are finally phased out)

My long haul trips will be of a decent duration. There are some bullets and there are also some week long stays cos thats the only flight of the week. Sadly minimum rest seems the norm now at BA and VS, hence no interest in being constantly knackered.

So you see there are some peeps out here who do look beyond BA and VS. and who can also claim to be sane.

See you by the pool.

[normal_nigel]

ATIS

Well if you also like night Larnaca's and back most weeks then fair enough.

Also judging an airline as an employer by how they are as a passenger is not really relevent. the fact is there is fence looking over both ways between BA and VS but more Red to Blue.

I'm sure many charter airlines are good to work for but they are all **** to fly on, however much they dress it up.

Shellsuits rule.


One point of order.

(Prob like the good old days at BA with 757/767 ops. Prob not long to go before they are finally phased out

That would be the same 767 fleet curently going through a cabin refit and then converting 4 more to LH config with the real prospect of the last 3 following?

NN

[ATIS]

True you can't judge an employer by the way that the pax are treated.

I'm sure BA is great to work for. ££££££££'s being one point. However you can't help feeling concerned with the ever increasing amount of negative comments that arise from BA.

One such long haul flight that I took pre 9/11 was a big eye opener.

Thought I'd pay a visit to 747 flightdeck. First I asked the cabin crew who were chilling in the galley. One instantly replied by "Why do you wanna go up there for, the Cpt is a ****** which resulted in a bundle of laughs by the rest of crew.

I eventually made it up there, and had a pleasant chat with the flight crew. Cpt then leaves the flightdeck for call of nature. Cue slaggin off of Cpt.
F/o obviously had a lot to get off his chest. He told me that he was returning to his previous airline cos he couldn't stand being stranded downroute with so many *******.

Now I know that bloke was 1 of 3000, but it does make you think.

Another previous poster talked about not taking any **** from CSD's.

If thats what the atmosphere is like forget the ££££££'s.

[normal_nigel]

One example is hardly sound foundation to judge a company.

The problems that occur with people are inevitable with a company with over 17000 aircrew.

BA does have its problems. They are not all unique to BA but may be magnified due to the size.

99% of the time working at BA is a very pleasant way to spend your working life with the best salaries and best rostering system in the UK and one of the best in world aviation.

Certainly the choice (with a bit of seniority) is unrivalled or so I'm informed. Also a "free" bid and the chance to change aircraft every 4 years is also a great benefit.

Despite the pension and time to command (potentially worse post 2006) BA still has more to offer than most.

What we need to do is keep plugging away at improving the niggles.

[Cuban_8]

ATIS et al,

As someone who has recently jumped ship from a rather large UK charter outfit to Big Airways, I’m perhaps in a more appropriate position to comment than some.

I too heard many of the rumours and BA bashing comments before joining, and I have to say, many of them made me think twice! However, with 20/20 hindsight, I cannot agree more with n_n's post that most of the bitching emanates from those who know of nothing else outside BA.

I'm not suggesting BA is prefect for one moment, and there are elements of my previous company that I still prefer. For one, I don't think that the actual flying is quite as much fun - although the destinations are just as varied (Eurofleet LHR anyway).

However, all in all, I don't think there is a comparison. When I moved, my pay increased substantially, I get more leave, more days off, MUCH better roster stability (and my previous package was at least charter industry average). And all this considering that I’m the lowest of the low here at the moment (well, nearly).

Cabin crew too, I have to say, have totally defied the mould so far for me. I find them generally more friendly than in the charter world, and GENERALLY have a bit more about them! Yes, they can be rather militant in terms of their work practices, but that is more the fault of the system in my opinion. And just to round it off, the guy's I sit next to are a great bunch (in 99% of cases anyway!).

There are definitely elements of BA that would make it unsuitable for some. But for those that are interested, please take a lot of what you read here with a pinch of salt and do some thorough research of the facts!

Regards,

C_8

[Jet A1]

All well and good slating that charter guys but I see BA are doing some nasty night flights ex LGW, which is bad enough, but long night flights on a B737 -- Lovely !

[pseulight]

"for example, if you join on the 777, your basic in year 1 will be £42841. Your pensionable (which BAMPS is based upon) is £32130"

Slightly old quote, but I was wondering: is "basic" the same as "gross yearly income"?
Reason being that I (surprisingly) make considerably more at my local LoCo (okay, I'm a captain).
What am I missing here? Is there a steep pay increase after a few years or an hourly bonus?

I'm a BA DEP applicant and I'm trying to paint myself a complete picture.

Thanx for any info!

[expedite_climb]

New joiner (Longhaul) can expect ~£57000. On a full months flying expect to take home over £3600. Expect that to go up by £200 a month every year (assuming BALPA negotiate a 2.5% rise on top of the agreed payscales).

[Human Factor]

psuelight,

The £42841 is your gross basic pay (before tax). On top of that you will get flight pay (£9 per flying hour) and Time Away From Base pay (£2.64 per hour away from base). Expect around £1200 per month net for a full month's work on the 777.

In practice, your allowances are about the same size as your monthly tax bill therefore your take home will be about the size of your gross basic (give or take). So expect to see about £3600 per month in your bank account.

HF

[777aviator]

Having been on the triple for a while (years) I would offer the following personal opinions on the company and fleet,

great airplane
great cabin crew, (assuming you treat them as respected professional colleagues)
great flightcrew
hard work regardless of position on list
and in the 2 'private life' issues that i have endured the company management have been understanding,supportive and all i could have hoped for,

welcome to all newcomers - its a fantastic place to be :D

[pseulight]

Thanks a lot guys,

that sounds more like what I was expecting.

As a juniorish 38ish 737NG captain I make about €84000 gross, about €3700/2500GBp. net monthly (excluding 1-8% profitsharing and 8% gross vacation pay).
So moving to a BA Triple7 would definitely be survivable financially, any ideas about BA B737 pay?

Thanx a lot and sorry for the ignorance,
any other comments appreciated.

[Human Factor]

737 pay is a couple of grand per year less, can't remember how much exactly. Allowances will be marginally less as well but not by much. You should see over £3000 per month take home.

[airfoil404]

Are BA recruiting pilots at the time being?

Thanks
AF 404

[Jelly Doughnut]

Human Factor, not sure where you got that info from. I joined in January on 737 and am on exactly the same package as the guys who joined the same day and went to LHR/Airbus :ok:

[Human Factor]

Jelly, I looked at my payslips. I think we're at cross purposes. Longhaul pay (747,777) is a couple of grand a year more than shorthaul pay (A320, 737). 7576 is somewhere between the two. Otherwise the deal (pensionable pay, etc.) is the same in all other respects. In times gone by, a LGW 737 pilot would have been paid significantly less than a Mainline shorthaul pilot. Now it's the same deal apart from the pay cap after 10/16 (I think) years.

[Jelly Doughnut]

HF
You are right, the annual increase is greater for longhaul than for shorthaul. But paypoint ONE salary is the same for all fleets ;)

[flyA380]

AF 404

www.britishairwaysjobs.com (http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com)

click on current vacancies

enter in the lowest search bar: 'pilots'

... and there is the DEP vacancy. Open till august 31st: they are expecting a LOT of people. Good luck!:ok:

Now please read my cautious question (5 replies up): anyone anything on the accomodation problem during BA training? (6 weeks of lodging needed for most people in training)

And who is starting middle of September on 777 too?

[FlyingTom]

Gatwick only get 2 weeks leave for the first 3 leave periods whereas Heathrow get 3 weeks. No one seems to mention this but it equates to a £1700 pay cut in real terms. Not bitter but not fair either.

[airfoil404]

Many thanks FlyA380!

I'm a f/o with over 6000 hrs on the 737. I'd be interested in BA however on their website they fail to give out details about terms & conditions. Could anyone help pls?


Thanks
AF404

[Human Factor]

Plenty of threads on here which cover your query. I'll let someone else post the links. However to summarise, pay is good and on a par with the European majors.

The pension for new joiners is poor, verging on pathetic.

On shorthaul, you will work 750-800 hours per year, depending which fleet you are on.

On longhaul, you are contracted for 900 hours per year which many people achieve.

All fleets, apart from 737 LGW, use Bidline which is a seniority based system. ie. The most senior guy does as he wants, the most junior does as he's told. As a junior, you will get a Blind Line (which means effectively that you are rostered) and will work most (all) weekends. On shorthaul, you will probably do long tours. On longhaul, you will do short two-crew trips.

Command time for a new joiner is 12-13 years for LGW shorthaul, 14-15 years for LHR shorthaul, 19+ for LHR longhaul.

[Scottie]

Fly A380 wrote:

... and there is the DEP vacancy. Open till august 31st: they are expecting a LOT of people. Good luck!

Why would they be expecting a lot of people? Recruitment has been going on for what 8 months now for 200 vacancies?

Seems to me people aren't knocking the door down trying to get in!

[Bengerman]

Scottie,

your point being??

[Jet A1]

...It's not all its cracked up to be !!! Perhaps !?!?

[Slim20]

Perhaps its to do with the basic requirement of red cape, ability to fly, a girlfriend who is a reporter for a major city newspaper and the propensity to wear underpants outside your spandex bodysuit?

Or maybe its the number of people put off by having to undergo the most pointlessly tedious and unnecessarily comprehensive selection process in the industry?

Or maybe its the enormous numbers of people who fail said process?:{ :{ :{

[flyA380]

Don't be silly guys: there still are loads of people trying to get in.
I believe everybody I know is applying, and from other sides I hear the exact same thing. BA has enough applicants, that's for sure... Whatever negative stuff some people keep on posting.

It's just that the selection criteria are very tough: a low number of applicants will make it through the first day of selections. In my case it was 2 out of twelve...
It is however BA's perogative to set whatever standard or profile they wish for new entrants - although it may seem somewhat overdone, all right.

Anyways: this discussion is not really all that relevant for the topic, is it?:E

By the way: courses are planned all through next year (2006).
A small hold pool is seeing the light now, applicants get courses in November at the earliest. (which is still very fast)
Lots of people ARE getting in and your seniority will thus improve lightly already in the course of next year if you join now.

Lighten up :ok: